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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 13 2013 17:19 Xiphias wrote: - 7 gas per trip, and depleted gas gives one gas per trip (if we can make it work in the editor). I think there is a field for this in the resource behavior, which allows you to adjust amount of mining after depletion. Should be pretty easy.  | ||
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Project:WayOfFreedom
Czech Republic11 Posts
On May 13 2013 20:18 Hider wrote: You can do that in Sc2 as well..... Just not very efficient. Can you shut down detectors in SC2? Can you shut down all detectors and snipe all mobile detectors in SC2? Nope. That whole idea is sickly wrong design right from start. You can give that ability on science vesel, so you will combine it with ghosts, but definetly not ghost itself. After all, ghost is - low tier and therefore fast to access, can cloak itself(and now without upgrade), and moreover with snipe, its not "wasted supply"so giving it this ability is not good in my opinion. PS: Xiphias(Next post) - yeah, thats exactly it. Basicaly it would be better "corsair DT" where both roles are maintained by one unit which then you would become quite massable (in all matchups but TvT, as snipe > overseer and scan + ghost weapon > obs. But I still believe that giving ability on Science Vessel would be nice... however, Science vessel now have 3 abilities, all slots are used, so it is impossible. Another solution: Shutdown lasts around 45~60 seconds, but costs at least above 50% of energy, so it can be used only once per ghost and if ghost is not full energy, you should have no chance to attack 'well defended base' sucessfully. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On May 13 2013 21:39 Project:WayOfFreedom wrote: Can you shut down detectors in SC2? Can you shut down all detectors and snipe all mobile detectors in SC2? Nope. That whole idea is sickly wrong design right from start. You can give that ability on science vesel, so you will combine it with ghosts, but definetly not ghost itself. After all, ghost is - low tier and therefore fast to access, can cloak itself(and now without upgrade), and moreover with snipe, its not "wasted supply"so giving it this ability is not good in my opinion. PS: Xiphias(Next post) - yeah, thats exactly it. Basicaly it would be better "corsair DT" where both roles are maintained by one unit which then you would become quite massable (in all matchups but TvT, as snipe > overseer and scan + ghost weapon > obs. But I still believe that giving ability on Science Vessel would be nice... however, Science vessel now have 3 abilities, all slots are used, so it is impossible. Another solution: Shutdown lasts around 45~60 seconds, but costs at least above 50% of energy, so it can be used only once per ghost and if ghost is not full energy, you should have no chance to attack 'well defended base' sucessfully. I wasn't responding to you. Ghost dropping is still inefficient whether the opponent has defense up or not. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On May 13 2013 21:39 Project:WayOfFreedom wrote: Another solution: Shutdown lasts around 45~60 seconds, but costs at least above 50% of energy, so it can be used only once per ghost and if ghost is not full energy, you should have no chance to attack 'well defended base' sucessfully. Oh... forgot to mention that. Shutdown will not be permanent, no sir. I don't think that was ever the intention (tbh this was dec's idea, but I don't think he wanted this to be permanent as well...). It will shutdown temporarly for some time (maybe 20-30 sec). | ||
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Project:WayOfFreedom
Czech Republic11 Posts
On May 13 2013 23:37 Xiphias wrote: Oh... forgot to mention that. Shutdown will not be permanent, no sir. I don't think that was ever the intention (tbh this was dec's idea, but I don't think he wanted this to be permanent as well...). It will shutdown temporarly for some time (maybe 20-30 sec). Don't be scared, we all knew what you meant. Permanent shutdown would be same as 1 shotting building, leaving destructive rocks. I believe everyone realised that(Imagine casting that on Nexus). What I meant was to make ability LONGER duration than you probably meant, while increase energy cost massively. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
My proposal to "fix" Terran air Question number one: What makes an air unit exciting and interesting? - Mobility - The potential to snipe stuff - The potential for hit-and-run attacks - Fragile (It can die any second be careful OMG! He escaped!) In this regard, I do think that the Banshee is awesome. It has a well defined role, feels great and is exciting to both watch and play with. It is useful in all match-ups, in many situations and provides high entertainment. Viking has never been awesome. Neither in SC2 or Starbow. Despite all wacky changes I have made to it in the past. Why? It has no potential for awesomeness because it has none of the above features. Look at Mutalisks, Corsairs, Wraiths, Scourges, Dropships and even Banshees. They are great units in terms of excitement, both for the spectators and the players. Question number two: What does Terran air and anti-air need? (Or rather, what does Terran have in BW/SC2?) - Some kind of air-to-ground unit. (Banshee/Wraith) - Some kind of air-to-air-anti-air attack. (Wraith/Viking) - Some kind of ground-to-air-anti-air attack. (Goliath/Marine/Thor) - Some way to deal with masses of air units. (Valkyre/Thor) If Starbow shall follow this reciepe, it is important that Terran has units/methods that fall into these categories. This is my proposal for an easier fix to Terran air, both in terms of adding excitement to the game and fullfilling the "needs" of Terran air and anti air. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3jSeAMJ.jpg) Banshee can remain roughly as it is - high air-to-ground damage, quite fast, cloak, require tech lab etc. Maybe can it's micro potential be improved. Wraiths need to be a little bit different to fit into Starbow. Details: >>>+ Show Spoiler + - Costs 125/75 - Ca 100 HP - Move speed 3.75 (Same as Mutalisks) - "Moving shot-micro" - Ground damage: 6 - Air damage: 2x6 (Maybe special bonus vs armored or light if needed!) - NO CLOAK! - Can upgrade Hellfire Missiles ability - They work like Hunter seeker missiles but only vs air units. Maybe 80 dmg vs target enemy air unit and 40 splash dmg vs nearby air units. Each Wraith can only fire two missiles before they are depleted. (Just as Spider mines.) Maybe range 8 or 9 on the missiles..? Note: All numbers are just examples. Ok. What would this achieve? All "areas" of Terran anti air, as listed above, would be covered. Ground to air attack units (Marines/Goliath) Air to ground attack unit (Banshee..) Air to air attack unit (Wraith) A way to deal with masses of air units (Wraith with Hellfire Missile... And Irradiate!) Usefulness + Show Spoiler + Banshees will still be useful to both harass and as a part of the army, due to it's strong air to ground attack and cloak. Wraiths will be useful for scouting, to chase away enemy Dropships/Warp Prisms, hit-and-run attacks at lighter targets, harass, pure air control and to snipe important enemy air units. (Both via their normal anti-air attack and via Hellfire Missiles.) Combat utility + Show Spoiler + There will be no need for a Thor/Valkyre-type-of-unit if the Wraith can deal with masses of air units, via their sophisticated Hellfire Missiles. Those missiles might add an extra element to ALL air to air combats, since they will require more micro and control. When shall the Missiles be used? Where? Is it worth to "waste" them right now? Maybe will air combat be less blob vs blob now, but rather about flanking, pre-combat sneak attacks, splitting etc, from both players. Especially in TvT. All of a sudden, the player with most Wraiths will not win the air to air combat! Rather the player with best control will win, even if he has fewer Wraiths than his opponent. Excitement + Show Spoiler + Now we truly get "the best parts" of SC2 and BW Terran air into the game - Banshee, Wraith and a modified version of Hunter Seeker missile. All of these units create some very exciting moments. Imagine all micro players will be able to do with the Wraith, compared to the LACK of micro the Viking suffers from. (Remember the Wraith dances from BW?) Imagine the nerd chills that will happen when the Wraiths launches Hellfire Missiles at the enemy Vipers.. There is a short window of time where the Viper will be able to cast Dark Swarm! Or Arbiters to cast Stasis.. or Vessels to use Nerve Jammer.. Or Medic to cover the Vessel with Matrix before the missiles hit and everything explodes! BOOOOOMshakaram! Balance + Show Spoiler + The tech tree of Terran will remain quite familiar, so I do not think this would destroy any match-up. Remember that Wraiths do NOT have cloak. So Terran can NOT get an entirely cloaked air army. Getting a Banshee will be the more cost efficent air to ground option. But as usual, exact stats of both the Wraith and the Hellfire Missile need to be determined. Maybe can enemy units escape from the Missiles before they hit? Maybe it shall deal friendly fire? Maybe shall there be a cooldown, so Wraiths are encouraged to launch their first volley of missiles, back away, come back 15 seconds later, launch their next volley.. Furthermore, shall the Wraith and the Hellfire Missile have damage bonus vs a certain armor type? Or can it just have a flat damage vs everything? Do Wraiths and Banshees overlap? + Show Spoiler + The only way they currently overlap is due to the air-to-ground attack. But I do not think that is too much of a problem, just as Scout/Nullifier/Arbiter air to ground attacks are not a problem, in terms of overlapping. Wraiths and Banshees will feel different in so many other ways, plus their air-to-ground attacks are different from each other. There are many situations where one is useful, and the other is not. And vice versa. But it is true that both will have potential to harass.(Which I think is good.) Additional thoughts: + Show Spoiler + Ths is easy to fix in the editor and implement into the game. People will probably be familiar with both the Banshee and the Wraith, since they stay quite true to their orginial versions in SC2 and BW. But as usual, I will ponder more about this to see if I find any flaws in the concept. Please do so you too. At this point, we need to find a concept that is solid enough in theory, so it is worth to try it in reality. Another "solution" can be to skip the Hellfire Missiles completely. Instead Wraiths can upgrade a splash attack vs air that makes the normal attack deal dmg in a radius. Just to give Terran a way to deal with clusters of air units. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
So, first of all, here is one idea for a harassheavy Wraith with a similar concept to yours: Note that this unit for all of of it's weapons (missile attack, longrange AtG untargeted contact missile, bomb/mine) uses charges that get refilled when flying over a certain building. So, I don't think that this unit fits exactly into Starbow/Starcraft and doesn't fullfill things like the AtA that you want from the Wraith, but certain themes/abilities could be nice. I think the idea of air units with charges that get refilled could be interesting for all Terran air units. The Dropship speed booster could be a X charge "fuel ability" (and gives you the decision to boost from 2.25 to 5.25speed for 7seconds, or 3times to 3.25speed), certain spells of the science vessel could work with charges instead of energy (e.g. 1charge irradiate, which also prevents spamming of irradiate in the lategame). The BC could get a powerful 1charge ability instead of "just being a bigass unit with a bigass canon (that you will also just use once)". The banshee could have a charged cloak or boost or bomb or splash ground ability. And the armory/ebay could get an "aura" (maybe with an upgrade, maybe with an upgrade that you need for any armory/ebay that you want to have this ability) to recharge 1charge on one unit within a certain range every X seconds. And the reloading of charges could also work on medics and vultures. So, I can't say how such a concept would work out in a game, but for example with attack abilities on harass units (like the shown missile/bomb), it could be very interesting as the user of such would try to get into a base, do damage, get out and fly home to recharge as often as possible. This could have the effects a) that such a tech opening may pay off very fast (concentrated damage) b) not a gameender if the opponent is underprepared (it only has a few charges, then it is likely to go home); early AtA is not as necessary c) very skillintense (when do I use those abilities) d) you might want to hold "reload buildings" with close proximity to the opponent to be able to reload there and therefore enforce positional and spread out play. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
I'd still feel like Banshee can be removed (or it could be slightly redesigned to make it stand out more from the Wraith). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
The wraiths main focus should be anti-air (like the viking) but it can harass once the air threat is over (like the viking.. ) but it's just much better design wise than the viking. I'm excited to get Dec's view on this. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
In SC2 the Viking was the tech that was forced whenever Collosus*, Brood Lords or even Battlecruisers showed up. It's design is simple but perfect for the task which is why it have never needed changes. It got busty damage so it isn't as affected by a Upgrade disadvantage vs collosus, its range and speed always securing advantage vs Battlecruisers and Brood Lords. Its weakness vs ground is also part of the Strength in the design as it forces the user to be mindful when making them. How many do you need? 4 or 8? How much is he commiting to collosus? Hmm, better go scout. With Starbow through 2 of the units mentioning here are gone and their replacements are either not eligiable for the Vikings attack(Reaver) or not worth the effort at this time(the current Guardian). And Goliath does an alright Job keeping BCs at bay. It is therefore no surprise that the Viking is in a loss of role. The reason i am talking about this is because there might be a time where we would wanna buff the capital ships to the point whre they are actually worth using. To my knowlegde the Guardian is in a quite bad state and really underused for example. We would want to at least have a unit ready for Terran to be the "tech to be forced" when capital ships show up. The wraith could fall into the same role but it needs to be capeable of holding it should that time for a capital ship buff come. With this design in mind i have a minor but drastic change in mind. + Show Spoiler + - Costs 125/75 - Ca 100 HP - Move speed 3.75 (Same as Mutalisks) - "Moving shot-micro" - Ground damage: 6 - Air damage: 2x6 (Maybe special bonus vs armored or light if needed!) - NO CLOAK! - Can upgrade Hellfire Missiles ability - They work like Hunter seeker missiles but only vs Mechanical units. Maybe 80 dmg vs target enemy Mechanical unit and 40 splash dmg vs nearby units(Splash should maybe be removed). Each Wraith can only fire two missiles before they are depleted. (Just as Spider mines.) Maybe range 8 or 9 on the missiles..? It sounds drastic but the intentions are actually quite clear. The main point is allow this new Wraith to fight reavers real well. While Reavers will still be this "capital tech" that cannot be beaten by Bio, at least Bio will have some higher tech to counter it with and thus bring more variety to the matchup. I am concerned with what it could do to Mech. It could very well be what makes Mech too strong vs Protoss, but Zealot Archon is still a thing, and trying to hit Blink stalkers with this would be rather futile. A Solotion if this sort of ability doesn't work could be to move this ability ability to the Banshee and make it energy based, making feedback and EMP a strong counter. As for TVT it will certain make a havoc to Tank lines but i have seen Tank Wars in Starbow and frankly they can be as lame in here as they are in SC2, even if it is quite Microbased. So right now there is value to lose here but not that much. So yea that is my thoughts on the matter. *Yes i know Collosus doesn't fit the entire description for capital ship but it works for this example. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Banshee >>>+ Show Spoiler + - More expensive - More beefy - Slower - MUCH Higher DPS vs ground targets. - Can cloak What can the Banshee do, that the Wraith can not? - Destroy buildings and armored ground targets in a reasonable amount of time. - Can win the game alone with Cloak. <--- (Problematic?) - Is more useful in the main army, in terms of cost efficent, since even 1 Banshee can kill Lurkers, Siege tanks etc.. What areas can be improved to make it stand out more from the Wraith? - Longer attack range (Maybe from an upgrade? Would also help to get around static defence better) - Specalized damage (For example extra dmg vs armored, or splash damage?) - Add "Air mines" to the Banshee. - Rework Cloak. (I know Dec and Xiphias are looking at an alternative version.) Please bring more thoughts into it! Maybe there is something easy that can be done that makes the Banshee/Wraith feel more different. @Sumadin When I identify or categorize traits of units, and tries to understand what makes units interesting, it does not mean that I hold some kind of truth on the matter. I have much more to learn and understand. Besides, awesomeness is subjective. What I identify as "fun" stuff is not fun stuff for everyone. I did not include capital ships into my last post, and maybe I should have been more clear about that. But you are indeed correct that the "mind game" of Starcraft is sometimes forgotten. The fact that certain units can force certain reactions from the enemy player. It is an important "battle of decisions" that goes on in every game, where players decide HOW many units to get of a certain kind. For example Terran goes Wraiths vs Zerg, which forces Hydras, and then Terran goes bio, Zerg gets too few Lurkers and thereby Bio kills the Hydras. (Very simply put, of course ^^) But I do not see how that could not work with my suggested Wraith? Protoss goes Carriers - it forces Goliaths / Wraiths with Hellfire Missile / Ghost with Lockdown? Terran goes Battlecruisers - it forces Goliaths / Wraiths with Hellfire Missile / Ghost with Lockdown? Zerg goes Guardian/Devourer - it forces Goliath / Wraith with Hellfire Missile / Vessels with Irradiate? In fact, most units in the game forces macro - reactions from the opponent? Why would the Hellfire Missiles need to work vs ANY mechanical unit, even ground units? That sounds like it can become very broken.. especially if it is on such a mobile unit like the Wraith. Ps. I think the BC can be improved in the design as well. It has always been quite lame and underused. Ps2. Ghosts are currently being reworked. Maybe it ends up being a unit that can deal with Reavers and break Tank-lines. (More useful and cheap nuke, different Lockdown/Snipe? ) | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Degenerative mineral field! You already understand what I mean. This "mineral field", it loses resources slowly, until the exhaustion of the mineral field. You can send harvests to speed up the process of decay. These degenerative minerals, can create interesting situations in early, mid and late game (now exhausted, many paths open to hit the players unaware of the danger). Degenerative mineral field contains 900 resource (decreases by 1 per second mineral). The decay process begins with the start of the match. A harvester extracts 2 minerals per second. You can be sent to multiple harvesters. Thanks for reading, this could help improve Starbow game play ^^ | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
- More expensive - More beefy - Slower - MUCH Higher DPS vs ground targets. - Can cloak What can the Banshee do, that the Wraith can not? - Destroy buildings and armored ground targets in a reasonable amount of time. - Can win the game alone with Cloak. <--- (Problematic?) - Is more useful in the main army, in terms of cost efficent, since even 1 Banshee can kill Lurkers, Siege tanks etc.. What areas can be improved to make it stand out more from the Wraith? - Longer attack range (Maybe from an upgrade? Would also help to get around static defence better) - Specalized damage (For example extra dmg vs armored, or splash damage?) - Add "Air mines" to the Banshee. - Rework Cloak. (I know Dec and Xiphias are looking at an alternative version.) Please bring more thoughts into it! Maybe there is something easy that can be done that makes the Banshee/Wraith feel more different. I think the Wraith with its moving shot gives it A) The same effect as a longer range would have. B) The same effect as giving it more HP as it can take less damage in the proces. Thus there really is no difference between a micro'ed Wraith and a Banshee. I think one way to make them different is to make Banshee the anti-armored air unit and Wraith the anti-light unit. Thus Wraith will be the unit you want to counter mass mutas and harass workers with. Banshee on the other hand will be better vs Goliaths (though micro'ed goliaths will still beat banshees due to their longer range) and stalkers. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
If that is combined with a longer range upgrade (lets say range 7), the Banshee will be much bettar at finding angles/windows in the enemy base and much better at avoiding static defence. In other word, a longer range Banshee will be a viable harassment unit throughout the game. Plus it will even be good as a combat unit! (But requires good control, attack, back away, attack etc) | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
You don't need to tell me how broken my Hellfire missiles could be, I do know. It is similar to an ability i suggested for the vikings during the HOTS beta so i have put a fair share of thoughts into it. Even in SC2 tankwars are lame, but it was a time in beta where Tempests were so strong that even Vikings were having trouples so it was for an extra boost. My "Haywire missiles" worked more like Snipe through but only dealt 35 damage(Enough to 3 shot immortal shields, or 5 shot a tank) with a cooldown of course. My main concern with putting Hellfire missiles on Banshees for energy(and thus a Cloaktimer tradeoff) is that it overlaps with Yamato even if that version would be much easier to counter. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On May 14 2013 03:53 Kabel wrote: But nothing prevents the Banshee from also getting moving shot, so it becomes more microable. If that is combined with a longer range upgrade (lets say range 7), the Banshee will be much bettar at finding angles/windows in the enemy base and much better at avoiding static defence. In other word, a longer range Banshee will be a viable harassment unit throughout the game. Plus it will even be good as a combat unit! (But requires good control, attack, back away, attack etc) I think a range 5-6 Wraith with moving shot will feel a lot like range 7 banshee without moving shot. Range 7 Banshee with moving shot will probably be imba. So I don't feel there is any real way to balance those numbers out. Rather why not just make banshee the anti armored unit with Wraiths as the anti light unit. That will make banshee work better in battles (as intended). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On May 14 2013 05:33 Xiphias wrote: Goliath is the anti-armoured. You want banshee to shoot air? Banshee is anti armored anti ground only. Wraith is anti light both in terms of anti-air and vs ground. | ||
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