EPT[A] Starbow - Page 155
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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purakushi
United States3307 Posts
 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Damage Yeah, damage is pretty different coming from BW. Even with the modifiers of armoured, light, biological, etc in SC2, it is just not the same. Things seemed more interesting in BW, and I do feel the damage to shields from BW is better. I am not even sure if this is implemented in SC2BW, but the mod would probably be a good starting reference. | ||
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vrumFondel
Russian Federation42 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Thank you for all your ideas. As usual, I look at the most elegant solutions that makes a unit more interesting to interact with. I think one way to go is to make Immortals more rewarded by micro. If P micros them, their efficency increases in combat. That is barely the case with the SC2 Immortal. Things I consider: 1. Make the hardened shield require activation via an ability. 2. Make the Immortal have a shield that covers other units too. 1. If I add a activation via an ability, there must be something new and fresh with the shield. Its a lame feeling to try Starbow just to find out that a unit functions in a worse way, compared to SC2, without anything new has been added to it. - Wtf my Immortals just died in the combat! - Yeah but you must activate the shield. - LOL!! ok, lets go re.. My Immortals died in this game too but I activated the shield! - Yeah but the shield only reduces 20 damage per shot.. - man this just sucks.. Preferably the shield must offer uses in a new way too. There is a huge downside (it must be activaded) followed by a good advantage. (It can be used in more situations than the old Hardened Shield could) Maybe the shield can look something like this: - Upon activation it lasts 15 seconds. Cooldown 60 seconds. (Downside compared to SC2.. ) - The shield reduces ALL damage to 5. (Advantage compared to SC2... It can be useful vs more targets now..) - The shield slows down the movement speed of the Immortal by X% (For balance and to give P a stronger decision to take) (Its just an example..) A even simpler version: - Upon activation the shield lasts 15 seconds. Cooldown 60 seconds. - Reduces damage above 10 to 10. (As in SC2.. Its an advantage compared to Starbow atleast, where the shield reduces it by 20..) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9yMdk.jpg) 2. The main reason I consider to make the shield give a buff to friendly units is because it spreads out the Immortals and the army. You do not want 2 Immortals to overlap since that is waste of shield. The two concerns are: - Exactly what would the shield do? - It looks ugly when the Immortals touch each other..>.< ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BtWsP.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a19B6.jpg) | ||
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purakushi
United States3307 Posts
#1 sounds like a good start. It is balanceable on different levels, is specific in its purpose yet multifunctional, and because of the timing/decision-making required to use it effectively, one (player/spectator) will be able to tell better versus worse use of the immortal. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
I also think that the immortal's mineral/gas cost should be more mineral heavy so that more immortals cuts into zealot production. The other question with #1 is how EMP factors into the ability. Maybe decrease the time remaining on the ability? Get rid of the ability? Disable it from being used for a certain period of time (forcing EMPs before it is used)? These questions should be factored into the design before being balanced. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
And be carefull about buffing, because the only thing toss needs atm is a nerf. You want to change the immortal in a way that is easy to understand yet has an interesting dynamic for micro (look at the reaver, bad unit if not used properly, near to OP in good hands). Also I'd like to see a slight nerf on stalkers, with them having blink and being easier to control than dragoons, you create a beefy high mobility unit with very good dps. I'd say -1 or -2 to their damage and reduce their hp/shields to 80/80. Toss can be really greedy earlygame due to stalkers being such a wellrounded unit. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I can make EMP disable the shield if its active. I can add a validator to the shield that makes it able to be activated ONLY if the Immortal has shield. So if the shields are at 0, it can´t be activated.. @what makes the hardened shield require micro? It depends on when the players use it. Imagine a fight between Stalkers + Immortals vs Stalkers + Immortals. You want to force the enemy to "waste" the shield so he activates it at a bad moment. Then you back away and engage again when the shields are depleted etc.. Same goes vs Siege tanks and spider mines.. IF the Immortal is slowed down when the shield is active, you can´t activate the shield too early since you won´t reach the enemy.. if you activate it too late the Immortals will already take damage.. And if P is not paying attention the Immortal will not add get the shield at all in combat.. Of course this is not the most exiting micro ability in the game. But it might be something atleast.. or something we can continue to think about | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Activate Amove into siege line ????? Profit I cant see micro part. Nerf stalkers hps => 80/80. Nerf damage to 12. Add bonus vs armored. Nerf move speed to 2.81. Remove immortal. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Please bring some ideas instead of just saying that units shall be removed when they are not perfect..... I remove stuff when there is no way to fix it or it adds nothing to the game. There are still things to do with the Immortal before it will even be considered to be removed. And I have told you so many times why I prefer to have Stalker/Immortal in the game than just the Dragoon.. or just the Stalker.. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
And i suggested what ability we can add to immortal. Shield reducing damage only from one direction. Maybe make immortal stationary when using it, so it wont be possible to atack into siege lines. Gives skill which will reward smart positioning and micro (to block shots, disabling and repositioning shiled between atacks) and make immortal useful not only vs huge burst unit. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
The objective of the design is to turn battles into a symphony of skill, not a crash test of balls. Not ever instrument in a symphony has to be a good soloist to fit in. The above positional idea seems ok, but it seems like your turning the immortal into a spellcaster. Seeing as zealots are already so strong, I'm not sure how a damage reduction AOE on them would be balanced. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But why would we want to keep redundant, boring, antimicro unit? Thats the way the SC2 Immortal is designed... Thats why I say we must find ways to NOT let it be a redudant, boring, antimicro unit... IF there is no way to do that, yes then it might be removed.. Stalkers could use nerf vs bio and imho they could use buff vs units like carrier. Yes Stalkers are very strong vs bio. Maybe an adjustment in the Stalker damage can be made. Or stronger heal? Seems like 1 Stalker kill 1 marine that is healed by Medic.,. O_o And i suggested what ability we can add to immortal. Shield reducing damage only from one direction. Maybe make immortal stationary when using it, so it wont be possible to atack into siege lines. Gives skill which will reward smart positioning and micro (to block shots, disabling and repositioning shiled between atacks) and make immortal useful not only vs huge burst unit. Would you consider a unit that worked like this a "redundant, boring, antimicro" unit? Unfortunatly this is not realistic to make. Prevent damage from one angle only is hard as hell to create. But if you simplify your idea then we might get something on the hook.. The objective of the design is to turn battles into a symphony of skill, not a crash test of balls. Not ever instrument in a symphony has to be a good soloist to fit I'm. Poetry! | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But P is the only race that has no on/off units that can toggle between movement and stationary.. Z has lurkers and T has tanks.. Just saying.. Hm.. Both Lurkers and siege tanks sacrifices movement to gain firepower. The Immortal sacrifices movement to gain strong shield .. Mobile shield battery anyone? O_o Or something else? : K Edit: haha P has Warp Prism though ^^ | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Would you consider a unit that worked like this a "redundant, boring, antimicro" unit? Unfortunatly this is not realistic to make. Prevent damage from one angle only is hard as hell to create. But if you simplify your idea then we might get something on the hook.. You never know how would unit like that work out in real game, but at least immortal wouldnt loose its efficiency early as defensive tool, and would loose some as amove antisiege unit. I agree creating such ability can be hard. But i have seen something similar in raynor party i belive. There is one minigame where you can rotate shield on immortal to bounce back balls of energy. Rotating shield like this maybe could be base for that. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
Immortals have hardened shields up at all times... until they attack. Its not "just another spell for protoss," it is a micro mechanic, just like carrier micro in BW. (In that it is not a spell that increase efficiency). This makes it so that immortals cannot 1A into terran with the rest of the army, because they would get focused after the first shot. The key for this sort of micro would be that you would have to individually tell your immortals to move through the tank line without firing (there is no hold fire on immortals i think). It would also be interesting to watch protoss players try to blink there stalkers all over the place to spread while non-attack moving their immortals through the line. From that we can also do some buffs such as make hardened shields reduced dmg to 10 instead of 20 (5 I think is a bit too much). We could have an upgrade which makes it so that immortals have a second shot before the shields go down (idea). Do immortals hardened shields catch splash dmg? If so, then maybe take away the splash reduction of the shields. (A tank shoots 2 immortals side by side. The target takes the 10 dmg, but the splash give the full splash.) *The h.shields would only toggle if the immortal has >= 10shields. *Maybe get even fancier and have it so that each shot by the immortal takes a nominal amount of shields away as well (5 shields points per shot?) *After firing, Immortal must wait 5 in-game seconds without attacking or being attacked before the hardened shields come back online EDIT: "Our shields cannot withstand firepower of this magnitude!" ---Immortal, talking to himself | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
Please consider the idea i posted, it will still be a strong defensive unit, but limited in its offensive uses, without tweaking much. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I love it at first glance! Its both simple and rewarding. It has dual uses in PvT: deal high dmg or absord damage, but it can´t do both at the same time. How would P use Immortals in PvP or PvZ? Would it ever be useful to NOT attack? @feedback at Solids idea Ok, here's something that might work. Reduce the immortal movement speed to something simular like the reaver and make hardened shields a passive ability that gets activated once the immortal gets attacked, duration of 1-2 seconds and a cooldown of 3-4 seconds, tune it how you want. This way you'd make it a babysit unit that can be very usefull, but counterable by pure mech, trying to snipe the warpprism out of the air and timing a focustarget on the immortal with siegetanks. This sounds like a cool dynamic, huge nerf without making it useless, it will still be a valuable unit in good hands. No need to have 2 units with similar move speed like the Reaver and both depend on Warp Prism for transportation. I don´t mind the Immortal being slow and I don´t mind the Warp Prism being able to interact with other units.. But I dont think a lower permanent movement speed in itself would make the Immortal more interesting. I think it will be hard to keep track of shields activating and deactivating. It might work in smaller combats, like shoot 1 shot with the Vulture to activate the shield.. when the shield is on cooldown, the other units can attack the Immortal and harm it .. But it sounds messy in large combats with lots of units and shields activating or waiting for cooldown. How can the Immortal controller micro it better? How can the opponent micro vs the Immortal better? Most combats lasts between 5-25 seconds. I don´t think there will be so much room to manipulate or abuse the shields. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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