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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
And so, i apologize to the TL community for some of the unwanted attitudes flying around a little bit. I know some of you may have a bit of distaste toward the TPW team today, but most of us are excited for the winners and we take the hits, learn from them, and move on. Please understand this! Congrats to the other winners | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:23 IronManSC wrote: The judges can certainly understand their actions, we just remind ourselves that the only act out in this way because of their overwhelming passion for what they are doing. It's a good thing that they have this passion, but sometimes it can lead to problems. Hey guys, I want to apologize on behalf of Funcmode and Mereel. We as a team put a good amount of effort into each map we make, and we adore aesthetic work. Yes, it can be frustrating when a seemingly low-effort, low-quality map tops a map that had 10x the work put into it, and that's what my two fellow teammates were basically saying. I vouch for the frustration as I've had a few of my maps get bumped out. This is something every map-maker understands, and viewers I encourage you to just simply understand that the work we do as a community is something we really admire. It's not fun to lose, but life has its loss i'm afraid. And so, i apologize to the TL community for some of the unwanted attitudes flying around a little bit. I know some of you may have a bit of distaste toward the TPW team today, but most of us are excited for the winners and we take the hits, learn from them, and move on. Please understand this! Congrats to the other winners . | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:13 Toppp wrote: It's called Feedback and constructive criticism , ever heard of it? How many have even played the maps though? Maybe I'm wrong but to me it seems like a lot of people are commenting about the maps just based on the pictures. I don't really think that can be counted as constructive criticism. | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
I feel bad for the people that put in tons of hours on other maps that did not make it in, but please do not let that discourage you. I read and check out most maps that get threads on here and am usually impressed. Keep up the good work and keep trying for the next opportunity. Thanks to all of the map makers for all of their projects! | ||
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[wh]_ForAlways
United States235 Posts
I made a picture below to represent it, and is it seems like the red player is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to taking his 3rd. The white player can secure his third far more easily than the red player. The red player could take base #4 as his 3rd as well but it's far more open and harder to secure (and potentially creates a problem where mutas are easily able to ping pong from the main to the 3rd very easily a la tal'darim altar) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OvpsZ.jpg) | ||
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Apom
France655 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:44 [wh]_ForAlways wrote: Is it just me or does Sanctuary have a huge positional imbalance? I made a picture below to represent it, and is it seems like the red player is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to taking his 3rd. The white player can secure his third far more easily than the red player. The red player could take base #4 as his 3rd as well but it's far more open and harder to secure (and potentially creates a problem where mutas are easily able to ping pong from the main to the 3rd very easily a la tal'darim altar) [picture] I don't know, it feels to me like you put the 3rd where the 4th should be (and reverse)... | ||
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[wh]_ForAlways
United States235 Posts
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Apom
France655 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
white should expand away! so to the left side of the map with fourth on the highround. i experiemented quite a bit with 3player maps and it is easy to see that red is more compact in mid game (on four bases), but in late game white has access to more bases when expansing counterclockwise all the time. On November 10 2011 06:36 Antares777 wrote: Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map? I just cannot fathom why everyone thinks that map is good. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm willing to give feedback on it and help you improve it if you want, but... meh I just don't like it right now.  i want to support him cause it is extremly fun to see someone appearing from nowhere getting a map in the finalists group. also the whole team-thing is less strong with such a map comning through. he has some ideas implemented many of us would not dare to do, or because we had experienced that such features did not "win us anything" in the mapping community. It is great for sc2 mapping that such an effort is seen on this stage. honestly the map is really ugly; i can't stand uhly maps. so when a lot of people want to play it and they have fubn, why not make it a better looking map or help the author making is better looking? we do not know each other, but still, it is an opportunity to help a talented map maker. also to show what i can do or see if i can help somehow. I would also love to see this as an extra MotM contestn in case the author does not want to beautify the map. On November 10 2011 07:03 RoboBob wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 10 2011 04:26 chuky500 wrote: FlopTurnReaver you seemed pissed by what i said. Creative doesn't mean wicked. On the ladder the majority of games only go to 2 or 3 bases and the majority of engagements happen close to players bases not in the middle of the map. That's why the layout of the bases matter a lot and matters more than how the middle of the map is laid out. If you look at the 7 finalists, appart from Haven's Lagoon they all have the same 3 base layout : - a big main - a tiny natural - a ramp between them - a 3rd expansion touching the natural ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N3m4W.jpg) And this is also the case with Motm, in Motm 9 all finalists also had this overused layout. Say this is "BS","plain stupid", that I make "myself look silly" but it's a fact, mapping contests pick maps that are very conservative. Now you ask me why people like Metalopolis ? The lay out of the first 3 bases is unique. How hard is it to understand maps will play the same if bases are the same ? This post makes a ton of sense. I was struggling to understand why I felt so many of these maps were "blah" (except for Haven's Lagoon) and this hit the nail right on the head. I understand that thirds close to mains are important to Zergs. But the beauty of Haven's Lagoon is that you're always expanding away from the enemy main. So even though the third is far from the main relative to most ladder maps, its also much more difficult for the opponent to punish that third. Any early push by the opponent to kill the third is extremely vulnerable to counterattack by the opposite ground. The choice to push along either the high or low ground is really cool too. Push along the high ground and you get the high ground advantage, but take longer to hit the opponent. Push along the low ground and you get to the opponent much faster, but then you relinquish the high ground to the opponent. This dynamic continues into the lategame with the 5th and 6th bases, which is really really cool. I'm not worried too much about the lack of chokes on the map because there's so many different levels. At first glance such an open map would be awesome for Zergs, but then you think about Terrans placing a PF on either the low ground third or the gold. Or for Protoss, Colossi cliff abusing the 4ths, threatening 4gates on open naturals, and a gazillion tough-to-scout locations to place proxy pylons. The more I think about it, the cooler Haven's Lagoon looks. I might actually playtest that one. the heightlevels make this map kind of unique for sc2. although we have seen things like that before (ride of valkyries). please not that this "always" expandinfg away thing works in many other maps, too, but it is the easiest in 2player-mirror-maps, because with every exoansion in a straigt line you get further away from the opponent. but as i said, this also works in other maps, also in this contest among the finalists. I do not want to discuss/defend other maps than my own. Burning Altar lets you expand "away" for third, fourth and fifth when spawning in close position (one of the two pülayers has to go slightly forward for fourth and fifth. but again that is similar in most maps (even lagoon). | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:44 [wh]_ForAlways wrote: Is it just me or does Sanctuary have a huge positional imbalance? I made a picture below to represent it, and is it seems like the red player is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to taking his 3rd. The white player can secure his third far more easily than the red player. The red player could take base #4 as his 3rd as well but it's far more open and harder to secure (and potentially creates a problem where mutas are easily able to ping pong from the main to the 3rd very easily a la tal'darim altar) + Show Spoiler + Here is basically how I see it going most of the time, Red being the "turtler" TvZ TvP PvZ, yellow being the "zerger", zerg basically and usually terran vs toss. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I37i2.jpg) Taking the other third spreads the turtler a lot more (It's like taking the other nat on shakuras but with the main being a big additional path). The zerger will however try to take his third away from the turtler, half the time that is the more open(good for zerger, especially when it comes to denying thirds) but closer base, the downside being that it's also a bit closer towards your opponent. The other half he will take the more reclusive third. A thing to note is that the turtler's army's staging point will most likely be stationed in front of his nat, between nat and third. From there the difference in attack distance towards thirds is somewhat noticable but the natural of the zerger with the further third will be a bit more easily accessable. The zerger with the reclusive third will have a harder fourth. About the ping ponging, I don't really see the turtler take the other "less ping pongy" base too often and if he does it is way more ping pongable from nat to third this time instead of from third to main. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On November 10 2011 13:47 Toppp wrote: TPW seems extremely butthurt coming into this thread and bashing other peoples maps. Hard to believe you can be that bad mannered when most of you're maps placed so highly. Well, at TPW we don't all have the same opinion and Mereels comment on this was just over the top. I myself was aware of some flaws in the in the maps i submitted (and FYI the maps submitted mostly have been overhauled for TLMC - lesser doodads to avoid those lag issues). What i just didn't liked: the kinda small judge board - but overall they seem to have chosen decent maps with Lagoon being maybe a possible Scrap v2 in their mindset. So i'm absolutely fine with their decision and if Lagoon gonna win i'm pretty much sure it will be overhauled in terms of design. TLMC was all about Layout and that's might be why some guys (and even TPW members) complain about a map aesthetically not to good being in the top row. I'm looking forward to see the TLMC tourney and see games on all those maps. TLDR: I don't share the map bashing attitude of Mereel and Co. | ||
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Johanaz
Denmark363 Posts
So, I got on B.net and set up some games. I found a master Zerg and a master terran who likes to off-race as Protoss. First 2 games Protoss was roflstomped early, so I thought "ok, that was it", but then he said: "no lemme try again - I screwed up  " - then followed 7 super fun games with tons of action from start to finish! In the final game he switched back to terran and they played a pretty epic TvZ.mind = blown This experience has completely changed the way I look at map architecture, and I am so stoked about throwing away a lot of the restrictions I have followed. Here are two replays from the session: Havens Lagoon - TvZ - DLMredBullX vs Vettel Havens Lagoon - PvZ - DLMredBullX vs Vettel My instincts tell me that this map is Zerg>Terran>Protoss, but I can´t know at this point. What I do know is that it makes for super entertaining games and that players enjoy it as much as spectators. So Kudos to Timetwister22 and the judges for this wake-up call! | ||
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
On November 10 2011 18:02 dezi wrote: Well, at TPW we don't all have the same opinion and Mereels comment on this was just over the top. I myself was aware of some flaws in the in the maps i submitted (and FYI the maps submitted mostly have been overhauled for TLMC - lesser doodads to avoid those lag issues). What i just didn't liked: the kinda small judge board - but overall they seem to have chosen decent maps with Lagoon being maybe a possible Scrap v2 in their mindset. So i'm absolutely fine with their decision and if Lagoon gonna win i'm pretty much sure it will be overhauled in terms of design. TLMC was all about Layout and that's might be why some guys (and even TPW members) complain about a map aesthetically not to good being in the top row. I'm looking forward to see the TLMC tourney and see games on all those maps. TLDR: I don't share the map bashing attitude of Mereel and Co. i was writing excatly this... now I can only +1. TPW is a team that works closely together on some maps, testing and feedback while some maps are only done by one single person without much teamwork. posts are always individual's posts. The TPW maps are all really nice looking, but almost all of them share the same problems of running at what feels like half the framerate of the ladder maps and generally not being outstanding to play on. You can't win on looks alone. well, to be honest, sometimes i have the impression i should do bad texturing do make people believe in a "hardcore" layout... On November 10 2011 14:12 XRaDiiX wrote: I'm not trying to be mean or anything but when i tested the TPW maps my framerate was significantly lower than playing normally on a Ladder map. Sorry TPW Your maps are beautiful but my computer lagged like 15 fps on them only 30fps and above is acceptable.... I'm not sure what made the maps so laggy; i know my computers not the best and i play on low Graphics but my game never lags like that. I'm hoping TPW can fix the Lag issue because their maps overall are really; well-done maps. lags on the other hand really suck. may i ask if you had problems on Burning Altar and if yes, what is your system and settings like? there should not be any lags on Burning Altar all caused by the map. so please let me know where and i tzry to fix it also for really low systems. | ||
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Hypatio
549 Posts
Haven Ohana Bring them on, please! | ||
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AvonMexicola
Netherlands36 Posts
WAUW Ohana looks so beautifful it's mindblowing. Thanks for IronManSC and TPW for creating such a pretty pretty map. When I get home from work I am gonna try it out immediatly. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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chocopaw
2072 Posts
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On November 10 2011 18:36 Plexa wrote: Updated picture of Haven. Rumour has it that monitor is going to revert daggoth back to korhal. I assume timetwister didnt do the aestethics update himself, because my eyes arent puking anymore. This really makes this event feel alot less like a constest to me. People had plenty of time to make their maps, and after that people got even more time. Now that the contest has reached final stage third party representives come and change an entry because the original was considered too bad. This feels more like a community project to find a good map, than a contest between good map makers. | ||
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