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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On May 15 2013 01:42 Xiphias wrote: I think it can be done around this weekend actually, but I won't promise anything since Dec has to handle most of the work. I am learning the editor though  Edit: Yey! I'm a hydralisk now! Wait TL has portraits................... MIND = BLOWN. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
I also don't think FB's are the answer to Stalkers, I think it is indeed the Ghost we should be looking at (and maybe the Reaper). If we make Lockdown more spammy but less powerful, it would be easier to hit a number of Stalkers with it. I suggest that it remove the units attack, spells and activated abilities, and cap the movement to a certain amount but not remove it completely (maybe drop any mech unit to Reaver speed). KEEP IT SINGLE TARGET, though. We could also make Lockdown able to target mechanical buildings, so you can shut down photon cannons, missile turrets and OC/Nexus/PF abilities for harassment. This would replace the Psychic Disruption that was suggested. Don't have it affect detection however, that's just not a can of worms we should be opening. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:00 SmileZerg wrote: HideR, I don't see how we can implement your Firebat idea without drastically changing the identity of the Firebat - it would have to be a completely different unit with a different model. I don't think anyone wants to see a sprinting FB outrunning Zerglings with his two little legs in that huge bulky armor. I also don't think FB's are the answer to Stalkers, I think it is indeed the Ghost we should be looking at (and maybe the Reaper). If we make Lockdown more spammy but less powerful, it would be easier to hit a number of Stalkers with it. I suggest that it remove the units attack, spells and activated abilities, and cap the movement to a certain amount but not remove it completely (maybe drop any mech unit to Reaver speed). KEEP IT SINGLE TARGET, though. We could also make Lockdown able to target mechanical buildings, so you can shut down photon cannons, missile turrets and OC/Nexus/PF abilities for harassment. This would replace the Psychic Disruption that was suggested. Don't have it affect detection however, that's just not a can of worms we should be opening. The firebat in mobile mode is terrrible at killing anything at all. I imagine something like 4 + 1 vs light (with hellion type of shot). This means that you are not using the mobile mode as you are using hellions (or vultures). Mobile mode is there to make you get faster from A to B and when you are there you transform it into immobile firebat. In certain specific situations it may be optimal to use the fastmode with stim to attack an opponent (like if you expect the opponent to run away if you transform into immobile firebats). However, that's not goanna happen a lot and its not goanna be gamechanging in any way. Regarding stalkers? Why are they a problem. According to the unit tester marine + medi do fine vs them. I don't see any reason to change anything signifcantly (125 energy lockdown probably too much though if thats stays as it is). | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:06 Hider wrote: The firebat in mobile mode is terrrible at killing anything at all. I imagine something like 4 + 1 vs light (with hellion type of shot). This means that you are not using the mobile mode as you are using hellions (or vultures). Mobile mode is there to make you get faster from A to B and when you are there you transform it into immobile firebat. In certain specific situations it may be optimal to use the fastmode with stim (like if you expect the opponent to run away if you transform into immobile firebats). However, that's not goanna happen a lot and its not goanna be gamechanging in any way. It's not that I think there's necessarily a problem from a gameplay perspective. It's the flavor, identity and aesthetic that's a problem. You can't just make a unit people are familiar with from both BW and SC2 into this weird waddling speed demon. We would need to change the name and the model into something different - it would no longer look or feel like a Firebat. Regarding stalkers? Why are they a problem. According to the unit tester marine + medi do fine vs them. I don't see any reason to change anything signifcantly (125 energy lockdown probably too much though if thats stays as it is). Well the consensus seemed to be that Stalkers were the reason bio doesn't work versus Protoss, but if that's not the case I will defer to your playing experience. Still, I think the Lockdown changes could make the spell have more utility and more counterplay. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:18 JohnnyZerg wrote: Make a lockdown with less energy cost (75?) and Removing the single target (as hots fungal). Then make the effects of hots seeker missile (unit that is located closer to the target, it is highlighted in red) and after 5 sec if unit not is escape, the missile hits the target activating effects lockdown.In this way the terran should try to aim well (unit), while the opponent must try to move the unit targeted. We already have a similar dynamic with Irradiate and are going to implement this exactly with Reaver Scarabs. The identity of the Ghost should remain as a single-target sniper - Lockdown doesn't need an AoE. 75 energy would be a good change though. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
1) I don't play terran, 2) I have low apm... Needless to say, I do a poor job, but take a look at when I break his third base. I think it can be viable even in this stage (to a certain point in the game) and even better with no research for matrix. I would love to see some 400 apm person do this. http://drop.sc/334731 | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
It's not that I think there's necessarily a problem from a gameplay perspective. It's the flavor, identity and aesthetic that's a problem. You can't just make a unit people are familiar with from both BW and SC2 into this weird waddling speed demon. We would need to change the name and the model into something different - it would no longer look or feel like a Firebat. Too some extent I agree. It probably could confuse some people, and we should be careful about using the same names with units which abilities are completely different, but I don't agree that it completely changes its identity. Rather I would argue that it strenghten its supposed identity as a "mobile" tank. When that is said, I wouldn't mind a name change if that's what is needed to convince you .Furthermore, you also need to remember that we already have crossed the line multiple times with large changes to tempests, ghosts, now viking, Kabel suggested Wraith with seeker missile. I don't think we should bind us self to brood War units, rather I prefer that we prirotizie creativity and changes the old units if we feel it could make a better game. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I have not seen all games yet. But from the games I have seen/remember, I recommend Chrono vs Hider game 2 and 3. The best of five final is recommended too. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On May 15 2013 04:05 Xiphias wrote: Me trying to go bio Vs mech. Keep in mind that 1) I don't play terran, 2) I have low apm... Needless to say, I do a poor job, but take a look at when I break his third base. I think it can be viable even in this stage (to a certain point in the game) and even better with no research for matrix. I would love to see some 400 apm person do this. http://drop.sc/334731 Will watch replay later, but from my small experience with bio, it is definitely viable if your really good. It probably has the higehst skill cap of any game style in HOTS, WOL, Starbow and probably even BW as well. Mech is just a lot easier to play because it is more similar to BW/Sc2. Bio in Starbow is very much different from bio in Sc2. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I have indeed crossed the line many times in the past, when it comes to inventing/reworking units, sometimes behind recognition. I have later on tried to approach the philosophy of easiness and familiarity - if there are tools already in SC2/BW, lets analyze it, understand it, use it and modify it to the point necessary to increase it's potential to be a great game piece. I have tried to keep the game as clean, simple and familiar for new players as possible. (I do not claim that I have succeded at all areas!) But when you mention large changes to the Viking, Ghost and Tempest, what exactly are you referring to? After all, everything in Starbow is quite similar to SC2/BW, mostly with minor modifications or rearrangements? (This does not mean that it MUST be in this way forever though. Xiphias and December will probably do some larger changes in the next patch, for example bringing in a completely new Protoss unit. ) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On May 15 2013 04:23 Kabel wrote: @Hider I have indeed crossed the line many times in the past, when it comes to inventing/reworking units, sometimes behind recognition. I have later on tried to approach the philosophy of easiness and familiarity - if there are tools already in SC2/BW, lets analyze it, understand it, use it and modify it to the point necessary to increase it's potential to be a great game piece. I have tried to keep the game as clean, simple and familiar for new players as possible. (I do not claim that I have succeded at all areas!) But when you mention large changes to the Viking, Ghost and Tempest, what exactly are you referring to? After all, everything in Starbow is quite similar to SC2/BW, mostly with minor modifications or rearrangements? (This does not mean that it MUST be in this way forever though. Xiphias and December will probably do some larger changes in the next patch, for example bringing in a completely new Protoss unit. ) Im talking about the general concept of changing old units, which possible could confuse new players. Regarding vikings, I am talking about Xiphias new concept (which actually is very comparable to my Firebat-idea) But I think making changes to old units are a neccesary part of a new MOD, and IMO the most important thing is that each change is very intuitive to understand. For instance Lockdown doesn't require a rocket science degree in order to understand how to use. But it is the same with my Firebat idea as it IMO is quite obvious how you are going to use the unit. So I definitely agree that you have kept it very simple and clean. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On May 15 2013 04:09 Hider wrote: Too some extent I agree. It probably could confuse some people, and we should be careful about using the same names with units which abilities are completely different, but I don't agree that it completely changes its identity. Rather I would argue that it strenghten its supposed identity as a "mobile" tank. When that is said, I wouldn't mind a name change if that's what is needed to convince you .Furthermore, you also need to remember that we already have crossed the line multiple times with large changes to tempests, ghosts, now viking, Kabel suggested Wraith with seeker missile. I don't think we should bind us self to brood War units, rather I prefer that we prirotizie creativity and changes the old units if we feel it could make a better game. Okay, if we would be changing the name and model then yes, I am more open to the idea. However, I'm still not convinced that it's a necessary or desirable change. I don't know if Firebats need to be extremely fast in order to be properly mobile, and if they did have this mode switching ability it would overlap with dropship afterburner micro. Maybe all we really need is easier access to Dropships from Terran, as you have also suggested. Lower the cost to 50/50 (or 75/50 I think I'd prefer) and maybe lower the build time. Do they require a Tech Lab? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
What exactly do you mean when you say "bio must become more viable/useful in TvT and TvP"? (And with "you" I mean anyone who wanna answear the question.) Personally I mean that the Barrack shall offer something useful in TvT and TvP. Starbow needs to go beyond BW, where all units in the Barrack were completely useless in TvT and TvP after 5-6 minutes into the game. I do NOT mean that only masses of pure bio units shall be able to beat P or T. I have never liked that extremely divided tech tree: Terran "must" either go mass Bio or mass Mech. (Bio + Mech has traditionally mostly been viable in TvZ?) Instead I want each building to offer something useful, and it is up to the player to combine units from Barracks, Factories and Starport in order to beat the opponent. Preferably in all match-ups. When we know what we are trying to achieve, then it might be easier to find appropriate solutions. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On May 15 2013 05:05 SmileZerg wrote: Okay, if we would be changing the name and model then yes, I am more open to the idea. However, I'm still not convinced that it's a necessary or desirable change. I don't know if Firebats need to be extremely fast in order to be properly mobile, and if they did have this mode switching ability it would overlap with dropship afterburner micro. Maybe all we really need is easier access to Dropships from Terran, as you have also suggested. Lower the cost to 50/50 (or 75/50 I think I'd prefer) and maybe lower the build time. Do they require a Tech Lab? My biggest beef with Firebat isn't necceasrily just mobility, but instead that I don't like that there is no optimal way to use it or play against it. It feels like I am supposed to "a-move" the unit, and that the oppoennt is supposed to a-move against it as well. That means it is just incredibly boring. However, if we just made it a slower unit with more HP without any transformation it wouldn't really be viable at all as it would never be in the front of the bio army and take out all mobilty of the bio force (that is supposed to be its strenght). You do bring up a good point though; could that type of Firebat (slow, more buffy but with no transformation) work with dropships (simiarly to how a reaper works)? I would be inclined to say yes if I felt like bio was too easy to use atm., but right now Bio has a ridiclously high skill cap and I think if it becomes necceasry to use the dropship to transport Firebats, noone will get them besides 400 APM koreans. I think the transformation thing is slightly easier to use than dropships and in some situations you may find your self with no dropships which means you can't really move around with the slower Firebats efficiently. I rather have that you can always use it in the intended way. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Why my suggested Wraith is not good for the game, and why the Viking might be good for the game, after all: >>>+ Show Spoiler + TvT is very action packed and fun. Why is that? The harassing air units have faster speed than the defending anti-air units. Dropship + Banshees are faster than the Viking/Goliath/Turrets. IF the Viking would have been faster than the Dropship + Banshee, it would be very easy to deny all harassment. (Or if the Wraith was in the game.) In this case, despite the Wraith might be a "funnier" unit in itself, it would bring unintended consequenses to the game and actually have a negative impact on the gameplay! In the same way, the Viking is not super fun, but it still contributes to great gameplay. The same scenario is true in TvP - Warp Prism harassment is viable throughout the game. In BW, ONE Wraith was enough to stop Protoss from harassing with the Shuttle. Completely. Starbow should promote harassment, skimishes and action, NOT prevent harassment from happening! But what about the Viking? It is so lame in itself! It is a simple unit. In what simple ways can we continue to improve it? One way to make the Viking funnier is to increase it's speed a little bit. NOT to the point where it can outrun Banshees, Dropships or Warp Prism! Just enough to make it able to roam across the map a bit better, without being easy meat for the enemy army. Another way can be to improve it's basic splash attack vs air. I think it is an important feature for air-to-air combat, since it means that MOST Vikings will not auto-win in TvT air combat. Instead the player with best micro, splitting, focus fire etc will win, EVEN if he has less Vikings! (That is not as likely to happen in air combat where there is no splash damage involved.) The main problem with the Viking is vs Zerg air. Scourge and Mutalisks are so much faster, which makes Vikings not able to fight vs them. (Unless T has a critical mass.) In TvZ, the first flock of Mutas always kill the 1-2 Vikings that Terran has. And that just feels very predictable... "Oh.. Now the Vikings will die.. BOOM. Yes. They did nothing and they could not escape. " In TvP, at rare occasions Vikings fight vs Corsairs/Scouts. They can also outrun and chase the Viking. But in that scenario the Viking can "escape" by transforming into ground mode, and is not effected by the Protoss anti-air attacks. (Unless Corsair wastes Graviton beam on them.) It would be cool if Vikings were able to snipe units a bit better, like Vipers, Arbiters and Vessels. But that never seems to happen.. They never get within range to actually target fire them? To sum it up: I do not think the Viking needs to be messed up completely. Or replaced/removed. It just needs some simple tweaking to make it contribute even more to good gameplay. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On May 15 2013 08:41 Kabel wrote: I watched some of the tournament games now and did some analyzing. Why my suggested Wraith is not good for the game, and why the Viking might be good for the game, after all: >>>+ Show Spoiler + TvT is very action packed and fun. Why is that? The harassing air units have faster speed than the defending anti-air units. Dropship + Banshees are faster than the Viking/Goliath/Turrets. IF the Viking would have been faster than the Dropship + Banshee, it would be very easy to deny all harassment. (Or if the Wraith was in the game.) In this case, despite the Wraith might be a "funnier" unit in itself, it would bring unintended consequenses to the game and actually have a negative impact on the gameplay! In the same way, the Viking is not super fun, but it still contributes to great gameplay. The same scenario is true in TvP - Warp Prism harassment is viable throughout the game. In BW, ONE Wraith was enough to stop Protoss from harassing with the Shuttle. Completely. Starbow should promote harassment, skimishes and action, NOT prevent harassment from happening! But what about the Viking? It is so lame in itself! It is a simple unit. In what simple ways can we continue to improve it? One way to make the Viking funnier is to increase it's speed a little bit. NOT to the point where it can outrun Banshees, Dropships or Warp Prism! Just enough to make it able to roam across the map a bit better, without being easy meat for the enemy army. Another way can be to improve it's basic splash attack vs air. I think it is an important feature for air-to-air combat, since it means that MOST Vikings will not auto-win in TvT air combat. Instead the player with best micro, splitting, focus fire etc will win, EVEN if he has less Vikings! (That is not as likely to happen in air combat where there is no splash damage involved.) The main problem with the Viking is vs Zerg air. Scourge and Mutalisks are so much faster, which makes Vikings not able to fight vs them. (Unless T has a critical mass.) In TvZ, the first flock of Mutas always kill the 1-2 Vikings that Terran has. And that just feels very predictable... "Oh.. Now the Vikings will die.. BOOM. Yes. They did nothing and they could not escape. " But I do not think the Viking needs to be messed up completely. Or replaced/removed. It just needs some simple tweaking to make it contribute even more to good gameplay. I kinda agree, but that is why I believe Wraith should be low DPS vs armored units (and banshee higher DPS vs armored units assuming your suggestion gets implemented). With low DPS to armored you can still use dropships vs a tank army with a couple of wraiths. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The problem is still the speed. If Wraiths can auto-catch Banshees/Dropships/Warp Prisms, harassment will be denied to the point where the opponent feels there is no idea to try to harass vs a superior defence. (Especially if the defence is cheap, highly mobile and will give the opponent no chance of saving his units.) Even if the DPS of the Wraith is low vs air! Just get 2 or 3 Wraiths. Right now Vikings can still catch harassing air units, which we see happen in the VODS posted above. But that is due to quick reactions, good positions of the Vikigns etc, in other words, it is due to the great defensive play from the players! Kinda like a fat slow boss in a video game. The weak player is much faster and can outrun the boss, attack from the sides etc. But if his reactions are too slow, the fat boss will catch him! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
DPS vs air units or ground units? Both The problem is still the speed. If Wraiths can auto-catch Banshees/Dropships/Warp Prisms, harassment will be denied to the point where the opponent feels there is no idea to try to harass vs a superior defence. (Especially if the defence is cheap, highly mobile and will give the opponent no chance of saving his units.) Too some extent maybe, however I don't think its really efficient to get enough Wraiths to cover the whole map. If you have 3-4 Wraiths you will still be very vulernable to drop play I think. Like you can still harass against mutalisks, right? And 3-4 Wraiths will definitely be worse at clearing drops than 10 Mutalisks. Also remember that we can always adjust the movement speed of warp prism/dropships etc., so I don't think Wraiths will create any kind of unfixable problem. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
I'm starting to like the idea of having both the Wraith and the Banshee in the game, and sharing the same Cloak research if we change them to have a short burst cloak. It would be sort of like Marines and Firebats sharing Stim. Two units out of the same production building with different roles but interesting synergy. | ||
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