EPTPower Rank 05/15/2009 - Page 28
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disciple
9070 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On May 31 2009 15:37 Geo.Rion wrote: PvZ wise Medusa and Neo Medusa are the SAME, only deviation being the proxy hatchery option which now IS REMOWED. artosis spoke about how insignificant losing one game in a series is, and style depndent also, listen that, i wont try to explain anything, but to come up with the Neo Medusa stat and trying to look smart by giving map-analysis is just pathetic. It's like you take the first 30 games from destination (say at that point Destination was updated to Neo destination and the mapmakers changed sg which concerns only TvP) and say, well Destination is fucking imba 64% for toss, because they can easely turtle and storm the bridges, and hydra breaks are so hard... And if you look on the Destination all-time stat is 50%, perfectly balanced. There are periods when one race is owning the other for a while, than they figure out sg and start to own and so on and so fort. You dont have to blame the map always Wow I can't believe I have to argue about how Medusa is Z>P. Have you watched any recent PvZ on Medusa? Have you read what anyone else thinks of Medusa? I wasn't "trying to look smart", rather I was stating a well accepted fact. So here is how PvZ on Medusa works out. Firstly, Medusa is a map where you have to Forge FE on. Due to this, Zerg will have early-midgame map control. Zerglings or Lurkers will make quick work of the temples in the middle. By killing the temples, the Zerg opens up a new front against the Protoss. In response to this, the Protoss must build enough cannons at his mineral only to defend against that. And after that, the Zerg doom drops your main. In order to also be safe from this, the main must be cannoned as well. This is the strategy that is currently dominating Protosses right now. Forcing the Protoss it make defense everywhere lets the Zerg take the map, and then win. And it is a fact that Jaedong lost to a no-name Protoss when the metagame of Medusa is Z>P. Also, what kind of stats are more valid in a talk about the current metagame? Stats from half a year ago when the map first came out, or stats from the past couple of months? Trends in recent history are much more valid. And who cares if Artosis says losing a game in a series is insignificant. It doesn't change the fact that it happened. Unless you want to live in a magical fairy land, Jaedong lost a game to some no name Protoss on a Z>P map. You can't wish that away no matter how hard you fanboy. | ||
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Orbifold
United States1922 Posts
Bisu def for #2 though. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On May 31 2009 06:31 Klive5ive wrote: Yeah I agree, something along those lines would be cool. Not putting too much thought into it I would probably go: 1.Jaedong - 10-1 this month; the game he lost didn't even matter as he came back 2-1. 2.Bisu - 7-1 this month; losing the mirror match to Violet drops him just below JD imo. 3.Effort - A whopping 14-2 this month, only losing to Bisu and Yarnc. Including a dominating 2-0, 2-0 in his OSL campaign. Since his disappointing winners league performances; this dude is on a rich vein of form. 4. Flash - Lots of tough games this month, he did beat Fantasy and Skyhigh this month so I would struggle to place him lower. 5. Leta - 7-3 this week. Recently he looks like he's got some of his confidence back. 6. Skyhigh - 7.Kwanro - The notion of Kwanrolled! appears in many recent threads. Dominated in individual leagues this month. Gom... check, OSL...check, MSL...check Teach them well, Savior does. 8.Fantasy - losses to calm, hogil and pure unfortunately. 9.JangBi - This master of lightning probably deserves to be higher.. but when you lose mirror games to Jaehoon and YoonJoong it's hard to make a case. 10.Stork/Iris/TheZerg Edit: Dam I forgot about Zero, he slots in somewhere. Yeah , after seeing Effort's spectacular games i too think he should be # 3 . After the top 3 it can be shuffled almost anyway . I would rather have some solid player as # 10 thank you , then TheZerg .... Maybe Violet , but i need to see his other MU's , PvP seems fine . Stork and JangBi should be in the low ranks of the PR and maybe Calm . Guys stop argueing about Jaedong and map imbalance on medusa . Jaedong's game had no effect on anything he might as well given it out of pity or something if he is confident that he will win the next 2 games . On Medusa the better player wins if you look at most of the games and not just the numbers on it you can see that the better player with the better strategy used won them the game . And then there are games where Kal scouts 2 hat hidras and epic fails , and Much doesn't scout the hidra all - in and rapes the zerg anyway .... You can't blame map imbalance , because zerg can use proxy hat on medusa , blame the protoss for not adapting well enough or not seeing it coming . And proxy hat is a well calculated strategy that only few players have used that have been practising a lot to use it . Still its a coin toss between Jaedong and Bisu for the first place . I would put Jaedong number # 1 this month just for the fact that last month he was lowered unreasonably to fourth place where his "slump" of losing 3 games in PL 1 of which was a ZvZ and 1 was a clever play used by.Movie , whom he demolished after in Gom . Not to mention he won the OSL finals in the same month with an impressive 3 - 2 comeback to say the least (second place was reasonable with Bisu's performance , but Fantasy especially after OSL finals and Zero were not .) | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On May 31 2009 16:47 Sentenal wrote: Wow I can't believe I have to argue about how Medusa is Z>P. Have you watched any recent PvZ on Medusa? Have you read what anyone else thinks of Medusa? I wasn't "trying to look smart", rather I was stating a well accepted fact. So here is how PvZ on Medusa works out. Firstly, Medusa is a map where you have to Forge FE on. Due to this, Zerg will have early-midgame map control. Zerglings or Lurkers will make quick work of the temples in the middle. By killing the temples, the Zerg opens up a new front against the Protoss. In response to this, the Protoss must build enough cannons at his mineral only to defend against that. And after that, the Zerg doom drops your main. In order to also be safe from this, the main must be cannoned as well. This is the strategy that is currently dominating Protosses right now. Forcing the Protoss it make defense everywhere lets the Zerg take the map, and then win. And it is a fact that Jaedong lost to a no-name Protoss when the metagame of Medusa is Z>P. Also, what kind of stats are more valid in a talk about the current metagame? Stats from half a year ago when the map first came out, or stats from the past couple of months? Trends in recent history are much more valid. And who cares if Artosis says losing a game in a series is insignificant. It doesn't change the fact that it happened. Unless you want to live in a magical fairy land, Jaedong lost a game to some no name Protoss on a Z>P map. You can't wish that away no matter how hard you fanboy. I just cannot belive my eyes. You are making a battle report of a game where a Z owned a P with a popular strtat and you totally ignore the rest of the games, and the possible failure of the build! If you count Bisu out (and i dont get why would you do that) it's still sg like 44-37(proxy hatch wins included). This still isnt Z>P, it's a small advantage. And you say recent games are more important. Well its 5-5 in the last 10 + Show Spoiler + 6-4 for toss actually EDIT: On May 31 2009 16:39 Avidkeystamper wrote: Obviously, then it's really favored against protoss. Bisu's better record on that map compared to others can only mean it's zerg favored. nice one^^ | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
There are strats that work well on the map. It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you. When Zergs are close to having twice as many wins as Protoss on a map, you know something is up. @raga4ka: I haven't been blaming ZvP imba on Proxy hatch lol. Proxy hatch was only used a few times, and yet Neo Medusa's balance is still 60+% in favor of zergs. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
On May 31 2009 16:39 Avidkeystamper wrote: Obviously, then it's really favored against protoss. Bisu's better record on that map compared to others can only mean it's zerg favored. I've not said its favored against toss, but Bisu's record on this map doesnt prove its friendly either. He just figured it out. KTY is showing its not impossible to win there ofc, but for the mid class zerg players (like Calm for example) is relatively easy to put on quite good results even against pvz specialist like Kal and free | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On May 31 2009 18:52 Sentenal wrote: I'm explaining to you why Z>P on Medusa (since obviously, you don't watch PvZ on Medusa). If you can't understand it, sounds like a personal problem to me. There are strats that work well on the map. It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you. When Zergs are close to having twice as many wins as Protoss on a map, you know something is up. @raga4ka: I haven't been blaming ZvP imba on Proxy hatch lol. Proxy hatch was only used a few times, and yet Neo Medusa's balance is still 60+% in favor of zergs. WAAAAAAAAAA i kill myself! Close to having twice as many wins? WAAA!! 47-46 ffs, if you dont accept this stat give me one argument that ZvP is easier on Neo Medusa than on Medusa. (for the 6th time, prox hatch is removed) I just explode how stupid what you just wrote is "It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you" Whta the hell? Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time? Why is the map 6-4 in favor of toss in the last 10 games, and why is the map almost perfectly balanced if we count every played game?? It's just sooo illogical what you say it blows my mind. Insiginificant, not an argument which concerns the PR, just a personal thought of mine which belongs to this:+ Show Spoiler + You remind me of a guy on another forum. He said sg like 6 goons, 2 archons, 4 zelas, 2 dt's is an unbreakabel protoss ball. now that guy played probably only single player, you watch pro scene. Your knowledge and analyse about the pro scene is as accurate as his about the game. EDIT2: Update: Now itt's 7-3 n the last 10, and this last game was played in a similar fashion you described, + a proxy hatch (it seems Gom did not update the Neo M. ) EDIT: oh, and i watch almost every ZVP on Medusa, and one thing i notice is that the strat described by you isn't the only one, and zergs even if they do, lose sometimes. Quite strange "given the fact" that On May 31 2009 18:52 Sentenal wrote: Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On May 31 2009 19:30 disciple wrote: I've not said its favored against toss, but Bisu's record on this map doesnt prove its friendly either. He just figured it out. KTY is showing its not impossible to win there ofc, but for the mid class zerg players (like Calm for example) is relatively easy to put on quite good results even against pvz specialist like Kal and free they both blow recently, or rather Kal is inconsistent as ever, sometimes plays well sometimes shitty, Free is out of his waters clearly, not only in PvZ. And Calm is the most efective player of the 6th ranked STX so... | ||
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Phradamon
Romania191 Posts
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On May 31 2009 19:38 Geo.Rion wrote: WAAAAAAAAAA i kill myself! Close to having twice as many wins? WAAA!! 47-46 ffs, if you dont accept this stat give me one argument that ZvP is easier on Neo Medusa than on Medusa. (for the 6th time, prox hatch is removed) I just explode how stupid what you just wrote is "It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you" Whta the hell? Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time? Why is the map 6-4 in favor of toss in the last 10 games, and why is the map almost perfectly balanced if we count every played game?? It's just sooo illogical what you say it blows my mind. Insiginificant, not an argument which concerns the PR, just a personal thought of mine which belongs to this:+ Show Spoiler + You remind me of a guy on another forum. He said sg like 6 goons, 2 archons, 4 zelas, 2 dt's is an unbreakabel protoss ball. now that guy played probably only single player, you watch pro scene. Your knowledge and analyse about the pro scene is as accurate as his about the game. EDIT2: Update: Now itt's 7-3 n the last 10, and this last game was played in a similar fashion you described, + a proxy hatch (it seems Gom did not update the Neo M. ) EDIT: oh, and i watch almost every ZVP on Medusa, and one thing i notice is that the strat described by you isn't the only one, and zergs even if they do, lose sometimes. Quite strange "given the fact" that Just FYI, I don't believe 6goons, 2 archons, 4 zeals, and 2 DTs is an unbreakable Protoss ball. No such thing as an Unbreakable Ball. Thanks for the attack though, it means alot to me that I remind you of people. You remind me of an arrogant Jaedong fanboy ^_^ Unfortunately, I haven't seen the last 2 PvZ on Medusa, so I can't really comment about them. Which one did they do the front door/back door pressure into doom drop in? I don't really care about the Proxy hatch one (since I haven't been saying Proxy Hatch is why Z>P on Medusa). I don't know why Zerg don't do it every game. There are times when Progamers decide to use a Strategy that isn't the main strategy on the map, for whatever reason. Like in PvT on Blue Storm or Katrina, Carriers are the best option for the map, yet sometimes people went for Arbiters. But that doesn't mean Arbiters are somehow a better option on those maps. The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced. With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it. Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On June 01 2009 14:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: So, it's not possible that the dragons (except Bisu) have been sucking until very recently? ??? What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying that the non-Bisu-Dragons sucking recently is why Neo Medusa stats are the way they are? | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On May 31 2009 19:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: Violet is crazy. 10 game streak against all races, with only a hiccup thanks to God's Garden PvZ and still winning that series. Shoe in for atleast a low spot. he honestly deserves more than just a low spot. | ||
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