EPT[A] Starbow - Page 157
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
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lodi
Canada30 Posts
For minefields, you could absorb one mine, back up, absorb another mine, backup, and gradually clear the whole minefield without taking any damage, but if you just attack-move into a minefield, the first mine will be absorbed, and the rest will hit for their full 125 damage + splash. And as for shield management, I meant stuff like pulling back immortals so that they could regenerate shields. Similar mechanic to what you do with Archons, except more useful and practical on a mid ranged unit. And perhaps there would even be an opportunity to micro immortals in between, say, lurker shots so that the immortal isn't hit in between hardened shield activations. This would be more important if the delay was 1.5 or 2s, but that might make them too weak in the siege/mine situations I described above. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On November 16 2012 11:45 X3GoldDot wrote: i seriosly dont know whats wrong with immortals that warrants so much changes, they arent that boring of a unit and you can easily buff other units to counter immortals The current immortal is one of several things wrong in PvT in that it is a unit that has little interaction with other units, very little unique micro factors, and makes it REALLY EASY for protoss to take zealot stalker immortal and 1A click across a well prepared / set-up / seigetank line and minefield. The general consensus is that protoss SHOULD NOT be able to throw their units into a line of sieged tanks and mines and come out on top. (In brood war, a well prepared line of tanks and mines absolutely destroyed frontal 1A2A3A attacks. That was the strength of the seige tank. No immortal / anti tank unit existed.) | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Lalala relevant to our immortal discussion. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On November 16 2012 12:08 Chronopolis wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PxSsD_6CO38 Lalala relevant to our immortal discussion. Everything mentioned would give Terran a buff O.O Oh QXC, you could have at least seemed unbiased. He does give some good thoughts about design though, but it really wasn't that indepth. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On November 16 2012 12:53 decemberscalm wrote: Everything mentioned would give Terran a buff O.O Oh QXC, you could have at least seemed unbiased. He does give some good thoughts about design though, but it really wasn't that indepth. I know, I sort of cringe a bit when I see people (I'm talking about you you, Avilo) be so biased. It's like bw, except now there's actual incentive to do so, because blizzard just might make a change if you implant the idea in them. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On November 16 2012 13:06 Chronopolis wrote: I know, I sort of cringe a bit when I see people (I'm talking about you you, Avilo) be so biased. It's like bw, except now there's actual incentive to do so, because blizzard just might make a change if you implant the idea in them. QXC would love Starbow. Almost every unit in the Terran Arsenal has an ability. Wait a minute, every unit in the Terran arsenal DOES have an ability!!!! No wonder playing Toss feels so boring to me. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On November 16 2012 15:24 Danko__ wrote: Goliath dont have any ability. ARGH! Forgot about that one. I don't really have a MU I use it for. Vs carrier you kinda need lockdown or wraiths instead. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
positional play is very important.. and it's even more fun if it really raise the skill ceiling. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On November 14 2012 02:48 Kabel wrote: An intense PvT with lots of back and forth action: http://drop.sc/275201 (Castable?) | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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asphyxia88
94 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On November 17 2012 10:48 Laertes wrote: Me and december are skype chatting right now. He feels that toss needs a redesign and I feel that redesign is much simpler than he makes it out to be. In short, I think we should bring back the BW DRAGOON WITHOUT BLINK. It does not sit well with mech to have blinking stalkers and hardened shield immortals. This is all we really need, and as to cite reasons why, I think its best to let december speak for himself. EDIT: Skype convo taken down on December's request... As you can see, December seems to know what's up, is there any chance these ideas can be put into effect? To sum it up, I think we need to bring back BW dragoon without blink, and as for Z, we probably need to use maps in honesty, but maybe the change can be helped by using smile's hydra idea. Tanks overall need to be buffed, thoughts? Yes. Please bring back the dragoon. My favorite toss unit. I love the idea of a large, bulky, massable unit with low firing speed (I am being serious). It made toss feel very different and it was fun to fight against! | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
You should be able to deter attacks at fortified areas with a skeleton crew. Generally this should include an AOE element; for the most part these are the reaver, lurker, and siege tank units. Then you need a blocking element like pylons/cannons, bunkers/depots, and spines. Right now units clump up, move through chokes and ramps flawlessly and generally have longer range than SCBW. While not always present, the lack of 50 percent damage chance also affects this. This makes the death ball extremely potent vs these skeleton crew defense of the opponent warranting you're own mobile army to deal with attacks. This leads me to my next topic. How often do we see Spines being able to handle the incredibly potency of a small ball of Toss or Terran units? We saw walls of buildings and sunkens get destroyed in BW, but not so effortlessly as we see mid game Starbow and SC2. If defensive units like the lurker and siege tank are just too plain good open field, they obviously need to be changed in regards to their set up time or speed. To compensate for the SC2 engine allowing choke points to be navigate so effortlessly, something has to give be it AOE buffs or static D buffs. Unit Micro and Positions should matter: Reference Articles: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121769 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126992 Because death balls are the most efficient way of dealing damage, and the way sc2 engine clumps units, we still see it used for mobile engagements whenever aoe isn't present (or at times when you can quickly prevent it by quickly bursting down aoe units like lurker/HT/Reaver). If units generally deal less damage per shot, and have less range we'll see more micro. Sure, we have around the same numbers of BW but we're dealing with the SC2 engine here. Everything happens slightly faster than SC2, and everything is more condensed. Everything is faster. On that note it wouldn't be extremely harmful to make units slightly slower. Starcraft should be a game of mouse dexterity where you can gain advantage via micro. It wouldn't kill us to see the moving shot make a return. For it to really have an impact the scale of damage should be reduced to at least Brood War levels. Maps: Reference Articles: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=379838 We're currently using tiny maps with clustered bases. The travel time to the enemy base is comparatively small compared to BW. This has several effects. Most importantly is that army movement isn't tactical. On most maps you've got complete control of the map by simply parking your army in the center with a xel naga tower. This diminishes any sort of tactical maneuvering. I'm going to be honest, the maps we currently have frankly are frankly terrible. The best map for good Starbow style gameplay, Lunar Destination, got removed on EU because it simply can't work with Starbow units. On Lunar, bases are spread out significantly enough that harassment is a great option. Most bases have enough of a choke you could expect to defend it with a reaver and some cannons. The map is large enough you can maneuver against the opponent’s army rather. On Match Point Toss has a significant advantage because the bases are spread out and therefore easier to harass with things like high ground warp prism, blink, warp ins, reaver drop. The game should be built with Terrain like Match Point in mind where Terrain can mean everything. I don't mind the lack of 50% damage reduction on high ground as long as properly built defense puts a proper hurt on deathballs. Toss probably has the best defensive units right now, one reaver, one High Templar are absolutely amazing. If bases are more spread out, maps are large (or units simply slower) we can see things like corsair play, mutalisk play, more vulture poke ins. One example: Sacred Sands doesn't get incredibly interesting until both players are forced to take a base besides one of the fourt easily defended expansions they start close to. Then we start seeing things like zealot run bys and the sort more common. One note about blink, it absolutely makes terrain and positioning irrelevant, I feel like it should go. There is a reason warp in on high ground got removed right? Perhaps we could force it to being not allowed to jump up cliffs so it’s not such an easy defense by passer. Do we want to see pokes and prods at various bases back and forth? Or do we want to just watch cool explosions at the center of the map until someone is forced to lose a base. Sure we can harass right now and see how far our opponents multitasking can stretch. But isn't is simply more effective to make a better ball of units and crush our foe, then annihilate his petty defences at his expansions guaranteeing the game? And my final note on Z: We have to figure out what to do with Z in terms of SBOW economy. Do we want Z to be able to fight a fair battle for control of the middle of the map? Or do we want him to be the oppertunist, sending ling, muta and hydra forces to snipe out of position units, not yet build foritifactions, and rely on his strong defences at home since his army can't go toe to toe vs T or P mid map. Right now due to map reasons, being the opportunist isn't really viable. Z needs map control or he dies to losing hatches. Unfortunately, his defenses are not that good vs the high dps onslaught of T and P groups. His best hope is fighting head on with lurkers and lings, not using spine crawlers and buying himself time with muta and ling harass. His best way currently is eliminating the enemy observer or wiping the T army out with a flank. Something that could also help is doing the Brood War thing; make gas guysers relatively split up. If Z wants his precious gas he’ll have to split up his bases which create for more interesting gameplay. Maps like Deadelus are the absolute worst offenders. Good luck defending either expansion you take. Better save that money for more lings or a muta switch and hope he didn't build corsairs. Thanks for reading about my current thoughts on the state of Starbow and the absolute laundry list of things that could be changed to make it better. I know it seemed like I'm picking on Toss a lot, but that is simply because Toss is essentially slightly nerfed SC2 Toss that still has plenty of things that makes SC2 so much worse than BW. TLDR: 1. Fortified areas should deter large groups of enemy units unless they are okay with taking significant casultures. 2. Unit Micro and Positioning should matter: Decrease range of units? Decrease damage? Add moving shot? 3. Maps are SC2 deathball style because small amounts of defence can't fight large forces, we need better maps, no xel naga so manuvering and scouting is important. 4. Z doesn't play by the same rules, what to do about them, fight evenly all game long or stay alive long enough to get tier 3? | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
What's the point? | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
The problem is, terran wants mech late game right now, but can't get mech early game. Any sort of transition from bio to mech tech, even half bio half mech, limits how much army terran can have, this is a fundamental RTS concept. Switching tech paths limits units. This means that any sort of timing attack on the toss is sevearly weakened, especially compounded with the fact that any sort of tank timings/contains get shut down hard since the protoss has a pure anti tank/contain unit (the immortal). Not only this, but since the immortal is gas heavy and the zealot is mineral heavy, it's really easy to go zealot+immortal, which is a perfect composition for breaking contains. These problems don't even involve things like blink mobility or void shield or anything else. Those problems also compound. I think the above problems though are the most important though since they affect the early game, which then has major implications throughout the whole rest of the game. | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
On November 17 2012 15:38 Von wrote: SC2 Broodwar has been done. If you guys can't come up with more creative solutions than bringing back brood units .. well .. What's the point? dude, for peace sake. go do something else then. there's no point in making a post like that. | ||
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