• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:26
CEST 17:26
KST 00:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202528RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me)
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Corsair Pursuit Micro? Pro gamer house photos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 923 users

[D] Reflection vs. Rotational Symmetry in (4) 1v1 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
SaltyDog
Profile Joined January 2011
Uganda73 Posts
February 14 2011 23:20 GMT
#21
Rotational symmetry in 1v1 maps like Xel'Naga Caverns is clearly a great thing. Rotationally symmetric maps look less symmetric, more natural and so are more aesthetically pleasing. Rotational symmetry in 2v2 maps like Delta Quadrant (in the context of a 1v1 match) creates inerrant imbalance excluding cross positions. Also, trying to limit this positional imbalance stems creativity to an extent; rotational symmetry in 2v2 maps tends to encourage large, reflected center areas with small, rotated main bases (it would be interesting to see a map that did this the other way around) which is not necessarily bad but a bit monotonous.

Although reflective symmetry is a little weird in 1v1 maps, in 2v2 it enables varied strategy in relation to spawn positions without inherent positional imbalance. Lost temple, Metalopolis, Shakuras plateau, all the poplar 2v2 maps have bi-axial, reflective symmetry.

So rotation for 1v1, reflection for 2v2. Although it's all about the 1v1 play, so why bother making 2v2 maps? Big, rotational 1v1s with lots of expansions are the way forward imo.
I'm unemployed, so I make maps.
ggb667
Profile Joined June 2007
United States16 Posts
February 23 2011 20:14 GMT
#22
I have read these threads on symmetry and am unconvinced it is needed. If positions are substantially similar in terms of distance, expansions, and choke points I can't see why the map should be a mirror or rotationally symmetric in each case. It also limits the influence of the map on strategy. It should be OK for some positions to encourage expansion or turtling as long as the overall win percentage from each starting position for each race is identical.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life.
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-23 22:28:42
February 23 2011 20:23 GMT
#23
On February 24 2011 05:14 ggb667 wrote:
I have read these threads on symmetry and am unconvinced it is needed. If positions are substantially similar in terms of distance, expansions, and choke points I can't see why the map should be a mirror or rotationally symmetric in each case. It also limits the influence of the map on strategy. It should be OK for some positions to encourage expansion or turtling as long as the overall win percentage from each starting position for each race is identical.


Yeah, good luck doing that. Once you become Testbug (the mapper not the map), let us know.

P.S. Seven Sins ftw.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
ggb667
Profile Joined June 2007
United States16 Posts
March 09 2011 15:35 GMT
#24

Yeah, good luck doing that. Once you become Testbug (the mapper not the map), let us know.

P.S. Seven Sins ftw.


You agree the principle is right then? Good. Difficult? Yes, fun? Oh yea!
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life.
adso
Profile Joined March 2011
718 Posts
March 09 2011 15:56 GMT
#25
What iGrok is implying ggb667, is that you are sort of posting vs in a fan club thread, no one minds
mapmakers are the kindest of souls (inside)
but while i agree with you that it's fun that we all want, i concur that it's a hell of a task to do


thank you for sharing BoomStevo
mapmaker bow to you sir

Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 1
SHIN vs ReynorLIVE!
Maru vs TriGGeRLIVE!
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Rogue
Serral vs HeRoMaRinE
EWC_Arena7137
ComeBackTV 2307
EWC_Arena_21725
TaKeTV 557
Hui .493
Berry_CruncH298
3DClanTV 283
Rex252
Fuzer 247
CranKy Ducklings226
mcanning211
EnkiAlexander 168
UpATreeSC161
Reynor159
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena7137
EWC_Arena_21725
Hui .493
Rex 252
Fuzer 247
mcanning 211
UpATreeSC 161
Reynor 159
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 25985
Barracks 1943
EffOrt 1675
Bisu 1614
Mini 1157
Jaedong 794
Stork 566
Larva 495
Soulkey 339
Soma 271
[ Show more ]
Snow 128
ToSsGirL 95
Sea.KH 67
Trikslyr58
Sharp 56
Movie 56
PianO 48
sas.Sziky 41
Backho 41
soO 38
Yoon 28
zelot 22
Terrorterran 19
scan(afreeca) 17
JulyZerg 16
ivOry 5
Counter-Strike
oskar260
markeloff147
edward96
Super Smash Bros
Westballz37
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor189
XaKoH 112
Other Games
singsing2797
B2W.Neo1448
ceh9419
crisheroes376
syndereN212
ArmadaUGS103
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 12
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis5328
• TFBlade930
• Stunt797
Other Games
• Shiphtur40
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
18h 34m
Esports World Cup
1d 18h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.