@moving shot The vulture, archon, and drone haven't been modified to allow a moving shot yet. Corsair and Mutalisk have.
Damage point needs to be 0.0 so the attack hits as soon as the animation begins to fire.
Range needs to be increased on the drone (maybe give it a tiny roach acid attack?), it needs to be not melee for it to be able to do a moving shot. Of course this range can be 1 and work just fine.
Weapon allowed movement from what I've tested can be moving or slowing, not sure if slowing changes that too much or not.
Legacy options+ for No Deceleration. The SC2BW mod triggers this actually, it might be that the legacy option for this is broken but it doesn't hurt.
Keep in mind for each unit two important values. 1. Arc: This will let you shoot instantly in front of you instead of having to turn. 2: Turning speed for the actual unit: This effects how patrol micro is. Not fast enough and you're unit will spend too much time turning before getting a shot off. This should probably be a high value for vulture.
I just had an idea to change Zerg macro (for the better) and make inject more important.
Why not give the hatchery an energy bar, make the spawning of larvae cost energy, and give Queens the ability to transfer energy to Zerg structures and units? That would be freaking awesome, require a lot more macro-management for infinite-selection-hatchery Zerg, and you could give the hatchery itself another ability beyond spawn larva to use the energy on, like giving it an ability along the lines of the Mothership Core cannon on Nexii in HotS for base defense something else with more depth to it.
I really think the larva/energy change would be a huge improvement, though.
New small patch I plan to upload today. I am going away for 2 hours now. When I get back I upload it, or if anyone thinks this is extremly retarded, may you speak now or for ever remain silent.. (until next patch atleast ^^ )
- Moving Shot added to Vultur . (If I understood the manual correctly. This is just to further strengthen micro for this unit.)
- Spider mines do NOT blow up other spider mines when detonating on enemy units.. (Bad thing is that it does not force mine fields to be spread out.. Good thing is that mines will actually deal damage to the enemy now..)
- Reaver Damage AoE decreased.
- Unsieged tanks attack cooldown changed from 2.25 to 2.
- Dark Templar attack speed nerfed.
- Marines BT reduced from 22 to 20 seconds. Barrack can NOT be built before supply depot due to this. (Terran still feels unable to to apply early pressure, due to how slow they produce units. P has chrono boost and Z has larvas. T need many production facilities to even get a decent early army. By reducing marine BT, hopefully will they be able to apply early pressure WITHOUT having to cheese..)
- Psi storm still deal 96 dmg but it deals 12 dmg per second instead of 16. Lasts a little bit longer..
- Immortal supply reduced from 4 to 3. Ranged decreased from 6 to 5. (Remember they have no Hardened shield)
- Medic cost changed from 25/75 to 50/50.
- Wraith has been replaced with Banshee and Viking. (Don´t say you didn´t see this coming...)
Viking moves faster and deals 4x5 dmg to air units. (Bad vs armored air units) Can upgrade to get a splash attack vs air.
Banshee speed increased from 2.75 to 2.95 (since Hydras are tier 1) Range decreased from 6 to 5 (So marines, Stalkers and Hydras can deal with them. They have less range too.. ) Damage reduced from 24 to 22. Takes 3 shots to kill marines. (Since marines is not a common unit in TvT anymore)
Viking can use reactor. Banshee requires tech lab. Both cost as in SC2.
I could write a novel about why. But if this sucks it will just be reverted. As stuff can always be if needed.
On November 18 2012 22:21 Kabel wrote: New small patch
All change are pretty good excepting Marines BT change
this fix can really help bioterrans in late but it is kinda risky because some cheesy terrans can abuse enemies with proxy barracks or allin with all workers...
All races shall be able to end the game early. Thats part of the unpredictable feeling of the game. But I agree that there is a risk that early all in becomes unstopable. Its hard to predict right away if so will be the case or not. But I think its worth to give it a try.
I think we should stop changing things for a bit and let these changes sink in. I think these changes have put a pretty big dent in the problem that used to exist.
I think Capns idea is interesting since zerg defenses seem to be a little weak. Terran balance wise, though, I think we should let the changes go through any meta game shifts that may occur to see how things work out. Unfortunately, it'll probably be at least another weak until my finger heals enough to start playing again.
I had the unit in the game for a couple of months. I removed it because it collided with two other important and interesting abilities: Warp in and Blink.
I think Warp in is one of the best ideas introduced in SC2. I also enjoy Blink because it is an execellent execution of this important dilemma - A small army shall be able to defeat a large army with micro.
The problem is when a unit has both Warp in + Blink + strong HP and DPS. And that was the case with the Dragoon, since I tried to combine all of this into one unit. :p
I think that nothing prevents the Stalker and Immortal from being in the game. I like the concept of both units and I like the dynamic they have the potential to create. I just have not nailed the design or the balance yet. I try to make both units go in seperate directions.
The Stalker must be a weak combat unit, with good mobility via Warp in, Blink and fast movement speed. It can teleport itself into the enemy base, up for cliffs, on top of the enemy army, make hit-and-run attacks. But it can never be a superior combat unit.
So far in Starbow, the Stalker has been the new Dragoon. It has been the core unit in the army. Good DPS, good HP and excellent mobility. When a group of Stalkers blink into enemy bases they can win the game. And thats problematic!
Yesterday I introduced a patch as a way to shift this power. The Stalker recieved a combat nerf. The Immortal changed into a more accesible core-unit. No Hardened shield. Just good firepower and HP for the money.. And they can not blink into bases or warp in...
Nothing is wrong with the Dragoon. But I have to kill my darlings. I just think that the Stalker, Immortal, Blink and Warp in have more potential to contribute to make the game better and more interesting.
But who knows, maybe I fail to give both the Immortal and the Stalker a place in the game. So far I have not succeeded.
@Hydra
I say either yes or no to this. I just don´t think I have understood it. The damage output would be so marginal so I doubt that this would make Z more eager to flank with Hydras. But I might give it a try.
@Tanks
Even though Tanks are strong in Starbow, they still feel weak... When I engage enemy tanks I do not fear them. Maybe a damage increase, HP increase or something else can be needed. But I will not rush into this. I just keep an eye on them..
@Laertes stalkers have already been nerfed, so yes you have a unit ignoring terrain but its not an extremely strong unit. That should help lessen that, but I've never really been a fan of blink in the first place unless its not a unit more like the vulture. Bad damage vs anything but light units and relatively fragile. Immo has taken place of the goon. Right now according to my tests, a set up mech/vulture force is NOT something you can just a-move against. As far as I can tell mech works pretty damn well, even against mass ling hydra. Tanks are probably fine just as they are right now, any further change and they might be up.
As for hydras, they are already interesting. Vs Zealots they can kite, and vs stalkers you try to rush them down. Vs the enemies splash you split and dodge with them. Charge tech comes out when Z has lurkers, but hydra speed comes out quicker so you can take map control and try a hydra bust. Vs Terran you already have lurker and bane as your hard counter to balled up bio.
edit: regarding tanks. During the tests one round of spider mines for about equal number of tanks was always used to simulate a mech who has just enough time to set up.
I am starting to feel satisfied. Not with the balance of course. But the design of the races feel good. The units, spells etc..
These are the only "problematic" areas left that might need to be redesigned. (What I can think of, atleast)
- Immortals. - Energize on Medics. - Auto-turret on Vessels. - Spider mines (Something feels fishy about them..)
Unless some spells/units are wacky but I have not realized it. For example Zergs Infested Creep upgrade for Overlords that gives +2 armor to units on the Overlord creep.
I do not consider to replace/rework any other units/spells right now. The content in the game will likely remain but might need to be tweaked. Instead I will focus more on balance. Get all of this to work in a satisfying way.
Ps. Of course certain units might change in terms of numbers. Its not sure that Zerglings remain in the current form with their current stats, for example. But thats minor changes. I mean that I do not plan to remove or introduce completely new stuff.
On November 19 2012 06:27 Traceback wrote: I think we should stop changing things for a bit and let these changes sink in. I think these changes have put a pretty big dent in the problem that used to exist.
I think Capns idea is interesting since zerg defenses seem to be a little weak. Terran balance wise, though, I think we should let the changes go through any meta game shifts that may occur to see how things work out. Unfortunately, it'll probably be at least another weak until my finger heals enough to start playing again.
This. Trace helped me test defensive positions and their relative strength right now vs a mid tech protoss ball, 60 supply's of it.
Terran came out decently well with two bunkers full of marines, one round of mines (but not the vultures themselves, they are with the army) and 4 tanks. Cut the ball down by a little more then half, this is in a relatively small choke.
Protoss came in second, 2 reavers and 4 cannons just don't have as much defensive oomph vs toss, but the Toss army itself is more mobile.
Zerg came in last. 9 Spines and 5 lurkers, utterly devastated by 60 supply of Toss, and thats no archons HT or reavers. Just zealot stalker immo. This is why I only build a spine spines as a deterrent, but mainly rely on actual units to defend as Z. I feel like this is why people rush like a mad man for lurkers vs T early bio pushes. To be fair, Z can pump out a lot more units out then they could in BW.
Personally, I believe spider mines should be allowed to kill each other because:
1. It taxes terran players who put them too closely by killing nearby mines (+ laying mines is much more easier than in BW in general)
2. Mines were used more as a stalling/ anti-counter attack route tactic while defending/pushing out. Sure if the mines were able to detonate and do a decent damage, but that's just a bonus.
3. With the new vulture changes i.e. vulture hp increase, moving shoot and damage increase, players would have more incentive to use vultures in straight up battles as buffering tanks and dealing decent damage. This would lead to more mine play in all stages of a match. An abundance of non-friendly fire mines to each other could lead to hard contains that are difficult to break out until mobile detection is acquired or scans to be used, this would lead to, imo, a pigeonholed tech route for all races to get mobile detection asap, particularly protoss.
4. This is more of a perosnal opinion. Spectating or witnessing a field of mines be triggered and charging toward the victim is exciting to see which one will detonate/be redundant and how much of the army remains is much more exciting than all the mines having an almost guaranteed chance to deal damage with the new changes.
The Spider mine is a tricky unit. I was experimenting earlier today in the editor. I noticed that very few spider mines actually deal damage vs enemy units. Since mines move so slowly, its easy for the enemy army to move into a mine field and activate many mines at the same time. They will attack the front units but only a few mines actually deals damage. They blow up each other. Thus we get the effect of an army can walk into a mine field without taking heavy damage.
I agree that its bad that Terran can now pack mines together. Its far more interesting to see a stretched mine field across the landscape. But such mine fields will only see play if there is actually any advantage in doing so.
I wanted to see how spider mines would effect the game if they "guarantee" damage vs the enemy army. Is the damage too low? Is the movement speed of mines too slow? etc
Unfortunatly I have no way in trying this offline vs human players. The only way is to publish it. This means that those who enjoy playing Starbow sometimes must suffer from experiments or sudden changes. Hopefully will the spider mines one day become perfect. And trying different variants can be a way to reach it.
On November 19 2012 07:37 Kabel wrote: The Spider mine is a tricky unit. I was experimenting earlier today in the editor. I noticed that very few spider mines actually deal damage vs enemy units. Since mines move so slowly, its easy for the enemy army to move into a mine field and activate many mines at the same time. They will attack the front units but only a few mines actually deals damage. They blow up each other. Thus we get the effect of an army can walk into a mine field without taking heavy damage.
I agree that its bad that Terran can now pack mines together. Its far more interesting to see a stretched mine field across the landscape. But such mine fields will only see play if there is actually any advantage in doing so.
I wanted to see how spider mines would effect the game if they "guarantee" damage vs the enemy army. Is the damage too low? Is the movement speed of mines too slow? etc
Unfortunatly I have no way in trying this offline vs human players. The only way is to publish it. This means that those who enjoy playing Starbow sometimes must suffer from experiments or sudden changes. Hopefully will the spider mines one day become perfect. And trying different variants can be a way to reach it.
I appreciate your incentive to make rapid changes and releasing them and also for the quick replies!
In reflection to your post, i was just purely speculating w/o any playtesting in a large no. of games. It might be a necessary , change in sbow due to pathing and improved ai of units, we just have to see. I prefer the game to undergo more subtle changes or fewer changes, but hey I'm just a guy who doesnt really like drastic changes.
On November 19 2012 07:37 Kabel wrote: I agree that its bad that Terran can now pack mines together. Its far more interesting to see a stretched mine field across the landscape. But such mine fields will only see play if there is actually any advantage in doing so.
Mine fields were spread out because the maps didn't have so many narrow chokes as they do in vanilla. With the maps we're currently playing, you can set up a bunch of clumped mines across a few chokes and you're set, whereas normally, you'd use them to deter or slow down pushes, which required you to control a large area of terrain. Non-FF mines are fine, with maps will come the variety. It's one of those changes that has to 'sink in'.
EPT
