|
It seems that you want:
1. A viking that is not too good at picking off dropshps.
2. A viking that can pick off high value targets like vipers.
3. A viking that can deal with mass muta.
Now, as far as I can tell, getting 1 AND 2 is impossible, and terran already hass irradiate/goliath to pick off single targets.
The ground viking will not be good vs dropships but excelent vs a flock of mutas (it will do splash dmg)
TvT will be MUCH better since youo now can commit your startport to produce dropships / SV instead of trying to get more vikings than your oppodent. Banshee will still be able to do some A to A dmg, but very little.
TvZ will not be broken (hopefully) by making the viking cost enough gas to the point where you cannot spam both vikings and SV (since this viking is produced from the factory)
We are thinking that this viking should be more beefy, requre tech lab on factory and a starport, and that the transformation upgarde will be at the starport tech-lab.
QXC did an excelent rant about how units need interesting disabilities. (I think it's this one:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxSsD_6CO38
) A viking that can only attack from gorund but is very mobile in air seems to go in line of the interesting disabilities of the lurker and siege tank (instead of broodLords who's disability is "being slow", the same with BC's, Carriers, and reavers....)
|
Good morning.
If I have understood Terran air correctly, as you and December will probably fix it:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Vikings will be built from the Factory. When in ground mode it will attack like a Thor's flak cannon, aka it deals splash damage vs masses of air units. It requires an upgrade from the Starport to allow it to fly. When in air it still has an anti-air attack vs single targets.
Banshees will get an air to air attack.
To me this just feels like a very hard and complicated solution. Exactly what will this fix/improve in the game, that can't be improved by easier methods? Now the familiar dynamics will be kinda.. different. "You can build Banshees to counter the enemy Banshee or chase the enemy Warp Prism."
But hey, as I have said before, if you and Dec envision a lot of advantages with this, and I just can't understand it, then you shall still go for it. Half of all work I did with Starbow was to explain to people why I did the changes I did. (And it really is time consuming and sometimes takes the joy out of making patches.)
I am glad that Starbow is still being improved and worked upon. Otherwise the whole project would stand still, due to my own lack of time. I have four straigth days of evening/night work coming up, and next week I have another exam in school that devours my free time. -_-
|
To clarify: The flying viking will not have an attack at all, but be very mobile. It has to land in order to attack.
They only thing I feel is iffy is the fact that banshee will "counter" banshee... (But goliath/turrets/marines should do a better job at it)
This viking is spesifically design to deal with mutalisks and thus; we won't be soing much of it, but I'm OK with that.
It also makes the terran race unique in being very good at fighting air from ground (this vking + goliath + marines) but poor form air (banshee and eventually Battlecrusers). I like this. Ending up with Viking / Devour (even worse SC2: curropter) / Scout is kinda boring. Each unit is so similar to each other.
@ Nerve jammer.
HideR raised an interteresting concern regarding the Nerve jammer. Late-game TvP, you'll want to make many SV's to protect your tanks with nerve jammers. This gives the vukture a smaller role in TvP late-game as Tank/Goliath/SV becomes the "solve all P porblems" combo. The only downside to this combo is its harass potential. To give vultures back its "tank vs zealots" role we might reduce the radius and maybe even the duration of the nerver jammer.
Keep in mind, however that the scout has a phase missle vs SV's and will be cheaper and get a speed upgrade, so the metagame may solve this one 
|
How will Terran deal with enemy air units on island maps? (Or maps that contain islands.)
How will Terran deal with enemy air units that are above impassible terrain, where neither Goliaths or Vikings can be?
I mean: If T has no strong air-to-air attacker, they will always lose in air to air combats vs P and Z?
@Nerve jammer
Do you plan to rework it? Not make it disable attacks, but as Hider suggested, make it less of a hard counter: Reduce damage, movement speed, attack speed or something else by a high percentage value? (Maybe it is not necessary though.)
|
How will Terran deal with enemy air units on island maps? (Or maps that contain islands.)
How will Terran deal with enemy air units that are above impassible terrain, where neither Goliaths or Vikings can be?
Valid point, but in which specific scenarios is that a concern? Vs Carriers you will use goliaths any way right?
Mutas don't really have a long range so they can't really abuse impassible terrain.
Guardians could maybe abuse it, but Goliaths I think have enough range and enough mobility to deal with them in that regard. Rather I think Guardians (without an AA unit) will make bio play unplayable which is kinda a shame.
So yeh I guess that the removal of an air unit with anti-air probably will have unintended consequences against Guardians.
|
Well the banshee can do something... But I see your concern. The number of senarios, however are few. Irradiate?
Zerg really has the same problem though. How do you deal with carriers protected by corsairs? You don't make mutalisk, you go and kill his main base with ground units.
|
On May 15 2013 20:14 Xiphias wrote:
Well the banshee can do something... But I see your concern. The number of senarios, however are few. Irradiate?
Zerg really has the same problem though. How do you deal with carriers protected by corsairs? You don't make mutalisk, you go and kill his main base with ground units.
Irradiate can't be a viable counter to Guardians. It will require mass SV's which is something we are trying to avoid from happening.
|
Erase? They are slow. I've seen two science vessel killing many guardinas, or at least forcing them into goliath fire.
|
[QUOTE]On May 15 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote:
Erase? They are slow. I've seen two science vessel killing many guardinas, or at least forcing them into goliath fire.[/QUOTE
Yeh mut still eraise requires a lot of irradiates vs a lot of guardians. Science vessels has to long production time to be considered a unit you build as a response to a sudden tech switch from the zerg player.
|
On May 15 2013 22:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote:
Erase? They are slow. I've seen two science vessel killing many guardinas, or at least forcing them into goliath fire. Yeh mut still eraise requires a lot of irradiates vs a lot of guardians. Science vessels has to long production time to be considered a unit you build as a response to a sudden tech switch from the zerg player.
Since when have Greater spire been a tech you could do a "sudden tech switch" to?
The time making it and then morphing the Guardians is enough time to scout/scan/suspect to the point where you would have to be asleep to not realise something is going on.
IMO the SVs should not be the responce unit to Guardian. It should, like the Raven to Brood Lords, be the Unit that you start making once you have used soft counters to hold off the initial assault and you are ready to prepare a full counterattack and you wanna shut down the Zerg air thus taking the game.
|
Isn't Science Vessel a standart part of the TvZ matchup anyways? When they are so good at countering Zerg tech in general there isn't much point in viewing them as a reactionary unit, but a unit you choose to get at a specific timing to counter w/e is preventing you from moving out. This is regardless of you use it to counter Mutalisks, Lurkers, Ultras or Guardians.
Regarding terran air - a ground form "Viking" that deals splash anti air damage but is only mobile in the air. Basically this is a mini thor with the same functionality as a Siege tank. This with work great, especially if we give the Banshee a minor anti air attack to double as an expensive drop interceptor. We might want to mess around with the range though.
One idea I had a while back for Banshees was to make them shorter range with a slightly weaker attack, but cheaper and slightly faster with higher attack speed. Instead of having a range advantage to harass. This gives it a bigger mobility advantage, increasing one of the strong points while making it harder to use. The point of this is to make Banshees better as a small taskforce and worse at bolstering the main army - A faster short range banshee would rather snipe important workers, buildings or tech units than moving with the main army.
|
That's pretty much the Banshee of this next patch. It is lighter, faster and less dps. The range is the same though (I think).
And yes, making SV should be completely standard in TvZ and not a reaction to guardians. TBH, guardians are very weak in ZvT now, and this might make them an actual alternative to the ultralisk / Viper for late-game.
|
On May 15 2013 22:59 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 22:44 Hider wrote:On May 15 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote:
Erase? They are slow. I've seen two science vessel killing many guardinas, or at least forcing them into goliath fire. Yeh mut still eraise requires a lot of irradiates vs a lot of guardians. Science vessels has to long production time to be considered a unit you build as a response to a sudden tech switch from the zerg player. Since when have Greater spire been a tech you could do a "sudden tech switch" to? The time making it and then morphing the Guardians is enough time to scout/scan/suspect to the point where you would have to be asleep to not realise something is going on. IMO the SVs should not be the responce unit to Guardian. It should, like the Raven to Brood Lords, be the Unit that you start making once you have used soft counters to hold off the initial assault and you are ready to prepare a full counterattack and you wanna shut down the Zerg air thus taking the game.
You have hive tech as zerg and then you can choose to morph mutas into guardians suddenly. If you are "supposed" to produce vikings from the starport vs mutas, then you cant also ahve enough SV's to counter the Guardian transition.
And yes, making SV should be completely standard in TvZ and not a reaction to guardians. TBH, guardians are very weak in ZvT now, and this might make them an actual alternative to the ultralisk / Viper for late-game.
Maybe, but I think with this change they will be insanely good/OP vs bio and still useless vs mech.
|
I have recently proposed the "degenerative minerals field", to create exciting situations in starbow game.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18583109
Today I want to propose another interesting "obstacle" to be added to the maps.
Biological waste:
This bioaccumulation is similar to the "destructible rocks", but over time has been decaying until the total disappearance. These Biological waste can have 9000 hp, but decomposition reduces 10 HP per second (15 minutes for the total decomposition). This biological waste has 0 armor. You could use a campaign model of a building zerg. Thx for read...
|
New viking is looking pretty sick .
Not a lot left to do.
|
|
|
red Square: biological waste
yellow square: degenerative minerals
blue rectangle: add ground
blue-yellow square: degenerative minerals with ramp (only main bases).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sQAsR63.jpg)
|
On May 16 2013 00:03 Xiphias wrote:
That's pretty much the Banshee of this next patch. It is lighter, faster and less dps. The range is the same though (I think).
So let me get this straight. We are making the Banshee lighter, faster, reducing the damage, and giving it an anti-air attack... remind anyone else of anything?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cEfbr6H.jpg)
Can we just admit already that we want the Wraith back?  As I see it, whichever model/name we choose to use as the visual representation of the unit should be the one closest to the way the unit functions. Now which is easier to explain to a new player?
1) Yeah we have Banshees, but they're more fragile, faster, do less damage, oh and they also shoot air.
or
2) Yeah we have Wraiths, they just do more damage to ground and less to air.
|
@Smilezerg I can agree with that.
|
My primary reason for using banshees is: how do players use each unit?
With the banshee they use them primarily for harassment and killing ground targets.
For the most part you use them the same way, aside from cleaning up overlords and warp prisms.
And now lets look at the wraith. Their primary role was hunting armored air targets. They were awful at killing ground targets. It is purely nostalgia to remember 2 port wraith and their ground pounding ability which is nothing compared to the banshee.
Either way would be fine, but if you build a banshee you expect it to be able to deal out some damage to ground targets. The wraith didn't have that.
I'll be patching very shortly, so feel free to test out the new banshee and see how it feels. It honestly feels more like a banshee than a wraith to me in trial.
If you build a wraith you expect to be mopping the floor with dropship's and warp prisms. This banshee doesn't have that.
The bigger trial will be our brand new nullifier and the new iteration of the viking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
