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@Kabel
PvZ, The only armored units I can think of that the immortal would ever have a reason to show up in PvZ is the lurker (confirm that it is armored) and the ultralisk. With the lurker, things should remain relatively the same i think. Run up w/ obs, snipe the lurker w/ immortals and stalkers, then the immortal just adds DPS to the main army against the rest of the hydras. Hydras and lings wouldnt activate the hardened shields in the first place so it shouldn't matter*
*+ Show Spoiler +Immortal still has a lot of shield and hp points, even if the shields are not hardened at certain points so it can still tank a bit like an archon with better range but less damage. Meh, I dont see a whole lot out of immortals in PvZ. The only reason the immortal is good in WoL PvZ early is roaches. No roaches = no real "need" for immortals that early.
Immortal vs Ultralisk would be really interesting, as ultralisks would do full single target dmg against an immortal in melee range. Immortals are slower than ultras, so the only way to escape would be to kill the ultra,... but that would take away hardened shields. It would make ultras and immortals the counter to each other :O (Immortals and ultras should always be supported w/ meatshields and other dps units I.E. lings/ hydra vs stalker/zealot, so the excact balance between that may have to be tested in... wait for it.. some form of unit tester :O
PvP the biggest significance would be immortal vs stalker and immortal vs reaver. I think that immortals in PvP will become obsolete until late game because a wad of blink stalkers can still pick off immortals, but now immortals can not shoot back while they are being attacked. It also means that if an immortal tries to get a potshot or 2 in, they die even faster than sc2 immortals (which pretty fast when you have 6+ stalkers blink + focus firing an immortal). I think blink or chargelot archon will become THE openings to go for in PvP. Maybe some Corsair openings... not sure how corsairs do compaired to pheonix openings WoL PvP.
Immortal vs reaver could be interesting as the reaver shoots a projectile, which would hit after the immortal fires and lowers its shields. So in a Warp Prism Reaver vs Immortal( 1 or 2 ) defense situation, the defender would either get a shot or 2 off on the reavers, but then die to the scarab, OR the defender sees the drop coming, move commands his immortals for a bit, wait until the scarab hits and takes the hardened shield, then opens fire a kills the reaver. (3 shots to kill a reaver? Is that correct? Someone test 4 me plox). Defender no micro = dead immortals. Defender micro = dead enemy reaver. It can also happen that the attacker sees the immortals on move command, and instead of deploying the reavers, he just turns around and goes home. Reaver bomb never happens. *
*+ Show Spoiler +In a general sense, you should not be defending warp prisms with immortals because of WARP IN. But, If you happen to have an observer or probe in their base and see no warp gates, only gateways, and a support bay, then you could make a case for defending with an immortal. Then we watch as the meta game shifts and turns between reaver drops, immortal defenses, warp ins drops, zealot bomb > immortal defense, defending w/ cannon + immortal, defending w/ immortal zealot, corsair blind counter immortal defense, and all sorts of goodies.
Finally, this begs the question, should the immortal be given a hold fire command (ala ghost) if this change goes through?
EDIT: I typed this in the little response box below, did NOT think this was going to be that big of text :O
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Its like a heavy dragoon? Slow, high dps and tanky?
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What about making the immortal unable to move for 3 seconds after firing?
This would solve problem against tanks as immortals would only be good to break the first tank line, as they would then move slowly through more defense.
PvP immortal just as good in defense against stalkers ( which should be nerfed imo , see Danko's above post for example )
Just a thought because the hardened shield deactivate upon attack will make immortals bad at defending Pvp.
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Truth be told I have played / seen a rare amount of PvPs (mainly because I'm always terran or zerg) , but I dont think that immortals should be a necessity for PvP. Frankly I think MOAR gateway based PvP would be more interesting than the WoL style Auto - Robo Immortal Colossus. (Not counting observers and no moar colossus).
Even with going robotics PvP, Immortal still has 250 total points of life (100 shield 150 hp am i right???? Check me) and a metric crap ton of damage per shot. It should still handle small chunks of stalkers WITH SUPPORT. Either way, its already somewhat easy to blink around immortals and shrug them off to a degree. Even in WoL, You MUST protect your immortals with a sizeable force of zealot stalker, which leaves you very vulnerable wherever they are not.
By stunning the immortals after a shot, you take away what little mobility they had, and since they dont have the beastly range or splash of the siege tank or the lurker, its just as bad if I took away some of their tank-iness by debuffing hardened shields. No matter what, immortals will be bad in PvP for 'nearly' everything but direct engagements through the front, which starbow is design to disfavor.
EDIT: And in the spirit of MOAR MICRO, stunning the immortals just isn't as interesting to watch. >.<
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On November 15 2012 04:48 Traceback wrote:
Not every unit in the game has to be extreamely exciting. If it requires micro to execute properly, it will be exciting when combined with other unit micro.
The objective of the design is to turn battles into a symphony of skill, not a crash test of balls. Not ever instrument in a symphony has to be a good soloist to fit I'm.
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Beautiful.
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Would of been better if my mobile device didn't put I'm instead of in. >.>
But yea, wish I could play with the new changes, stupid physical injury... Dec, you need to upload that good unit tester.
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On November 15 2012 11:06 Traceback wrote:
Would of been better if my mobile device didn't put I'm instead of in. >.>
But yea, wish I could play with the new changes, stupid physical injury... Dec, you need to upload that good unit tester.
Not sure if I should because changes are so frequent. The one I currently have up is extremely easy to upload since you don't have to manually change the database for upgrade/research differences each patch.
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Well it coukd lead to a more positional play ( ie: move immortals right in so they can constantly shoot even though they are immobilized for a couple seconds ) and in this way ( and with possible warpprism play ) it favors interesting decision making and army control.
The design of immortal is wrong, but I don't think the hardened shield is the problem. I think it is that it combines 3 things
: High burst/ dps.
Tankyness.
And very decent mobility ( speed, small model size , decent range ).
Remember Wol? They gave immortal 1 range ( which fundamentally changed design from low mobility that would get stuck behind stalkers to high mobility ) and it changed the whole pvt pvz metagame.
Immo's need to be rewarded by control, but not making it obsolete in pvp design imo
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Maybe disabled hardened shield and atack while moving (togglable ability) ? Range 6 and you have decent defensive tooo. Maybe Would allow some fancy micro while combined with warpprism?
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Russian Federation17 Posts
Hi Guyz!
I was out in couple of days, can you share latest patchnote? )))
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Russian Federation17 Posts
On November 15 2012 05:07 Danko__ wrote:
I agree creating such ability can be hard. But i have seen something similar in raynor party i belive. There is one minigame where you can rotate shield on immortal to bounce back balls of energy. Rotating shield like this maybe could be base for that.
There some difference
ball of energy is particular object that has position (x, y, z) and other properties
And, for example, Siege tanks attack instant. There is no such object as "Siege tank missle" and thus, you cant to create ability that protects from not existing missles
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You know guys not ALL the units needs a ground breaking special ability to be microable or to exciting
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@ Latest patch notes
Sorry,, I still suck at collecting and presenting the patch changes in the opening post. The opening post is terrible
T_T
@IDetails about the mmortal shield
As it is now, I will most likely use the suggestion presented by Doominator: When the Immortal attacks, the shield is disabled for a few seconds. Otherwise the shield is active. Move into combat to soak up damage, attack into combat to deal damage.. Its atleast adds something more to the Immortal than just being an A-move unit..
I would like to give the Immortal some kind of use vs Z too.. IF the shield absorbs 10 damage, it can be useful vs both spine crawlers and Lurkers, since they deal over 20 dmg each.. But the shield would be absurdly good vs spider mines.. Just move around and absorb the mine field, back away and regenerate..
If the shield absorbs 20 damage, as it currently does, its not useful vs any Z units but it feel ok vs spider mine & tanks. : /
@Fundamental problem with Hardened Shield
The spider mine is arguably the most important unit in TvP.. atleast in BW.. It was a delicate relation between Dragoons and Spider mines.. P had no units that could walk into the mine field without suffer damage.. Only Hallucination did that.. (Archons did not cause mines to explode)
In Starbow, Archon, Hallucinations, and Immortal can walk into mine fields without taking any damage. (Archons do explode on mines right now.. and the BW hallucination spell is most likely coming back in the next patch)
Void shelled and cloaked units can move over spider mines without activating them.
In Starbow, P has more ways to deal with the most important Terran unit in TvP - spider mine!
T has barely any new ways to deal with the new Protoss arsenal... T´s best compositon vs P is arguably still Vulture + tanks, and they are just worse now than in BW.
There are two approaches to use:
1. Let Vulture + tanks still be the only realistic unit composition in TvP and buff the hell out of it! Also maybe remove some of P's methods to deal with spider mines/tanks..
2. Give T other units/ abilities to use vs P.
Personally I have tried alternative number 2 for a long time. Thats why I try to make marines work in TvP, thats why I brought back EMP + Lockdown to Ghosts, thats partially why I consider to replace the Wraith with Banshee/Vikings
I do not think that recreating the exact PvT in BW is the right way to go. Yes, PvT was fun in BW. But T only needed and only could use a small portion of their available units.. But if I try to make other units viable in TvP, the relationship between spider mines & dragoons (stalkers in this case) will change.. And maybe the truth is a combination of 1 and 2.
- The key units for T needs a buff. - better vultures, mines and tanks, so they are still viable vs P, despite all the new counters P has.
- Find ways to make other units for T useable in TvP.. We are on our way.. with the latest patch I have seen more marines being used vs P.. But there is more to do..
hmm.. Im just thinking loud now
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I agree, consider bringing the vulture cost back to 75 mins, right now if you open vultures of 1 base (meaning 2fact with 2 vultures being constantly produced), it doesn't allow you to get enough minerals to expand at a decent timing, while this seems like the best way to open mech and still do a bit of damage to greedy toss openings + it adds fun micro between stalkers and vultures.
I've tried doing the same thing with opening 1rax expand and then doing the 2fact, but this has 2 fundamental problems:
-you missed the timing where stalker count is low, likeliness to do damage is low (especially because obs is probably up by now, too easy to clean up mines)
-you will have a hard time defending P aggression
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At least give the chance for T to make mech work.
Spider mines slaughtered goons in one hit. This isn't even close to the current scenario we have.
Tanks actually dealt damage vs zealots, this isn't the case right now.
If you make mech with some actual fighting stats like in BW, I can take one or two ghosts, emp archon or immortal and all of a sudden mech works again.
@movement
Have you tried the SC2BW mod? I figure out it simply turns off pushing. It makes movement for units more BW like, and honestly it could only help on making micro matter. Same with giving drones, corsairs, and mutalisks their moving shot back. Add some dexterity back into the game. Its extremely easy to do.
The reason ling surrounds are so extremely easy? The unit pathing. As much as you change the stats for the ling, as long as its the tiny easy to kill massed unit and we're using the sc2 engine it'll be incredibly easy to sorround and a move. Adding in no pushing would force you to actually pay attention a little bit more when trying to sorround.
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On your thoughts about TvP:
I don't think that Marines or anything with that low health can withstand Protoss firepower, plain and simple. If you want multiple options for Terran in this matchup, you need some form of survivability. Of the top of my head, I cannot think of one army in any BW or SC2 XvP matchup, that could stand Protoss while being fragile, it is the dark swarms, the ultralisks, the Broodlords, the roaches, the Tanks, the Marauders and the Medivacs that can stand a chance against Protoss in combat.
I think it's the initial design of Protoss that forces this. Protoss fields exclusively high health units, therefore if you fight Protoss straight up in combat with low health units, he is guaranteed to chop pieces of your army in every engagement, while you are not and therefore every skirmish disfavors you, unless you crush him.
All the other matchups, if you lose a junk of units, you also take something from them.
Just some food for thought.
And on the Wraith. To be honest, I have never really liked it. Well, that's not true, but I have never really found a place for it in my head, neither in BW, nor in Starbow. It feels like an airsuperiority fighter from CnC, but without the superhighspeed, the damage, the extreme fragility or the airfield mechanic. So actually, it doesn't feel at all like an airsuperiority fighter from CnC. I don't know, but I'm always failing to see why I would want to use it.
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I really don't like the idea of adding more activated abilities, especially to a combat unit like the immortal. Why not balance the immortal by *buffing* it instead?
* HP/Shields changed from 200/100 to 100/200.
* Hardened shields activate on damage > 10 and completely *ignore* that hit.
* After activation, hardened shields take 1 seconds to recharge.
I think this is a relatively intuitive passive ability (that's well supported by the existing animation) that gives you an immortal that's vulnerable to focus fire, light-hitting units, and tank/mine fields, but is much more potent in small skirmishes and rewards effective shield management. You wouldn't be able to a-move a clump of immortals into a tank field since the initial 3-4 tanks would strip shields for the whole group of immortals and allow the rest to deal full damage. But if you set up a flank/spread that only has a few tanks firing per immortal, you could reduce damage by 25%, 33%, even 100% if every tank is firing on a different immortal (and the immortals are sufficiently spread to not take splash damage).
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@lodi
Sounds interesting.
But how you mean that the Immortal would be vulnerable to tank/mine? And how you mean with "shield management"?
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Make Hardened shields able to absorve full damage from 1 unit with >10 ATK every X (2-3?)seconds.
Auto-cast ability. Same as lodi
This way the tank or the mines will still hit the Inmortal.
If the terran forgot to mine field he will pay the price
Or T can even force the Inmortal to active Shield simply by attack with their vulture before the Inmortal charge into the tank range and negate them to absorve the tank full damage. P can choose to turn off the auto-cast before engament and active when he reachs Tank range to have Perfect excution.(Well who knows there are still mine and vultures everywhere so this is very balance in my opinion)
Great micro great reward but I am pretty sure I am missing something
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On November 16 2012 01:59 decemberscalm wrote:
@movement
Have you tried the SC2BW mod? I figure out it simply turns off pushing. It makes movement for units more BW like, and honestly it could only help on making micro matter. Same with giving drones, corsairs, and mutalisks their moving shot back. Add some dexterity back into the game. Its extremely easy to do.
The reason ling surrounds are so extremely easy? The unit pathing. As much as you change the stats for the ling, as long as its the tiny easy to kill massed unit and we're using the sc2 engine it'll be incredibly easy to sorround and a move. Adding in no pushing would force you to actually pay attention a little bit more when trying to sorround.
Yeah, I've never really liked the "pushing" of units in SC2. It looks so clunky. Marines walking into tanks and pushing them out of the way is funny (in a bad way). Overall, tanks just seem like they slide in SC2. They feel like they have way less presence.
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EPT
