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LunaSaint
United Kingdom620 Posts
On September 04 2011 00:42 Quotidian wrote:how about you simply upload the OFFICIAL official version then..? not that it really matters - it's all Blizzard's intellectual property anyway. 1) Blizzard doesn't truly own the map. The clause is really in effect to prevent people sueing blizzard over these things. 2) Legal/permission issues with GSL, I believe. | ||
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Neubii
Austria5 Posts
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
On January 06 2012 05:20 Neubii wrote: whats that useless depot for? :S So that Terran/Protoss cannot wall off the bottom of the ramp with two Bunkers or three Pylons against Zerg, which is considered imbalanced, and in my opinion, not fun or interesting to watch or experience. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
I'm sure it will be corrected before it gets to the ladder and hopefully sooner than that so tournaments use the fix too. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1TnCN.jpg) | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:53 chuky500 wrote: Just for the record, in the semi-finals of the IEM World MC Walled himself behind Feast's mineral line and canon rushed him. I just tried and it's indeed tight. It works on both mains and you can't drone drill the pylons. It's unstopable and on one side if your opponent kills a pylon you can still place a new one and be tight again. I'm sure it will be corrected before it gets to the ladder and hopefully sooner than that so tournaments use the fix too. This is actually a well-known strategy, it has been around for quite a while (I remember first seeing it about 6 months+ ago). The best defense I've seen is a game where Sase just kept mining until he got 400 minerals, expanded to his natural, and sacked his main. I don't think it's a huge imbalance (it ONLY works in PvP) and it can be stopped or defended any many ways. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
If it gets to the ladder as is it'll be a major disaster. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On March 11 2012 03:13 chuky500 wrote: Are you serious ? The solution would be to stop mining, waste 400 minerals, lose a nexus, 2 pylons, a gateway and an assimilator, wait for an unprotected open nexus to pop and start from scratch while letting the opponent do what he wants ? If it gets to the ladder as is it'll be a major disaster. It works for most pros  You don't have to stop mining for very long, and all you lose if you play it right is a nexus. At that point you've lost 400 minerals, compared to the opponents forge(150)+two pylons(200)+cannon or two(150-300) totaling around 500. It doesn't actually put you that far behind especially since you should be ahead in tech (keeping your gateway alive). If you have a NA client, add me 'monitor' 450 if you want me to demonstrate. | ||
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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:53 chuky500 wrote: Just for the record, in the semi-finals of the IEM World MC Walled himself behind Feast's mineral line and canon rushed him. I just tried and it's indeed tight. It works on both mains and you can't drone drill the pylons. It's unstopable and on one side if your opponent kills a pylon you can still place a new one and be tight again. I'm sure it will be corrected before it gets to the ladder and hopefully sooner than that so tournaments use the fix too. It has been made on purpose, obviously. | ||
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Baumvieh
Germany67 Posts
(Forget about my comment if either of those warped in buildings already is the cannon.) | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On March 11 2012 07:37 Baumvieh wrote: Couldn't he just have killed the probe with one or two of his own probes before it could warp in the cannon? The gap between the minerals to the left of the right pylon looks big enough for probes to go through to get to the enemy probe. (Forget about my comment if either of those warped in buildings already is the cannon.) It isn't big enough unfortunately  One way is to put two probes behind your minerals when their probe comes into your base. That way, no matter what, you can kill his probe if he tries to wall it off. The only problem is that then you have two probes stuck back there. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On March 11 2012 07:37 Baumvieh wrote: Couldn't he just have killed the probe with one or two of his own probes before it could warp in the cannon? The gap between the minerals to the left of the right pylon looks big enough for probes to go through to get to the enemy probe. (Forget about my comment if either of those warped in buildings already is the cannon.) No. I opened up an unlocked daybreak, just to check out various pieces of it, and there are no gaps in the main's mineral line at all. There's a space between the minerals and the geysers, but the minerals are all tangent to each other. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
I measured how far behind you'd be if you had to plant a new nexus based on the replay of MC vs Feast. Feast would first need to mine for 40 seconds until he has 400 minerals while a canon also takes 40s to build. Then he would plant a new nexus at the natural and start long distance mining which would earn him 250 minerals before the nexus is complete. MC on the other hand would earn 800 minerals by the time the nexus finishes + 50 by each probes he'd make (because when I measured I only looked at my money). I just counted the minerals he would mine while the nexus is building, not while Feast mines 400 minerals. If you add the 40s where Feast has to mine enough for a new nexus, MC would mine 1300 minerals + 50 by each new probe. You mention a tech advantage for the defender but the cannon rusher has a forge and can make upgrades which are very useful when you make gateway units. And this assumes you don't lose buildings other than the nexus but in PvP everyone makes his first pylon next to the nexus so you'll most likely lose it. And of course there's the positional imbalance, the natural doesn't have a ramp to defend with forecefields. The mistake in the map is easy to fix but I don't believe it was made on purpose. Many top maps have mistakes like Antiga Shipyard (some naturals are further away), some older Blizzard maps aren't symmetrical, Cloud Kingdom has the gas and minerals at the bottom natural further away from their nexus/cc/hatch (and the ESV version also has the bottom natural closer to the ramp), Metropolis has a cliff where a reaper can't climb, and many maps have places that make the units' AI bug (where pathing wasn't painted). It takes a lot of time for mappers to check every spot to see if it's abusable and even more time to check for possible cheeses. And the purpose of cheese is to do what you don't expect. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On March 11 2012 10:54 chuky500 wrote: I have a lot of respect for you for the maps you've made and the fact that you were judging the Map of the Month contest. But saying you're not far behind when you lose your base before 3:00 only reminds me of the first Funday Mondays where Day9 showed players that would "transition into losing their f***ing base". I measured how far behind you'd be if you had to plant a new nexus based on the replay of MC vs Feast. Feast would first need to mine for 40 seconds until he has 400 minerals while a canon also takes 40s to build. Then he would plant a new nexus at the natural and start long distance mining which would earn him 250 minerals before the nexus is complete. MC on the other hand would earn 800 minerals by the time the nexus finishes + 50 by each probes he'd make (because when I measured I only looked at my money). I just counted the minerals he would mine while the nexus is building, not while Feast mines 400 minerals. If you add the 40s where Feast has to mine enough for a new nexus, MC would mine 1300 minerals + 50 by each new probe. You mention a tech advantage for the defender but the cannon rusher has a forge and can make upgrades which are very useful when you make gateway units. And this assumes you don't lose buildings other than the nexus but in PvP everyone makes his first pylon next to the nexus so you'll most likely lose it. And of course there's the positional imbalance, the natural doesn't have a ramp to defend with forecefields. The mistake in the map is easy to fix but I don't believe it was made on purpose. Many top maps have mistakes like Antiga Shipyard (some naturals are further away), some older Blizzard maps aren't symmetrical, Cloud Kingdom has the gas and minerals at the bottom natural further away from their nexus/cc/hatch (and the ESV version also has the bottom natural closer to the ramp), Metropolis has a cliff where a reaper can't climb, and many maps have places that make the units' AI bug (where pathing wasn't painted). It takes a lot of time for mappers to check every spot to see if it's abusable and even more time to check for possible cheeses. And the purpose of cheese is to do what you don't expect. As I said before, I have seen the expand style work against this cannon rush (even if the technical math doesn't add up). I don't think it's a huge imbalance (it ONLY works in PvP) and it can be stopped or defended any many ways. As Plexa said, the opponent can out tech. The opponent can also keep 2 probes behind the mineral line to stop it. Or they could just not let the probe get in and/or build the pylon block. So imo it won't be a big issue on ladder. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
The idea to put 2 probes behind the mineral line is a bad idea, it puts you behind against any build even a regular proxy cannon. In PvP the probe count is very important and in case of a 4 gate vs 4 gate you die if you made more probes. Not to mention that if your opponent traps himself with your probes he loses 1 probe while you lose 2. About not letting the probe get in, you can't stop a probe from going where it wants to because the probe goes through other units when you click on mineral patches. And if you build a pylon to block 1 side you're just giving your opponent 100 minerals because he'll only have to build 1 pylon to wall himself. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
On March 11 2012 20:46 chuky500 wrote: I've also came back a few times from losing my nexus but tbh it was because my opponent was bad. Usually players that cheese can't recover because they're still in the cheese mindset. They'll take 2 gas and try to transition to 1 base DT or Colossus, which is bad because they will die if you push. The correct follow up would be to make gateway units (mostly zealots) with +1 defense. The idea to put 2 probes behind the mineral line is a bad idea, it puts you behind against any build even a regular proxy cannon. In PvP the probe count is very important and in case of a 4 gate vs 4 gate you die if you made more probes. Not to mention that if your opponent traps himself with your probes he loses 1 probe while you lose 2. About not letting the probe get in, you can't stop a probe from going where it wants to because the probe goes through other units when you click on mineral patches. And if you build a pylon to block 1 side you're just giving your opponent 100 minerals because he'll only have to build 1 pylon to wall himself. You'd only move probes behind the mineral line if it looks like he's going to do the wall. You really wouldn't be any behind considering you're going gateway tech and he's investing in a forge + pylons and cannons. A forge is not useful for upgrades that early in the game. I have seen plenty of games in the GSL and IPL where players thwart the rush with probe micro. I didn't mean that you should build a pylon to block it, but now that I think about it you could build your pylon and gateway behind the minerals so there isn't any way for the opponent to block and build a cannon. | ||
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
Btw, playing on this map is even further improved by listening to the following song: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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