EPT[A] Starbow - Page 189
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
On January 09 2013 17:58 Xiphias wrote: What about removing the splash dmg on planataries. It can be repaired, and hold off small groups but will (should at least) fall to a larger amount of units. Already been tried before; it just dies to zerglings/zealots. My thought is for it to deal less splash damage the farther it has to shoot. Melee units like zealots and zerglings would not be imba against the PF, but it can still defend alright against ranged units. You can nerf the overall damage, too. I do not like the idea of messing with repair/repair cost. Opponents should be focus firing the SCVs if they can not out-DPS the repair rate. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On January 09 2013 13:36 purakushi wrote: Balance aside, I like that snipe does not work on burrowed units. Just makes sense. >_< lol Oh yes, I agree with that.  It's possible bullets could hit a target just below the surface, but it's a bit of a stretch. I just thought it was left as snipe is in SC2 that way. (right?) | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
EDIT: Just realized, every cast I've ever done is on destination. No intentions whatsoever .... weird. | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
1.Having both vikings and goliaths in the game is not good. Viking's design is fundamentally flawed. It's a hard counter anti armor flying unit that traverses terrain and is the main reason why you never see carriers and battlecruisers in sc2 pvt or tvt. Remember in brood war carrier vs goliaths batlles were dynamic and exciting because carriers could go against goliaths and vice versa. Thats because goliath is ground unit and carriers could micro against goliaths by flying over ledges and ridges which made the dynamic possible. Sometimes it would be good to shoot the interceptors, sometimes directly at carriers, depending in the situation at hand. In the case of viking you can always just easily focus fire carriers/battlecruisers since it's an aerieal unit that can always shoot directly at them and even does bonus vs armored dmg. Keeping vikings in the game is the same as removing carriers and bc's. Remove viking from the game or tweak it to be an anti-light unit like Valkyrie or just bring back valkyrie instead. 2.Having both lurkers and banelings is dubious. I know baneligs make for better early game zvz, but overall banelig is just a dumbed down a-move unit that was a poor sc2 replacement for the lurker. It's not interesting, doesn't require micro and is just op. You just make a buch of baneligs/zerglings, a-move them into the terran army and wipe out everything in 1 sec, we've seen that a million times in sc2, it's stupid and not strategic. Lurker is overall a more interesting and better unit than the baneling, allows fore more micro, strategy and more interesting metagame. Just stick with lurker, forget about banelings. 3.Banshess are a poor replacement for wraiths. I know on first sight it seems like a stronger or better unit than the wraith beacuse it does more ground damage, but when you think more about it, there's really not much you can do with it. I watched alot of wol and hots games and the only thing i ever saw was players sometimes getting a couple of banshees early game to attempt some harras, then they maybe get a few drone kills before they get killed off which happens quickly. Banshees are relatively slow, can't shoot air and are easy to deal with. Other than some minor-early-game-not-interesting harras there's not much you can do with them. On the other hand i know wraith wasn't the most commonly used unit in bw, but wratih builds if properly executed, were possible and could be very effective, contain alot of micro and strategy. Sometimes players would go for wraith openers against zerg, sicnce they moved fast and can shoot at overlords they were much more potent harrasers, and you could also do muta-like micro with them. Then zerg play would get muta/scourge/hyrdra and you would watch a dynamic battle all the way into the mid-game before transitioning into medic marine and ground. Also some early game combo builds with vultures/marines were sometimes effective,micro intensive and interesting. None of that is possible with banshees, with which most you can see is them killing 2 drones before getting dispached of. Also in tvt sometimes they played a role, players would get them to spot for the siege tanks and maybe shoot at them, then after they booth ammased wratihs they would also get valkaryes to deal with wariths and it would transtition the game into aerieal battle with tons of micro. And again, none of that with the banshees. Forget about banshees, bring back the wraith. 4.I think you might have nerfed the spider mines a bit too much 5.Goliath model is a little too big 6.Golden stalkers look damn ugly, i know you want to recreate the brood war feeling but stalker doesn't have the shape of a dragoon and yellow color doesn't fit him. Blue ones are more pleasing to watch. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
2. Having banelings synergize nicly with fungals in Starbow and provides an earlier offencive than lurkers, even though they are rarly seen in zvt. 3.We discussed banshee vs wraith yesterday.... 4. No, they are fine. 5. We know why, it is better than the bw one so it is also slightly bigger. 6. I loved the golden stalker when I first layed my eyes upon them. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
2. How are Banelings op? Care to elaborate that further? There's plenty of ways to deal with them from a terran's perspective. 3. This isn't SC2 as you know it. I like both Banshees and Wraiths, but right now I kinda don't feel like this is - aside from maybe TvT - too much of an issue. 4. I think they are fine the way they are right now. 5. Meh. I don't agree. Look fine to me  6. Well, yeah? That's just like... your opinion, man. I hear a lot of "in sc2/wol/hots it's like this and that". This is neither WoL nor HotS. Stop thinking in SC2 terms. | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
2.whatever with the baneligs, i just think it's a crappy unit, being able to one-shot an entire army is not only op but it's also stupid but if u wanna keep it keep it 3.maybe you never watched any excellent brood war zvt's or tvt's with wraiths used, if you did i'm 100% certain you wouldn't consider banshees better than wraiths 4.maybe 5.maybe 6.i guess this is primarily a subjective issue,i just think blue ones look better | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
1. I don´t think Vikings + Goliaths are more flawed than Wraiths and Goliaths. Both deal high dmg vs armored targets. Vikings in Starbow are also different compared to SC2. - They can upgrade a small splash attack vs air units. (Good vs mutalisks, corsairs, enemy vikings and other masses of smaller sized units. Not large AoE to damage several carriers or BC in one shot. ) - Moves faster. - Shorter attack range - Can do a moving shot, which allows for more micro. The SC2 Viking is not that interesting, due to its tendency to be a slow moving fragile massable deathball unit. In Sc2, Vs Protoss, it is built to deal with Colossus and thereby it also "denies" Protoss from building air units. In Starbow, its much more common to see T go for mass Goliaths vs Carriers because they already have the factories for it. Wraiths vs Carriers in BW was a rare thing, but when it happend, it was still quite exciting, despite no terrain present. 2. Lurkers and Baneling do the same thing but in different ways and for various purposes. Lurkers are probably more cost efficent and can be used in many more situations. But sometimes the baneling is a better choice. Plus it spices up ZvZ. Banelings in Starbow do not wipe out entire armies as easy due to stats changes, different macro mechanics, fewer resources, abilities the enemy can use to counter them etc. Build 50 banelings in Starbow is quite an investment, both in terms of larva and resources. If they are used to destroy an enemy army, which is harder now compared to SC2, it will take time to reach that amount of banelings again.. 3. Banshee is useful in all stages of the game for different purposes - harass, gain map control, snipe units like lurkers/siege tanks, be part of the army composition due to their high dps. It allows Terran to harass without going for a heavy commitment. There is no point in getting 1-2 Wraiths only, except to chase Warp Prism + Reaver and hunt Overlords. (Which vikings can do now) T needs 5-6 Wraiths to kill 1 worker in one shot.. and outside harassing, they are useless in combat. 4. Well, maybe. Need to play more to determine that. 5. I think they are fine. 6. They are sexy ^^ Join us tonight when we play so you can obs or play some games Ps. I will have a new patch up today ! | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
2.it's a dumbed down a-move unit, i know you can theoretically deal with it but it's just plain stupid, terran will get a bunch of marines and siege tanks and then zerg just a-moves a bunch of zerglings and banelings into the army and kills everything in 2seconds, and the only anti-micro is stimming and pushing marines back to lure the banelings into siege tanks, lurker/ling/darkswarm micro and dynamic is just way better | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On January 10 2013 20:14 Lynx801 wrote: @ Xiphias 3.maybe you never watched any excellent brood war zvt's or tvt's with wraiths used, if you did i'm 100% certain you wouldn't consider banshees better than wraiths Well ... that escalated quickly.... I just said we discussd it yesterday I did not say I considered banshees to be better than wraith. And fyi, I played BW for 12 years before switich to starcraft 2 so I have seen my fair share of wraiths in BW. Two things to consider (and this is oc only my opinion): 1. Starbow is not BW. I was also sceptical to the wraith being replaced by viking / banshee and the viking is under some discussion it seems, but as I've played and watched the game develope the banshee feels more right for starbow than the wraith. See Kabels last post for more details. It is less of an investment. 2. The banshee in Starbow is not the same as in SC2, and can even be more different if needed. So I guess I do consider the banshee to be better than wraith, but just for starbow Glad you enjoyed the MOD though, it just keeps getting better.EDIT: And I agree, banelings are not very good in Starbow, if any unit is OP in zvt it is lurkers not banelings, they are just fine! | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
but maybe i'm wrong and you're right, we'll see.. | ||
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Lynx801
Croatia15 Posts
(i mean the ones from the latest patch,not entire thread) | ||
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