EPT[A] Starbow - Page 188
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
TvZ http://drop.sc/291891 TvP http://drop.sc/291892 | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
I think I was watching those games (without having watched the replay). vrumFondel was casting on his stream.  I want to say, it seems like you have removed the lurker upgrade and I stick by the idea of including it, but would like to add that I understand if you think it might be too strong versus marines before Hive and later terran tech, but once Science Vessels and/or more tanks are out, it will be much easier to hold off lurkers and this upgrade is an interesting alternative path (an expensive 200/200 upgrade, wasn't it?) to survive longer with lurkers rather than rushing for DS or Ultras. Please consider including it again as a hive tech upgrade. It might not even be such a popular choice, but still, having another valid option available is nice, like Guardians in BW; they weren't a typical choice, they generally didn't work out so well, but some amazing games were shown when people got them to work. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
Definitely liking this. Like others said, Blizzard is definitely being too "safe" by sticking with what's already been implemented with WoL. Would like more drastic changes in HotS besides a few new units and more types of rocks. I like SC2 but some aspects could definitely be improved. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Anyone has any thought regarding this? Maybe a planatary that has less armour, or do not to splash dmg would be better, so many weak units has a chance of braeking it down? EDIT: And I think the lurker upgrade is a good idea. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
http://www.speedyshare.com/E6dsA/download/Starbow-Destination-80.SC2Replay | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Fleet beacon upgrades.. I plan to add something like this: +1 Range upgrade for all Stargate units or for only Corsairs. +X dmg vs massive air units for Scouts. Might see use in lategame scenarios with large air vs air combats. Upgrade for Carriers. I have not found anything meaningful though. Upgrade that unlocks an ability for Scouts. (Just need an useful ability in that case ^^) Ghosts Lockdown, Cloak, Snipe and Nuke feels good. Just need to determine the exact values for mainly snipe. Strong spell with high dmg and long cooldown? Spammable spell with no cooldown? Banshees They are very very strong in TvT. One of them can win the game early since T has no good way to defend vs them. Its a build order gamble. Maybe 3-5 Marines must be able to deal better with Banshees, Goliaths easier to get, banshees little higher on the tech tree or something else... Planetary fortress They are not suppose to be able to hold off an entire enemy army. They serve as extra defence, to buy time for reinforcements to arrive and give protection to nearby siege tanks. I do like the choice between Orbital and Planetary. Just need to find good balance that fits well with its purpose. Broodlords They feel weird now. Smaller, faster, weaker. I try to make them less of a deathball unit and not make them mess up enemy AI with their broodlings. At the same time, I dont want to lose the powerful "Broodlord" feeling. (They are lords!) Hmm. Hmm.. Infestors I like Neural parasite and Plague. The current Fungal, which slows attack and movement speed by 50% for enemy units for 14 seconds is ok.. It just feels very very weak.. Like no one gives a shit if they are hit or not. Maybe it needs to be reworked a little bit. I just keep my eye on it.. Lurker upgrade Eearlier I had an upgrade for them that gave them +2 armor. I removed it for two reasons: It was very strong mainly vs bio. It overlapped with Dark Swarm. DS is suppose to be the lategame protection spell. Zerg units are generally rather weak. DS increases their endurance in battle. The Lurker upgrade kinda made it feel unnecessary cause Lurkers never died with 3 base armor and + 3 from full upgrades.. But who knows.. Nullifier It has barely been used. I will keep my eye on it to see if its broken or weird. Blink Positional plays is more present in Starbow than in SC2. Its easier to control areas now via lurkers, reavers, tanks, spider mines etc. Blink is a fun ability but it has been problematic earlier since it nullifies terrain very easily. It was common to see all in stalkers blink into Terran base, then blink on top of the defending siege tanks. To balance that, I doubled the cooldown on Blink. You can get into a base but it is harder to get out again OR to blink on top of the enemy defence (tanks lurkers). Blink has to be used more carefully. A couple of players have suggested to instead let blink have normal cooldown and instead shorter range = more micro moments, still harder to blink on top of stuff. Thoughts? Feel free to discuss this and bring your ideas. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
At least go with that (or something similar) to start with, unless instead of +20 vs psionic you make it a bonus against some other type like +25 vs light so that you can one shot lings and two-shot hydralisks (as they now have 90 hp I am told), though I'm not sure how often it would be used and you'd need to make sure mass snipe vs hydras wasn't too good if hydras are to be at all viable vs terran in some form, not that it's a popular thing for people to attempt. ^_^ It could instead be a bonus vs armoured (would probably be only +10 then at a guess) or +~15 to massive for use against Ultralisks and Brood Lords, but we don't want to duplicate the strength and versatility of SC2 snipe before that patch. I agree that it is nice to have another choice for terran to turn their Command Centres into and messing around with a completely different concept for the alternative to an OC might not be a good idea right now, so just check for more games such as the mech games to make sure it's not too strong in combination with repair and Starbow God Tanks (I jest) and if it is, perhaps tweak it to be a little weaker in Starbow, at least until you're more sure what to do with it. Alternatively, you could also make it stronger but use 50 energy and perhaps have a cooldown, centred around a not-too-much stronger snipe, but I think the first plan is better. On that note, I would suggest considering you weaken repair instead though, because it has always cost only one quarter of the total building resources to repair a building from 1 life to full health, which is super cheap, but more importantly, the rate is just so good. If you were to nerf PFs, I would do it indirectly, by making every additional repairing SCV after the first only repair at half the normal rate, if that is possible. Otherwise just 50%, 66% or 75% for all would be worth a shot. That, of course, supposes you or someone else has a way to change that. I believe the editor does have a set repair rate number somewhere. I still think the 50% attack speed reduction (for fungal) is huge and people just aren't using them much. Just go pure hydra vs marines is fungals to halve the marine attack rate and chuck just a few banelings in. Should work easily to mop them up. There are likely better combinations than that, but it was an example that terran would probably have to remain stimulated at all times, meaning they kill themselves or negate the medic healing What are the medic healing rates then? I think someone said they were way too strong. BW medics converted into SC2 should heal 13.71733 hp/second at SC2 normal speed. (I can always show the math if requested) I still don't think you've mentioned if stim was further buffed. Someone said it was. Banshees: Is it so different from SC2 TvT and if so, how? If not, I suppose you just don't like the vulnerability of the defender and how easy it is to get to them, but it's not so different from say fast Dark Templar, is it? Lurker upgrade: :"( The 2 armour upgrade was only when burrowed and it doesn't do anything to tanks', mines' and Irradiate's ability to wipe them out. If you make it Hive tech, then it only stops excellent marine splits from being ridiculously good with super stim against lurkers. I personally think it'll keep them viable in hive tech. I've mostly been seeing the other options come out in the Starbow games I've viewed, not continued lurkers under swarm. Also, if you have snipe and it's good but no too good, it might be a viable choice for getting rid of lurkers. You could make it another option to compare to Irradiate, with Science Vessels obviously also detecting the lurkers for you and requiring research before you can use Irradiate (also higher in the tech tree, yes?), but Ghosts being more accessible and maybe not quite as effective at it, maybe requires 5 snipes? (depends on the costs you have set for the ghost though) Do you have it at (BW) 9 or (SC2) 10 range? *I need to check the ghost stats and cost too actually* | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Protoss air upgrades - Definately unly range for Corsairs. Corsairs do their job in small numbers with short range, whereas you need range to kite if the enemy gets more air. Carriers do nothing with a range upgrade and Scouts will be gimped if they have too short range without upgrade. Extra damage to Scouts - Seems wierd as they optimally should be the better option for sniping drops or banshees compared to cannons or corsairs. Any upgrade should really make them better at dealing with all air units rather than just massive, but maybe that is just me. As for the Scouts upgradable ability, I got an idea while writing this response: Target lock: The next air unit hit by the Scouts missiles grants the Scout a "lock" on the unit, allowing it to double its attack range against this unit for the next 5 seconds, or untill it attacks another unit - 20 second cooldown. In short, the Scout attacks once, then gets double attack range, but ONLY if it keeps attacking the same unit. This allows it to snipe drops better, kite more effectively and pursure Anyone who might be concerned that this will meke kiting more difficult, remember that the scouts are single target, and that switching targets breaks the lock. So while kiting Scouts may result in you losing a few units, you will with skill be able to inflict more damage on the Scout fleet when using Vikings, Mutalisks or Corsairs (if properly balanced). | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://drop.sc/292532 | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On January 09 2013 04:53 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Lurker upgrade - Why would the Lurkers have more armor than fully upgraded Ultralisk? 1 inherent + 2 when burrowed with the upgrade = same as 1 inherent for ultralisks + 2 for chitinous plating. Same and only when burrowed. Force them to move and they're much more vulnerable anyway. :| I could be wrong, but wouldn't fast, 8-10 range scouts (one Target Lock kicks in) discourage things like drops from being made in the first place? I mean if it's only to a small extent, that's okay, I'm just trying to imagine how much of an effect it might have. We also don't want (I think) them to become too good vs Brood Lords and BCs WITH long range when carriers already exist and SC2 is going to have tempests. Do we like that approach of dealing with BLs, mass out-ranging air that they also can't hope to escape? I'd be willing to see it given a shot though, for sure. If Starbow operates like BW, Dark Swarm is not something you just easily throw down whenever you want. Irradiates galore, mines became more common as time went on, snipe will exist when it did not in Brood War. Bio in BW was typically not pure bio but rather bio with more tanks if they were heavy on lurkers. Pure bio was MEANT to be bad vs lurkers and it was only skilful micro that made it possible to survive. Lurkers were made to be good against bio. I like more options, so long as they don't double-up on the same approach. Feedback+Nullify if they were both in it, avoid that sort of thing. This is a passive bonus that only applies when they are settled and goes away whenever they try to run away or reposition themselves, dark swarm is a temporary spell you have to throw around that enemy units can escape from and that (for general use) requires that you continue to burn minerals on consumed units in order to maintain; a spell that is a constant mineral drain and, at least in BW, was a gas-drain because of the number of defilers that would die as you continue to use the spell, because you NEEDED that swarm, but defilers were pretty prone (and there is now snipe as yet another way of dealing with them) Oh and I still don't understand why we have 60 HP SCVs instead of 40 or 45. :S EDIT: WOW. So we have Ghosts at only 50 minerals and 100 gas and snipe currently deals (worded this way to compare to sc2 snipe) 40 damage per 25 energy (but as 80 for 50 energy) and you're concerned about lurker armour upgrades while burrowed being too strong? Get your priorities straight, that snipe with cheap-arse ghosts should roll through lurkers sickeningly well. That's right, don't just ignore how easily snipe will deal with them just because they'll actually remain good against mineral-only marines. We couldn't have a unit actually be good against marines now, could we? Banelings and lurkers are both meant to just be dealt with by micromanaged marines, surely!! Grrr at the crying poor little marine reasoning. 100 energy from a 50/100 unit to kill a 125/125 unit from 9 or 10 range away without taking any damage. O_O Speed up Lockdown animation a bit (33%?), because if the targets move, the missiles turn at the last moment to seek and it looks silly. Could you also add the old BW sound effect to it hitting? That was"way cool". | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
Have not really used Ghosts that much in Starbow, that being said... I have no clue xD I agree that Banshees are pretty strong, maybe reduce the base damage while increasing damage bonus from air-weapon upgrade? Either that or make them require... maybe an armory? I don't see something too-too wrong with Planetaries in Starbow, they feel a bit weaker than in WoL imo. That being said: Repair nerf could potentially be tested if it turns out that there's too many people complaining about PF. I actually really like current Infestors, they seem pretty well balanced. Would like to see more Fungal+Baneling combinations maybe, to see if Fungal really is... Nope, sorry can't utter the words "too weak" and Fungal in the same sentence. Lurker armor upgrade: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! And for the Nullifier: I think it needs some more time to be explored enough before giving it a buff/rework/scrapping it. As far as SCVs go... Why would they need a reduction in HP? SCV's are pretty much fine the way they are right now. Aaaaand you can't snipe burrowed units. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On January 09 2013 06:14 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: 1 inherent + 2 when burrowed with the upgrade = same as 1 inherent for ultralisks + 2 for chitinous plating. Same and only when burrowed. Force them to move and they're much more vulnerable anyway. :| I could be wrong, but wouldn't fast, 8-10 range scouts (one Target Lock kicks in) discourage things like drops from being made in the first place? I mean if it's only to a small extent, that's okay, I'm just trying to imagine how much of an effect it might have. We also don't want (I think) them to become too good vs Brood Lords and BCs WITH long range when carriers already exist and SC2 is going to have tempests. Do we like that approach of dealing with BLs, mass out-ranging air that they also can't hope to escape? I'd be willing to see it given a shot though, for sure. Oh - I was thinking of Ultralisks having +5 (forgot the 1 inherent) Also - the elegance of the "Target lock" skill is that you have to be in the normal range of the Scout for it to trigger - THEN kite back or give chase. The skill states that the Scout has to hit a target before locking on, so you have to get the first shot in before the range boost takes effect. This skill does not imply scouts having 8-10 effective range, but only 4-5 effective range, with a range boost that only takes effect once you have cought the drop, or engaged the Broodlords, or hit the Science Vessel. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
There will be comments about balance in here mainly, so it's not a replay cast or review, or anything like that but as I might do the ZvT as well, I'll put it/them in spoilers. + Show Spoiler + Cool to see Rift and Lockdown in effect, but the game starts off pretty stupidly. Being able to use void that often seems silly, although their macro did slip in the 10th minute engagement so only 4 units being called isn't unfair. I just worry that seeing the same harassment again and again with only a 2 minute rift cooldown will be lame. Xiphias also had full Nexus energy, so Rift could probably cost plenty of energy (50-all 100) and you could still use it at that rate. He had a second nexus up and could then use rift basically twice in a row (opted not to though or didn't realise he could because he'd just done it). 'Twas a shame you didn't get warp gate and warp in using the warp prism! On the Nullifier, I take it Void Shell requires a Robotics Support Bay? The ability doesn't sound good enough to have to research AND from a building like that. Possibly you could either (this one doesn't feel appropriate with it being a robotic unit) move the technology to the Cybernetics Core or lower the cost and build time of the technology (though I still need to see what it is) or just make that researched by default. In fact, if you are going to keep Nullify as strong as it is, maybe it should not be researched by default. Swap the two maybe? The area of effect appears to be pretty small though. Also 150/100 maybe that's okay with HT being 150 gas, but we'll need to keep an eye on whether protoss has too much gas available to them when using Nullifiers. It might have been a shame Xiphias didn't hit a medic with it instead seeing as they had so many hit points, except that the radius is small enough so that the ghosts would NOT have been hit by the impact if he had targeted them. Xiphias, were you aware of the radius before this game? So Lockdown only costs 75 energy (not initially against) on these cheap ghosts (against). Well, at least we'll see it in use, but couldn't you just go mass medic marine ghost, lockdown masses of targets and stim through to win? Is that why Nullifiers only cost 100 gas? JohnnyZerg (as terran) has few minerals really, I think if his economy was better he'd have had far more marines and cleaned up protoss force much more easily. I also see stim's display effect on the weapons speed claim it's just normal SC2 stim now. Is this right? Target Lock will still mean that you don't have to fear retribution from marines that could otherwise be in range of the scout if there is only one scout to try to take out the drop as and after they are landing, so one can foil the dropship's chance for escape. Vs zerg it would have to fear things like fungal and neural though they are fast so the zerg would also have to react quickly (the neural parasite misses if the target moves out of range, right?) to catch scouts before they retreat. Same for lockdown though. I suppose it could prove very interesting in that they could really get caught if a zerg or terran manages to snap their finges to the right keys and the mouse to the right position for some swift catching of their ickle scout prey, but failing that, the xscouts will be able to retreat to their comfortable range. EDIT: I'm watching the ZvT now in case I pick up on anything unexpected (and for fun, obviously!) but I'll post that below after all, if I choose to write anything about it. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
PvP from today: http://drop.sc/292594 @Planetary Fortress Armies are generally smaller in Starbow compared to SC2, which means that the damage output is lower. Its rare to see a 200/200 army fight vs a planetary fortress. They feel unkillable right now. Maybe the repair time is the way to go. Or increase cost of Planetary repair. Hm,, @Fungal growth Yeah it might be more useful than it seems, especially combined with the right units. I will not change anything about it yet. @Stimpack It is currently the same damage and speed increase as in SC2. @Banshee The Banshee is barely different from the SC2 version. Its just the Terran anti air that is "worse". Or rather, there is barely any point to go marines in TvT now. Terran must gamble: build early marines in case of a banshee.. if he does, and the enemy comes with vultures and tanks, the marines are worthless.. goliaths are hard to get up and barely defeat a banshee.. engineering bay with turret is a huge investment.. the easiest way is to get your own starport.. so the counter to enemy banshee is your own starport... I am not saying its completely unbalanced or impossible to deal with. From the few TvTs I have seen recently. the player who goes for banshee "auto-wins" since the enemy can not deal with it.. @Lurker upgrade It might make a comeback in some form, but not right now though since I have a couple of other things that is higher in priority - like fleet beacon upgrades. (The building is currently empty) @Snipe Snipe can not target burrowed units. Ghosts worked like walking siege tanks vs lurkers and outranged them with snipe. Irradiate, tanks and banshees are already great at dealing with burrowed lurkers. But I shall never say never. Maybe it is important to target burrowed units. If so, the change will be reverted, @Scout ability An upgrade that strengthens its use to snipe enemy air unit sounds good. I will think about Target lock in some form. @ Nullifier Right now the Nullifier requires only robo facility and starts with Nullifiy. (AoE-feedback) .. Void shell and Vortex can be researched from robo bay. This means that the nullifier sees play only when enemy player brings out energy units on the field. It has no other uses, unless P invests in a robo bay and starts researching the other things. I consider to change starting spell, or make both void shell + nullify as starting spells.. hmm.. Ps. I am in a hurry so I can not write so much in details now.. thats why my comments are very scarce.. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Wow at Transfusion being buffed from 25 energy for 75 healing to 25 for 100 life. Glad you have gone with only 100/100 cost for Grooved Spines as I always said 150/150 was too harsh! (Not sure if I said so in here months ago or not) Someone said Hydralisks had 90 hit points, that appears to be wrong (or else change yet again) as they have 100 in this replay. Oh! at the Acidic Spines passive that isn't obvious at first glance (+2 Hydra damage to Light/[Medium] air units) Very cool watching zergs go against purely ground mech (into banshee support) and not even consider getting a spire, impractical but shows different ways of trying to handle situations. Now that I see Banshees have slightly lower damage (just less per hit, good) and (important part) 1 less range, I wonder why Kabel says they're very strong in TvT when you have vikings, scans that last 12 seconds and marines that can at least upgrade to the same range as Banshees now. That's ignoring the obvious turrets, of course., which are a little better at keeping the banshees away seeing as the banshees now need to get closer in order to harass the mineral line. 5k 2k spare for terran is a bit of a shame for the match though. XD Xiphias remembers goon range for his hydras at around 24 minutes! Shi..ahhh...why did you engage later that minute before range had finished?? *Cries zerg tears* I'm pretty sure Nerve Jammer could afford to only be 100 energy rather than 125, at least for now, unless you've experienced something that strongly suggests otherwise. Any reason why landed Vikings now deal only 8DPS instead of 12? Ahhh, that's how you've dealt with broodlings from Brood Lords, I like it a lot. Goliaths can have various different colours at the front of the cockpit. I don't know if that was your doing or just form teh campaign versions of them, but it's very cool. Goliaths seem beastly, but they're fine, I think. It's being able to mass produce them like lightning from reactors that is a problem. I know they didn't require a Machine Shop with the Armoury in Brood War, but I think Blizzard made them require a Tech Lab (pretty sure they did) in the campaign for good reason. Maybe that's just my impression of it though and they'll turn out fine. Ah, Zaphod Beeblebrox, it looks like Kabel's Ultralisks actually have 2 inherent armour but no Chitinous Plating upgrade, which is how you thought Ultralisks only had up to 5 armour (they do in this!). I don't think that's good, honestly, nor do I think the 30 base damage is good, just like I think it's too much in HotS, especially as these ones cost less (100 less life too though). You see why ultras are popular in ZvT Starbow lategame? (from what I've seen) Ultras with lings destroy roll through very easily without tanks or mines, mines can't be stopped in mêlée even one at a time and mass tanks wipe out ling ultra. My concern is that the mine needs a fix and the ultra needs a nerf. Armies look large well below 200 supply. Good job. Tanks at 2 supply might still be a problem with them being stronger than in BW and SC2, that's one to keep an eye on. Ultras don't seem to be able to stop mines, in Brood War, I'm sure lings and ultras could, it just wasn't easy for them. I think either the mine explosion time (cooldown) needs to be higher or you've got it set so that they deal damage even if killed, like banelings, when mines previously did no deal damage if they were destroyed. Yeeah, I like these BLs better than SC2 ones. The mass broodlings in SC2 look cool but are impractical, these are more like a spreading plague of broodlings as a direct result of destruction rather than an endless unstoppable wave. The 12 range is nice but might also be right, because they are meant to be sieging units (and capable of attacking expansions from air behind them) the direct damage needs to be higher than SC2 BLs because the broodlings only spawn on enemy unit death, so 25 every 2 seconds is good, so I'd say it's just the speed and hit points you need to worry about being right or wrong and I think they need more testing first. Vikings, 3 snipes and Gollies with 9 range if they can get close enough (much easier without a wave of broodlings so just don't lead with unupgraded marines or workers ahead of the Gollies), Irradiate and most likely BCs are all viable ways of dealing with them. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
The only risk would be if getting vulture or tanks before the viking would eat up too many minerals to get the viking in time, or if going for the viking quick opens you up to a vulture tank timing. I don't think this should be a problem unless you FE, in which you should be relying on turrets while getting tank/viking up. That's why I think making the engineering bay a bit easier to get could help with getting those initial turrets to defend your worker lines. I'm not sure what builds the other terran was going for when they just died to banshees. @Stim: You reverted the stim buff you did a while back? | ||
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