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On June 02 2009 03:12 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2009 02:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote:
By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons. That's lot of theorycrafting. I'm sure you practice scenarios like this all the time so you would know the timings. Theory crafting? Maybe you should try to actually play the game and get a feel for things. How hard is it to realize those 600 minerals he spent on other shit beside cannons could have been 4 more cannons? You don`t have to be a rocket scientist nor a theory craft god to realize that 600 minerals worth could be 4 more cannons, you add that to the 3 cannons he already had behind the forge that makes 7 + the one he had in front. And yeah I have been cannon blocked like this on several occasions so the scenario is familiar. OK I will give you an analysis's of why JD was fucked that game. 1. JD does the overpool build, the worst possible build he could do against jjongas build. It leaves him with the worst possible econ without being able to kill it off with lings (a 9pool could have been out just time to kill it off) 2. Then he proceeds to miss place his hatchery (This is probably because he believed the pylon supporting the forge was further below closer to his natural instead of the side where it actually was) so it gets in range of the cannon forcing him to cancel. Now hes on 1 hatch larva production..... 3. When jjonga have 3 cannons with a 4th warping JD is still on 1 hatch production with 4 hydras and 4 lings. By now jjonga could have had 3 more cannons warping in that would have been finished well in time before that decisive attack came. Still somehow you people seem to think that JD could magically pull a bunch of hydras out of his ass without having the larva's to produce them. By the time JD could mount up a sizable force to break through there jjonga could have an expo up and even more cannons. And for everyone suggesting he could do a drop or something, JD was gas starved on a trashed economy with a scout inside his base seeing that he was doing 2hatch hydrabuild. Sure maybe he COULD tech lair, then drop and then drop out all his units (just how was he suppose to get gas/minerals enough for hydras, the upgrades, lair and drop?) but by that time jjonga could be sitting comfortably with an expo up or if he opted to tech have a corsair out in time to see whats going on an react accordingly. The only possible way JD could win that game was if jjonga fucked up somehow (which he did) like Daniel Lee said "All he needed to do was make more cannons"
Why would Jjonga need more cannons according to your logic? Jaedong was really far behind and there was no way he could've broken out.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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except Jaedong as nr#1 coz he's awesome and has more than twice the wins than Bisu since last PR.
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On June 02 2009 00:41 mark718 wrote:
Ya, this PR doesn't exist to me. I thought it was terrible when it first came out and have been ignoring it ever since.
By JWD's rules Violet should be > Bisu for next month's PR, no?
This post doesn't exist for me, as it's self-contradictory.
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On June 02 2009 09:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2009 03:12 Oystein wrote:On June 02 2009 02:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote:
By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons. That's lot of theorycrafting. I'm sure you practice scenarios like this all the time so you would know the timings. Theory crafting? Maybe you should try to actually play the game and get a feel for things. How hard is it to realize those 600 minerals he spent on other shit beside cannons could have been 4 more cannons? You don`t have to be a rocket scientist nor a theory craft god to realize that 600 minerals worth could be 4 more cannons, you add that to the 3 cannons he already had behind the forge that makes 7 + the one he had in front. And yeah I have been cannon blocked like this on several occasions so the scenario is familiar. OK I will give you an analysis's of why JD was fucked that game. 1. JD does the overpool build, the worst possible build he could do against jjongas build. It leaves him with the worst possible econ without being able to kill it off with lings (a 9pool could have been out just time to kill it off) 2. Then he proceeds to miss place his hatchery (This is probably because he believed the pylon supporting the forge was further below closer to his natural instead of the side where it actually was) so it gets in range of the cannon forcing him to cancel. Now hes on 1 hatch larva production..... 3. When jjonga have 3 cannons with a 4th warping JD is still on 1 hatch production with 4 hydras and 4 lings. By now jjonga could have had 3 more cannons warping in that would have been finished well in time before that decisive attack came. Still somehow you people seem to think that JD could magically pull a bunch of hydras out of his ass without having the larva's to produce them. By the time JD could mount up a sizable force to break through there jjonga could have an expo up and even more cannons. And for everyone suggesting he could do a drop or something, JD was gas starved on a trashed economy with a scout inside his base seeing that he was doing 2hatch hydrabuild. Sure maybe he COULD tech lair, then drop and then drop out all his units (just how was he suppose to get gas/minerals enough for hydras, the upgrades, lair and drop?) but by that time jjonga could be sitting comfortably with an expo up or if he opted to tech have a corsair out in time to see whats going on an react accordingly. The only possible way JD could win that game was if jjonga fucked up somehow (which he did) like Daniel Lee said "All he needed to do was make more cannons" Why would Jjonga need more cannons according to your logic? Jaedong was really far behind and there was no way he could've broken out.
I hope your only trolling, because if your not I am truly worried about your mental health.
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Okay, Jjonga obvious has nothing to do besides practice for his match vs Jaedong, meaning he obviously practiced that cheese build vs a lot of different openings. Also, we can safely assume that he does not want to throw the game away. Therefore, he didn't build more cannons more quickly because he didn't lose when his opponents opened overpool and canceled a hatch with his amount of cannons at each moment. Reasonable, no?
Obviously, that can't be what happened since I'm apparently trolling, so I guess the only reasonable conclusion is that jjonga wanted to lose.
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On June 02 2009 11:36 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Okay, Jjonga obvious has nothing to do besides practice for his match vs Jaedong, meaning he obviously practiced that cheese build vs a lot of different openings. Also, we can safely assume that he does not want to throw the game away. Therefore, he didn't build more cannons more quickly because he didn't lose when his opponents opened overpool and canceled a hatch with his amount of cannons at each moment. Reasonable, no?
Obviously, that can't be what happened since I'm apparently trolling, so I guess the only reasonable conclusion is that jjonga wanted to lose.
This is why no progamer anywhere ever makes any mistakes in any game, unless they want to lose (this probably misses your point but its hard to catch the point from the post you just made). Jjonga is also a B teamer who has a losing record in the minor league. It should be clear that his decision making can be very fallible.
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Erm, he followed a pre-planned build order. Every single pro can do that. I can assure you no pros make a mistake following an early-game build order.
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So people can`t choke and make mistakes in your world?
He was in a situation that his practice should have learned him that his opponent only had a single option after he had decided to go 2hatch hydra. He could do A. build more cannons and win 99% of the games or B. Make a gate\gas\core at home that he was in no rush of getting since he already knew JD had committed to going hydras or C. whatever other option that did not included securing the win by adding more cannons.
Sure maybe during practice his opponents might not have microed their hydras perfectly like Jaedong did when he broke out, but that don`t change the fact that all he needed to do too secure that game was making more cannons. You have arguably the best player in the world down in the gutter, why take chances when there is an obvious safe solution with a huge success rate....
So I guess by your standards jjonga played a perfectly game just as he had planned it to go, no mistakes in there what so ever?
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My standards is that jjonga played the game as he planned it to go as in practice, but Jaedong won anyways. Did you see how close it was? There was no reason in delaying tech since 99% of the time in that situation, the hydra break wouldn't work.
This is the most logical answer. Occam's razor.
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It was an unnecessary risk to take that more experienced protoss people would have realized what was going on an adjusted their game plan. You even say yourself how close that was, considering how close that was it should have come out with similar close results during practice and hence he should have known it and added more cannons. Its unbelievable too see you deny that he made a mistake in the game not getting more cannons. Is it really that painful in your fanboy heart to realize that the outcome of the game was pretty much out of Jaedongs hands?
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Calling people a fanboy is unnecessary, attack my arguments, not me. He followed his initial BO, which wasn't good enough to win.
" considering how close that was it should have come out with similar close results during practice and hence he should have known it and added more cannons. "
Yes, even you said how Jaedong's reaction to his build was the worst possible one, so why build more cannons? He did react by teching, as you said he should, and it cost him. It seems like you're the one that's contradicting yourself, now.
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I am attacking you, because no objective person would make the arguments you are making, and hence I drew the conclusion that you have to be a blinded fanboy.
How am I contradicting myself? Have I ever said anything beside making cannon would secure a win? When have I ever suggested that he should tech instead of making cannons?
Here is an example of how ridiculous it was that it compares to. Some Terran scouts the zerg going no lair 2hatch ling all in, all he needs to do to pretty much have the win secured is making 2firebats and a bunker instead of the next round of marines and extra rax he had in his initial BO. Would you say that player played well and did not do any mistakes when he proceeds to make more rins and die to the all in he have scouted... Or an even better example, Kal scouting that wemade Zerg go 2hatch hydra and then proceed to not make any more cannons. He played great since it was all in his pregame BO he had planned no mistakes there what so ever.
Edit : Also his initial BO was more than good enough to win, it gave him the game on a silver platter. That he then proceeds to throw it away with bad in game decisions.
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It depends, if on that particular map, the terran player was able to defend a 2 hatch rush with another round of marines, then why not?
The Kal game isn't even close to this game. jjonga adapted, but his inexperience or perhaps unluckiness with the cannons screwed him over. Kal didn't adapt since he didn't think Shine would continue going 2 hatch hydra.
I'm going to drop this since this isn't particularly constructive, since at this point, Jaedong will be number 1 given his overall performance, but that could change after tonight's match.
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On June 02 2009 10:13 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2009 00:41 mark718 wrote:
Ya, this PR doesn't exist to me. I thought it was terrible when it first came out and have been ignoring it ever since.
By JWD's rules Violet should be > Bisu for next month's PR, no? This post doesn't exist for me, as it's self-contradictory.
Mind explaining what you mean? I thought I was pretty clear in saying that I think this PR sucks.
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So you think the correct solution in Kal`s game was to assume his opponent would quit his halfway all in and proceed to not add cannons that would pretty much make him lose if he continue with the all in, and put him at a decisive (close to the point of winning) advantage if he changes his gameplan OR he could proceed to make cannons that would pretty much guarantee him a win if he continues the all in, while still leaving him at a big advantage (not a sure win but he would probably still have a 80%+ chance of winning given the fact that his opponents eco was already severely crippled to the point that he could easily afford to make 3-4 cannons and still be firmly ahead). Are you trying to say that the way he did it was the better solution of the 2 choices?!? Are you really suggesting that players should be taking stupid risky chances with little too no reward when there is safe options with very high success rates because that is pretty much what you are saying....
Anyway I am fine with dropping this, but have you even read my first post on the subject where I wrote that Jaedong should be #1 on the next PR given his overall performance, witch have been astounding the last month. Because I never been arguing that he should not be #1, only that he can thank jjonga for still being in GOM.
Edit : About the choices you make, look how for instance Flash pretty much never makes a bad decision once hes ahead in games. Say hes in a spot where he most likely will win if he continues on to attack but there is a chance he could overextend, while the win is pretty much a lock if he just sits back and ride the advantage hes gotten. Flash will then proceed to go ahead and do the choice with the highest total chance of winning and its the reason hes one of the best players when ahead. While people like jjonga takes those unnecessary risk that cost them games every now and then that better more experienced players would have played safe and won.
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"Are you trying to say that the way he did it was the better solution of the 2 choices?!?"
No, where does it say that in my post? I'm saying why Kal didn't adapt, not justifying it as a viable choice. You keep saying that jjonga should've adapted, and you also said that Jaedong picked the worst bo to counter jjonga's plan. Thus, jjonga adapted since he knew this by delaying his cannons. That shouldn't be hard to understand.
"only that he can thank jjonga for still being in GOM."
Well, obviously the opponent has to make mistakes. It was only a mistake at hindsight. Had Jaedong not attacked (which no one expected his attack to work, since everyone is surprised that it did), jjonga would've defeated him very quickly, and no one would point out that mistake, since it really is very, very small. If no one expected that attack to work, how do you plan for such an attack? You always take risks with BOs, if a terran can't scout a zerg, they don't build an academy earlier just in case of lurkers, most of the time the zerg doesn't 2 hatch lurkers. Likewise, no one expected Jaedong to break through.
"like jjonga takes those unnecessary risk that cost them games every now and then that better more experienced players would have played safe and won."
Kal vs Shine.
It's not just the inexperienced players, even well-known players get tripped up.
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On June 02 2009 00:00 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 15:02 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 01 2009 13:59 Sentenal wrote:
The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others. The map is not and never was Z>P, you say recent stats are more important, I say recent stats are 7-3 for Protoss. You want to suggest that the straregy you described is the best on the map and it's very hard to beat, yet seemingly the progamers think otherwise. Protoss can deal with it, watch games and not only where Zergs win, i dont have anythin else to say. You try to prove that a map imbalanced even though all time stats are even (+1 for toss now) and the recent stats favor Toss also, and your major argument is a build which was used ~10-20 times and worked maybe half of the times... On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote:
Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened. Do you think it has relevance? He lost one game which does not matter, Bisu lost a game which does matter. And Jjonga did not beat JD, he took one game and lost the series easely. Bisu's first place can be accepted, but not because Violet is a way better player Jjonga. The loss for Jjonga sounds really bad, but has no relevance actually, while Bisu's loss cost SKT the series against their rivals. There are situations where a loss weights more you know, and situations when nobody (but you) cares if one game did not work out as it should have. And they say Bisu fanboys are bad.... Did you even watch the games? jjonga had Jaedong dead in the water in game 3 before he choked massively and decided to NOT MAKE CANNONS and instead make 2 gateways when he have a contain his opponent HAS to try to break........ Jaedong didnt win that series, jjonga lost it. That loss on Medusa almost threw him out of GOM vs a pretty much unknown player, while you JD fans talk like it was just a little bump in the road and did not matter cuz he cruised through the other games when in fact he should have lost game 3 had jjonga been a more experienced player. With that said beside that series Jaedong is playing incredibly well and giving him #1 would fair. (but really him and Bisu are pretty much looking equally good, biggest difference have been JD playing more games lately due to being ace and GOM)
Well, i wont argue with you ofc, cuz your sc knowledge is way superior (you are the real Oystein, right?). But your last paragraph is prety much what i was saying all the time (I put in bold one sentence now), aside all the fighting with Senetal.
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United States12607 Posts
News: I'll be writing the June Power Rank. Be on the lookout for it sometime around the 10th (to keep my promise to push the release date closer to the first of the month).
I've stopped contributing to the discussion in this thread over the past few pages, but I'd like all the commenters to know that I read each and every post in here and appreciated most of them (yes, even the critical ones). So thanks!
I'm eager for the chance to follow up this month's rank!
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Hey! JWD, I wonder what type of criteria will you use this time? Honestly, I'd like it better if you didn't use past author's criteria but stuck with your own or maybe try a new one.
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EPT
