First order of business: stop thinking solely in terms of unit compositions or basing any of your decisions on such conclusions. This is not SC2 and as SiskosGoatee has said a few times already, what should interest you are interactions - not merely what counters what, but how does it do that. Immortal-stalker-zealot relationship you mentioned is based on numbers only.
You gotta understand that I can´t explain my thought process into every detail in my posts. Maybe I should be more clear......
When I explained a possible way to change the Immortal I focused on its new role in terms of unit compositions, since I suggested it to be a core unit, rather than a "special" unit. - What role the unit would have in different match ups and in what situations it might be a useful alternative, instead of Stalkers or Zealots... But that does not mean I do not consider any other aspects of it.............
As I have explained already, I think the lack of interaction is a problem with the SC2 Immortal. Yes, it counters mech, But it does it in an uninteresting way, both for the opponent and for the P-player... Thats why I consider to remove it or rework it... And as I also said at the end of my Immortal post, even if the Immortal becomes a "core-unit" there is STILL a problem in the way the unit interacts.
And with interact I mean both what players are able to do with it, against it, and in what way the unit beats other units.
Yes, the relation between Zealots, Stalkers and Immortals is a game of numbers. What becomes interesting is the way players, with their micro and decision making, can use them. Stalkers offers that potential via Blink. A skilled player can defeat Immortals with proper blink micro. A good player can surround enemy Stalkers or Immortals with speed zealots etc. And the Immortal could need some twist too....
So my intention is NOT to make the Immortal a unit that will auto-win vs Stalkers. Which is a problem with Immortal vs mech. Unit counters should not revolve around "Unit A beats unit B in all situations" Rather should it be something like this "Unit A can beat unit B UNLESS or IF happens"
Bring your ideas. question what I write or add perspectives to the discussion. But please do not tell me how I should think.
@Kabel Maps: Maps and defenders advantage are all intertwined. Defenders advantage in SC2 and Starbow simply hinges on the fact that your expansions are close enough for your army to reach and save, static D will only buy time or ward off small groups of harass.
In BW it was something much more solid due to pathing, map size, and movement speed of the units across the map (the game simply progressed slower).
If you simply have these tiny SC2 maps with wide open expansions in the middle designed to draw the game to a close as soon as the easy to defend bases mine out you're simply promoting this head on army vs army engagement all of the time, xel naga's don't help that problem.
Don't fall into the trap of how Blizzard nerfed the siege tank because of the map pool, aka way too strong on those tiny terrible maps like steps of war.
Moving shot: The units that depended on moving shot the most were the mutalisk, corsair (to be able to fight the muta), vultures, and gliding shots for archons. Keep in note, drones could also use a moving shot and were not melee .01 range. IF you wanted to fight off a probe trying to block with a drone you could.
The Z Problem: They do well but that's a balance issue, not a design one. Right now Z mu's (besides ZvZ) are a shadow of their former BW selves. This has everything to do with maps, death balls, and how defenders advantage works.
Right now the race works pretty similarly to Terran and Protoss. Build the ideal counter to the opponents army and win map control. If you can't simply build an army to crush your opponent (preferably at the last possible second) you just die. This is also how SC2 Zerg works.
We're forced into this sort of scenario because even small clumps toss and terran make static D utterly worthless.
Meanwhile in BW we'd constantly see 3-5 sunkens defending a base, most of the time behind important tech buildings that make for nice walls> Terran and Toss are forced to wait until they have the tech to break it or an overwhelming army advantage. Meanwhile Terran and Toss can go for drops, poke and find holes in the defense (only possible due to spaced maps and slower unit speed, position on the map matters). Z during this time also goes for underhanded things like ling run bys, snipes, drops, and muta harass. Corsairs by themselves are utterly invalidated due to queens and how easy it is to pop spores. As a hilarious side effect Protoss's who don't know they exist don't have an anti muta counter ready in time for the switch.
Corsairs by themselves are utterly invalidated due to queens and how easy it is to pop spores. As a hilarious side effect Protoss's who don't know they exist don't have an anti muta counter ready in time for the switch.
-1 I have used it several times corsairs vs zerg, and they gave me great results. 5 corsairs is the optimal number, should not kill queen, but drones and ovelords besides avoiding swich of mutalisks by the zerg. I use ffe into double stargate into mass stalker + reavers, having always with me 5 or 7 corsairs useful throughout the game.
A comment from one of the videos "would you pass on my notes to Gossen for me? It looks like the spider mines only do decent damage against armored units. They're obviously un-usably worthless against most units. I can't believe how many mines a single zealot can soak up- the protoss can just a-move through them and doesn't even have to split his units. The mines need to be better- in bw, 2 mines would kill a zealot or dragoon, now it takes like 10 by the look. For that matter, aren't damage and armor types lame mechanics?" "It also seems sort of boring that units auto target the spider mines as they're going down. It would be interesting if they had lower priority so that you had to manually target them, but instead they're being used more as meat shields than as weapons. That's a pretty boring mine, imo." -Natespank
@Corsairs Got any replays? That seems more like a serious error on the Zerg's part. He has plenty of easy counters vs double stargate and should easily see it before it pops. Queens should generally have creep to easily gather all three queens you have at that point to ward them off and transfuse while getting hydra tech and spores. I can't wait for global because I'd love to play vs your sair play. On NA it has been pretty sub optimal. All that tech and money invested in sairs with usually minimal damage.
you need to bring some SC2 unites to change gameplay a little ...
Teran is the same as BW...gameplay are the same...
protoss also almoust the same....
zerg again the same....
Unites like medivac vikings have place in terran army ... Also i sugest made Flaying reaver Skyver and mobile shild battery sentury can do the job...rouch ..as T2 unite...
planty of SC2 unites can change gameplay but you kabel made game to be simply BW ? that is the fact...
Flame auto turret can be also a gem changer for TvP , Ghost marine drop instead of emp... planty of thing can be done to change this game but this is Bw...for now..
I love that when people say: "That wasnt like that in BW! Mines and tanks 1 shoted everything! 2 corsairs raped 100 mutas! Goons 2 shoted marines!". Really... People. Go play some BW if you want to compare.
On November 18 2012 02:46 bole wrote: This game is to much the same as BW....
you need to bring some SC2 unites to change gameplay a little ...
Teran is the same as BW...gameplay are the same...
protoss also almoust the same....
zerg again the same....
Unites like medivac vikings have place in terran army ... Also i sugest made Flaying reaver Skyver and mobile shild battery sentury can do the job...rouch ..as T2 unite...
planty of SC2 unites can change gameplay but you kabel made game to be simply BW ? that is the fact...
Flame auto turret can be also a gem changer for TvP , Ghost marine drop instead of emp... planty of thing can be done to change this game but this is Bw...for now..
On November 18 2012 02:53 Danko__ wrote: I love that when people say: "That wasnt like that in BW! Mines and tanks 1 shoted everything! 2 corsairs raped 100 mutas! Goons 2 shoted marines!". Really... People. Go play some BW if you want to compare.
Why are people getting uneasy whenever BW is mentioned in terms of Starbow, I don't get it. It's a good game, very playable and exciting, and SBow was supposed to build upon that to become something everybody could call a proper sequel. It's not like we're talking about completely remaking BW in SC2, stop suggesting that; our theories about mixing both together are supposed to help us build a foundation everybody trusts, and BW is a good building material. On the other hand many of the vets agree that some of the aspects of SC2 just don't cut it, so they are all for avoiding them being ported over. Like, I can tell you the same thing, if you want SBow to be more like SC2, go play SC2 then, and if you want a lot of new crazy stuff, wait for HotS. Besides, don't act so entitled, both of you. I'm trying my best to avoid that too, introducing such a factor into this discussion only lowers its quality and the effectiveness of conclusions drawn from it.
Besides, don't act so entitled, both of you. I'm trying my best to avoid that too, introducing such a factor into this discussion only lowers its quality and the effectiveness of conclusions drawn from it.
Yes. I agree. Its better to build something solid using myths as base.
On November 17 2012 21:58 Kabel wrote: - Corsairs have same speed as Mutas and deal splash damage, (Corsairs even have a speed upgrade!)
"Don’t be fooled though. Try and change direction while the firing animation is in effect and you’ll soon realize the vessel is immobilized! There is no turning back once you’ve committed to firing that shot." "The problem that arises is: you can never engage with an inferior force against a superior one. The outcome of taking the risk of firing a shot on a superior air force in SC2 is a vastly different one from that of Brood War. It doesn’t matter how well you control your air units. Every time you fire a shot you are essentially committing to taking at least a volley worth of damage. With the gliding shot mechanic there is no way in which you can avoid taking this damage. And since your opponent’s air force is superior, you will in most cases sustain more damage than you will ever cause unto him. To add further insult to injury, the “gliding shot” mechanic actually makes your units move towards your opponent’s in an immobilized state, while his “gliding shot” moves in the right direction to intercept and anticipate your delayed and tardy change of direction. Blizzard just fucked you over twice." http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121769
Feedback now deal damage to all units around the caster too, for each point of energy drained.
Maelstrom has been replaced as I have previously mentioned that I would. It was only useful in one match up and it was a true rage quit spell. Its not fun to get half your army stunned >.<
Matrix caused problems on HT. In PvP it was hard to know what Matrix belonged to which player. Now when its red and more rare to see in the game, that scenario might not occur often. Also HT could cast Matrix on enemy units to slow them and then storm them..
Void Shell is now removed when the unit recieves damage.
- Arbiter has Recall which teleports up to 8 units. Vortex has been replaced by Stasis Field.
- Reaver can not shoot up cliffs anymore. (Thanks XiA!)
- Immortal is now a core unit. Costs 150/100, 200 life /100 Shield..deals 20 dmg vs light, 30 vs all and 40 vs armored. No Hardened Shield. Just a strong combat unit. Nothing less and nothing more. Wanna see how it works.
- Broodlords do not shoot Broodlings anymore. They have a normal missile attack. When they kill something, 2 broodlings are spawned from it. They are also a bit faster, cheaper and more fragile..
>>> Balance changes <<<
Since Immortals are now a strong option in all match ups, Stalkers have been nerfed. 100 life/80 shield ---> 80/80. Damage 14 ---> 12
Warp Prism life reduced from 100 -> 80.
Recall on Nexus only teleports 4 units instead of 8. (I consider to scrap it completely. But I let it remain a little longer)
Vultures HP increased from 90 -> 100. Vulture dmg increased by 2. They can now 2 shot workers. Spider mines 100% dmg has larger radius. Siege tanks 100% dmg has larger radius.. Wraiths attacks 0.25 seconds faster vs ground. (And they seem imba as **** >.<)
Moving shot has already been added for Corsairs, Vultures, Drones and Archons for a long time. I have looked at Sc2BW MOD. I do not know if it makes any difference in the SC2 engine though : /
Note: --- Infestors not the answer to [insert unit x] anymore --- Leave some lurkers w/ the spines for Def --- Nueral parasite is freaking fun to play with now --- Swarm Gaurdians? --- I actually irradiated his marines when i nueraled the vessel. Medics > all forms of non instant kill damage lol. --- Do scourge do splash? If they do that'd be sweet. Also, dont leave scourge to die hanging out in front of missile turrets and or marines.
On November 17 2012 15:38 Von wrote: SC2 Broodwar has been done. If you guys can't come up with more creative solutions than bringing back brood units .. well ..
What's the point?
He doesn't bring back brood war units per se? A lot of the units are his own invention, he also changes the resource model a bit? He just combines the elements he likes of BW and WoL and adds his own?
Not that I think this project is going to lead to good games, just as I think SC2BW most likely won't. Copying BW in SC2's pathing engine is just not ever going to work.
Clarification: my comment was directed at a couple of the guys who were hell bent on just scrapping the Stalker in favor of bringing back the Dragoon. Not the Starbow project as a whole (which is - as a rule - not doing, or avoiding doing that)
On November 17 2012 15:38 Von wrote: SC2 Broodwar has been done. If you guys can't come up with more creative solutions than bringing back brood units .. well ..
What's the point?
dude, for peace sake.
go do something else then. there's no point in making a post like that.
No, it's a perfectly valid and reasonable point. The goal of Starbow is "to make a better Starcraft 2". Not make a "better Starcraft Broodwar". On top of that, there are people that have already done that - and from what I can see they've done a pretty good job.
Also - I'm not going anywhere because I'm not *anywhere* now lol. I'm just an interested spectator that wants to see better games, and this mod has captured my interest. I think they're on the right track - the main developer has a strong head on his shoulders and "gets" the game - and there are a lot of great ideas and changes implemented so far.
I keep up with what's going on, once in a while give some positive props or throw out some feedback. That's it. Scrapping Stalker for Dragoon = steps backwards imo.
@Von The goal is to make a sequel worthy of Brood War, not just improve Starcraft 2. The goal of SC2BW was to recreate down to every little detail of Starcraft Brood War. Obviously that is completely different, just as well its abandoned and doesn't have a player base like we do. A recreation of a mod in an engine that doesn't operate the same way is obviously doomed to fail.
In our case, we don't have the neccesity to force ourselves to exactly how BW does it, but the end goal should obviously be a better sequel to SCBW. This isn't forced to being SCBW redux, or SC2 redux. If the units from BW are simply more interesting, great! Most units from SC2 a lot of people take issue with for various reason. A lot of experimentation has already taken place and this game isn't close to being like Brood War right now, despite having mostly units from BW.
My main issue with stalkers is blink. As long as it invalidates how units are positioned and makes terrain irrelevant, I'm not okay with it.
EPT
Enjoy guys. 
