EPThttp://drop.sc/293564
http://drop.sc/293566
http://drop.sc/293565
One of them might be one from last page.
[A] Starbow - Page 190
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://drop.sc/293564 http://drop.sc/293566 http://drop.sc/293565 One of them might be one from last page. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Having both lurkers and banelings is awesome, banelings against a skilled terran cannot simply be a-moved unless the terran was already significantly behind. You have to split banelings to follow the split marines. The potential is that we could have terrans having to worry about burrowed banelings and lurkers as well, but then scan doesn't normally last 12 seconds and the with replacement for MULEs being less attractive then MULEs, terrans should really have more scans left. Science Vessels, once you get to them, also cost 25 less gas than they did in Brood War (Raven gas cost of 200 now) so that's another thing to help out. See how it goes for now, but I think banelings can be a lot of fun. A bigger concern might be that banelings might be harder to deal with without tanks due to having vultures instead of hellions, but again, leave it for now, I think and they can always be removed if we can't find a way for them to both exist in the game for balance. So far I haven't seen them used in combination (except when I tried it ling lurker burrowed baneling against terran AI  ).Wraith were not used much outside of two-port wraith versus zerg, which was really only popular on particular maps like Katrina and Heartbreak Ridge (and in the case of the latter it might just have been because HR was flavour of the month and I watched two replay packs of terrans doing it on iCCup). Wraith can be cool but I think banshees will see more use. Wraith can be very good on particular maps but typically left the terran with unupgraded marines to start with when they first transition out of it, so if a zerg deals with the wraith and forces the terran to transition, their mutalisk+zergling or hydralisk force could actually compete with the marines for a while (from what I saw, a zerg that held it off well typically had at least as many hydralisks as the terran had marines) and would actually be in a pretty good position to capitalise on it. From memory, most of the really impressive looking games involved maps that favoured wraith play. If the zerg gets mutas and you instead had banshees, well of course if they can detect you, the banshees are worse then. They are meant for different purposes. One if even faster and better at keeping themselves alive against other air units while harassing more lightly, the other is meant to be used either stealthily or with enough of them to murder things horrifically quickly, but the latter investment can be very risky (so it's not common, more all-in). Place BW wraith in SC2 and the air to ground damage comparison (per normal game second) is 4.74 to 17.6 (for Starbow banshees with 22 instead of 24 damage, still shooting every 1.25 game seconds). You might notice the huge difference in how much you need to invest in banshees to effectively harass the mineral line. Lynx801 is also talking about not being able to shoot overlords and mutas, but you can do that with vikings (which he wants removed, hence his mindset about banshees needing to be able to, or rather, be replaced by wraith instead). Kabel did just implement moving shot for vikings, mutalisks and corsairs, right? If you're going to invest in a decent number of wraith, you could instead invest in some banshees and some vikings and hold off scourge with micro. The vikings keep overseers away so it's easier for banshees to stay undetected while cloaked, too. Spider mines seem bugged so that ultras and lings actually can't kill them to stop damage, so they're bloody strong versus ultras right now, should be strong versus lurkers if you place them around small numbers of lurkers with fast vultures and then scan to trigger them, safer than marines in most situations and the vultures will likely bait the first few spines (and are somewhat likely to dodge the hits too), but that requires plenty of attention and wouldn't like become a standard way of dealing with lurkers when a player getting vultures is likely getting tanks too. :D Spider mines were always incredibly strong from 75 mineral units, so being a bit weaker and coming from 100 mineral vultures doesn't seem unreasonable to me. So far, they look extremely strong; the main difference is probably that hydralisks have 100 hit points now and so they have 25 life left after being hit instead of taking 93.75 (out of 80 life...) and dying. If anything, I'd have thought that was a problem with the hydralisk having 100 life while still being 75/25 like BW (but if you were to nerf them, the HP are what you would change). Goliath model is about the same as it always was relative to the game, isn't it? Tanks are slightly bigger, but workers might be a tiny bit too. I think everything is a tiny bit bigger than in BW, isn't it? :S I don't mind the golden stalker or the normal one, no real preference, but Stalkers are normally grey, not blue. It's a bluish shade, granted, but it's grey. That reminds me, I need to find and switch to the chrome stalker skin again, that really does rock. Red and orange stalkers look like McLaren Formula One cars with that. As for replays, you probably won't find Starbow replays on normal rep sites, just here, really. The mod only has a small fan-base at the moment. On Vikings, Kabel, what's the reason we have them so weak against ground? It's 10 every 1.25 instead of 12 every 1 second, right? Couldn't they be normal in order to be potential base harassing units again (always risky, but more viable then), or even 14 damage? Is there something I'm missing that suggests it is too strong? They still cost something like 150/75, yes? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Mutalisks, Corsairs and Vikings now have moving shot. Not sure if its perfect yet. Maybe it can be improved to allow even smoother micro. The Hydra got buffed to 100 life to compensate for the fewer larvas Zerg spawn. 15 sec per larva in BW and SC2. 18 sec in Starbow. (That increases to 12 per second for 40 seconds with Inject. Can only store 3 larvas per hatch.) The reason for this is that I stubbornly stick with a few number of workers per base. 2 per mineral patch is maximum. 16 per base. 3 on gas. Allows the supply to stay low and players can have many bases at the same time. Workers Build time have been increased to 22 instead of 17, to keep the total saturation time of a base somewhat close. (24 workers x 17 seconds is the saturation time for a new base in SC2, compared to 16x22 in Starbow. ) Larvas that would spawn every 15 second would give Z a huuuuge economic advantage in this context. But the slower larva spawn rate also punishes Zs overall army production and makes each combat unit more larva expensive compared to BW. A slight boost for Hydras gives Z more "Hydra per larva" , which so far feels ok in ZvP atleast. Plus that I personally enjoy slow larva spawn and larva management, think twice on how to use the larvas and each one feels more important. Spider mines has always been a hot topic. Not sure if they have the optimal value now. 75 dmg vs all. 100 vs armored. Not attack workers or vultures. Unburrows, stand still for 1 sec (can be target fired but not auto-attacked) then moves rapidly to the enemy. During that short distance, it can be auto-attacked by units. Golden stalker is purely because I can´t stand the grey one >.< A earlier problem, atleast in my eyes, was that Goliaths and Vikings were too similar. Both had same DPS, life, cost, size, purpose, speed etc. A goliath vs a viking was an even fight. I wanted to seperate them to make each one feel more unique. A while ago I did this: Goliath turned into a more combat oriented unit - ca 10% larger model, 10% more life and a slight increase in ground DPS. Vikings turned into a weaker but faster anti air unit with moving shot. Can upgrade splash vs air. To compensate for that, and to seperate them even more from Goliath, I made them weaker in ground mode. Less DPS. Enough for harassing workers but not good to have in the army. As usual, I keep an eye on my own changes. Sometimes I make bad decisions. Sometimes it work. But by playing and observing as much as possible, I try to get a better understanding and grasp of the game. Anyways, I will get a new patch ca 3 hours from now. Just minor modifications. Do not miss this excellent cast by Xiphias! Ps. Yes, I am Gossen ^^ | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
First off ,the reason why i don't like the viking and would like to see it removed is beacuse it can easily focus fire capital ships since it ignores terrain, has big range and does bonus vs armored. The fact it has a moving shot will only make him even better in doing so. In the Bible it says: "Thou shall make Goliath counter unit to Carrier." And that's how it should be, thats how it's always been in starcraft. Viking is just too damn easy and carriers will continue to suck if u keep him in the game. Second,i know valks didnt do full dmg to mutas but neither did corsairs FYI and corsairs absolutely raped mutas.Whats important is whats effective not whats in the stats. Third,2 port wraith had weakneses and flaws but at least it was doable and could pose a real threat.being able to shoot overlords is important if you wanna harras the zerg.If corsairs and wraiths couldnt shoot overlords,you would never see them in pvz(unless you wanna get corsairs speciffically to hard counter mutas). On the other hand you get a queen and 1-2 spores in the main and the nat and goodbye banshees! | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- Planetary fortress armor reduced from 3 to 1. (I did not change anything about the repair yet.) - Nullifier stats with both Nullify and Void Shell. - Nerve jammer 100 energy instead of 125. (Effects all units) - Overseer can be morphed anytime. (Not require lair) They have same slow speed as Overlords until speed upg is researched. (Z seems to have a hard time to defend vs early vultures that can get into the base and plant mines among the workers. Also easy to become contained by spider mines until they reach lair.) Some bug fixes and minor modifications. Nothing game changing. I take small steps nowadays. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
HyunA (T) vs JohnnyZerg (Z) http://www.speedyshare.com/dPc59/download/Starbow-T-vs-Z.SC2Replay JohnnyZerg (Z) vs Vizza (P) http://www.speedyshare.com/E68xA/download/Starbow-Z-vs-P.SC2Replay for plague i think that reduce the radius is the best choice. Give plague another animation, because currently it is not clear which units affected and which are not. Use fungal animation but red (or yellow) colors. gl hf | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
(Red is a much more common color T_T) | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Also a possible new starbow map? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=392669 Would be interstingto see a more macro-oriented map. | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
On January 11 2013 15:28 Xiphias wrote: Red fungal marks the units well but looks like candy cane..... Good for testing to make sure we see but should probably be altered before it goes out of beta. Are we using the SC2BW plauge atm? (For animation, not stats) Also a possible new starbow map? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=392669 Would be interstingto see a more macro-oriented map. Actually saw this map before I left home today, I think it's pretty awesome looking (maybe a bit too much of... nothing in the middle but still cool). Plus the positioning of the two mains is something uncommon, so me likes. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On January 11 2013 20:52 Lynx801 wrote: isn't plague on lair tech kinda op,maybe hive tech requirement? The cast radius seems to be smaller than the BW pluge, and infestors do not have consume. The upgrade is expencive and I also think it does less dmg than the BW one, correct me if I am wrong on this one. So it's not really plauge, just his little brother, and as long as these things are in-game, I think it is fair to have it on lair tech. It's not like we see a lot of it anyways. I do believe, however, that the infestor in Starbow has much more potential than is being used atm, and might be a broken unit in the future. Remains to be seen... Nothing that can't be patched though. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
On January 11 2013 21:43 Xiphias wrote: The cast radius seems to be smaller than the BW pluge, and infestors do not have consume. The upgrade is expencive and I also think it does less dmg than the BW one, correct me if I am wrong on this one. it does 150 dmg and marines have 45hp so... | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
http://www.speedyshare.com/38SyQ/download/Starbow-TvsP.SC2Replay Winner and thoughts: + Show Spoiler + HyunA is the winner. Ghost are very bad. Ridiculus dps. I think the lockdown research should require less cost, and can enter up to four ghost in a bunker. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Remove | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
If we have a metagame then balance is more easily achieved according to how we want the game to flow. If there is no metagame then balance should first be achieved by trying to counter your opponents new strat that he is just now trying to develop. One of the reasons I like Starbow so much is the ability to make up a new strategy and make it work because the game is in BETA mode. So I guess I feel there is no set metagame at the moment. One example of this is my own startegy lately. In zvt I am experimenting with ling/infestor/muta or hydra into ultra with success, but few games. It might be broken, or people might not know how to deal with it yet, and a simple and elegant solution might be right in front of our noses, someone just need to analyse and make a strat that works with what we have. This is not just ramble (just some of it is..). I guess what I am trying to say is that balancing and nerfing should not come unitill a certain strategy seems unbeatable in the current metagame, and right now, as Gossen himself has pointed out, very few adjustments should be made. I do not think this post brings much new, more of a reasoning behind any future work that may come and a caution for later. Peace out! | ||
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