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On June 01 2009 13:59 Sentenal wrote:
The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others.
The map is not and never was Z>P, you say recent stats are more important, I say recent stats are 7-3 for Protoss. You want to suggest that the straregy you described is the best on the map and it's very hard to beat, yet seemingly the progamers think otherwise. Protoss can deal with it, watch games and not only where Zergs win, i dont have anythin else to say. You try to prove that a map imbalanced even though all time stats are even (+1 for toss now) and the recent stats favor Toss also, and your major argument is a build which was used ~10-20 times and worked maybe half of the times...
On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote:
Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
Do you think it has relevance? He lost one game which does not matter, Bisu lost a game which does matter. And Jjonga did not beat JD, he took one game and lost the series easely. Bisu's first place can be accepted, but not because Violet is a way better player Jjonga. The loss for Jjonga sounds really bad, but has no relevance actually, while Bisu's loss cost SKT the series against their rivals. There are situations where a loss weights more you know, and situations when nobody (but you) cares if one game did not work out as it should have.
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The recent stats are skewed in favor of zerg because of some clutch strategies that caused some upsets that could've *easily* been avoided by shit like observer upgrades and not being retarded. Sorry Protosses, it might be a bit on the Z side thanks to the temples, but no it is not some horrific imbalance.
Also, very recently, every protoss but Bisu has been sucking ass anyhow. Stats are misleading, short term, recent stats are even moreso.
On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote:
Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
Not a fanboy (Flash > Jaedong any day!), but Jaedong dropping 1 game in a series has never ever ever ever ever meant anything. Bisu dropping a PvP proleague game that could've very well cost his team the last match of R4? Violet's hot shit right now but I'd definitely say the two are atleast comparable.
Personally I wouldn't put JD over Bisu because Jaedong's done nothing special to oust Bisu and Bisu's done nothing bad (1 game means shit all) enough to drop.
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The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea.
If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things.
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On June 01 2009 16:18 Sentenal wrote:
The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea.
The "best" in this case seems to be, now, ultra heavily defined by pure performance since the last PR.
If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things.
I mean sure in the vein of the last PR where stats reigned supreme, I guess you could weight Jaedong going 2-1 against a relatively unknown dude against him. In almost any other sense though, it means nothing because it's just something Jaedong has almost always done. It's like saying cows moo -- it doesn't make him any less dominant.
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On June 01 2009 16:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 16:18 Sentenal wrote:
The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea. The "best" in this case seems to be, now, ultra heavily defined by pure performance since the last PR. Show nested quote +If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things. I mean sure in the vein of the last PR where stats reigned supreme, I guess you could weight Jaedong going 2-1 against a relatively unknown dude against him. In almost any other sense though, it means nothing because it's just something Jaedong has almost always done. It's like saying cows moo -- it doesn't make him any less dominant.
Which is more dominate, shutting someone out 2-0, or winning 2-1?
Jaedong dropping a game to a no-name is not a plus, no matter how you look at it.
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To me, every game matters... but taking a loss while going 2-1 in a Bo3 is different than taking a loss in proleague. It just is, I mean selection of builds is going to be different for a series.
For example, lets say that for a selection of 3 build orders there are three percentages we are interested in and we write them as a triple (L%,W%,P%) (stands for lose, win, pwn). The lose percent is the chance of playing 3 games with those builds and and doing worse than 2-1 (so 1-2 or 0-3), W% is the chance of going 2-1 and P% is your chance of going 3-0. Say you have 2 such sets of builds A and B with associated percentages A~(20%, 50%, 30%) and B~(30%, 70%, 10%). For a Bo3 you should pick the builds A because that gives you the best chance of getting out of the bracket, for proleague you would want to pick B because it would give you the most wins for your team over time. You do get situations where different selection of builds differ in these ways... for example Fantasy does better in Leagues than in Proleague, and Flash does better in Proleague than in Leagues.
On the other hand it does not matter because Bisu got pwned much harder than Jaedong.
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lol at people saying Jaedong's loss in a GOM bracket that he won should put him below Bisu... :/. Really?
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On June 01 2009 17:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 16:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 01 2009 16:18 Sentenal wrote:
The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea. The "best" in this case seems to be, now, ultra heavily defined by pure performance since the last PR. If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things. I mean sure in the vein of the last PR where stats reigned supreme, I guess you could weight Jaedong going 2-1 against a relatively unknown dude against him. In almost any other sense though, it means nothing because it's just something Jaedong has almost always done. It's like saying cows moo -- it doesn't make him any less dominant. Which is more dominate, shutting someone out 2-0, or winning 2-1? Jaedong dropping a game to a no-name is not a plus, no matter how you look at it.
The best part is no one ever said it was a plus. You are doing a wonderful job of shoving words into peoples' mouths.
The point is, Jaedong dropping a game in a series that he still wins is insignificant. A non-issue. Not even worth a passing glance. Sure if you 2-0 everyone everytime it's more 'dominant' but almost ritual 2-1ing everyone means he's still beating everyone. That's the beauty of a series.
Bisu losing a game in his recently Jaedong-esque PvP in proleague (With his team going 1-3 as a result) is much more important, gamewise, even if the player was better (honestly a month ago and most people would've considered Violet no more a threat than Jjonga.)
But that is not enough reason to drop Bisu a rank anyhow.
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On June 01 2009 17:38 Sentenal wrote:
Which is more dominate, shutting someone out 2-0, or winning 2-1?
Jaedong dropping a game to a no-name is not a plus, no matter how you look at it.
It's not a plus, but I think "Power" is about winning when it matters.
I also think there are long term reasons why Jaedong should be higher than Bisu.
I would consider Jaedong the favourite in a BoX against Bisu. They've played a series twice, once in the 08 MSL which Jaedong took 2-0 and more recently the 3-2 thriller at GOM. Jaedong has a notably higher lifetime win rate +4% above Bisu. Plus Jaedong has proven himself more recently (winning the OSL).
Obviously I'm talking about when they're both on top form.
Last month Jaedong's play was a bit sloppy after taking the OSL and he deserved to be below Fantasy and Bisu.
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I can't believe that you people can sit there and pretend that Jaedong didn't type "gg" against a player he has no business losing against, simply because he won the next two games. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Yes everyone has said Jaedong didn't type gg against Jjonga.
God you are dense. It's like, Jaedong was a huge favorite over Fantasy, but he dropped 2 games oh no! Guess he doesn't really deserve an OSL title. It's not that it didn't happen, it's that A) It doesn't matter much B)Jaedong does this all the goddamn time why does this not get through to you? He's got a reputation for it!
No one's denying it happens. Everyone's saying it's not a big deal.
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On June 01 2009 18:57 Sentenal wrote:
I can't believe that you people can sit there and pretend that Jaedong didn't type "gg" against a player he has no business losing against, simply because he won the next two games. It just doesn't make any sense.
That's because even at his "non-slumping" (90%+ winrate instead of "only" 80%) best, he loses games. Nobody should seriously expect Jaedong to win 100% of his games, even if the ones he drops aren't the ones you'd expect.
edit: misread, what I said still applies but not directly to what you said. JD should have typed gg regardless.
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On June 01 2009 15:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Personally I wouldn't put JD over Bisu because Jaedong's done nothing special to oust Bisu and Bisu's done nothing bad (1 game means shit all) enough to drop.
except jaedong didn't do much bad to drop to the rank 4 in the first place.
He just won an OSL and keeps dominating.
Imo he should be first until he starts playing bad, he faces bisu and loses or bisu wins something.
Losing the first game in a BoX and then winning the rest is not that unusual for jaedong. He has said in interviews that he likes to test his opponents strenghts.
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While I agree Jaedong should definitely not have dropped below Zero, his "mini-slump," and Bisu's hot streak was plenty enough for him to drop below Bisu by JWD's logic (RESULTS). Assuming Bisu at 1 and Jaedong below him before you make this PR, I haven't seen anything bad enough from Bisu or great enough from Jaedong to make them swap.
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On June 01 2009 20:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
While I agree Jaedong should definitely not have dropped below Zero, his "mini-slump," and Bisu's hot streak was plenty enough for him to drop below Bisu by JWD's logic (RESULTS). Assuming Bisu at 1 and Jaedong below him before you make this PR, I haven't seen anything bad enough from Bisu or great enough from Jaedong to make them swap.
Since when has the PR cared about previous months ranking?
There hasn't been any notion of it being "difficult" to displace people in the past (in fact Jaedongs drop to 4th implies the complete opposite).
Whether or not is should be difficult to displace people from the slots, I don't think so. Let's just put people in the slot they deserve.
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I think Jaedong is powerful...
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+ Show Spoiler +
Jaedong no1 should be certain now, incredible play on Heartbreak to take the ACE for OZ
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+ Show Spoiler +JD bonjwa, JWD dropping him down to 4 was a really terrible move, he shouldve not went lower than 2.
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Zero should disappear completely from this month power rank!
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On June 01 2009 15:02 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 13:59 Sentenal wrote:
The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others. The map is not and never was Z>P, you say recent stats are more important, I say recent stats are 7-3 for Protoss. You want to suggest that the straregy you described is the best on the map and it's very hard to beat, yet seemingly the progamers think otherwise. Protoss can deal with it, watch games and not only where Zergs win, i dont have anythin else to say. You try to prove that a map imbalanced even though all time stats are even (+1 for toss now) and the recent stats favor Toss also, and your major argument is a build which was used ~10-20 times and worked maybe half of the times... Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote:
Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened. Do you think it has relevance? He lost one game which does not matter, Bisu lost a game which does matter. And Jjonga did not beat JD, he took one game and lost the series easely. Bisu's first place can be accepted, but not because Violet is a way better player Jjonga. The loss for Jjonga sounds really bad, but has no relevance actually, while Bisu's loss cost SKT the series against their rivals. There are situations where a loss weights more you know, and situations when nobody (but you) cares if one game did not work out as it should have.
And they say Bisu fanboys are bad.... Did you even watch the games? jjonga had Jaedong dead in the water in game 3 before he choked massively and decided to NOT MAKE CANNONS and instead make 2 gateways when he have a contain his opponent HAS to try to break........ Jaedong didnt win that series, jjonga lost it. That loss on Medusa almost threw him out of GOM vs a pretty much unknown player, while you JD fans talk like it was just a little bump in the road and did not matter cuz he cruised through the other games when in fact he should have lost game 3 had jjonga been a more experienced player.
With that said beside that series Jaedong is playing incredibly well and giving him #1 would fair. (but really him and Bisu are pretty much looking equally good, biggest difference have been JD playing more games lately due to being ace and GOM)
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EPT
