I'm down for a tournament. We should probably wait untill it is out of beta. I'm down for casting the tournament as well. We can split the games in two if decembercalm wants to cast too.
Maybe I am the only one to realize this but the broodlord in starbow is very different from the broodlord in sc2 as well as the guardian in BW, It is quick (same speed as unstimmed marines) and has only 175 hp and is fearly cheap, and has great dps. There is a small broodling bug (if you shoot a unit with less than 25 hp then no broodlings spawn, which is understandable atm as the mechanic is activated by the first shot), but that is minor compared to how it feels. You can turtle as zerg and rush for broodlords as a nice strat. I am not saying it is broken or bad, but just raising awereness about the broodlord. Do we want it to be fast and "light", or big and bad (as the ultra)? Now it almost feels like a (better) voidray that can only shoot ground.
On January 06 2013 06:22 Xiphias wrote: I'm down for a tournament. We should probably wait untill it is out of beta. I'm down for casting the tournament as well. We can split the games in two if decembercalm wants to cast too.
Maybe I am the only one to realize this but the broodlord in starbow is very different from the broodlord in sc2 as well as the guardian in BW, It is quick (same speed as unstimmed marines) and has only 175 hp and is fearly cheap, and has great dps. There is a small broodling bug (if you shoot a unit with less than 25 hp then no broodlings spawn, which is understandable atm as the mechanic is activated by the first shot), but that is minor compared to how it feels. You can turtle as zerg and rush for broodlords as a nice strat. I am not saying it is broken or bad, but just raising awereness about the broodlord. Do we want it to be fast and "light", or big and bad (as the ultra)? Now it almost feels like a (better) voidray that can only shoot ground.
when i just look at the brood lord without using it i in vision a huge bad ass scary zergy battle ship feeling a faster moving broodlord kind of feels off but thats just my opinion
I'm down for a tournament. We should probably wait untill it is out of beta. I'm down for casting the tournament as well. We can split the games in two if decembercalm wants to cast too.
Maybe I am the only one to realize this but the broodlord in starbow is very different from the broodlord in sc2 as well as the guardian in BW, It is quick (same speed as unstimmed marines) and has only 175 hp and is fearly cheap, and has great dps. There is a small broodling bug (if you shoot a unit with less than 25 hp then no broodlings spawn, which is understandable atm as the mechanic is activated by the first shot), but that is minor compared to how it feels. You can turtle as zerg and rush for broodlords as a nice strat. I am not saying it is broken or bad, but just raising awereness about the broodlord. Do we want it to be fast and "light", or big and bad (as the ultra)? Now it almost feels like a (better) voidray that can only shoot ground.
On January 06 2013 08:49 Kabel wrote: What you mean with the feedback issue?
Is not the nullify (feedback) suppose to only drain energy from the spellcaster but harm those around in aoe? In johnnyzerg's unittester it also killed the spellcaster. I might have missunderstood the patch notes though.
Also the crossair lift has issues, but i'm sure you got that.
Nullify (Feedback) is suppose to deal dmg to the caster AND nearby units equal to the energy drained from the caster. So the caster can die if the energy value is above its life value. It does not drain energy from nearby units though. If a Vessel with 200 energy hovers above some tanks and is Nullified, the vessel and the nearby tanks will explode. (Small area of effect) But all of this comes down to balance. If its too good, bad, weird, then it will be adjusted.
I will get a new patch up today to fix the weird issues from yesterday, including the Corsair bug. I plan to have the patch up at 18.00 central european time. (6 hours from now)
On January 06 2013 06:03 scCassius wrote: Interesting mod, bad name.
Ignore scCassius, he's only got 73 posts and is probably one of those people that likes everything to sound as '"bad-ass" as possible. Starbow forever! ~~~~~☆
Void Shell back, that sounds interesting. 5 target limit within an area of effect then? Vortex I imagine is mainly for removing either small chunks of light (or 'medium', like Queens and Banelings) enemy units from battle or preventing harassment like zergling run-bys, marines and medics dropped from a dropship etc.
Nullify seems lame to me, though it might be more interesting if it actually DIDN'T damage the target hit, but only those around it, like causing a small shockwave to emit from the (hit target) caster to which said target caster is immune. Feedback still exists on the Dark Archon, right? Mostly I don't like the doubling up and it might be too strong on groups of bunched Ghosts/Infestors/HT, but then sure, we are meant to be splitting! I just suspect it's going to be too harsh.
I'm more than happy to clarify any numbers for things like exact SC2-equivalent cooldowns for BW units (i.e. the Scout's attacks) if you like, but I still need to call Blizzard to sort out the account lock (see earlier post, I think) to be able to test the new version. I noticed in a VOD (well they're .flvs though...) that the zergling attack rate looks to have been made an amount I suggested earlier (it was either .555 without A.Glands or .444 with A.Glands) to be a good amount between SC2 and BW, which I suggested because we can still spawn lings faster than in BW, so a slower attack rate than BW still made sense.
Since then though, I also mentioned that it turned out the exact equivalent number of BW frames per second for SC2 (normal speed) was not 18, but rather 17.777777, so (with 10 and 8 frame cooldowns in mind instead of the BW 8 and 6) they should really be .5625 and .45 if you want to be nicely precise.
Assuming (with reason, as P.Cannons have the same rates) the Scout Air to Air attack was meant to be 22.2222222 rather than just 22.0, it should be a 1.25 cooldown and the Air to Ground should be 1.6875 (would display 1.69 in game but you can be more specific in the editor).
As for BLs, I look forward to checking, but in advance, the numbers to consider not counting broodlings were (converted into SC2 normal time): Guardian: 11.85185 damage/game second with 150hp @ 2 supply and 150/200 Brood Lord: 8.00 damage/game second with 225hp @ 4 supply and 300/250.
If they had 9.5 range like BLs but no broodlings, I'd prefer Guardians back than S2 Brood Lords, because a lot of people's complaints are the broodlings preventing movement too easily in large numbers. They do also effectively increase the range broodling attack range further if there is anything to target within the 9.5 range (as you can launch at fellow broodlings to create another wave that can attack a nexus that is 12 range away from the BLs).
2.25 speed sounds cool but unnecessary to me. The way air feels (with flying over obstacles) it often feels faster than it actually is, say 20% faster. This is feeling rather than consistent fact based on any arbitrarily picked distance involving obstacles, but with that in mind, the 2.25÷1.2= *drum roll* 1.875! Hey lookie here! Carriers, BLs and BCs all had a speed of 1.40625 in BW and in WoL , only carriers were buffed inexplicably to 1.875 from 1.40625 (33.33% increase). BCs later got buffed to the same amount, but BLs were left alone because.... they were more popular to use????!? Even if SC2 BLs didn't need it as much as the other units (very arguable), the point is that 1.875 feels much better, so regardless of using guardians or BLs, I personally think they should have 1.875 movement speed in Starbow. 2.25 is probably overkill and will make them feel too different from the Starcraft units they were (for the memories!) and might be too easily to escape with. 1.875 still feels slow, but it means you can micro them a little more, like with BCs and Carriers. As for 175hp, I need to test the unit to voice my opinion on that and I haven't seen the attack/damage/cost of them yet (thought they were still 4 supply), but I'll post again when I get to. Keep it up guys!
Oh, actually, I remember more that I wanted to discuss! I've previously said balancing hydralisks (in normal SC2, anyway) around 100hp might be better, due to (slightly better compatibility with transfusion and thus synergy with queens, not quite so stuffed by colossi and storm considering they are much more expensive than BW hydras), but I saw a game cast by Xiphias or DecembersCalm where Gossen (is that you, Kabel?) continually had masses of hydras punished by storm and it and it turned out he'd failed to get the +20 life upgrade for them all game. The trouble with this was that frankly, he didn't really split or micromanage them very well or much, so I wonder how strong Storm is and whether the +20 life upgrade is overkill. When I'd spoken about 100 life Hydralisks, it was for normal SC2 usually, where they are a stronger (per single unit, that is) and more expensive unit, so they need (-____-) the extra durability to be vaguely not-crap as a 50 gas and 2 supply unit. In BW and Starbow, hydralisks are 1 supply, 75 mineral, 25 gas units, i.e. more expendable and deserve to be punished heavily by storm, so I don't think this upgrade is a good thing unless storm deals more than 80 damage. Also, I think you use the icon for +20 hydra life that used to be used for the upgrade that gives +2 armour to burrowed lurkers. 1 - I hope that is still in the game because it was a really cool idea. 2 - The icon suited that more, I thought! Swap the two icons? It's only in beta right now and we're intelligent people, so we can handle the slight confusion!
I also think the healing on creep looks too strong, though I haven't seen the exact rate yet, but I foresee it being nerfed at some point in Starbow once more games have been played.
Hydralisk now has 90 hp due at zea attack buff (9x2) due at ling hp buff (40hp) due at stimpack buff. Hydralisk has 2 upgrades: movement speed and range.
If feed back is removed and just this nullify spell exists, it should be good. I think this is what happened so there shouldn't be a problem with it anymore.
I will start to look closer at details and exact values now since this mod is soon out of beta. I do not intend to recreate every aspect of BW though, down to decimals ^^. I just use BW as a guideline. But of course, if a certain value needs to be exact in order to recreate a certain unit interaction that was good for the game, I will do it. Dont get me wrong. Its good that you and others examines the numbers too. Facts are always nice to base decisions on. But since the meta game is different in Starbow, due to other units, mechanics and abilities, certain values might need to be changed. (Compared to BW and SC2)
I imagine it must be hard for the readers in this thread to get an overview what actually is in the game at this point. I have been bad at updating the main page and good patch notes. I aim to fix the opening post before january 21, since that is the day it goes out of beta, no matter what. (I need to make progress)
Starbow might not be the most amazing name. People says it sounds like cheap cider or washing powder ^^ I needed to call it something though. Starcraft 2 Brood War was already taken. And I have no imagination -.-
At this point, even though the name isn't as pretty as it could, I learned it as Starbow. No matter what else you ever call it, it will always be starbow for me.
Thanks for those details, JohnnyZerg, things are changing all over the place, so often. Watch a new VOD and changes within one week! (At least when I watch casts, this happens!) Is the lurker upgrade there though? If not, PUT IT BACK, Kabel, IT IS LEGENDARY! Balance the game around having it! Too cool not to have a conditional only-burrowed upgrade for them! Brood War didn't have that, either, so it's a step in the direction of interesting new features.
Broodwar 2 ... or ... Broodcraft
Come on, you think it should be renamed and then you suggest far less original and definitely worse names?? :o Also, it's not just a BW clone or hybrid, so that doesn't fit.
On January 07 2013 01:41 Traceback wrote: If feed back is removed and just this nullify spell exists, it should be good. I think this is what happened so there shouldn't be a problem with it anymore.
Feedback's animation is awesome and it' usually (I beliee) considered pretty strong but balanced. In BW it had 10 range but I think we were using the SC2 9, so there shouldn't have been a problem with it and I just think we'd be better off keeping feedback and making the other ability change, but yes, we can try it, of course!
On January 07 2013 02:19 Kabel wrote: But since the meta game is different in Starbow, due to other units, mechanics and abilities, certain values might need to be changed.
I have always agreed with this. My idea though is that if we're going for numbers similar to BW, it's better to have them spot on and then check for balance rather than pretty similar and trying to check for balance, seeing as either way, we don't know if it'll prove correct for Starbow, thus I recommend similar numbers at least be very close.
Question: Are stalkers fine with the 4 range of 'goons before the Duality Charge upgrade? Might it be better to give them 5 and make the upgrade grant only +1? Zergling life and tank vs light damage both being 40 instead of 35: Good that you're maintaining that previous dynamic where +1 carapace for zerglings allows them to survive a blast (with 1 life) so long as tanks have no weapon upgrades, but +1 vehicle weapon upgrades negate the benefit of even +3 carapace of lings. VW upgrades only cost 100/100 anyway while carapace is 150/150 so it's not asking much for a short=lived benefit that allows for specific and interesting timings for zerg vs terran. My question is why buff either? JohnnyZerg said due to stim pack buff? How strong are they now then? You had them firing for way less than the BW 12.5 seconds but doubling the rate of fire instead of +62.5%(BW) or +50%(SCII), surely you haven't made them stronger again?!
Plague used to take off 295 hit points if the unit had that many or kept getting healed for long enough (people usually thought it was 300 but it was just short), but I thought either you, Xiphias, or DecembersCalm stated that it was much weaker (in Starbow in one of your casts).
Rightio. I forgot to mention that to me, while people DO need to learn to use more of their gas from an earlier point (or else not take it so soon), it feels like it might be too gas heavy a game right now, like there aren't enough minerals to go with the gas for spending. Spider mine drag seems to keep chasing stalkers that blink away out of (what should be the) tracking range of the mines. If a unit is fast enough (needs to be like speedling speed at least or a stalker that blinks away), it shouldn't still be guaranteed to be hit, I think. Can these mines re-burrow in place where they last lost sight of a unit if the unit gets out of range, like in BW? That was always a good mechanic, I thought.
EPT
Enjoyed watching it.
