HoGiL is actually Thezerg's stiffest competition for the 10-spot. He's come out of nowhere to go 5-1 in PL R4 including wins over Fantasy (who played a silly game) and Thezerg himself. Unfortunately, outside of those two huge games for Hite, Hogil hasn't had any trying opponents. Unlike Thezerg, he's also had the luxury of splitting Proleague duties with another decent Zerg. If Hogil gives us a good show in the OSL Ro36, though, he may be on his way to a spot in next month's PR.
GoRush and Casy survived OSL Offline Qualifiers and have been ACE's two most solid contributors in R4, but neither has done anything spectacular (in all fairness, GoRush did look like he was on his way to losing to BackHo in the OSL). Casy has a great shot at the OSL Ro16, but I can't credit him for matches that haven't been played yet. The funny thing about ACE is that their recent ascendance to mediocrity has truly been a team effort. Everyone's sitting at 60% winrates, and it's impossible to single out any one player who has been carrying the team (GoRush seems to me to be the secret ingredient, though). Also, for all their 3-1 wins in PL, I still just don't think ACE's players stack up against the best of the best in individual play.
by.great is Samsung's best player. W-w-w-w-whaaat? It's only too bad KHAN is playing so poorly right now, even their ace isn't good enough for PR.
BaBy has shown us some excellent games in GOM (especially against JangBi) and is beginning to make more appearances in WeMade's lineups, but he still has a whole lot of that "I'm a talented, but mechanically and strategically unrefined player" about him. If you need to know what I'm talking about, just watch the 2set of him vs. Modesty at GOM. Losing that game was pretty pathetic.
Canata beat sKyHigh to land in the OSL Ro36 and 2-1d his MST group. He's also back in T1's lineup for week 6 of R4 (over BeSt). Canata is playing pretty well lately (albeit in his "boring" style), but if a significant portion of your recent games are against RorO...you are not PR-worthy.
Shuttle is having a quite successful spring, but, like Canata, he doesn't have enough recent games under his belt to belong here. I wish STX would send him out more often in PL — he looked on point against Bisu on Neo Medusa. YoonJoong has a nontrivial chance of upsetting Flash in his OSL Ro36 group.
JangBi, Luxury, Stork, and by.hero: what happened to these guys? They're not close, I'm just mentioning them to point out they've all fallen off the face of the earth in one way or another since their appearances in last month's PR. Luxury is 0-5 in ZvZ in R4...what the hell is going on. And I feel you by.hero fantasy owners, your boy apparently isn't good enough to play for STX in PL (or beat his helpless teammate Kal in GOM).
...... ya bad I don't mean to troll but I disagree with almost all of your placings, I think that a lot of these players should be on here but def switched around a bit
On May 15 2009 12:14 Harem wrote: The SKT fanboyism doesn't show.
At all.
T1 is destroying the Proleague, and this ranking is substantially based on Proleague games. What do you expect? I made a conscious effort to avoid letting my fandom sneak into this rank - if you can point out specific problems with my rank, by all means! But I think a blanket statement about "T1 bias" isn't really productive. Honestly, show me the players that are better than Bisu/Fantasy right now, or read CBNC and find someone who deserves the 10-slot more than Thezerg.
I've got to run out for a few hours, but I'll be back to defend my rank shortly!
lol at Kespa but seriously, Zero above Jaedong? What were you thinking? Zero using infested was cool, it was new, but not something difficult and definately not something the #1 Zerg cannot pull off. Ok, I admit him beating Kal, Luxury, Lomo was an achievement but beating the other scrubs is not impressive.
I agree with Bisu #1 though. He deserves it. I'm ready to call him the first Protoss bonjwa
I don't like the idea of Zero above Jaedong. I mean, Bisu made Zero look like a noob when he played him. Not to mention OSL finals weren't all that long ago.
disagree with all... -.- Bisu First its ok, but fantasy number 2??? look at JD and Fantasy last 10 games... imo: 1 bisu 2 jd (close to bisu) 3 fantasy 4 zero 5 effort 6 leta 7 flash 8 skyhigh 9 dnt know
I agree with mostly everything on the list. I didn't expect to see Thezerg in the 10th spot, but you're right about there not being someone who clearly fits in there.
KeSPA is a definitely a formidable opponent. I doubt that any of these players can stop KeSPA by himself alone. I mean in every game that KeSPA has claimed, the victim made a very tiny mistake which KeSPA immediately capitalized on without hesitation or mercy. I don't see anything stopping KeSPA from reaching the #1 spot next month unless it stops itself.
LOL at Kespa, but I really think Great should be number 10. He's been Khan's strongest player and came up with a ingenious build to beat both Free and Bisu. I would put him at 10 just because he has had harder competition than TheZerg.
Nice PR, the only part I disagree is JD being so low...yes there hasn't been Starleagues for him to shine but I still can't see anyone able to beat him in a series except Bisu wich is what it's all about no?
Nice kespa rofl, and nice to see also SKT is on fire right now with all 3 races in the PR kinda understand your justification but tbh, putting SKT TheZerg in the PR is abit overrating him, there is a lot of Zergs equally good, or even better
On May 15 2009 12:32 Rostam wrote: Calm doesn't even get a passing mention?
yeah calm definitely had a better month than all of the cbnc (except hogil) and thezerg 10-3 with losses to bisu (#1), zero (#3), and great (mehzvz)
That's why I decided to use this spot to throw a bone to the guy I think is far and away the PL R4's most improved player, and a key contributor to its top team. Yay, it's Thezerg!
On May 15 2009 12:14 Harem wrote: The SKT fanboyism doesn't show.
At all.
T1 is destroying the Proleague, and this ranking is substantially based on Proleague games. What do you expect? I made a conscious effort to avoid letting my fandom sneak into this rank - if you can point out specific problems with my rank, by all means! But I think a blanket statement about "T1 bias" isn't really productive. Honestly, show me the players that are better than Bisu/Fantasy right now, or read CBNC and find someone who deserves the 10-slot more than Thezerg.
I've got to run out for a few hours, but I'll be back to defend my rank shortly!
Great job on the ranking from 1 - 9, especially the number 9 spot, but number 10 is debatable, thezerg has been doing well, but not like great who was ripping people apart left and right last month. I mean great even had the best record in r4 for a while.
On May 15 2009 12:45 FragKrag wrote: I like it. Good Power rank!
I agree with almost all of it, but I don't think Flash should be as high as he is right now :|
?
He qualified for MSL, beat Skyhigh, Notice, and Horang2 in proleague, dominated Pure in GOM. He hasn't done bad this month, he just hasn't done anything spectacular. Who do you think should be above him, exactly?
On May 15 2009 12:14 Harem wrote: The SKT fanboyism doesn't show.
At all.
T1 is destroying the Proleague, and this ranking is substantially based on Proleague games. What do you expect? I made a conscious effort to avoid letting my fandom sneak into this rank - if you can point out specific problems with my rank, by all means! But I think a blanket statement about "T1 bias" isn't really productive. Honestly, show me the players that are better than Bisu/Fantasy right now, or read CBNC and find someone who deserves the 10-slot more than Thezerg.
I've got to run out for a few hours, but I'll be back to defend my rank shortly!
People who deserve spot more than TheZerg/Canata: Calm, Iris, Hiya, Violet, Hyvaa
Btw, how about YOU take your own advice and watch the recent games of JD/Oz this month before making statements like JD's play has slipped or that his teammates are throwing the games for him.
Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
Jaedong should definitely be higher than Zero... Zero qualified through the OSL b/c he played a noname and on super Z-friendly maps... in GOM he beat a 4th string zerg, and he's only been playing on God's Garden and Battle Royal
Also, Skyhigh should be higher than effort, skyhigh's play recently is just unbelievable
and seriously, you can't find a better performer in april/may than thezerg???
controversial, absolutely. As a jaedong fanboy i can't understand how he dropped like that. - he lost to fantasy (tried to 2 hatch muta humiliate him) - he lost to hyvaa (for the first zvz loss in 10 games) - and he lost to ganzi and movie, both of which he beat right afterwards without breaking a sweat
the most appalling thing i think is Jaedong's placement below Zero. I seriously think if we saw a liquibet of Jaedong vs Zero in the next week, at LEAST 90% would be in favour of jaedong, shouldn't that say something about their relative skill levels?
To plexa: Jaedong went 4-4 in non ZvZ matchups since 4/10. (2 losses to Movie!) That isn't #1 PR quality. Jaedong shouldn't get to stay at #1 by default just because he was #1 last month, right? I don't see how someone can honestly think JD played better than Bisu, looking at the last month in isolation.
Probably #2 quality though, considering he still crushes in ZvZ. And Fantasy vs Calm was, ugh, not inspiring.
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Just how do you justify jaedong above bisu? Bisu since last powerrank and his losses against Fantasy have beaten everyone beside that sunken\lurk\spore contain that Great did. Also his opponents have been far better than the ones Jaedong have played vs (whom he have dropped 3 games, 4 if you included the one game he dropped in the series against movie)
On May 15 2009 13:19 Avidkeystamper wrote: This is the most controversial power rank since I've been on this site. Will be interesting to see how this turns out.
QFT. I can agree with Bisu's placement, and MAYBE Fantasy's. That's about it.
Also, rofl @ Thezerg on the PR. Seriously? He hasn't beaten anyone useful. At least by.great took out Bisu and free, then went on a 6 game win streak.
People overate how well Jaedong plays. I think Jaedong being at the 4th spot is pretty fair for a player like him. I don't understand why people like Jaedong that much, he goes into every game with the mindset that I'm going to out apm my opponent. Fantasy vs Jaedong is a clear example of that. Jaedong just goes into the game thinking I'm gonna control 2 groups of mutalisk and kill fantasy with it. He doesn't care about strategy at all.
Yes Jaedong went through a mini-slump, but if you look at his games atm they are as good as before his slump imo. Bisu #1 isn't unfathomable though, but Jaedong at #4 is - he deserves #2 at the very least.
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Thank You! JD at number 4? Really? Oh well, it all made sense once I saw the SKT logo.
@T.O.P. Even if that was true, why should different playstyles have an impact on a ranking of how good a player is if they still put up the results? That's your own criteria, you could create a flair-based rank and I'm sure at least some people would agree with your sentiment then.
On May 15 2009 12:14 Harem wrote: The SKT fanboyism doesn't show.
At all.
Ya I really agree with this. Jaedong should be higher then Zero I mean comon... Just cuz he had one decent game VS Kal he is all of a sudden the new hotness I don't think so...
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Thank You! JD at number 4? Really? Oh well, it all made sense once I saw the SKT logo.
Read Nal-Ra's analysis on the Ganzi vs Jaedong game.....Ganzi played the game of his life to beat Jaedong!
@JWD-I should say, than other than some placing issues I think you did an excellent job presenting your argument for your rankings and even though your logic is somewhat flawed, I can respect that.
I think if we were to make a poll right now, somewhere around 90% of the people here would pick jaedong over zero for this month. In fact, why don't we?
Poll: Who should be ranked higher this month? (Vote): Jaedong (Vote): Zero
I suggest everyone take at least a minute to think about the poll before voting so the results are more accurate for both parties. Don't just vote for your favorite player or because you hate one or the other. That's for everyone.
Fantastic PR JWD but I just can't get over how in the love of fuck is Zero over Jaedong. Also,I think Flash deserves to be a little higher, tho I like him staying at 8. Otherwise, the Kespa joke was priceless.
OK, let me try to address what appear to be the major complaints thus far:
1) "JD isn't high enough / JD should be below ZerO"
I think this issue is mostly one of interpretation of what the Power Rank means, precisely. I wrote this Power Rank as a ranking of the last month's most powerful gamers, and that is all. Obviously hypothesizing about who could beat who is a useful check for deciding where to rank players, but I don't think it should be the prime determinant of rank - performance over the last month of SC play should come first (that means "JD won the OSL" isn't so valid!).
And in this area, I think ZerO, Bisu, and Fantasy are all just a cut above Jaedong. Plexa, I don't see how you can be so sure JD would beat Fantasy, for example, on "any given day of the week" considering they are 3-3 in recent meetings and Fantasy was especially impressive in their most recent. And yes JD's losses have been few and far between (and he definitely picked up his play towards the end of this PR period) but ZerO has an even better record while facing a decidedly more difficult set of opponents (Calm, Luxury, Kal3x, Yarnc, Leta, Bisu). Another key point that I think elevates ZerO above JD for this month is that he's beginning to rival Jaedong in ZvZ skill as well (what big Zerg didn't ZerO thrash over the past month?? Only JD) - he simply had a better month in terms of ZvZ play.
Another aspect of JD's play to consider is performance in clutch matches for OZ: his losses to Fantasy and Movie in PL weren't just uncharacteristic, they probably cost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ - the two teams with which OZ is really competing at the top of the PL rankings right now. Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO have, for the most part, been rock solid in their biggest PL matches (ZerO's fresh loss to Leta in the ace of Hite-WJ comes to mind, but remember he beat Yarnc earlier in the match to give WJ a shot at the 5set in the first place).
2) Calm missing from CBNC
Actually, this is my bad. Calm definitely deserves to be in CBNC. I had this eerie feeling I was forgetting someone, and he's it for sure. However, I did evaluate Calm for the 10-spot and found he came up short... (read on!!)
3) Thezerg in 10th
When Power Ranking, wins and losses shouldn't all be given equal weight - even if they're between the same players. Much has to do with the context or significance of those wins: are they in high-pressure situations? Are they contributing to some crucial trend in SC right now - like a new strategy's emergence, a SL title run, or a great PL streak?
The primary reason I gave Thezerg the nod over a slew of other players with admittedly similar records is that his recent performance reflects a major turnaround not only in his individual skill, but the strength of his entire team. T1's remarkable dominance in R4 of PL (no this is not blind fandom, I mean for fuck's sake SK Telecom T1 is in SECOND PLACE in Fantasy PL at the moment) would simply not have been possible without Thezerg, and that means that his wins over the past month mean just that much more than those of say, Calm or by.great.
by.great does deserve credit for taking out Bisu and free with his innovative strat on Neo Medusa, but check out his other recent opponents: they're all powderpuffs. Not to mention great is sitting on a 3-game losing streak and he dropped out of GOM to ZergBong. ZergBong!!
Calm has a great record over the past month and he does deserve props for being alive in MST (though that may only be because his group isn't complete yet), but he's faced a similarly weak host of opponents. Young2x, RorO, Anytime, MVP, oDin, go.go2x, Tempest?? These are not players we should be impressed to see Calm beat. The nail in Calm's coffin for this PR was his absolutely pathetic performance against Bisu in MST...damn was that sad to watch.
Thezerg, on the other hand, has dealt with JangBi, HiyA, GoRush (yeah, GoRush is decent these days, especially in ZvZ on Battle Royal), and, most significantly in my mind, gave Leta a real series in the OSL Ro36. Yes he ended up getting embarrassed by wraith play, but do you honestly think Calm or by.great would have even taken a game from Leta? I'm a skeptic.
Switch Jaedong and ZerO; Zero was better this month, but he doesn't have the same reputation and aura of fear that Jaedong has. It's worth noting that both Savior and Bisu remained on top after losing an MSL final, because everyone was still scared of them. Something similar applies to Jaedong vs Zero here, I think. Switch Skyhigh and effort: Skyhigh has just better lately, IMO Switch Thezerg for any of the CBNC: I remain unconvinced about any of his matchups except his ZvT.
On May 15 2009 12:14 Harem wrote: The SKT fanboyism doesn't show.
At all.
Ya I really agree with this. Jaedong should be higher then Zero I mean comon... Just cuz he had one decent game VS Kal he is all of a sudden the new hotness I don't think so...
Please explain how my "T1 fanboyism" would make me rank ZerO (Woongjin) above Jaedong (Hwaseung)??
And if you think the only reason I ranked ZerO in third is because he beat Kal with infested Terrans...you didn't even read the PR.
On May 15 2009 13:48 Elyvilon wrote: Switch Jaedong and ZerO; Zero was better this month, but he doesn't have the same reputation and aura of fear that Jaedong has.
Seriously? You even said he was better this month. Come on... "aura of fear?" man....
On May 15 2009 12:14 Harem wrote: The SKT fanboyism doesn't show.
At all.
T1 is destroying the Proleague, and this ranking is substantially based on Proleague games. What do you expect? I made a conscious effort to avoid letting my fandom sneak into this rank - if you can point out specific problems with my rank, by all means! But I think a blanket statement about "T1 bias" isn't really productive. Honestly, show me the players that are better than Bisu/Fantasy right now, or read CBNC and find someone who deserves the 10-slot more than Thezerg.
I've got to run out for a few hours, but I'll be back to defend my rank shortly!
People who deserve spot more than TheZerg/Canata: Calm, Iris, Hiya, Violet, Hyvaa
Btw, how about YOU take your own advice and watch the recent games of JD/Oz this month before making statements like JD's play has slipped or that his teammates are throwing the games for him.
First off, what's your beef with me? Just curious.
Second, I have watched many JD games from this past month (wins and losses alike). In my PR I recommended select games in some cases, but never advised people that they should watch every game from a certain player or team...that'd be really time-consuming.
"It's worth noting that both Savior and Bisu remained on top after losing an MSL final, because everyone was still scared of them" It depends how much you want to follow precedents.
"they'll highlight each of his losses by throwing the match instead of bailing him out." ~.-
No offense JWD, but it seems that you looked at TLPD stats page for each player to assign their ranks. Since I only watch Zerg games, I'll only comment on the Zerg rankings (but Fantasy should be lower based on his vZ games, haven't watched his TvP though so, IDK ... either way, JD is still much more of a threat and scarier to play against atm)
ZerO is in no way the best Z right now. Having a better record this month doesn't mean any of his ZvX are better than JD's (which they aren't). IMO EffOrt's games were more impressive this month than ZerO's (barring the IT usage). And Calm and great are way more qualified than Thezerg for the #10 spot. TBH Thezerg's games weren't impressive at all (I was disappointed as hell with his series vs Guemchi). Even Hogil's games were more impressive than his.
Who thought that Fantasy's best match-up wasn't TvP. It's a fucking nightmare to be even think about playing Protoss against him. Fantasy's would give PTSD to some protoss players using only vultures.
I think you should put in by.Fantasy in as "Fantasy" so it doesn't break the PR layout and kill my eyes until the next one.
I think one of the key points about TheZerg is that he's executing builds that he would have messed up 3-4 months ago. Some of his wins I wouldn't call clean but they're wins and they might be scrappy and poorly done but he's played well and also been a consistent Zerg player that SKT1 desperately needed.
Nice PR JWD. I haven't really watched enough games to put together coherent arguments.
On May 15 2009 13:48 Elyvilon wrote: Switch Jaedong and ZerO; Zero was better this month, but he doesn't have the same reputation and aura of fear that Jaedong has.
Seriously? You even said he was better this month. Come on... "aura of fear?" man....
By this logic, Skyhigh was also better than JD this month. Therefore, Skyhigh should also be above Jaedong.
It's not just about how well the player did. Sometimes, a great player stays at the top because they were a great player in the recent past. I think that Jaedong deserves that luxury here, and I don't even like Jaedong.
On May 15 2009 13:56 Saracen wrote: No offense JWD, but it seems that you looked at TLPD stats page for each player to assign their ranks.
I'm disappointed anyone would say this, because I've watched a ton of VODs this past month and really tried to focus on style and specific games over statistics in my writeup. If I get another shot at writing a PR, I'll try even harder to avoid mentioning records and focus even more on game quality.
You have to realize, though, that one of the main reasons I like to drop records or recent victories is I think that the PR should not only be a rank of players, but also an interesting-to-read reminder of what exactly has gone on in the last month of SC play.
On May 15 2009 13:56 Saracen wrote: No offense JWD, but it seems that you looked at TLPD stats page for each player to assign their ranks.
I'm disappointed anyone would say this, because I've watched a ton of VODs this past month and really tried to focus on style and specific games over statistics in my writeup. If I get another shot at writing a PR, I'll try even harder to avoid mentioning records and focus even more on game quality.
You have to realize, though, that one of the main reasons I like to drop records or recent victories is I think that the PR should not only be a rank of players, but also an interesting-to-read reminder of what exactly has gone on in the last month of SC play.
Sorry I guess I was just upset to see Thezerg over so many other more qualified (IMO) Zergs. I just don't like how he played this month (his wins were so blah). I appreciate the writeup, though, especially KeSPA.
On May 15 2009 13:48 Elyvilon wrote: Switch Jaedong and ZerO; Zero was better this month, but he doesn't have the same reputation and aura of fear that Jaedong has.
Seriously? You even said he was better this month. Come on... "aura of fear?" man....
By this logic, Skyhigh was also better than JD this month. Therefore, Skyhigh should also be above Jaedong.
It's not just about how well the player did. Sometimes, a great player stays at the top because they were a great player in the recent past. I think that Jaedong deserves that luxury here, and I don't even like Jaedong.
Nice writeup! As many others, the only thing that struck me as odd was the absence of Calm from the CNBC list. Also, if I had to guess as to why some are making a big deal out of T1 fandom sticking out in the PR, it's all in the Description field, not in the actual Ranks; there are a few too many references in the Descriptions to games with Bisu and Fantasy, I'd say.
Pretty scared of how big of a menace KeSPA can be to the other players, I hear it's become quite controversial and infamous among many viewers- kinda like FBH, but without the fans.
On May 15 2009 13:56 Saracen wrote: No offense JWD, but it seems that you looked at TLPD stats page for each player to assign their ranks.
He hasn't. Read his comments, he's been giving tie breaks to players who have played well and given a lot of weight to the severity of the matches in the last month. Also note that he isn't using Mani's crieterion of "Top 10 SC players who you wouldn't want to play against for your soul" hence why Jaedong's "aura of fear" comment doesn't fly.
It's just different from Fakesteve, who tends to give a lot of weight to how well he thinks players have been playing over players who produce solid results.
On May 15 2009 14:04 Zato-1 wrote: Also, if I had to guess as to why some are making a big deal out of T1 fandom sticking out in the PR, it's all in the Description field, not in the actual Ranks; there are a few too many references in the Descriptions to games with Bisu and Fantasy, I'd say.
Considering I ranked Bisu and Fantasy 1/2, I figured it would be important to use other players' games against them to benchmark those players' performance. Also, games against other players in the PR are obviously most relevant to the rank.
When writing this PR I considered intentionally burying T1 players to avoid backlash against "bias". Then I realized I objectively believed (to the extent that objectivity is possible) that each T1 player I ranked deserved his position more than any other player from any other team. If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't even be attempting to defend my rank!
On May 15 2009 13:56 Saracen wrote: No offense JWD, but it seems that you looked at TLPD stats page for each player to assign their ranks.
He hasn't. Read his comments, he's been giving tie breaks to players who have played well and given a lot of weight to the severity of the matches in the last month. Also note that he isn't using Mani's crieterion of "Top 10 SC players who you wouldn't want to play against for your soul" hence why Jaedong's "aura of fear" comment doesn't fly.
It's just different from Fakesteve, who tends to give a lot of weight to how well he thinks players have been playing over players who produce solid results.
Jaedong won the OSL last month. That apparently didn't count for much.
On May 15 2009 13:56 Saracen wrote: No offense JWD, but it seems that you looked at TLPD stats page for each player to assign their ranks.
He hasn't. Read his comments, he's been giving tie breaks to players who have played well and given a lot of weight to the severity of the matches in the last month. Also note that he isn't using Mani's crieterion of "Top 10 SC players who you wouldn't want to play against for your soul" hence why Jaedong's "aura of fear" comment doesn't fly.
It's just different from Fakesteve, who tends to give a lot of weight to how well he thinks players have been playing over players who produce solid results.
Jaedong won the OSL last month. That apparently didn't count for much.
The OSL games were covered by the last PR since it was late and as such are apparently not relevant.
On May 15 2009 13:48 JWD wrote: I think this issue is mostly one of interpretation of what the Power Rank means, precisely. I wrote this Power Rank as a ranking of the last month's most powerful gamers, and that is all.
It seems odd to me that the games for the last month are weighted so heavily in this. I realize that the power rank is supposed to represent current skill, and not lifetime achievement or anything like that, but people should realize that there are random elements in starcraft. That's why a win percentage over 60% is considered so good, and why top notch players lose to no-names all the time. So moving jaedong down so much on the basis of, what, 5 losses? None of which were in very important games either- that's ridiculous. Jaedong's play is still as dominant as ever, it's just that sometimes things don't work out for him, same as anyone else.
I'm a HUGE Jaedong fan, so there may be a little bias here, but it seems like most are thinking the same thoughts i am. Yes, for most of april Jaedong sort of feel off a bit...he only recently started bouncing back so I can accept that he may have missed the timing for PR. His record in april does not really qualify him to be #1. Sure he just came off his OSL title, but his results for the month do matter. In an interview JD himself says he felt himself slipping in April.
However, droping all the way down to number 4 is a bit much, especially behind Zero. I can accept Fantasy being placed above him as Fantasy did put up more consistant results in april, and both he and Bisu both have proven that they are capable of taking JD to his absolute limit. Zero however is another matter entirely, he played some great games to be sure, but he still has a lot to prove. If Zero and JD played right now, or even back in April when JD was in his little semi-slump, I'm almost certain everyone would pick Jaedong as a clear favorite. Likewise, i think almost any programmer would be more nervous about facing JD in any given situation than facing zero.
Zero needs more time and more big games to prove himself, and Jaedong would have to be suffering an actual slump, (rather than dropping a few games here and there in Proleague right after an OSL win), before i would consider him worthy of being ranked higher
Other than that, excellent PR....KESPA at nine, scary. it could very well explode and make it all the way to the finals of a starleague if it keeps up its current level of play.
Everyone seems to be reading JD in 4th as "oh, JWD must think JD sucks now". Please consider the possibility that the players above JD (ZerO in particular) have picked up their levels of play! The Power Rank is obviously relative - this means a player can play just as well as he did last month and still lose ranks.
There is no way, shape, or form how anyone can rank Zero above Jaedong.
The power rank isn't about a "who has the best stats in the last month rank." Zero cannot in any reasonable argument be currently considered a better player than Jaedong.
Players go on hot and cold streaks all the time, it's not surprising. Wins and losses can be vastly affected by factors of map balance, caliber of opponents, or just simply elements of luck in the games. Zero having a little bit of better stats in the last month does not automatically override the years of Jaedong's supremacy. Hell, even if Zero wins every single one of his game in the last month it is still nowhere near enough for him to be considered the best zerg. And while we're on that -- Jaedong and Zero are BOTH 8-2 in their last 10 games.
Yes, recent stats should obviously count more, but just because so it doesn't mean you can just completely throw out the past years of absolute dominance. The only way how anyone can rank Zero above Jaedong is if they somehow just take into account the last month of results and completely ignores, shits, and spits on any past performance beyond that.
On May 15 2009 14:16 JWD wrote: Everyone seems to be reading JD in 4th as "oh, JWD must think JD sucks now". Please consider the possibility that the players above JD (ZerO in particular) have picked up their levels of play! The Power Rank is obviously relative - this means a player can play just as well as he did last month and still lose ranks.
what, so 1 cute game with infested terrans during the off season means that zero's now better than the guy who won starleague a month ago, and easily wins 90% of the zvz he plays these days?
I just don't see how you can base such a big reordering off of a few off season games.
On May 15 2009 14:16 JWD wrote: Everyone seems to be reading JD in 4th as "oh, JWD must think JD sucks now". Please consider the possibility that the players above JD (ZerO in particular) have picked up their levels of play! The Power Rank is obviously relative - this means a player can play just as well as he did last month and still lose ranks.
Plexa would love to think that you think JD sucks now, but he doesn't and he holds the same views. The problem here is that your criteria is WAY WAY WAY different from any of the previous power rank. Yours takes performances soley from a one-month interval and focuses mainly on results. Honestly though, ZerO has put up way better results than Fantasy, and against equal level of opponents, this goes by your criteria, in the last month. You also need to take into account on each player's opponents played in their respective games as well. Did you factor in how NalRa heralded Ganzi's game as perfect? Or was it just another loss to a no-name?
If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
On May 15 2009 14:21 tfeign wrote: There is no way, shape, or form how anyone can rank Zero above Jaedong.
Unless they disagree with you, that is. If you want to rank players according to how scary they are, Jaedong should definitely be above Zero. Jaedong should most likely be ranked #1, in fact. And in spots #2 and #3, I'd put in PirateZerg and MoustacheZerg, just because they look like JD!
But, this is not about how scary the players are, it's about how well they've been playing lately. And throughout april, I find it plausible that someone thinks Zero was better than Jaedong. I would probably have given the higher spot to JD, but that's just because of how intimidating he is. Zero's been playing better than a slumping Jaedong lately.
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
This power rank has a complete lack of the benefit of the doubt. Other power ranks stress the name factor which is completely irrevelant in this one. Also, this one says (and shows) that it takes into account only the last month's games, while other power ranks are about the best (not best performing) player at the time the power rank is released. Consider when Hwasin was tearing it up at the beginning of the starleagues, effortly beating players such as Flash, Jaedong, and BeSt. I recall he got a spot like low 7s. He certainly performed better, but people knew from precedent that he was not actually the better player at that time. This power rank is revolutionary, perhaps too much. A good example is Mani's power rank, which heavily emphasizes the name factor or the fact that Bisu and Savior remained on top even after their drubbing in the finals. You're the first one to completely discard every factor except gameplay.
I'm among TL's biggest Zero fanboys, and even I wouldn't put him above Jaedong for this month. I think the PR looks good other than that though, as much as I dislike Bisu I can't disagree with him at #1 right now. I would probably go JD #2, Fantasy #3, and Zero #4.
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
No. Power rank has never been just about who's doing the best in the past month. Never.
It's about who's considered the best player. Power rank takes into consideration performance in the last month more-This is obvious and we all know that. But it is never solely just about that alone.
On May 15 2009 14:40 JWD wrote: Yeah Avidkeystamper has been one of the more vocal, but constructive, commenters in this thread.
Vocal, yes. Constructive? Nope. Any kind of criticism can be healthy as a reality check, but I wouldn't say his was constructive criticism. Not saying he doesn't make good points- just that his tone hasn't been particularly constructive.
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
This power rank has a complete lack of the benefit of the doubt. Other power ranks stress the name factor which is completely irrevelant in this one. Also, this one says (and shows) that it takes into account only the last month's games, while other power ranks are about the best (not best performing) player at the time the power rank is released. Consider when Hwasin was tearing it up at the beginning of the starleagues, effortly beating players such as Flash, Jaedong, and BeSt. I recall he got a spot like low 7s. He certainly performed better, but people knew from precedent that he was not actually the better player at that time. This power rank is revolutionary, perhaps too much. A good example is Mani's power rank, which heavily emphasizes the name factor or the fact that Bisu and Savior remained on top even after their drubbing in the finals. You're the first one to completely discard every factor except gameplay.
im just as mad at the power rank as you but, shit its just some guys opinion, and we should just ignore it
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
Power rank has never been about who's doing the best in the past month, Never.
Power rank takes into consideration performance in the last month more, but it is never solely just about that alone.
Neither is this one! Here's what I posted two pages back (emphasis added):
I wrote this Power Rank as a ranking of the last month's most powerful gamers, and that is all. Obviously hypothesizing about who could beat who is a useful check for deciding where to rank players, but I don't think it should be the prime determinant of rank - performance over the last month of SC play should come first (that means "JD won the OSL" isn't so valid!).
Note that "the last month's most powerful gamers" in no way implies I am ignoring results outside of the last month of play.
I'm just pointing out the differences in JWD's take on the PR as opposed to other's. I wasn't trying to be flamish.
Well, there's no point in being mad, since there's no changing it. I just wanted to clear some things up. I know that most people consider Jaedong a better player than ZerO, and JWD's opinion is perfectly fine under his criteria.
On May 15 2009 14:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: I'm just pointing out the differences in JWD's take on the PR as opposed to other's. I wasn't trying to be flamish.
Kinda sounded like that a few times. But you're right, there is a difference in how JWD made up his PR and how it's been done in the past. Whether it's for the better or for the worse is personal opinion- I for one liked it better than March's PR.
On May 15 2009 14:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: I'm just pointing out the differences in JWD's take on the PR as opposed to other's. I wasn't trying to be flamish.
Kinda sounded like that a few times. But you're right, there is a difference in how JWD made up his PR and how it's been done in the past. Whether it's for the better or for the worse is personal opinion- I for one liked it better than March's PR.
I'm indifferent; he just broke the mold. Maybe we should try to get a regular rotation of PR writers? It's refreshing (though not always fun) to be surprised by a PR.
On May 15 2009 14:16 JWD wrote: Everyone seems to be reading JD in 4th as "oh, JWD must think JD sucks now". Please consider the possibility that the players above JD (ZerO in particular) have picked up their levels of play! The Power Rank is obviously relative - this means a player can play just as well as he did last month and still lose ranks.
what, so 1 cute game with infested terrans during the off season means that zero's now better than the guy who won starleague a month ago, and easily wins 90% of the zvz he plays these days?
I just don't see how you can base such a big reordering off of a few off season games.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong won the OSL a month ago and subsequently got number 1 power rank for his performance at that point. This means you can drop it. Who cares what happened a month ago exactly?
It's old news man, Jaedong hasn't been playing all so awesome this past month so he drops. Would I perhaps switch ZerO and Jaedong? Maybe.. but ZerO has been playing pretty damn good and I always figured he'd be the next big zerg along with Effort if he could just up his consistency... which he has.
PR is about players with dominance in a certain month. It could be compared with that of the previous month. But it does not on an accumulative basis such as Mr.Bull**** KeSPA Rank. That's my understanding.
I'm OK with the most part of May rank except Zero and Jaedong.
On May 15 2009 14:40 JWD wrote: Yeah Avidkeystamper has been one of the more vocal, but constructive, commenters in this thread.
I do agree that my posts are neither vocal nor constructive, as I don't have enough time to write long arguments to support my viewpoint, as well as English is not my mother tongue so I am not good at it in English. I am sorry too for that I don't contribute to the discussion quality of the thread.
But I still want to say this: I do think your PR is too biased and ridiculous for anyone to be constructive.
Ignore my post as it is not constructive I knew this when I post it and moderator ban me please if I break any rules of "not repecting the PR author and his effort" or "making unconstructive posts intentionally".
And probably SKT1 fans will flame me straight-forwardly like me flaming you. LOL
On May 15 2009 15:00 cosiant wrote: Lol, this is basicly a flamming war between, SKT T1 avatars and Oz avatars, with the Stars ones stuck in the middle.
Edit: And glad to see Effort getting some recognition! I don't really care about JD and Zero... Zero just performed better in the last month. It's not the end of the world for JD fans.
On May 15 2009 15:00 cosiant wrote: Lol, this is basicly a flamming war between, protoss avatars and zerg avatars, with the terran ones stuck in the middle.
fuckin protoss conspiracies. Usin mind control and shit.
Watching Skyhigh play is so bizarre. It's not so much his crazy aggressive strats that impress me as much as his incredibly awkward defenses that he manages to throw together at the last second.
It's like he'll spend every factory production round on vultures that go straight to the enemy base and then has to defend his own shit against 8 dragoons with a single tank and some SCVs. I've never seen a player that has to use SCV defense as much as him in a long time.
My top 4 would be 1 bisu, 2 jaedong, 3 fantasy, 4 zero or skyhigh.
I think you're too hard on jaedong. After he won his OSL it seemed like he would fall to the curse, he lost 2 games to the new biomech strat based on early valks that he hadn't encounter before.
But he got his shit together and won the "series" eventually vs both movie and ganzi, and did it pretty convincingly. Leaving him only losing a game to Fantasy this month, a game which was REALLY close and vs a strategy that was really new. One vulture raid basically cost him that game, he played good and fantasy is really good too.
I will not even take the game he lost to hyvaa into account, since if he loses 1 of 10 games to zerg cannot really be counted for his PR as something negative.
I think putting fantasy above jaedong is abit balsy but not necissarily wrong, jaedong had abit of minislump right after his OSL and it has to count for something.
Ranking Zero as the new best zergplayer is very wierd to me. He had a good run this month, his should rise on the PR but you cannot compare him to jaedong yet, he has more to prove before being put above jaedong.
Also comparing their zvz skills is abit off, seing as jaedong is called the bonjwa of zvz by the korean progamers and commentators. Zero winning 5 games in a row cannot be compared to jaedongs 90%~ consistant zergratio over the 2 last year or so. Zero is 5-5 in the last 10 zvz and he definately have more to prove before being compared to jaedong in that aspect.
So even though I agree with the ranks after the first four I must say that the top 4 are more important. I wouldn't put thezerg at his spot, rather give it to calm whos gone 19-6 since febuary and deserves more credit than thezerg whos gone something like 9-6 over the same time. Since their recent performance (since last pr) is about the same, it doesn't seem fair.
Although I don't like that flash isn't getting his shit together I cant disagree with leta, effort, skyhigh and flash order as it is now. One reason being that I haven't followed Skyhigh closely as of late. I will look into his games and based on records alone he's actually a contender to a top 5 spot and perhaps above zero, since he's been consistantly good for a few months now whereas zero just picked up his pace.
Great effort and nice writeup but I disagree with the jaedong position strongly. I will quote PR from december 2006; A few hiccups isn't enough for me to call Savior Jaedong anything but the best (zerg).
Bisus 1st spot is accurate I believe. His winning percentage and gameplay has been flawless for months now with the exception of one days "bad" play vs fantasy. If you can just ignore that he had 1 day off and look at his record its breathtaking.
If jaedong hadn't lost a few games right after his OSL win he and bisu would be batteling for the first spot but as it is now I think jaedong placed as nr 2 (in my list heh)is justified.
w/e @ top 8, nothing really terrible in there. in the early stages of proleagues, there's a lot of creative liberty that can be taken with the PR and none of these are too bad (so long as you look at ZerO's placement as a nod to his success rather than a jab at JD).
lmao @ Kespa. a little part of me thinks that Kespa on the PR is a waste and should be showcasing someone that people should keep an eye on... But then a much bigger part of me thinks it's important that people are aware of the bullshit that Kespa's been using to rob people of games using strict interpretations of rules who's spirit is against bad manner, in cases that are purely accidental.
...but everything I've skimmed about thezerg is just insufficient. he doesn't deserve the PR and frankly, I'm not convinced he even deserves CBNC. he got booted from the OSL by Leta after playing uninspired and scraping by GuemChi and I dunno where he was for the MSL, but I'm pretty sure he's not still around there. Bisu + Fantasy @ 1 and 2 is sufficient to showcase SKT1's dominance, there's no need to gyp Calm out of what is pretty clearly his. Hell, I would've been happier with Baby @ the 10 spot because he at least has put up some games worth watch vs. Jangbi @ GOM whereas I really haven't seen any games I would recommend to someone from thezerg.
anyway, I've done PRs (for other games), so I know how stressful and ultimately unrewarding they are when people crucify you for every little decision you made... so cheers on a ballsy and well written PR.
I just noticed that Bisu is the only Protoss on the list. The only Dragon that has yet to be slain, eh? I wonder if one of Dragons like Stork/Jangbi will make a comeback, or if Protoss fans need to look to the next generation of Protosses for the next big Protoss stars.
On May 15 2009 15:59 Sentenal wrote: I just noticed that Bisu is the only Protoss on the list. The only Dragon that has yet to be slain, eh? I wonder if one of Dragons like Stork/Jangbi will make a comeback, or if Protoss fans need to look to the next generation of Protosses for the next big Protoss stars.
There is no other generation. The dragons were all protoss had.
On May 15 2009 15:59 Sentenal wrote: I just noticed that Bisu is the only Protoss on the list. The only Dragon that has yet to be slain, eh? I wonder if one of Dragons like Stork/Jangbi will make a comeback, or if Protoss fans need to look to the next generation of Protosses for the next big Protoss stars.
There is no other generation. The dragons were all protoss had.
well the first generation was reach, kingdom and nal_ra second generation was anytime, pusan and stork
and the third generation is technically the six dragons.
Great ranking. Jaedong as the second ranked zerg is only going to last a month, and I haven't watched zero's games to argue against their spots right now. Kespa in 9th was comedy gold.
On May 15 2009 13:48 JWD wrote: OK, let me try to address what appear to be the major complaints thus far:
1) "JD isn't high enough / JD should be below ZerO"
I think this issue is mostly one of interpretation of what the Power Rank means, precisely. I wrote this Power Rank as a ranking of the last month's most powerful gamers, and that is all. Obviously hypothesizing about who could beat who is a useful check for deciding where to rank players, but I don't think it should be the prime determinant of rank - performance over the last month of SC play should come first (that means "JD won the OSL" isn't so valid!).
And in this area, I think ZerO, Bisu, and Fantasy are all just a cut above Jaedong. Plexa, I don't see how you can be so sure JD would beat Fantasy, for example, on "any given day of the week" considering they are 3-3 in recent meetings and Fantasy was especially impressive in their most recent. And yes JD's losses have been few and far between (and he definitely picked up his play towards the end of this PR period) but ZerO has an even better record while facing a decidedly more difficult set of opponents (Calm, Luxury, Kal3x, Yarnc, Leta, Bisu). Another key point that I think elevates ZerO above JD for this month is that he's beginning to rival Jaedong in ZvZ skill as well (what big Zerg didn't ZerO thrash over the past month?? Only JD) - he simply had a better month in terms of ZvZ play.
Another aspect of JD's play to consider is performance in clutch matches for OZ: his losses to Fantasy and Movie in PL weren't just uncharacteristic, they probably cost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ - the two teams with which OZ is really competing at the top of the PL rankings right now. Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO have, for the most part, been rock solid in their biggest PL matches (ZerO's fresh loss to Leta in the ace of Hite-WJ comes to mind, but remember he beat Yarnc earlier in the match to give WJ a shot at the 5set in the first place).
2) Calm missing from CBNC
Actually, this is my bad. Calm definitely deserves to be in CBNC. I had this eerie feeling I was forgetting someone, and he's it for sure. However, I did evaluate Calm for the 10-spot and found he came up short...
3) Thezerg in 10th
When Power Ranking, wins and losses shouldn't all be given equal weight - even if they're between the same players. Much has to do with the context or significance of those wins: are they in high-pressure situations? Are they contributing to some crucial trend in SC right now - like a new strategy's emergence, a SL title run, or a great PL streak?
The primary reason I gave Thezerg the nod over a slew of other players with admittedly similar records is that his recent performance reflects a major turnaround not only in his individual skill, but the strength of his entire team. T1's remarkable dominance in R4 of PL (no this is not blind fandom, I mean for fuck's sake SK Telecom T1 is in SECOND PLACE in Fantasy PL at the moment) would simply not have been possible without Thezerg, and that means that his wins over the past month mean just that much more than those of say, Calm or by.great.
by.great does deserve credit for taking out Bisu and free with his innovative strat on Neo Medusa, but check out his other recent opponents: they're all powderpuffs. Not to mention great is sitting on a 3-game losing streak and he dropped out of GOM to ZergBong. ZergBong!!
Calm has a great record over the past month and he does deserve props for being alive in MST (though that may only be because his group isn't complete yet), but he's faced a similarly weak host of opponents. Young2x, RorO, Anytime, MVP, oDin, go.go2x, Tempest?? These are not players we should be impressed to see Calm beat. The nail in Calm's coffin for this PR was his absolutely pathetic performance against Bisu in MST...damn was that sad to watch.
Thezerg, on the other hand, has dealt with JangBi, HiyA, GoRush (yeah, GoRush is decent these days, especially in ZvZ on Battle Royal), and, most significantly in my mind, gave Leta a real series in the OSL Ro36. Yes he ended up getting embarrassed by wraith play, but do you honestly think Calm or by.great would have even taken a game from Leta? I'm a skeptic.
True great lost to zergbong in gom and is on a 3 loss streak, but two were zvz and the game v anytime wasn't terrible. Gom is also the place of upsets, so don't expect players to do well there. Calm is definitely doing well, probably stx ace now. TheZerg doesn't deserve the number 10 slot in my opinion. Lets see who TheZerg beat this season. Hiya, Jangbi, Gorush, Ganzi, and Modesty. Hiya sucks, no offense, but hes just not great. Hes definitely one of the better players, but its just not up there. Now Jangbi, it pains me to say this, but Jangbi's games r terrible. Beating him means nothing now. Gorush is on ace, don't expect too much. Ganzi and modesty are like who?
Not to mention fantasy also lost to scrubs too, so I don't see why jaedong is up higher.
The Power Rank is obviously just a fun, interesting and highly subjective view of one person as to who has been doing well over the last month or so. If you want a more scientific way of ranking players look at the ELO or KeSPA rankings. In fact I want to second Avidkeystamper's suggestion of having a rotation of people writting the PR, each giving a unique view on who's hot and who's not, preferably with a small introduction stating their criteria for the month. That would be awesome.
All that being said a couple of notes from my perspective: ZerO/JD - This one strikes me as a bit of a troll. It's sure to get plenty of reaction from the fanboys and seems a bit odd since the other rankings aren't just 100% based on last months performance, player reputation surely plays some part in ranking and nobody other than Bisu is close to Jaedong's reputation at the moment. On the other hand I've really enjoyed ZerO's play over the last month and Jaedong has been very mediocre. Mad props for making such a ballsy move anyway.
Fantasy - Don't like him at all but he has been playing well. Still not sure that he should be ranked this high tough, personally I think Leta played better overall, but that's highly subjective. Could be just that I'm a big Leta fanboy and as I said I don't like Fantasy at all. I also don't think that he played all that great against Jaedong in the ProLeague, that game to me was more Jaedong doing a crazy all-in strategy and failling hard rather than anything that Fantasy did. Also, ZerO's record for the last month is more impressive than Fantasy's so going by that alone ZerO should really be ranked above Fantasy also. In fact, other than beating Jaedong (whom I argue really beat himself) Fantasy has done nothing of note in the last month at all. Who did he beat? Sea (once promising, now slumping pretty hard), FroZean (are you kidding me, who doesn't beat this guy), ZergBong (see pervious comment), AnyTime (a decent player but not really one of the best at the moment), Horang2/Movie (both good players but still not terribly impressive). Meanwhile he lost to Calm (who is very good, this is fair enough) and HoGiL (what?). This record is really only barely better than Jaedong's less than shinning performance last moth. Meanwhile ZerO's losses (as you pointed out) were against Leta and Bisu (both top tier players, so hardly a shame) and his wins are against far more impressive opponents (Kal x3, YArnC, Luxury, Calm) for the most part. If you are going to be all about past month performance to the point of ranking ZerO above Jaedong then he should also really be above Fantasy is all I'm saying. Did I mention that I really don't like Fantasy?
TheZerg - This one seems very T1 centric and I think anybody who's not a T1 fan would probably disagree about this placement. It's fine, like I said earlier, it's fun seeing different people's perspective on the Power Rank, I just wouldn't place him there.
Lastly, no mention of Hyvaa? I don't think he's top 10 material but beating Jaedong in a ZvZ (statistically the toughest matchup to win for a progamer) as well as playing fantastic against Light (twice!) should get him a mention somewhere even if he hasn't done much else.
My 2cents for what it's worth. Overall, another great Power Rank, always fun to read and I'm not criticising it one bit, the above post is meant for harmless discussion fun only.
On May 15 2009 15:18 Origami wrote: Watching Skyhigh play is so bizarre. It's not so much his crazy aggressive strats that impress me as much as his incredibly awkward defenses that he manages to throw together at the last second.
It's like he'll spend every factory production round on vultures that go straight to the enemy base and then has to defend his own shit against 8 dragoons with a single tank and some SCVs. I've never seen a player that has to use SCV defense as much as him in a long time.
Dude... Flash uses SCV defense like every other game.....
I liked the PR.
Although I think someone else should've been there for theZerg (even though he's been a key to SKT's success) and JD over Zero! But I'll live. :p
Great writeup, bah @ JD 4th and below zero but whatever, I've only watched zero-kal so I can't exactly argue.
Still I guess the other way of looking at it is that Jaedong is still 4th after a pretty damn shaky start to the month, and he's still looking set to tear up all the leagues this month.
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Wow someone just put words on my thoughts after reading this PR. Seeing Bisu as nr1 could be ok, even though, as said, there hasnt been anything remarkable that should bump JD off the throne so easily.
Wanted to say that I liked the PR nonetheless, good read
SKT1_fantasy wrote: Whether it is practice or live, I am always calm when I play against Protoss. I don't really feel as though I will lose. It's just easy.
Good job JWD! I probably would have changed some minor things like switching Bisu with fantasy for example, but you reasoning for each position is sound.
And thx for stepping up and doing the power rank at all!
Your writing style is truly amazing, but in my opinion you could have done a lot better job with the rankings.
Jaedong lost 5 games : 3 PL, 1 in a series that he won, 1 in an MST group he passed. 5 losses which have abolutely no impact, since JD is still in all 3 of the leauges (count how many players can say this) and OZ is still sitting confortably on the first place.
He was clearly playing on a lot lower level than he should in APRIL, but since this month began he's on a tear again, he's on a five games winning streak, 8-2 in his last 10 games, and playing very strong.
OK, you decided to deny him the first place, that was ofc expected; even the second place, k, this was in the air too, but putting a ZERG on the 3rd, andh JD on 4th... You cannot be serious about this.
Let me analyze what you said about Zero, i'm just reflecting, i hope nobody gets offended.
"It's official: for the first time since December 2007, Jaedong is not the Power Rank's highest-ranked Zerg (holy crap, December 2007)."
Your first line is one of the biggest counter-argument for Zero being ahead, JD simply did not play bad enough or lost important matches to take the Topzerg title away from him. NO, this just isnt acceptable. Even if JD had dropped out from MSL this would be hard to accept... BUt he did not.
"Have you visited Zero's TLPD page lately? Things are beginning to look a bit crazy in there. Aside from 4-0ing his OSL group with infested Terrans for style, over the past month Zero has unleashed a ferocious beatdown on his fellow Zergs to prove that his LostSaga MSL practice hours have made him a premier ZvZ player to rival even the Legend Killer"
You are using the infested terrans (the whole protoss race is crying about how imba they are, and that map is) as an argument to prove he's good. His ZvZ is good, that's ok, but how can you say he's a rival for JD? He took 1 game couple months ago, and lost more than that, JD has NO rival in ZvZ, i thought eventhe most fanatic anti-JD-fans would agree on that. Zero beat Orion (so what?), Calm+Yarnc (they're good, gets a points for that), and Luxury, who previously destroyed him, when he was in shape, but now, Lux's play is just crappy, check his gameslist, everyobdy beat him recently. He played 2 people who are on this PR list, Leta and Bisu, got owned by both of them.
If you wanted to put Zero ahead of JD, for some reasons i do not understand, you shouldn't have even mentioned ZvZ, or the Legendkiller....
Zero is a dangerous zerg, arguably as good as Effort, arguably better than Calm, yarnc ..., but to compare him with JD.... No... His TLPD looks so good, but c'mon wins over Iron and Orion just cannot be taken into account.
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Just read this, i never even dreamt about a post like this from Plexa. Respect!
this is shit. zero above JD? fantasy above anyone? thezerg? sorry dude. imo fail. what does the powerrank represent? it is apparently just a joke now. kespa? who has zero beat besides b class players? same for fantasy.
ZerO's recent wins are all versus scrubs. (kal, iron, orion, baby...) his only impressive wins were against calm and luxury.. zvz no less. when he played Leta, he lost. when he played stork, and bisu.. he lost. zero should be above fantasy but not JD.. what are you trying to say here man....
fantasy has beaten JD once in PL recently.. other than that he has wins over scrubs only (e.g. movie, zergbong, frozean, anytime, sea? rofl)
Horang2 should be on this... recently he has taken down the likes of light, best, stork, hwasin, flash.... not to mention his strats are sick and highly entertaining
i would expect these kinds of shenanigans over at the other sc site.. but here? also, why is everyone like "thanks for steppin up? how hard is it to pick 10 hot players?" can i do it next? i promise Dazurg will be absent.
KeSPA played a very high lvl of play each time they won.. They walk on thin slice of mistake (yes, ONE mistake), and the opponent will lose and be eliminated.. Such level of play is indeed worthy to be in the Power Rank.. However, i suggest that KeSPA should be up on the top, the first, since any player who did a SLIGHTEST mistake, they will end up losing and failing horribly.
On May 15 2009 15:59 Sentenal wrote: I just noticed that Bisu is the only Protoss on the list. The only Dragon that has yet to be slain, eh? I wonder if one of Dragons like Stork/Jangbi will make a comeback, or if Protoss fans need to look to the next generation of Protosses for the next big Protoss stars.
There is no other generation. The dragons were all protoss had.
well the first generation was reach, kingdom and nal_ra second generation was anytime, pusan and stork
and the third generation is technically the six dragons.
What, Fantasy's TvZ is good? Since when? It's always been just mediocre. 50% lifetime? 4-6 last 10, even if 3 losses were to JD? He's lost his 2 last TvZs to hogil and calm. Career win% of 56 just isn't enough for #2 in PR.
Jaedong is 8-2 in his last 10 and still winning in pretty much every match-up, although his ZvT can be considered shaky. Still, not nearly as shaky as Fantasy's TvZ, (5-5 in last 10, and 2 of those losses were to fantasy). Bisu #1 I can accept, although he most likely will just fail in single leagues. Zero's #3 spot was fine, and had Jaedong been #2, I'd have been fine with it. But Fantasy just hasn't done anything to warrant a #2 place, he's just way below both Bisu and Jaedong and isn't even the favorite against Zero. Hopefully he'll drop out of both SL's so people realize he sucks.
It's nice to see TheZerg in the PL, and KeSPA is an obvious choice. I might have switched around the order etc of the #5 - #8, but overall it's a decent power rank, except for Fantasy being at #2 after doing pretty much nothing and having 2 terrible losses against Hogil and Calm.
I absolutely cannot fathom why Zero is above Jaedong or why, and this one really gets me, TheZerg is above Great or Calm, and the reason given is, "I remember thinking he wasn't good enough for the 10 spot." Almost a cop out answer. Great has been carrying Samsung Flash style lately, whereas TheZerg has the strongest team in the league to take the slack off. He probably plays in the least stressful position a proleague player can, and that was your reason to GIVE him the 10 spot.
I don't mind differing opinions, but that is just ghastly.
The entire Zero part of the Power Rank is worded almost as if you did it specifically TO say there's a better zerg than Jaedong right now. Sorry, there isn't.
yeah u gotta decide what u wanna dedicate the power rank to.. In the past I always had the impression it should show you the "best" players currently on a quick overview. I wasn't under the impression that everything further back than 1 month would be completely ignored. What if a player is seeded into both leagues and doesn't even have to play qualifications? Does it mean that scrubs take over the #1 spot just because they could earn some respectable wins?
I always understood "power rank" more from its semantic meaning in terms of "which player has the most power atm". And everybody knows that cept a top-form bisu, nobody has more power than JD atm. Not Fantasy and certainly not Zero. He would still easily pummel them to a bloody pulp in an important series and everybody knows it. Still they are ranked higher.... Honestly I think you should reflect the concept of "power rank" cus it doesn't make much sense with rankings like these...
This all seems correct to me, i dunno why people are whining about Jaedong not being higher. Now my favourite player is Jaedong but clearly hes slipped in the last month which is what the rank is based on, he even said he had a slump himself, and the players above him have done excellently all month it makes perfect sense. Otherwise every month would just be Flash/Bisu/Jaedong at the top because they are the theoretical 'best' players regardless of their recent performances, and wtf would be the point of a rank at all if you do that.
I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but this rank is really good. I like how it doesn't focus too much on star quality and "what the players could be doing" but rather on what their stats have been looking like. Nice touch with the "kespa" at 9th It happens to fit in perfectly imo, because TheZerg is relatively far behind Flash anyways^^
If I were to change some stuff though, I'd push Zero down to 5th and push effort down to 8th, but unlike JWC, I haven't studied their stats all that much (and missed a couple of ProLeague matches recently).
PS: where are the tosses? 4 Ts, 4 Zs, 1 P and 1 incompetent establishment. Me likes.
Even though I've read your justifications, I still think Zero > JaeDong was a mistake. Other than that it looks right to me. The other case you could make is TheZerg @ 10, but frankly, that spot could go to 10 players so it's not a big deal. Thanks JWD.
JWD props to you for saving whats left of April's power rank .
But seeing TheZerg at ten is a bit random to me .Well i guess this months is based heavily on performance i don't follow TheZerg that much and would argue that even BackHo is a far better player then him .
Also the shock of seeing the Jaedong fourth still hasn't passed out from my head . Zero has potential , but there is still quite a gap beetween him and Jaedong in execution .
I would argue that Fantasy sucks at the #2 spot , but the Great Minds here have their reasonings , his TvZ sucks thought even if it is original or crap like that .
On May 15 2009 12:30 Chef wrote: Look how happy KeSPA looks in his photo... That's the mark of a true winner. Someone who really enjoys doing what he does.
And to think he can manage that true emotionless pokerface when dismantling so many great players, effortlessly.
Anyway, it is nice to see Bisu do well again. Hopefully, he will produce some great results this time around. However, I agree that ZerO over Jaedong is a bit hard to swallow.
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Thank You! JD at number 4? Really? Oh well, it all made sense once I saw the SKT logo.
First off, lol@KeSPA, I agree completely. An excellent satirical jab at them, good job!
As for the ranking itself, I agree with Bisu going back to the top, he remains dominant. While I'm sad that Jaedong is down, being a massive fanboy (did you know that his mutas are imba?), I have to agree that his PL play recently has been stagnant, especially that game where he massed mutas vs sairs... too stubborn to tech switch?
I just hope he can return to form for the OSL to hit two straight victories, because there's no doubt that he's an absolutely incredible player in terms of micro and strategy.
Maybe I like him so much because my only good matchup is ZvZ...
EDIT: This is pretty much what I'd do for rankings... 1. Bisu (actually KeSPA, but that's not the point) 2. Fantasy 3. Jaedong (sorry ZerO, but JD is still better) 4. Leta 5. ZerO 6. SkyHigh 7. Flash 8. Effort 9. GoRush (damn right! ACE zerg ftw!) 10. who the hell cares at this point
Hey guys, i figured it out. This is totally just a ploy from FakeSteve to show us that even though we may complain about his Power Ranks every month, there can be far far worse things.
I have only two problems with this. 1) I would drop Zero down to right above Effort. I just feel like, whatever the record, it's just not that impressive. Obviously this isn't in line with JWD's focus on the records, but still it's my point of view. 2) Calm is totally better than thezerg, even with the goofup versus Bisu.
As I said earlier I think putting zero above jaedong was a mistake. Same kind of mistake that let Luxury be #2 of last months powerrank, even though luxurys position was abit more justified it was still wrong and we got proof of that now.
It all comes down to what the powerrank really is.
Is it purely resultbased? Who had better results last month etc. This way many times the better players would fall under lower players who sometimes get a winningstreak. And then the next month the lesser player will fall again (most of the times) and this wouldn't be an accurate rank of who is the best gamer at the moment imo.
Is the powerrank a rank where you try to determine who is the most powerful progamer right now, by taking into account mostly recent results and gameplay?
Now I would definately pick the second alternative when creating a rank. And If you do too, can you seriously say that we have a new Zerg at the Zergthrone?
Zerg has had a tough time for a while with the 6 dragons but now they are back with Zero in the front line. Sounds really odd to me.
What has ZerO actually done to deserve a spot over jaedong? A winning record of 12-2 isn't that crazy, sure its pretty good but then you watch his opponents and it seems pretty obvious that his winningratio would be high, specially since he is really good right now (thus being on the PR at all). Watch Flash's streak when he was in top shape, or Letas streak when he was ripping up the pro league, thats the kind of results in proleague that would justify a huge upset like the jaedong/zero rank. But as it is now, it's simply not justified. Simply put, Zero didn't do enough. He didn't even beat players from the PR, this is usually necissary to get a top 3 spot let alone beat down the obvious master of the race.
There are some players that I haven't followed enough, such as Leta and Skyhigh. Therefor its very hard to rank them for me, but looking purely at results Leta seems like he's on a small streak right now after some bad performance for a while and his rank is way too high. However I will watch all his games now to make up my mind. This would be my rank.
1# Bisu - putting him under luxury last PR was a bad mistake and we know it now. He is always a contender for the 1st spot when he plays like he does atm, and whenever Jaedong slips for a while he is there.
2# Jaedong - He's a monster, he could all-kill any team just a month ago and he won the OSL. After he won the OSL he had a few losses, but he stepped up his game fast enough and won all the important games. The players he lost to were players he came back to beat later on to secure his place in all leagues. A few hickups like this isn't enough to place him any lower right now. He and Bisu is a class above the rest until someone steps up his game consistantly for some time.
3# fantasy - Fantasy hasn't played perfectly this month but not bad either and we all know what he is capable off. He's been in the OSL finals twice in a row and when he prepares for a game he can take anyone down. If the PR was based only on BoX performances he might very well take the top spot if he continues playing like he does.
4# ZerO / sKyHigh - These are fairly new players in the top ranks, give them some more time to prove themselves. There hasn't been any big matches this month. If someone of them takes a title soon I will gladly put them higher on the ranks. (take in account that I havent watched sKyHigh closely, just a few games lately and then watched his results so I might change my mind here I'm not sure yet.)
The whining about Jaedong is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he's the theoretical best or theoretical #2, all that matters is that he is performing at a lower level than Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO. Nothing else carries remotely the same weight in a power ranking - this is not a "prediction of the future" or "who has the most hardware" ranking, it's a measure of who has been the most dangerous opponent recently.
If you can honestly argue that JD has been a more dangerous opponent for the last month than ZerO or Fantasy it's because you don't actually watch games.
OK, I've just woken up. Let me try to address at least some of the many comments sitting here. To everyone offering thanks and well-thought-out criticisms: thanks for commenting! To everyone writing garbage posts in this thread: your willingness to make yourself look idiotic is highly entertaining, but I am not going to respond to your posts!
--
1) T1 and ZerO vs. Jaedong???
First, can anyone explain to me how liking T1 would make me rank ZerO above JD? I just don't understand this line of reasoning. As the raging, insane, frothing-at-the-mouth, I'm-going-to-put-every-T1-player-in-the-fucking-PR-for-no-reason T1 fan that I apparently am, I'm probably just as likely to hate ZerO considering he knocked Bisu out of the last MSL...and both JD and ZerO have a 6-4 record in their last 10 games against T1 players. Anyway, I really don't get this one...there must be some necessary connection between T1 fandom and JD-hating that I am totally unaware of.
2) Reactionaries
There are now several posters in this thread who have posted some strong reaction against my PR and then followed it up with their own proposed rank - the funny thing is, for how indignant their original reactions are, their ranks end up being near-identical to mine (maybe swapping 1 player or changing 1). Maybe I'm not as off the reservation as you initially thought?
3)
On May 15 2009 18:45 Geo.Rion wrote: Zero is a dangerous zerg, arguably as good as Effort, arguably better than Calm, yarnc ..., but to compare him with JD.... No... His TLPD looks so good, but c'mon wins over Iron and Orion just cannot be taken into account.
I would be honored if you'd answer this post.
I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Also I'd like to address your comment here that ZerO has been playing mainly scrubs lately. This really isn't the case. Yes Yarnc and Luxury have fallen off lately in ZvZ, but they are still immensely talented at the matchup and, when you're evaluating ZerO's ZvZ performance over the past month I think it's most important to look at consistency - i.e. he went undefeated across a host of high-caliber players, not just that he beat one or two "big names". Also take a look at Kal 3x. We all know Kal has been playing like garbage lately, but PvZ is still his best matchup and he didn't just lose to ZerO, he got obliterated. Even forgetting the infested game (which is an example of how ZerO is capable of adapting to new maps, Kal seemed totally unprepared for it actually), in game 2 of their OSL series ZerO proved that he's just miles ahead of Kal in this MU. That's a big deal to me. So yeah, wins over IrOn and Orion aren't the reason ZerO is in this rank. He's taken out other big names recently, and in an impressive fashion.
4)
On May 15 2009 21:11 Chill wrote: Nice writeup
Even though I've read your justifications, I still think Zero > JaeDong was a mistake. Other than that it looks right to me. The other case you could make is TheZerg @ 10, but frankly, that spot could go to 10 players so it's not a big deal. Thanks JWD.
Thanks Chill!
5)
On May 15 2009 14:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hey JWD, how close was ZerO and Fantasy to switching spots on this PR? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
The top 5 players in this rank are all absurdly close, so I'm not going to speak in absolute terms here. But ZerO was further behind Fantasy than Jaedong was behind ZerO, by some margin. The main reason for this is (and this is something which separates Fantasy from JD as well) that I see Fantasy as not only an S-class player who is in top form in every way, but also the game's biggest threat as a tactical innovator (possibly with the help of oov and boxer at every turn). We see this come out in his games every month, and last was no exception: hidden expo on Outsider vs. Anytime, for example. Fantasy's ability to come up with and execute unique and successful builds just puts him a cut above ZerO and JD at the moment I think, but Bisu had the far more convincing performance over the past month.
On May 15 2009 23:56 tedster wrote: The whining about Jaedong is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he's the theoretical best or theoretical #2, all that matters is that he is performing at a lower level than Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO. Nothing else makes the slightest bit of difference in a power ranking - this is not a "prediction of the future" or "who has the most hardware" ranking, it's a measure of who has been the most dangerous opponent recently.
If you can honestly argue that JD has been a more dangerous opponent for the last month than ZerO or Fantasy it's because you don't actually watch games.
You take into account mostly recent results and the way they played in their games to try to determine who is the best players at the moment. Completely ignoring everything before this month is going to show alot of false strength imo, although I agree that the last months performance should have the heaviest influence.
Going from not even being on the PR to being above a player, who's obviously strong enough for the #1 spot and just had a few hickups right after his OSL win and is playing great again, is just too huge of a leap for having a good record vs players that aren't even on the PR this month. He hasn't done enough to rise this much.
If he won a starleague I would consider putting him above jaedong but it would still feel wrong since jaedong hasn't done anything wrong. Jaedong wins almost everything, then he loses a few games and goes back winning again.
PR is a measure of success that necessarily favors recent results - otherwise there would be virtually no movement at all. It attempts to describe the current trending of players, and while it will always consider past tournament results and big matches the ranking would be totally useless without the "season-by-season" method of drawing new conclusions each month or so.
I don't think that the 1st 2nd and sometimes 3rd spot should be changed too often.
The players such as jaedong and bisu have earned the benefit of a doubt by playing the way they have been for a very long time now. A few games isn't going to change that.
The lower ranks 4-10 would still change around pretty fast.
Unless one of the very top players shows signs of slumping there is no reason to be too hastic to move them around the ranks. If a lower ranked player plays really good one month, he should move up, but before taking the highest spots he has to do something spectacular, unless the top players have played really bad. Zero hasn't done anything spectacular.
Stylish, I think you're missing something when you refer to "the new zerg at the zergthrone". Does anyone think ZerO can yet contest JD for "best zerg on the planet"? God no, that's stupid, and he has a long way to go. But every sport has seasons, and some teams have bad years. The Red Sox don't win the World Series every year, even when they have the best players. Sometimes they get outplayed for an entire year, despite being the better team. Does this mean they aren't the best collection of players in the game? No, they still are the most dangerous opponent overall, JUST NOT AT THAT TIME. And you can't rank them at the top of a PR in a season where they are losing too many more games than their opponents.
SC is very comparable to Baseball in terms of win% for good players/teams and some of the random elements that go into the game. Both have great teams sometimes losing to subpar teams and both have enough games played that the best usually rise to the top. And both see otherwise dominant players have off seasons - during which time other players or teams are able to rise above them for a time.
PR is a measure of success that necessarily favors recent results - otherwise there would be virtually no movement at all. It attempts to describe the current trending of players, and while it will always consider past tournament results and big matches the ranking would be totally useless without the "season-by-season" method of drawing new conclusions each month or so.
I agree that it's absolutely important to consider past-recent results (otherwise even #4 wouldnt make sense for player going 50% recently) but even as a major fan of JD his play has been lacking this month. If not for his success before this period he really wouldn't have a place on the PR and that is enough to justify a drop to me. I could see an argument for him at #3, but honestly I think that would be unjust towards ZerO who has quite clearly been the #2 or #3 player in the game over the last month or so.
On May 16 2009 00:13 tedster wrote: PR is a measure of success that necessarily favors recent results - otherwise there would be virtually no movement at all. It attempts to describe the current trending of players, and while it will always consider past tournament results and big matches the ranking would be totally useless without the "season-by-season" method of drawing new conclusions each month or so.
I think this is a really good point, thanks tedster.
As I said, even I wouldn't put Zero above Jaedong, but I think it's worth noting that lately Zero has had to carry Woongjin just as much as Jaedong has had to carry Oz. Everyone else on Woongjin is playing like crap lately, including Free.
I think part of the problem with a SC power rank is that the seasons happen so rapid-fire, back-to-back, that it's difficult to properly weigh a previous tournament/season's success with respect to current production. In most sports you have many, many months to ascertain a team's dominance, an off-season to scout them, and a new year to start somewhat fresh after the previous season's tournament.
In SC you literally start playing again the next day, and there's no time to stop and wait before determining where a player stands. At the same time, I think this virtually requires a shuffling at the top of the PR even after a short period of time if the previous top players aren't performing. It's technically a new season and you have to measure players on their performance in competition, at least to a degree.
I would like to stress the fact that this PR is actually pretty good. I like the writeup and the effort.
Our oppinions about jaedong zero and fantasy differ, but they often do.
The jaedong/zero is the only major mistake with the PR in my oppinion. Thezerg being 10th spot doesn't really matter that much, I would put Hogil and calm instead of kespa and thezerg.
I feel that this hasn't been a good period of time in the progaming scene to shuffle around so much.
So I hope you don't feel that I'm just whining, I like discussing the PR:D
After thinking about it a little longer, I want to make one more comment:
My problem with Zero's ranking is that I'm biased pretty much against all Zergs right now due to the sudden predominance of ZvZ thanks to KeSPA (hi, Battle Royale!). I know that the fact there's a ton of ZvZs now means having a good ZvZer matters a lot now. I know Zero's churning out results, and I know he's leading my team to ...decency? Yeah, that's another problem. Woongjin's sitting pretty on a mediocre record, and Zero isn't so good that I automatically say "screw the team record" (see: Flash).
So yes, this month Zero's earned the spot and I shouldn't be arguing with it. And part of me is jumping for joy (Whooo Zero!) But I hate seeing people get a spot I "know" is going to be ephemeral. When/if the maps improve, Zero's going to drop back down to a contender for the 8-10 spots - if that. Here's hoping I'm wrong.
A lot of the people complaining about the Power Rank seem to try and equate it to the Kespa ranking where it is based off a 3 month period. The Power Rank has strictly been a month on stats alone with blinders on anything before and probable after. People have dropped off mysteriously from one high rank one month to not being on completely. That being said, sure there are always issues with a power rank, but I think this one was fairly well done considering it was between starleagues.
this is funny, because everyone just claims fanboy even when this is mostly based off proleagues and elimination rounds. MST/ OSL offline quals... A lot of the players in the top spots have shown good performances in ALL OF THE ABOVE, or at least most of them. Bringing home to green is important. I think JWD highlighted this, and it's hard to hate on this unless you like dickriding JD all the time. Some slots could be varied, but what PR does everyone agree with. Give or take a few games, based on performances I thought this was a good PR, the zerg was a little hard for me myself to see in it, but he has been doing amazing things lately and stepping up. Leta I think should be higher, because he's getting scary again. With that said, I would've thought backho would be 10th but I dunno, maybe I'm dumb.
nice writeup and thanks... i'm happy that bisu is #1 again after losing so badly to fantasy.
it has been a controversial PR especially on zero vs jd. but anyway, at least all of us (i assumed) agree that kespa is included in this month's power rank... cheers to kespa! haha
why are people always saying Bisus pvz is super imba gosu ownage? is it because he revolutionized pvz in 2007? i mean its really good, but pvp is his best match-up i think.
Come on. There hasn't been a legitimate reason for why TheZerg is over Calm and Great yet.
The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
The only difference between Zero and JD in the tournament standings right now is that Zero is an MSL seed for getting 3rd/4th, whereas Jaedong is an OSL seed for winning the OSL. Jaedong lost more games to get there but...uh, since when did that matter? Jaedong has always dropped games before rebounding an obliterating who he dropped the game to to proceed on to wreck shit up. Everytime he has been the "dominant" player, he still dropped games in series/pseudo-series. It didn't matter because he still got everywhere he needed to get and always ended up playing like an absolute beast.
Jaedong is no different between these two PRs than he ever was when he was on top. Dropping him down 3 places for being as good as he ever was is a damn shame.
On May 16 2009 02:11 TwoToneTerran wrote: No, seriously, TheZerg over Calm.
Seriously.
Over Great as well!
Come on. There hasn't been a legitimate reason for why TheZerg is over Calm and Great yet.
Please see my comment on page 4 (I'll quote it for you here):
On May 15 2009 13:48 JWD wrote: 3) Thezerg in 10th
When Power Ranking, wins and losses shouldn't all be given equal weight - even if they're between the same players. Much has to do with the context or significance of those wins: are they in high-pressure situations? Are they contributing to some crucial trend in SC right now - like a new strategy's emergence, a SL title run, or a great PL streak?
The primary reason I gave Thezerg the nod over a slew of other players with admittedly similar records is that his recent performance reflects a major turnaround not only in his individual skill, but the strength of his entire team. T1's remarkable dominance in R4 of PL (no this is not blind fandom, I mean for fuck's sake SK Telecom T1 is in SECOND PLACE in Fantasy PL at the moment) would simply not have been possible without Thezerg, and that means that his wins over the past month mean just that much more than those of say, Calm or by.great.
by.great does deserve credit for taking out Bisu and free with his innovative strat on Neo Medusa, but check out his other recent opponents: they're all powderpuffs. Not to mention great is sitting on a 3-game losing streak and he dropped out of GOM to ZergBong. ZergBong!!
Calm has a great record over the past month and he does deserve props for being alive in MST (though that may only be because his group isn't complete yet), but he's faced a similarly weak host of opponents. Young2x, RorO, Anytime, MVP, oDin, go.go2x, Tempest?? These are not players we should be impressed to see Calm beat. The nail in Calm's coffin for this PR was his absolutely pathetic performance against Bisu in MST...damn was that sad to watch.
Thezerg, on the other hand, has dealt with JangBi, HiyA, GoRush (yeah, GoRush is decent these days, especially in ZvZ on Battle Royal), and, most significantly in my mind, gave Leta a real series in the OSL Ro36. Yes he ended up getting embarrassed by wraith play, but do you honestly think Calm or by.great would have even taken a game from Leta? I'm a skeptic.
I forgot this was the Proleague Power Rank. Like I said, your excuse for putting him in the 10th is that he's on a good team instead of a struggling one. I've always found it more impressive for great players to emerge from weaker teams, as they obviously have less resources. It should be a detriment that TheZerg is on the most dominant team this round, not a bonus to his success.
The caliber of players he's gone against isn't specifically better than the others (Great beat your #1, sorry). Using teams as an excuse to rank a player higher than others is a poor one. Might as well put Hiya up there because he beat Flash and other decent players and is on the #1 team, right?
But if the PR is purely about record and nothing else (and you're including team records as well since that's obviously a viable reason now), Jaedong may as well go win another OSL but not get #1 because he dropped 2 games in it. "Sorry, his 4 Losses between those 2 Bo5 series he won were more than X player who only lost 3!"
On May 16 2009 02:26 TwoToneTerran wrote: I forgot this was the Proleague Power Rank/
If this is sarcasm, it fails. This pretty much is the "Proleague Power Rank", since the vast majority of games played over the past month were in PL.
Like I said, your excuse for putting him in the 10th is that he's on a good team instead of a struggling one.
You've got the causation the wrong way around. What I said was that Thezerg's performance is what caused him to be on a sickeningly good team this round of PL, not that being on a sickeningly good team caused Thezerg's performance (and thus his PR rank). Obviously the argument "team is good -> player is good" is pretty much worthless, but it's not the one I am making.
Might as well put Hiya up there because he beat Flash and other decent players and is on the #1 team, right?
There's many things wrong with HiyA in 10th (like...for example...he lost to Thezerg) but the most obvious objection to this rhetorical question is: OZ isn't the number one team in R4 of PL...they're actually struggling quite a bit.
But if the PR is purely about record and nothing else
Absolutely no idea where you are getting this idea...from the original text of the PR through all of my responses to comments in this thread, I have consistently weighed other factors besides straight wins-losses.
On May 16 2009 02:39 JWD wrote: There's many things wrong with HiyA in 10th (like...for example...he lost to Thezerg) but the most obvious objection to this rhetorical question is: OZ isn't the number one team in R4 of PL...they're actually struggling quite a bit.
And flash is on the worst team of R4, so Hiya>Flash?
Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record. I mean sure, I like the cool infested terran trick, but that's not something that makes him better than Jaedong. I'm personally impressed by his zvz...but he's still weaker than Jaedong in that aspect, too. Oh hey he's qualified for GOM -- so did Jaedong. Well atleast he's seeded for the MSL, ah, wait, Jaedong just finished qualifying in characteristic style -- but hey being seeded should count for something, right? It's hard to get to the top of a league, so I'd give the edge to Zero here.
Ah, yeah, Zero also qualified for the OSL, excellent! Good player that definitely deserves it. Too bad Jaedong is seeded for winning it.
Zero is not as good as Jaedong. He has a better record in the past month because Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL. Jaedong has done everything that was expected of him, even so much as bringing OZ in a 3 game winning streak recently, but for that he gets dropped 3 places and called second best zerg. If Jaedong is the second best Zerg, then I'm The Emperor himself.
Onto Da Zurg, you literally said:
The primary reason I gave Thezerg the nod over a slew of other players with admittedly similar records is that his recent performance reflects a major turnaround not only in his individual skill, but the strength of his entire team. T1's remarkable dominance in R4 of PL (no this is not blind fandom, I mean for fuck's sake SK Telecom T1 is in SECOND PLACE in Fantasy PL at the moment) would simply not have been possible without Thezerg, and that means that his wins over the past month mean just that much more than those of say, Calm or by.great.
So, if Stork and Jangbi and Firebathero were tearing it up Bisu, Best, and Fantasy style, Great would be 10 because he shows Khan is not the SKT1 look-alike they've been for rounds prior, as now they have a reliably good Zerg who takes big games off top opponents, right?
Samsung would be in even a bigger hole without Great, so what? That doesn't make him somehow better. The names Samsung and SKT1 should mean jack all when it comes to 'who's the better player'. The other SKT1 players' performances shouldn't mean anything. But here you are, saying he's #10 because he rounds out SKT1 well.
On May 16 2009 02:39 JWD wrote: There's many things wrong with HiyA in 10th (like...for example...he lost to Thezerg) but the most obvious objection to this rhetorical question is: OZ isn't the number one team in R4 of PL...they're actually struggling quite a bit.
And flash is on the worst team of R4, so Hiya>Flash?
a) KTF isn't the worst team of R4... b) If you read my post you must know that I'm thoroughly opposed to ranking players based on how their teams are performing independently of those players' individual contributions to that performance, so I'm confused as to what you're getting at with this question.
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record.
This is simply false.
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL.
This statement makes you look either totally compromised by an affinity for Jaedong or horribly ignorant. As I covered a few pages back, Jaedong's losses to Movie and Fantasy in the PL are probably what lost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ, who are the very teams it is trying to beat back to maintain its position atop the Proleague. It's beyond foolish to say that match-breaking losses against the #2 and #3 teams in Proleague are "games that didn't matter".
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL.
This statement makes you look either totally compromised by an affinity for Jaedong or horribly ignorant. As I covered a few pages back, Jaedong's losses to Movie and Fantasy in the PL are probably what lost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ, who are the very teams it is trying to beat back to maintain its position atop the Proleague. It's beyond foolish to say that match-breaking losses against the #2 and #3 teams in Proleague are "games that didn't matter".
You are seriously saying Jaedong should be unbeatable in proleague to be better than Zero?
Let's drop Fantasy down a peg for losing the game to Hite, it's obviously his fault his team can't get three wins without him.
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your only reason for dropping Jaedong is Zero had, technically, a better record.
This is simply false.
On May 16 2009 02:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong dropped games that didn't matter after winning an OSL.
This statement makes you look either totally compromised by an affinity for Jaedong or horribly ignorant. As I covered a few pages back, Jaedong's losses to Movie and Fantasy in the PL are probably what lost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ, who are the very teams it is trying to beat back to maintain its position atop the Proleague. It's beyond foolish to say that match-breaking losses against the #2 and #3 teams in Proleague are "games that didn't matter".
You are seriously saying Jaedong should be unbeatable in proleague to be better than Zero?
Let's drop Fantasy down a peg for losing the game to Hite, it's obviously his fault his team can't get three wins without him.
Jeez.
Let's not oversimplify things and get sarcastic in this discussion, okay?
Alright, but if he's seriously suggesting that dropping a round or two in proleague are enough to demonize a top player because it 'lost his team the match,' then he should take into account Fantasy dropping against Hogil when SKT lost to Hite, and Zero dropping to Leta in the ace match of all things against Hite. But he doesn't -- these factors only seem to matter to Jaedong. He seems to place higher standards on Jaedong than he does a newer zerg, yet still claims the newer zerg is the better one. The only thing of Zero's that's better is his ultra-recent record.
Slightly stupid request, but could you please rename "by.Fantasy" to just "Fantasy" and "Thezerg[Alive]" to "Thezerg"? They're screwing up the layout of the PR on the right and it's just been gnawing at me all day..
On May 16 2009 03:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: Alright, but if he's seriously suggesting that dropping a round or two in proleague are enough to demonize a top player because it 'lost his team the match,' then he should take into account Fantasy dropping against Hogil when SKT lost to Hite, and Zero dropping to Leta in the ace match of all things against Hite. But he doesn't -- these factors only seem to matter to Jaedong.
Nope...I'm aware of (and have addressed, if briefly in Fantasy's case) both Fantasy's loss to HoGiL and Zero's loss to Leta:
HoGiL is actually Thezerg's stiffest competition for the 10-spot. He's come out of nowhere to go 5-1 in PL R4 including wins over Fantasy (who played a silly game)
I should specify what I mean here: I don't think Fantasy's game against HoGiL was characteristic of his overall performance this past month simply because he tried an extremely unorthodox (even for him) strategy that clearly led to his loss. That doesn't erase the fact that HogiL played a very solid game, though.
Another aspect of JD's play to consider is performance in clutch matches for OZ: his losses to Fantasy and Movie in PL weren't just uncharacteristic, they probably cost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ - the two teams with which OZ is really competing at the top of the PL rankings right now. Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO have, for the most part, been rock solid in their biggest PL matches (ZerO's fresh loss to Leta in the ace of Hite-WJ comes to mind, but remember he beat Yarnc earlier in the match to give WJ a shot at the 5set in the first place).
On May 16 2009 03:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:He seems to place higher standards on Jaedong than he does a newer zerg, yet still claims the newer zerg is the better one. The only thing of Zero's that's better is his ultra-recent record.
Again, no...I've never anywhere in this thread claimed that ZerO is "a better Zerg" than Jaedong without any qualifiers. My claim, and the reason that ZerO is one spot above JD in this ranking, is that over the past month of StarCraft ZerO has been more powerful than Jaedong. And in supporting that claim, yes, the fact that ZerO has a better "ultra-recent record" goes a long way - though there are plenty of other reasons I've ranked him above JD.
I'm getting tired of quoting myself to you, so I think at this point I'm just going to ask you to please review the text of the original PR and the posts I've made in this thread to see if you can find examples for yourself.
On May 16 2009 03:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: Alright, but if he's seriously suggesting that dropping a round or two in proleague are enough to demonize a top player because it 'lost his team the match,' then he should take into account Fantasy dropping against Hogil when SKT lost to Hite, and Zero dropping to Leta in the ace match of all things against Hite. But he doesn't -- these factors only seem to matter to Jaedong. He seems to place higher standards on Jaedong than he does a newer zerg, yet still claims the newer zerg is the better one. The only thing of Zero's that's better is his ultra-recent record.
The nice thing about power rank is that it's subjective. Everyone takes into account their own combination of streaks, mentality, team morale, map history, player history as well as countless other factors. That's what makes it fun
Who knows if losing those games lost OZ the matches? JWD has stated clearly that his analysis is based on the assumption that they affected team morale. I can see why he holds Jaedong to a higher standard because everyone in Starcraft holds him to a higher standard. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume OZ relies on Jaedong more than SKT relies on Fantasy or Woojin relies on Zero. Personally, I don't think that analysis should entire into Power Rank, but I can see JWD's point and it makes sense to me. He's stated his assumptions and I can follow their logic.
There's no reason to be surprised we reached a different outcome because we followed a different path. That's what I like about the Power Rank.
On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote: I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player? This is an argument so absurd I can't fathom where to even begin with. Again, you are spitting on all of Jaedong's past performance and is somehow valuing a bunch few unimportant games against low caliber players over a recent OSL win, years of absolute dominance, and still a rock-solid record. Did I mention Jaedong is 8-2 in his last 10 games?
And why are some people confused about the definition of the power rank? There has NEVER NEVER EVER been any questions about what the power rank really is. It has always been about who's the best player right now. Obviously recent results matter more, but how anybody can make any kind of sensible argument that recent results have shown that Zero is a currently a better player than Jaedong is completely ridiculous.
A couple more wins in insignificant games don't get you a free pass to be considered the best zerg. Period. If you debate against this, you are wrong. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has 3 more losses than Zero. It doesn't matter what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero is not the best current zerg. Nothing Zero has done justifies him as the best zerg. No reputable Korean e-sports analyst would consider Zero as the best zerg player right now. He has a lot more to prove. Try winning a Starleague, or at least top 3, then we can talk.
On May 16 2009 03:07 dmfg wrote: Slightly stupid request, but could you please rename "by.Fantasy" to just "Fantasy" and "Thezerg[Alive]" to "Thezerg"? They're screwing up the layout of the PR on the right and it's just been gnawing at me all day..
I also agree. I don't know if it's possible with the Power Rank code, but would you be offended if I changed it JWD? I personally like when it's just their ID and nothing else.
On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote: I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player?
NO. See my post just a bit up this page:
On May 16 2009 03:09 JWD wrote: Again, no...I've never anywhere in this thread claimed that ZerO is "a better Zerg" than Jaedong without any qualifiers. My claim, and the reason that ZerO is one spot above JD in this ranking, is that over the past month of StarCraft ZerO has been more powerful than Jaedong. And in supporting that claim, yes, the fact that ZerO has a better "ultra-recent record" goes a long way - though there are plenty of other reasons I've ranked him above JD.
On May 16 2009 03:07 dmfg wrote: Slightly stupid request, but could you please rename "by.Fantasy" to just "Fantasy" and "Thezerg[Alive]" to "Thezerg"? They're screwing up the layout of the PR on the right and it's just been gnawing at me all day..
I also agree. I don't know if it's possible with the Power Rank code, but would you be offended if I changed it JWD? I personally like when it's just their ID and nothing else.
Not at all, in fact this is a change I'd like to see too. FakeSteve entered the names this way and I don't have the capability to edit them (or the OP ). So go ahead!
On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote: I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player? This is an argument so absurd I can't fathom where to even begin with. Again, you are spitting on all of Jaedong's past performance and is somehow valuing a bunch few unimportant games against low caliber players over a recent OSL win, years of absolute dominance, and still a rock-solid record. Did I mention Jaedong is 8-2 in his last 10 games?
And why are some people confused about the definition of the power rank? There has NEVER NEVER EVER been any questions about what the power rank really is. It has always been about who's the best player right now. Obviously recent results matter more, but how anybody can make any kind of sensible argument that recent results have shown that Zero is a currently a better player than Jaedong is completely ridiculous.
A couple more wins in insignificant games don't get you a free pass to be considered the best zerg. Period. If you debate against this, you are wrong. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has 3 more losses than Zero. It doesn't matter what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero is not the best current zerg. Nothing Zero has done justifies him as the best zerg. No reputable Korean e-sports analyst would consider Zero as the best zerg player right now. He has a lot more to prove. Try winning a Starleague, or at least top 3, then we can talk.
By your own statement, having won a starleage should have no affect on the Power Rank.
On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote: I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player?
NO. See the post two above yours.
The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
I like this PR a lot. I hate Bisu but I have to admit that he's looking more unstoppable than any other player right now. Personally I would change switch JD and Zero just because I feel that JD is the better player even if his results haven't been as great (although I acknowledge that PR is based more on results so I guess that's why I'm not doing it). I would prob put effort lower in the rank and bump up skyhigh and flash, and replace thezerg with calm. In Calm's last 15 games he has only lost 4, including his lost to bisu and 2 ZvZs. If he could only get his ZvZ a little better I think he can be considered better than Zero. His ZvT and ZvP are much better than Zero's already.
and lol man I just realized Bisu is the only protoss in the PR. Man wtf happened to all the protoss players?!
On May 16 2009 00:00 JWD wrote: I want to address your post first because it's a lot nicer than the others in this thread . I'm going to keep it short because I think I've already written nearly everything I'd like to write about Zero vs. Jaedong - check out my comment towards the top of page 4 of this thread for an explanation which I think will address the core of the argument you presented in your post here (seems to be "JD hasn't fallen off nearly enough to be in 4th position this month"). The jist is that, while JD is still a monster and his 5 recent losses do not say much about his odds in all of the bazillion SLs he's still alive in, they're still five losses - that's three more than ZerO who, I should remind you, just 4-0d into the OSL Ro16, is alive in GOM, and a MSL seed (how many people can say they're alive in 3 leagues? Not many...ZerO is one too though ^^).
Are you seriously trying to say that THREE more losses in offseason games is enough to consider Zero the new best player?
NO. See the post two above yours.
The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about the underlying premise for something that you did not write. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
I can't edit the names, I can only add new players with different names and link them back to the same TLPD page, if you get what I'm rambling about. My worry is that the PR will interprit these two sets of players different and screw up the Last/Change fields.
So basically, we need Bob or Zatic or R1CH to rename them to Fantasy, Flash, and TheZerg.
On May 16 2009 03:27 Chill wrote: I can't edit the names, I can only add new players with different names and link them back to the same TLPD page, if you get what I'm rambling about. My worry is that the PR will interprit these two sets of players different and screw up the Last/Change fields.
So basically, we need Bob or Zatic or R1CH to rename them to Fantasy, Flash, and TheZerg.
OK, I follow. Yeah, it really would be nice to clean up how this list looks on the frontpage.
Oh and hear that, Thezerg objectors? You now have another reason to want him off the PR..."Calm" or "by.great" would be much easier on the eyes
Can't find anything else that wasn't what you posited to me already on the Zero vs Jaedong argument. I can't do anything but disagree with it because it just seems so obviously wrong.
You're doing this completely differently from the way Steve usually does and that does feel a bit jarring. Can't change a Power Rank, though, so I guess I'll cope. I believe you're wrong and it looks almost incendiary for incendiary's sake to put Zero over Jaedong (just look at Zero's entry, eee), because I don't think anyone in the world could rightly say anyone but Jaedong is the king of zergs, but that doesn't seem to be close to your criteria. Can't fight City Hall.
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
On May 16 2009 03:33 tfeign wrote: The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
lol, dude, seriously?
I've only been paying attention to teamliquid for about half a year, but I can tell you that the criteria of the PR has always been in question for every single one of those days that I've payed attention to it. I mean, seriously just check like, January and February of this year and July of last year and the comments on them.
This (the TL in general, not this month specifically) power rank clearly falls into the "slightly subjective ranking of good progamers that the ranker feels like writing about" category of power ranks. Sure, this makes it more controversial, but it's ultimately more fun and interesting than something that is point driven like Kespa rankings where there is nothing that needs to be said about the ordering as the numbers speak for themselves.
On May 16 2009 03:29 TwoToneTerran wrote: because I don't think anyone in the world could rightly say anyone but Jaedong is the king of zergs, but that doesn't seem to be close to your criteria. Can't fight City Hall.
No one is saying that and you're absolutely blind to this fact. You are coming off as ignorant and incendiary, and while it's great that you choose to make your arguments without any regard for what the other side says it would still be nice if you'd tone it down a bit and at least pretend to pay attention to what people are laying out.
Power Rankings have nothing to do with who is the "KIND OF ZERG" or any of that pointless crap. Yes, we know JD is the all-around best zerg in the game these days, that's no surprise and it doesn't change from month to month.
What does change is which zerg is playing the most aggressively, displaying the best game sense, doing the most with the current map rotation, elevating his game time after time, and winning the most important games. And if you're arguing that has been JD in the last month or so, you're objectively lying. ZerO is the zerg who is playing the best RIGHT NOW, and this should be apparent to anyone who has been watching games.
Power Rank is not a measure of the best record, or most tournament wins or who is on the best team (thezerg, watch your 10th place rank closely), it is a measure of who is playing the very best in the time leading up to the ranking. Just because most of the games between rankings have been PL doesn't mean the results don't matter - hell, if they didn't, the old PR would still be in effect and we'd only get an update 2-3 times a year.
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
Watch your absolutes. I am not "solely and exclusively using the last month of SC results alone", and I've already covered that several times.
Just saying "the PR was created because people want to know who the best players are" is too simplistic. You need a timeframe - otherwise, every PR would include Boxer, Savior, and iloveoov ("the best players" ever). Because the PR is a monthly affair, the natural thing to do is to set that timeframe to one month. Once again: that's not to say, though, that I think results from previous months should be totally ignored - just substantially downplayed vs. more recent results.
I'm obviously aware that I don't have the reputation of, say, Mani or FS here at TL. This only furthered my desire to slightly change the PR's basis - while Mani or FS might be able to get away with posting the PR as what they think the results of a Bo99999 ladder between every pro SC player would look like (not that they have, this is a hypothetical for argument's sake), I surely wouldn't. Nobody wants to read "some guy"'s opinion of who the scariest progamers are right now, so to make the PR informative and relevant I figured I would need to make its focus a bit more concrete. By stressing recent results I feel like I made the PR worth reading, if only as a refresher on the major trends in individual skill over the past month of SC. Whether you disagree with my rank, I think you have to concede that it would have been a hell of a lot less useful if I wrote it with less focus on recent results and more on my abstract sense of "who is better" at SC right now.
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
This is actually the best post in the entire thread. I think Plexa should try making the PR next time so that it'd actually make sense.
someone with a zvt ratio of 43% wins shouldnt be so high. and its not like it has recently gotten way better, he got his ass kicked by Leta, he won the 2games before that, but those were on battle royal and gods garden..the last zvt before that was against oov in february and he lost that one.
hes just extremeley lucky he didnt run into any terran yet in any league
On May 16 2009 03:44 tedster wrote: ZerO is the zerg who is playing the best RIGHT NOW, and this should be apparent to anyone who has been watching games.
no he's not. I`m not goin` into any more details coz it's useless
On May 16 2009 04:50 JohnBall wrote: Worst power rank ever! Maybe we should just leave Bisu on spot number 1 as default since he doesn't have to do anything to be there.
why? i thought this was a decent PR.
There's really no OSL or MSL performances to go by as its still in its early stages where there's still a lot of players that are being weeded out. it should be based on proleague, and bisu has been doing pretty good there.
i was a bit surprised with fantasy though and zero over jaedong
On May 16 2009 04:50 JohnBall wrote: Worst power rank ever! Maybe we should just leave Bisu on spot number 1 as default since he doesn't have to do anything to be there.
lol HUGE Oz troll
On May 16 2009 04:58 Crunchums wrote: I haven't read this thread and I'm sure infinity people have already said this, but: Zero over Jaedong???
Kentor you should also read something. E.g. last ten fantasys and JDs games. Tho we all know that FakeS is a gr8 fantasy fan. I can accept that anyway, but ZerO over JD is funnier than KESPA. Obviously that doesn't count but every player is an underdog vs JD in a bo5 series, no metter if it's ZerO, Fantasy or Bisu. Lets be honest. The real Power rank is: 1. Bisu / Jaedong Long Long nothing Fantasy Long nothing ZerO
And again:
On May 15 2009 13:14 Plexa wrote: Everyone around here knows that I am probably the largest anti-fan of Hwaesung on the planet, and probably top 10 anti-jaedong. But even I cannot understand how Jaedong slips from #1 to #4 in the space of a month. What exactly has Jaedong done to slip this far? Well he lost a game to Ganzi, Movie, fantasy and Hyvaa while destroying everyone else in existence. Indeed, he destroyed Ganzi in their next encounter, and finished movie off in the next two game.
Jaedong's play as of this exact moment is as sharp as ever and I would expect him to defeat Fantasy and Zero (and probably bisu) on any given day of the week based off their current skills. Bisu hasn't done anything too fantastic to claim #1, just won his proleague games bashing a bunch of average gamers (bar leta and zero) in games that weren't exactly spectacular. Fantasy has done nothing really to claim #2 - losing to Calm and Hogil and beating a bunch of scrubs (and Jaedong).
And as much as I love Zero, in no way is he deserving of being called #3 at this point - he's probably top 5, but top 3 is a bit too much. Imo
1) Jaedong 2) Bisu 3) Fantasy 4) Zero
Just think FakeStivie. Are you sure you would bet on Fantasy playing vs Jae? I will take the bet if you want.
I finally got an account on this site, if only to say that Jaedong doesn't deserve the drop, he's lost the odd game, sure, but he hasn't and won't get eliminated from anything at this stage. After the Titanic/Terrific/Terrible Three at the top, I love the play of the next four Zero/Effort/Skyhigh/Leta. Not sure any of these guys will ever reach #1, but they'll be around for sometime.
On the other hand, seeing as how the tenth spot is a bit of a give-away, Baby should've gone there. He beat Jangbi and Modesty in impressive fashion (Game 2 hinged on one miscue, he was brilliant up until he lost his initial push) and got to the finals of his offline qualifier before losing 2-1 to Effort (no shame in that). His raw talent (fending off Jangbi's game 3 zealot harrass, better-than-leta wraith micro), his incredible knack for doing the exact right thing (ninja CC v. Jangbi, speedy Rax v. Modesty) and his sheer entertainment value should've given him #10. I see Baby could go two ways: this could be the best he ever gets, or this could be the start of a brilliant career. Hope to see him higher up next month.
I wouldnt put Zero on third just yet, probably jaedong 3 leta 4 zero 5 but its a hard call, and i wouldnt put effort on six, probably 6 skyhigh, flash 7, effort 8 calm 9, removing kespa
not sure why calm is not on PR, he is really playing great..
i haven't seen all of thezerg's games (none from this last week), but i don't think he deserves #10. sure, he's gotten results, but that's not what's important in the PR. at least not as much as how they played. and honestly, thezerg hasn't looked that great (osl games especially). i think great deserves the spot instead. he's played really well, and against tough opponents. i definitely don't agree that zero's zvz is close to jaedong's, but he may very well have taken over lux's spot at #2 (good lord lux is playing terribly). besides that, it's a good writeup. i'm glad there was some flair and bias. no offense, but FS isn't exactly neutral on everything either. the point of the PR isn't necessarily to be 100% right, but to create some discussion.
p.s. thanks for stepping up. will you be doing the PR regularly?
edit: i know he hasn't had the best performances, but i liked pure's play this month. hopefully he can at least get a CNBC next time
On May 15 2009 14:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: If you decided to revolutionize how the power rank works, I think that you also expected resistance from the masses. Imo, it would've been a better move to apply a less radical philosophy to some lesser known players so your intent isn't lost in a wave of fury.
Honestly I don't think this PR or the thought behind it is very revolutionary at all. Power Ranking has always been about striking some balance between who we consider to be the "best" players in hypothetical Best-of-99999 series and who we think has played the best over the past month. Previous PR writers have merely put more stress on the former than I do.
This power rank has a complete lack of the benefit of the doubt. Other power ranks stress the name factor which is completely irrevelant in this one. Also, this one says (and shows) that it takes into account only the last month's games, while other power ranks are about the best (not best performing) player at the time the power rank is released. Consider when Hwasin was tearing it up at the beginning of the starleagues, effortly beating players such as Flash, Jaedong, and BeSt. I recall he got a spot like low 7s. He certainly performed better, but people knew from precedent that he was not actually the better player at that time. This power rank is revolutionary, perhaps too much. A good example is Mani's power rank, which heavily emphasizes the name factor or the fact that Bisu and Savior remained on top even after their drubbing in the finals. You're the first one to completely discard every factor except gameplayplayer's stats.
On May 15 2009 14:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hey JWD, how close was ZerO and Fantasy to switching spots on this PR? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
The top 5 players in this rank are all absurdly close, so I'm not going to speak in absolute terms here. But ZerO was further behind Fantasy than Jaedong was behind ZerO, by some margin. The main reason for this is (and this is something which separates Fantasy from JD as well) that I see Fantasy as not only an S-class playerwho is in top form in every way, but also the game's biggest threat as a tactical innovator (possibly with the help of oov and boxer at every turn). We see this come out in his games every month, and last was no exception: hidden expo on Outsider vs. Anytime, for example. Fantasy's ability to come up with and execute unique and successful builds just puts him a cut above ZerO and JD at the moment I think, but Bisu had the far more convincing performance over the past month.
rofl are you serious? you "see" fantasy as an s-class player losing to players he shouldnt if he is s-class (hogil/calm). but some kind of tactical innovator? (oh no, hidden expo, we have NEVER seen that before in sc scene)
hell, most of your results is just based on a players stats for the month, nothing else. otherwise, there is no way fantasy would be above zero (im not gonna even go into jaedong, we all know how simply retarded it was that he is below fantasy and zero) zero has won more! shouldn't he be above fantasy by your standards?
thezerg above calm? i dont get your rationale. thezerg got knocked out of the osl and gets rewarded a rank in the top 10. i guess now proleague > msl > osl
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
Watch your absolutes. I am not "solely and exclusively using the last month of SC results alone", and I've already covered that several times.
Just saying "the PR was created because people want to know who the best players are" is too simplistic. You need a timeframe - otherwise, every PR would include Boxer, Savior, and iloveoov ("the best players" ever). Because the PR is a monthly affair, the natural thing to do is to set that timeframe to one month. Once again: that's not to say, though, that I think results from previous months should be totally ignored - just substantially downplayed vs. more recent results.
I'm obviously aware that I don't have the reputation of, say, Mani or FS here at TL. This only furthered my desire to slightly change the PR's basis - while Mani or FS might be able to get away with posting the PR as what they think the results of a Bo99999 ladder between every pro SC player would look like (not that they have, this is a hypothetical for argument's sake), I surely wouldn't. Nobody wants to read "some guy"'s opinion of who the scariest progamers are right now, so to make the PR informative and relevant I figured I would need to make its focus a bit more concrete. By stressing recent results I feel like I made the PR worth reading, if only as a refresher on the major trends in individual skill over the past month of SC. Whether you disagree with my rank, I think you have to concede that it would have been a hell of a lot less useful if I wrote it with less focus on recent results and more on my abstract sense of "who is better" at SC right now.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
A couple of unimportant games against lower caliber players does not in any way, shape, or form justify him as the best current zerg. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has a couple more losses than Zero, or what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero can never be labeled as the best current zerg until he can prove himself far in a Starleague.
The only way you can somehow make an argument of Zero>Jaedong is if you somehow only solely and exclusively just take into account the last month of results, completely ignoring what kind of games they are, regardless whether they're merely qualifiers or the final of a Starleague, and completely ignore everything beyond the last month. Hell, one can even make a point if in the last month Zero won a Starleague title, or defeated top-ranked Kespa or ELO players in a bo5 of an important league. Zero did none of that. He's accomplished nothing. Nada. Zero. No pun intended. You need to understand that to solidify yourself as the best, it takes a lot more than just a couple of extra wins in games that aren't even important to begin with.
Not only is it that you overconsider the value of recent results, you also overconsider the value of the importance of the games played. A PR that places a big emphasis on just the last month's worth results usually only happens when the last month's of results included the conclusion of a Starleague or two. None of that happened, nothing even close to that happened. You need to understand that a player who loses say, 10 games, but at the same wins a Starleague title, would be considered better than a player who won 10 unimportant games but hasn't gotten anywhere far in the league. Zero has not proven anything in the leagues and until he can start putting up solid results in a Starleague against its stiff competition, labeling him as the best current zerg, on top of an S-class player who's proven himself for years, just won an OSL title, and is still putting up rock-solid results (80% win in his last 10 games), is incomprehensible and inconceivable.
On May 16 2009 07:21 piratebay wrote: hell, most of your results is just based on a players stats for the month, nothing else. otherwise, there is no way fantasy would be above zero (im not gonna even go into jaedong, we all know how simply retarded it was that he is below fantasy and zero) zero has won more! shouldn't he be above fantasy by your standards?
Do you realize how self-contradictory this paragraph is? Come on man, you can do better. I can't make much sense of your arguments, so I'll delay responding to them to give you a chance to clean them up a bit.
rofl are you serious? you "see" fantasy as an s-class player losing to players he shouldnt if he is s-class (hogil/calm). but some kind of tactical innovator? (oh no, hidden expo, we have NEVER seen that before in sc scene)
Knowing when and where to place those made OoV a tactical innovator. Also, every S- class player drops games to lesser players (Jaedong v Ganzi, Bisu v Great?), and Fantasy, unlike some other ex-S-class players, has only dropped 2.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
By your logic, Jangbi, Luxury, and Stork still deserve a spot then don't they? PR's wouldn't show changes for years if this indeed was the case.
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
Watch your absolutes. I am not "solely and exclusively using the last month of SC results alone", and I've already covered that several times.
Just saying "the PR was created because people want to know who the best players are" is too simplistic. You need a timeframe - otherwise, every PR would include Boxer, Savior, and iloveoov ("the best players" ever). Because the PR is a monthly affair, the natural thing to do is to set that timeframe to one month. Once again: that's not to say, though, that I think results from previous months should be totally ignored - just substantially downplayed vs. more recent results.
I'm obviously aware that I don't have the reputation of, say, Mani or FS here at TL. This only furthered my desire to slightly change the PR's basis - while Mani or FS might be able to get away with posting the PR as what they think the results of a Bo99999 ladder between every pro SC player would look like (not that they have, this is a hypothetical for argument's sake), I surely wouldn't. Nobody wants to read "some guy"'s opinion of who the scariest progamers are right now, so to make the PR informative and relevant I figured I would need to make its focus a bit more concrete. By stressing recent results I feel like I made the PR worth reading, if only as a refresher on the major trends in individual skill over the past month of SC. Whether you disagree with my rank, I think you have to concede that it would have been a hell of a lot less useful if I wrote it with less focus on recent results and more on my abstract sense of "who is better" at SC right now.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
A couple of unimportant games against lower caliber players does not in any way, shape, or form justify him as the best current zerg. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has a couple more losses than Zero, or what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero can never be labeled as the best current zerg until he can prove himself far in a Starleague.
The only way you can somehow make an argument of Zero>Jaedong is if you somehow only solely and exclusively just take into account the last month of results, completely ignoring what kind of games they are, regardless whether they're merely qualifiers or the final of a Starleague, and completely ignore everything beyond the last month. Hell, one can even make a point if in the last month Zero won a Starleague title, or defeated top-ranked Kespa or ELO players in a bo5 of an important league. Zero did none of that. He's accomplished nothing. Nada. Zero. No pun intended. You need to understand that to solidify yourself as the best, it takes a lot more than just a couple of extra wins in games that aren't even important to begin with.
Not only is it that you overconsider the value of recent results, you also overconsider the value of the importance of the games played. A PR that places a big emphasis on just the last month's worth results usually only happens when the last month's of results included the conclusion of a Starleague or two. None of that happened, nothing even close to that happened. You need to understand that a player who loses say, 10 games, but at the same wins a Starleague title, would be considered better than a player who won 10 unimportant games but hasn't gotten anywhere far in the league. Zero has not proven anything in the leagues and until he can start putting up solid results in a Starleague against its stiff competition, labeling him as the best current zerg, on top of an S-class player who's proven himself for years, just won an OSL title, and is still putting up rock-solid results (80% win in his last 10 games), is incomprehensible and inconceivable.
tfeign, I'm not really sure what else I can say to you. I've already tried several times to get across the basis for my PR but you keep insisting it's "entirely stats-based" and an attempt at ranking "the best players". If you're just going to refuse to accept the basis for my ranking, there's no possible way for me to debate it with you.
If you think the PR should be written as something other than how I wrote it (a ranking of "the last month's most powerful SC players"), that's fine. Point taken. But please stop trying to insist that there is only one valid basis for a PR, or that nobody has ever challenged that basis, or that that basis means my rank is incorrect. None of those points is valid.
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player.
The Power Rankings are a listing of the strongest players in the game right now. What that means, is that they're a hybrid of sorts, obviously a premium is placed on recent results (which is why Luxury's impressive pedigree gets him nowhere this month) because these show the player's current abilities and mentality. But with some players (see: Bisu in last month's rankings) we simply know that one loss or two losses here or there is to be expected but not representative of some major decline. These players have established themselves to be top-flight players and are entitled to hiccups.
Power rankings by this definition are also a rough prediction (based on recent results and history) on how they'll do next month. But obviously that's never perfect.
I think all of the people saying JD should be above ZerO have a point. Boxing has a great rule, the challenger has to convincingly beat the champion in order for the challenger to win a decision fight. In other words, in a close fight, the champ retains the belt. I think that has to be added to the appendix of the new power ranking philosophy.
(Just my 2 cents: Besides, JD is a scarier player and that puts him over the edge, because its a strength that ZerO cannot yet claim.)
That was a good read. Of course, I don't agree with it 100% but I seldom ever do so it's cool it's cool. I'm just waiting for the day an ACE player takes the board. Personally, I'm hoping for either Reach or Anytime, but any will do.
Nice PR! I especially like KeSPA being ranked, although he/she/it should probably be ranked a bit higher. We'll see in the next match if it can keep it's impressive streak alive! =)
Wow... just as reference, I generally keep an eye out for JWD's posts and usually I'm up in arms about it. Nothing personal, I just feel like every player you like (think is the next big thing, terrans, Skt1 players...), I irrationally dispise. That said, after reading the thread comments and your reasoning... I'm sadly in agreement with your rank (well minus Thezerg; I like violet). Excellent job, very thoughtful and well writen and I look forward to more power ranks from you.
On May 16 2009 10:34 n.DieJokes wrote: Wow... just as reference, I generally keep an eye out for JWD's posts and usually I'm up in arms about it. Nothing personal, I just feel like every player you like (think is the next big thing, terrans, Skt1 players...), I irrationally dispise. That said, after reading the thread comments and your reasoning... I'm sadly in agreement with your rank (well minus Thezerg; I like violet). Excellent job, very thoughtful and well writen and I look forward to more power ranks from you.
On May 16 2009 10:51 Yiruru wrote: I'm wondering why you say this PR is based off "last month's powerful gamers" and then you include games from May
Oh, this is just a semantic problem - by "the last month" or (I guess I may have shortened it to) "last month"'s gamers I really mean the last month of SC play, or the time between last PR (mid-April) and now. That includes games from both April and May.
I mention stats because they're interesting...but in both my OP and the comments here I've used plenty of other methods to justify my ranking. And if by "stats" you mean "whether a player is winning or losing" then yeah, I think stats are pretty important to a PR. Don't you?
This thread is one of the better reads I've had in recent memory.
I hate to contribute nothing of my own, but really. This is entertaining!
Just please keep it civil. JWD has been cool headed and more than happy to answer any questions or comments in a calm and collected manner. If you have an argument to make, don't be rude and don't be aggressive and for the love of god don't resort to the "you're wrong because I say so" attitude, it just hurts your cause.
Still, it seems most of the qualms people have are really based on a difference of perception as to what the definition of "Power Rank" actually is...
Just for kicks I decided to compile a short list of the win delta (wins - losses) of the top players (counting games from the current round of ProLeague, MSL, OSL and GOM). This doesn't take into account how good the players were that they faced, so obviously it isn't going to tell the whole picture but I think it's interesting nonetheless: +9 ZerO +8 Bisu +7 EffOrt, Calm +5 fantasy, Jaedong, sKyHigh, Flash, Kwanro +4 Leta, Thezerg, HoGiL, Iris
Of course a Power Rank should always take into account more than just raw (and potentially misleading) statistics, so I am by no means advocating using this as the ranking. I just thought that it might be interesting.
On May 16 2009 12:15 JWD wrote: Thanks Goragoth, interesting information. Also a pretty obvious hint as to why ZerO is where he is in the rank.
Relative to Jaedong, 4 of ZerO's wins are in situations where Jaedong didn't have to play because he won the previous OSL. ZerO's record is inflated by 4-0ing his OSL group, so if that's a metric used, he's going to be ahead of players who pre-qualified for OSL. ZerO really doesn't feel like he played strong enough to catapult past Jaedong, particuarly with the fact that he continued into MSL.
I think your problem, JWD, is that you aren't being honest to any sort of ranking system.
Your argument for ZerO being ahead of Jaedong is nothing more than pure statistics in the past month. Yet by any pure statistics reckoning over the last month, ZerO also had a better month than Fantasy. Clearly pure statistics is not the driving factor behind this Power Rank (and thankfully not too).
Of course a subjective assessment of player skill is certainly an allowed and encouraged component of a good Power Ranking. But you're running into a huge brick wall attempting to justify ZerO as a better player than Jaedong. Wins and losses aside, Jaedong is a beastly competitor who lifted himself effortlessly out of a minislump to stay alive in all leagues and contribute enough to his team's proleague performance to keep them #1. He'd be favored in any BoX against any player on the planet (though against Bisu or Fantasy that may be only marginally favored). There are a half dozen players I would take over ZerO in a heart beat. Obviously head to head, ZerO would stand a snowball's chance in hell.
Historically, there has been also some stickiness in the Power Ranking. Certainly it isn't like the KeSPA ranking that allows a player to slump hard for three months before they even move, but to get into the top three should be a real feat. Jaedong, as stated above, is not exactly slumping.
Zero had an admirable month, but to see him vault from off the rank (acknowledged in last month's CBNC as a terrible, terrible player) to over Jaedong is ridiculous.
The only argument that I see is that he did better in Proleague.
Plus for Jaedong: Favored against Zero in BoX. Favored against any player at any time, pretty much Coming off dominant month.
Neutral: Alive in all three leagues
Plus for Zero: Better proleague performance.
If you have any other pluses for ZerO, I'd love to see them.
I dunno. Jaedong drops a couple of games and everybody panics. It's a sign of how good he is that such a powerful month is seen as subpar for him. It's just a disappointment because it seems like last month's stats are such a power reason to place Zero over Jaedong. The only plus side is i can be pretty much certain that in the long run, Jaedong is going to have Starleague wins and many #1 months ahead of him, whereas ZerO is a historically extremely shaky player. Enjoy your #3, Zero, you haven't earned it.
wow honestly Steve just to understand what power rank is the 10 most promising players of last month ?? the 10 most fearsome players of the last month ??? i still dont get it cause the new ranking are not so logical putting zero above jaedong is so so so wrong in so many aspects in what way do u suggest zero is better than him ?? i think there should be some consistency to the "power rank" notice how older ranking hardly change and if they do than not by much now it seems pointless to write the +2 or - 4 cause each ranking there's new faces it reminds me of a child trying to judge whats more tasty chocolate or vanilla i'm sorry to say but the more u look at it the more power ranking has lost it effect on my judgement sorry steve!!
ps not saying i would do a better job god forbid just its impossible to have so many changes on who's #1 in 1 month hoping for some better ranking next monthand hoping its not too late maybe by explaining what pr really means i may have the courage to trust upon it again!!
On May 16 2009 12:15 JWD wrote: Thanks Goragoth, interesting information. Also a pretty obvious hint as to why ZerO is where he is in the rank.
Relative to Jaedong, 4 of ZerO's wins are in situations where Jaedong didn't have to play because he won the previous OSL. ZerO's record is inflated by 4-0ing his OSL group, so if that's a metric used, he's going to be ahead of players who pre-qualified for OSL. ZerO really doesn't feel like he played strong enough to catapult past Jaedong, particuarly with the fact that he continued into MSL.
Good thing Jaedong already qualified for the OSL or else he might have gotten knocked out. It's hard to say, but Zero 4-0'ing his group is no mean feat and does speak volumes about his current strength right now.
I have read the entire thread [every single one of the posts] and just have one question.
If Jaedong and Zero played ZvZ at the time that this PR was written [Best out of 5] who do you think would win?
Jaedong, 3>2. But I should add I think this matchup is almost impossible to call right now. If it happens in OSL or MSL, I'll be on the very edge of my seat.
A major advantage for JD over ZerO in series play is his mental toughness.
On May 16 2009 12:15 JWD wrote: Thanks Goragoth, interesting information. Also a pretty obvious hint as to why ZerO is where he is in the rank.
Relative to Jaedong, 4 of ZerO's wins are in situations where Jaedong didn't have to play because he won the previous OSL. ZerO's record is inflated by 4-0ing his OSL group, so if that's a metric used, he's going to be ahead of players who pre-qualified for OSL. ZerO really doesn't feel like he played strong enough to catapult past Jaedong, particuarly with the fact that he continued into MSL.
Good thing Jaedong already qualified for the OSL or else he might have gotten knocked out. It's hard to say, but Zero 4-0'ing his group is no mean feat and does speak volumes about his current strength right now.
That's a pretty bad double standard. If you qualify for a league, you've earned it. No one's doubting Bisu's position in the OSL and it would be equally ridiculous to doubt Jaedong's.
I have read the entire thread [every single one of the posts] and just have one question.
If Jaedong and Zero played ZvZ at the time that this PR was written [Best out of 5] who do you think would win?
Jaedong, 3>2. But I should add I think this matchup is almost impossible to call right now. If it happens in OSL or MSL, I'll be on the very edge of my seat.
Okay thank you for taking your time to answer my question
Although I might not agree with your Power ranking completely, your reasons for justifying your placement are valid enough. Keep up the good work!
On May 16 2009 12:33 barbahaba0 wrote: wow honestly JWD just to understand what power rank is the 10 most promising players of last month ?? the 10 most fearsome players of the last month ??? i still dont get it cause the new ranking are not so logical putting zero above jaedong is so so so wrong in so many aspects in what way do u suggest zero is better than him ?? i think there should be some consistency to the "power rank" notice how older ranking hardly change and if they do than not by much now it seems pointless to write the +2 or - 4 cause each ranking there's new faces it reminds me of a child trying to judge whats more tasty chocolate or vanilla i'm sorry to say but the more u look at it the more power ranking has lost it effect on my judgement sorry JWD!!
ps not saying i would do a better job god forbid just its impossible to have so many changes on who's #1 in 1 month hoping for some better ranking next monthand hoping its not too late maybe by explaining what pr really means i may have the courage to trust upon it again!!
I have read the entire thread [every single one of the posts] and just have one question.
If Jaedong and Zero played ZvZ at the time that this PR was written [Best out of 5] who do you think would win?
Jaedong, 3>2. But I should add I think this matchup is almost impossible to call right now. If it happens in OSL or MSL, I'll be on the very edge of my seat.
A major advantage for JD over ZerO in series play is his mental toughness.
Huh? Zero got 3-0ed by Lux..... Jaedong would have a much easier time. Even if that was before, I don't see a zerg that can be called a favorite over Jaedong in a bo5 ZvZ. I don't think 2-3 against him is possible either.
On May 16 2009 14:19 Avidkeystamper wrote: Zero is too inconsistent to stand a chance in a Bo5. But I wouldn't automatically call a JD victory if they met in the proleague.
yes, you first have to check if the map is imba in ZvZ or not...
Nice write up, I don't agree with Jaedong's position, but the rest of it looks ok. Manifesto had the best reasoning/definition behind the power rank, and I believe Jaedong is still one scary fucker.
On May 16 2009 03:18 tfeign wrote: The power rank is NOT about who has the best last month in Starcraft. If that's what you solely use to determine players in the power rank, then you are wrong again.
It's almost comical that you're willing to speak in such absolute terms about something which is clearly subjective and you have absolutely no control over. Here's a proposition: I wrote this Power Rank, and that gives me the right do determine what it is based on (within reason).
You've come into this thread, claimed the Power Rank is based on criteria which differ from the criteria which I had in mind when I wrote it, and then criticized my ranking based on your claimed criteria. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
Here's an exaggerated example to help: I decide to rank gamers according to the sexiness of their haircuts. You come along and tell me that my PR is garbage because gamers should be ranked according to the sexiness of their wardrobes, and then proceed to criticize my ranking based on the fact that the 4th-ranked player has a sexier wardrobe than the 3rd-ranked player.
The criteria of the PR has never been in question. I'm telling you that solely and exclusively using the last month of Starcraft results alone to determine players in the power rank is not how it should be. It has never been what the PR is, and it will never be accepted by readers.
People want to know the who are the best players, that's why the PR was created, and the only reason why the PR was created. The PR was not made to list who has the best stats in the last month of Starcraft.
Watch your absolutes. I am not "solely and exclusively using the last month of SC results alone", and I've already covered that several times.
Just saying "the PR was created because people want to know who the best players are" is too simplistic. You need a timeframe - otherwise, every PR would include Boxer, Savior, and iloveoov ("the best players" ever). Because the PR is a monthly affair, the natural thing to do is to set that timeframe to one month. Once again: that's not to say, though, that I think results from previous months should be totally ignored - just substantially downplayed vs. more recent results.
I'm obviously aware that I don't have the reputation of, say, Mani or FS here at TL. This only furthered my desire to slightly change the PR's basis - while Mani or FS might be able to get away with posting the PR as what they think the results of a Bo99999 ladder between every pro SC player would look like (not that they have, this is a hypothetical for argument's sake), I surely wouldn't. Nobody wants to read "some guy"'s opinion of who the scariest progamers are right now, so to make the PR informative and relevant I figured I would need to make its focus a bit more concrete. By stressing recent results I feel like I made the PR worth reading, if only as a refresher on the major trends in individual skill over the past month of SC. Whether you disagree with my rank, I think you have to concede that it would have been a hell of a lot less useful if I wrote it with less focus on recent results and more on my abstract sense of "who is better" at SC right now.
Yes, the PR was created solely for the purpose of listing who are the best players. It has never been just about who's got the best stats in the last month. It was created to list out the best players, based subjectively on many different factors -- the last month's result, though is important, is only one of such factors. There is indeed a timeframe as we all know it. Of course no one in their right mind would put Boxer or oov in the top PR, but at the same time no one in their right mind should put Zero over Jaedong either.
A couple of unimportant games against lower caliber players does not in any way, shape, or form justify him as the best current zerg. It doesn't matter that Jaedong has a couple more losses than Zero, or what kind of leagues Zero is alive in. Zero can never be labeled as the best current zerg until he can prove himself far in a Starleague.
The only way you can somehow make an argument of Zero>Jaedong is if you somehow only solely and exclusively just take into account the last month of results, completely ignoring what kind of games they are, regardless whether they're merely qualifiers or the final of a Starleague, and completely ignore everything beyond the last month. Hell, one can even make a point if in the last month Zero won a Starleague title, or defeated top-ranked Kespa or ELO players in a bo5 of an important league. Zero did none of that. He's accomplished nothing. Nada. Zero. No pun intended. You need to understand that to solidify yourself as the best, it takes a lot more than just a couple of extra wins in games that aren't even important to begin with.
Not only is it that you overconsider the value of recent results, you also overconsider the value of the importance of the games played. A PR that places a big emphasis on just the last month's worth results usually only happens when the last month's of results included the conclusion of a Starleague or two. None of that happened, nothing even close to that happened. You need to understand that a player who loses say, 10 games, but at the same wins a Starleague title, would be considered better than a player who won 10 unimportant games but hasn't gotten anywhere far in the league. Zero has not proven anything in the leagues and until he can start putting up solid results in a Starleague against its stiff competition, labeling him as the best current zerg, on top of an S-class player who's proven himself for years, just won an OSL title, and is still putting up rock-solid results (80% win in his last 10 games), is incomprehensible and inconceivable.
tfeign, I'm not really sure what else I can say to you. I've already tried several times to get across the basis for my PR but you keep insisting it's "entirely stats-based" and an attempt at ranking "the best players". If you're just going to refuse to accept the basis for my ranking, there's no possible way for me to debate it with you.
If you think the PR should be written as something other than how I wrote it (a ranking of "the last month's most powerful SC players"), that's fine. Point taken. But please stop trying to insist that there is only one valid basis for a PR, or that nobody has ever challenged that basis, or that that basis means my rank is incorrect. None of those points is valid.
Power Ranks have been around in just about every sport. Your definition of a Power Rank being "who has the best stats in the last month" is not what a PR really is. It's not what a PR means, and there is no disputable definition as to what a PR is: a ranking of the best current players, not a ranking of who performed best in just the last month and only the last month.
Of course the last month's of performance are often the most important, but they're never the only factors to determining the players on the PR. Yes, there are times when the last month's worth of results go toward to determine a major if not all of the rankings on the PR, but those times are really only reserved to when the last month contained the conclusion of a Starleague or two.
On May 16 2009 17:36 tfeign wrote: Power Ranks have been around in just about every sport. Your definition of a Power Rank being "who has the best stats in the last month" is not what a PR really is. It's not what a PR means, and there is no disputable definition as to what a PR is: a ranking of the best current players, not a ranking of who performed best in just the last month and only the last month.
Yes, there are times when the last month's worth of results go toward to determine a major if not all of the rankings on the PR, but those times are really only reserved to when the last month contained the conclusion of a Starleague or two.
You're absolutely right when you say that a Power Rank is a "ranking of the best current players". But what does that mean? Clearly, you have to combine some combination of recent results, reputation, guesstimates of continuing results, and all-time performance. All-time performance isn't enough, or any top ten would change really slowly. Recent results isn't enough, or you automatically have to drop anybody who hits a slump, even if you're 99% sure it's temporary. Reputation is double-edged at best: it can put an underperformer in or keep a relatively quiet player out (Calm, great). And guessing at future performance? Luxury, we're looking at you.
Even statistically, there are tons of ways to rank players: most wins, most games, best winning percentage, etc. When you try to include anything subjective in a power rank (and the power rank isn't defined by a set of statistics, or we wouldn't need people to do it every month and it would always be on time), how things are viewed is - surprise! - subjective. Of course the PR guy tries to be objective, but we all value different things slightly more or less and that influences how the rank ends up. It's objective according to his standards, but the standards aren't set in stone.
In short, any time you have a combination of things, how different people combine them is going to vary - wildly. But how do you judge a Power Rank's accuracy? You seem to be looking for a list of predictions (that is, emphasizing the expected future performance aspect): and yes, we expect Jaedong to do a bit better than Zero in the months to come. But that's not how JWD wrote it. This is more of a way-things-are-now rank (that is, focusing more on the recent results). It may not be how you would do it, but why is it invalid?
On May 16 2009 20:29 DoX.) wrote: Monthly power rank should be about the month's best players imo. Oh well...
I wish the power rank was less of a knee-jerk reaction and more about actually who is the best. Luxury was laughable at no.2 last month, now he's not even in the top10.
JD could lose one game against Zero, but that's all. 3-0 or 3-1 in favor of JD is the most likely result in a bo5. also:
On May 16 2009 12:15 JWD wrote: Thanks Goragoth, interesting information. Also a pretty obvious hint as to why ZerO is where he is in the rank.
then why isn`t calm on the PR? ur arguments fail JWD, sorry to say this, but u give examples that apply just for some specific players, not all of them. So what's the criteria? -most fearsome player...no -best PL performance...no -best SLs performances...no -top 10 overall in the last month...no -top 10 in a boX...no ...so what is this PR based on?
Jaeden, have you considered that the PR might be based on a combination of some of the factors that you've listed, not necessarily on any one single factor (and sidenote, would you even want to read a PR based on one single such narrow factor?!).
UR argmnts fail.
And as for your last question...read my comments in this thread, I promise the answer is not hard to find. Hint: you might want to start with the post directly above yours, but I've given a bit more precise definitions elsewhere.
On May 16 2009 20:29 DoX.) wrote: Monthly power rank should be about the month's best players imo. Oh well...
This is really what my PR is about...The month's best players.
So we might as well just check TLPD for the recent best performing players per month and toss them on a top 10, with obvious exclusions to amusing things like Kespa? It seems almost arbitrary depending on a player's workload, like if in Offseason a really good player is seeded in both tourneys and doesn't have to play any qualifiers.
It's like, say Flash goes on a 14 win streak and tops the chart of a Power Rank for obviously performing the best for a month, but between that PR and the next he only ends up playing maybe 5 games (say 2 proleague games and a Bo3) and loses 1 of the proleague games and one of the Bo3 games and ends up with a 3-2 record. He still has a positive record in PL, still advanced in the tourney, but should he drop significantly for that 3-2 when he JUST came off a huge streak?
I really think it's misleading to make something as definitive sound as a Power Rank off purely "the" month's performance.
On May 16 2009 20:29 DoX.) wrote: Monthly power rank should be about the month's best players imo. Oh well...
This is really what my PR is about...The month's best players.
So we might as well just check TLPD for the recent best performing players per month and toss them on a top 10, with obvious exclusions to amusing things like Kespa?
Do you really think "checking TLPD" can tell you who the "best performing players" are over the past month?
Yep. Bisu's only dropped one game and has the best record, #1. Zero and Fantasy have a better record this month than Jaedong, so he obviously drops below both, etc etc. Leta's record is very similar to Jaedong (someone posted a list earlier where they were on the same level), so he goes right beneath...Going by your version of the PR though. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think that sounds simplistic.
Sorry for editing in the hypothetical after you responded.
On May 17 2009 00:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yep. Bisu's only dropped one game and has the best record, #1. Zero and Fantasy have a better record this month than Jaedong, so he obviously drops below both, etc etc. Leta's record is very similar to Jaedong (someone posted a list earlier where they were on the same level), so he goes right beneath...Going by your version of the PR though. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think that sounds simplistic.
I agree, it's over-the-top simplistic...writing the PR according to records in TLPD would make for a fucking awful PR that requires no explanation and is not interesting to read or nearly as useful for picking up on the last month's big names. That's why I didn't write this PR that way. Isn't this fact obvious from every post I've made here, from the OP right up to now??
And how can you possibly look at this list and go on to insinuate my rank is based exclusively on it?
I didn't say exclusively (I was being overly simplistic of what you said, ironically, but that was just an example of how it's pretty easy to make your rank sync up with raw data), but if the PR is "only" about whatever happens in one month (instead of just having an obvious preference for the most recent month) and be even more based on records then it seems to undermine players who A)Have a smaller workload for any given month (see my hypothetical) B)Hit a weak series of games only to come back in top dominating form, obviously showing they're the best of the best even with a hiccup and C)Had just shown they're still on top of the game previously, even if one month's results aren't their absolute best.
It also lends to give too much credit to players who have one stellar month in light of a bad history. It lends no buffer for a good player to continue the prove themselves, and instead just up and take a top spot, regardless of what we know of the player.
why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote: why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote: why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
Actually, Nada, Savior, and Anytime/Pusan/Nal_Ra would always be on top.
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote: why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I don't think most people here want a static power rank.
When a dominant player is starting to play bad for more than just a small ammount of games its justified to punnish them for it. For example Stork and JangBi aren't even on the PR this time and I don't see anyone complain about this.
When players have been dominant for a vast period of time it doesnt matter if he drops 3-4 games during a small period of time, specially if he gets his shit together right after and starts winning again. They deserve the benefit of a doubt more than newer players who still has alot to prove.
The way Bisu and Jaedong has been playing lately, for several months, has given them the right to be positioned on the very top of the PR unless they start playing worse consistantly or if some new player is showing brilliant play consistantly.
For ZerO, who wasn't even ranked in the last months PR, to climb over the arguably best player in the world, would need him to show extraordinay play in important games vs players of high calibre or that Jaedong starts playing worse consistantly. This month haven't included such games and Jaedong hasn't shown considerably worse play than when he was dominant, and thats why people react.
All I'm trying to say is that you should be so hasty in lowering the very top players based on just a few games, or you wouldn't get an accurate list of who's actually the best players right now.
If you asked me the question, who is the best zerg right now I would answer Jaedong. However JWD has stated how and why he ranked the players the way he did and his PR is based abit differenly from the past PRs as far as I can tell.
On May 17 2009 03:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: JWD clarified that he felt that ZerO performed better last month but that Jaedong was still the better zerg player.
I was pretty sure he wrote somewhere that ZerO is the best zerg atm...hmmm anyway if that's the case it's fine...kinda
Jaedong HIMSELF said he had a slump recently. Seems to be reason enough to drop a place just for this month i don't know why people are arguing about it.
On May 17 2009 04:50 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong HIMSELF said he had a slump recently. Seems to be reason enough to drop a place just for this month i don't know why people are arguing about it.
He lost like 3 games in proleague that mattered , thats like the shortest slump ever ... Imo if it was 1 spot it is ok he droped 3 spots . Maybe Jaedong losing 1 ZvZ is a definition of slump don't know . And i know others have been showing great results , but he is still the best zerg and seeing Zero above him because he is on a streak i don't like , because he is inconsistent as hell like Kal or someone else . Also i don't like seeing Fantasy above Jaedong . Fantasy is pretty good , but Jaedong showed that he is the better player after creaming him from being 0-2 behind . I know fantasy's builds are good but if it doesn't go his way his practically dead , thats what you can see just from game 5 of the OSL finals . Not to mention that if the map does not favour his builds he is forced to play standart and is a gonner like his last 2 games against zerg .
Also i can't help , but feel disgusted when i see TheZerg at # 10 spot , Calm or even great are more deserving , better then him skillwise have been carring their teams for a longer time, and TheZerg just now started to do something else then losing to help his team and hasn't impress me with nothing . Not to mention that you can find several better players that are showing as good results as him . I saw your reasonings , but i'm pretty sure that Calm could take a game from leta or even a series he is ZvT is solid unlike DaZurg's . Also judging great doesn't deserve the 10 spot , because he lost a ZvZ even against ZergBong doesn't deny the fact that he beat strong players in proleague with solid performance and has been the ACE player in Samsung Khan for this round and a solid zerg back up for then all proleague . Stork's been seeded for both leagues and played a few games in PL where he didn't exactly crashed and burned like JangBi so even he can replace TheZerg .
I don't really care since more then half of the month is done and next month i hope it gets more clear of who are the best players right now .
I'm surprised the PR doesn't mention Bisu's PvP. He's beastly in all three matchups, and certainly a long-time Zerg killer, but PvP has got to be his best one these days, better than even Best during his prime. 22-3 since December, losing only to Jangbi (twice), and that darn spinach dude.
Fantasy's TvP is awesome - how does anyone of ANY race beat Bisu three-zip?? I put Hiya up there too, and maybe Flash, but he struggles a fair bit against the Dragons. (How can Leta be in the top 5 TvP? He gets creamed there with alarming regularity.)
Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.
On May 17 2009 07:11 disciple wrote: Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.
I don't think many people have been saying PvP is BeSt and Stork's domain for some time now...at least not since ClubDay MSL Finals.
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote: why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
I'm not sure what exactly in Mogwai's post you're referring to as a logical fallacy, Avidkeystamper (I guess this is a disadvantage of copy/pasting previous posts you've made in this thread). While it of course would be ridiculous to seriously claim that a ranking of the "best" gamers would always contain Bisu/JD/Flash/etc., Mogwai only used "always" in the figurative sense to illustrate his point.
His point is extremely valid, and as I've mentioned previously it's one of the main reasons I decided to write the PR this way. You have to concede that, if my PR was based more on a general sense of "the best players" than on recent performance, it would be a lot less useful as a refresher on recent comings and goings in the BW scene. Part of what I'm trying to get readers to do is understand recent trends in individual performance and debate them - unfortunately, the many posters in this thread seem to want to challenge the basis for my rank rather than start a serious, fact-based argument over who really has been the most powerful Zerg since mid-April (an argument which I think would be much more interesting than the one's we've been busy with instead).
well JWD, the PR should be about who's the strongest player atm, it's the PR. So if u think that JD is stronger that zero, then u should've put him over zero, period.
On May 17 2009 04:50 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong HIMSELF said he had a slump recently. Seems to be reason enough to drop a place just for this month i don't know why people are arguing about it.
He lost like 3 games in proleague that mattered , thats like the shortest slump ever ... Imo if it was 1 spot it is ok he droped 3 spots .
raga4ka, the lines I'm quoting here are a perfect example of the type of totally untenable argument that many pro-JD posters have made thus far in this thread. You seem to be suggesting that Jaedong's rank should be based on some non-relative, entirely-JD-dependent measure of skill or "power": if JD plays poorly, he should drop 1 spot. If he plays really poorly, he should drop 3. And if he plays well, he should climb in the rank.
This isn't how a ranking works! The argument that Jaedong should be in some position in this month's rank based solely on a) his position in last month's rank and b) his performance over the past month is totally invalid, because it does not take into account the performance of any other player to appear on the rank!!
One other note: great point infinity2k9, I wish I'd thought of it myself. Jaedong is probably the best source on Jaedong. In case anyone is interested, here is the quote I think infinity2k9 is referring to:
Honestly, it’s true that I was beginning to doubt myself when I started to slump a bit before. Up until now, I’ve been relying too much purely on my skills and been too easy on myself, but recently as I’ve been gaining wins, I believe I’ve regained the confidence I’ve had in the past. There’s a lot of leagues coming up so I’ll become very busy, but I will work my utmost hardest never to show a slumping state again.
On May 17 2009 07:48 Jaeden wrote: well JWD, the PR should be about who's the strongest player atm, it's the PR.
Great if that's your opinion, but if you're not going to justify it whatsoever I don't think it's a useful contribution to this discussion (especially considering how in detail we've focused on this issue thus far).
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote: why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
I'm not sure what exactly in Mogwai's post you're referring to as a logical fallacy, Avidkeystamper (I guess this is a disadvantage of copy/pasting previous posts you've made in this thread). While it of course would be ridiculous to seriously claim that a ranking of the "best" gamers would always contain Bisu/JD/Flash/etc., Mogwai only used "always" in the figurative sense to illustrate his point.
His point is extremely valid, and as I've mentioned previously it's one of the main reasons I decided to write the PR this way. You have to concede that, if my PR was based more on a general sense of "the best players" than on recent performance, it would be a lot less useful as a refresher on recent comings and goings in the BW scene. Part of what I'm trying to get readers to do is understand recent trends in individual performance and debate them - unfortunately, the many posters in this thread seem to want to challenge the basis for my rank rather than start a serious, fact-based argument over who really has been the most powerful Zerg since mid-April (an argument which I think would be much more interesting than the one's we've been busy with instead).
He's saying that if people don't agree with this PR, then they want a static power rank, which is a dune argument that assumes no middle ground.
On May 17 2009 01:33 Mogwai wrote: why are people so adamant about wanting a somewhat static power rank? if we just always saw Bisu, Jaedong @ 1/2, Fantasy, Flash, Leta, Jangbi, Stork @ 3-8 and then random others at 9-10, what purpose do the 1-8 slots hold? what use does it serve if the power rank just reinforces your views of who the best players are? A power rank that shows you, at a glance, recent trends in who's continually kicking ass, and who's starting waves in the progaming scene is much better than one that just tell us who the sc community thinks are the best 10 players in the world, because it tells you something you may not have known and creates discussion,
I haven't read the last five pages but this response is for those saying that if "we don't judge by purely results, and instead by who is potentially better, then Bisu/Flash/JD will always be on top." Isn't that a dune argument though, the kind banned from SC2 section because it's 1) a logical fallacy and 2) really stupid and narrow. The power ranks in the past have been a mixture of both results and potential, so I don't see why people are dissing any power rank that considers the name value. Things are never absolute, it doesn't have to be black and white.
Also, SKT T1 fans generally have a slight bias against Jaedong and vice versa for Oz fans since a large portion of their fanbase is because of that star player. That was a repost. Spot using the Dune argument.
I'm not sure what exactly in Mogwai's post you're referring to as a logical fallacy, Avidkeystamper (I guess this is a disadvantage of copy/pasting previous posts you've made in this thread). While it of course would be ridiculous to seriously claim that a ranking of the "best" gamers would always contain Bisu/JD/Flash/etc., Mogwai only used "always" in the figurative sense to illustrate his point.
His point is extremely valid, and as I've mentioned previously it's one of the main reasons I decided to write the PR this way. You have to concede that, if my PR was based more on a general sense of "the best players" than on recent performance, it would be a lot less useful as a refresher on recent comings and goings in the BW scene. Part of what I'm trying to get readers to do is understand recent trends in individual performance and debate them - unfortunately, the many posters in this thread seem to want to challenge the basis for my rank rather than start a serious, fact-based argument over who really has been the most powerful Zerg since mid-April (an argument which I think would be much more interesting than the one's we've been busy with instead).
He's saying that if people don't agree with this PR, then they want a static power rank, which is a dune argument that assumes no middle ground.
OK I agree, but his post still does a good job of highlighting the shortcomings of what posters like tfeign are arguing is "the true basis for PR".
Yeah, I know, but many people in this thread that lean one way or another are labeled as only favoring potential or only favoring gameplay by other people, which is untrue.
How is Flash descending lower on the PR every month. How is he 8th. To me, that's just ridiculous. Zero has one more win in the Proleague and he's ranked 2nd. Zero just beat a Kal (who is .500 since taking off his glasses) a few times. Flash on the other hand is still doing amazing going 9-4 since the last PR. Some of his losses were to Skyhigh, where he bounced back in their next encounter and to Battle Royal, the most imbalanced map known to SC (Zerg 100% win rate).
hey mate, thats untrue! if there is a common thing between 95% of the TL members, besides the boxer fanboysm and the toss girl fetish, is that we all think Flash is the most talented sc player ever. Ppl just have very high expectations for him. We all know the titles will come, the only question is when...
On May 17 2009 10:41 disciple wrote: hey mate, thats untrue! if there is a common thing between 95% of the TL members, besides the boxer fanboysm and the toss girl fetish, is that we all think Flash is the most talented sc player ever. Ppl just have very high expectations for him. We all know the titles will come, the only question is when...
I think Jaedong and Bisu have more fans at TL than 5%
On May 17 2009 07:11 disciple wrote: Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.
i don't agree with this. go back and watch best's pvp games before incruit and the best vs stork series. it wasn't until after that series that their pvp dropped off enough for bisu to take the crown. i will admit that he's had the best pvp since then, but not for a whole year. sorry if i'm just being a bit nit-picky
On May 17 2009 07:11 disciple wrote: Bisu has been the best pvp-er for over a year now, I cant understand why ppl even mentioned this MU as BeSt or Storks playground. It takes a simple click on the TLPD to see that KTY is somewhere around 75% in PvP after his 0-3 loss vs stork in Ever OSL... which is a long period of time.
i don't agree with this. go back and watch best's pvp games before incruit and the best vs stork series. it wasn't until after that series that their pvp dropped off enough for bisu to take the crown. i will admit that he's had the best pvp since then, but not for a whole year. sorry if i'm just being a bit nit-picky
I guess Stork was the best PvP player up until after Incruit. However Bisu have been an absolute beast in the matchup for a long time now.
Since the EVER series vs Stork hes 42-13 for a 76% winrate PvP that is since February 08 more than a year ago. If we go closer in time, since July after his loss vs chalrenge hes 36-9 for an 80% winrate and that is closing in on a year.
To further strengthening his case for the best PvPer hes never lost a BOx vs anyone but Stork (whom he is 1-2 vs in BOx) and a total of 8-8 in games vs Stork (winning the 2 latest) and hes 3-0 vs Best, including a BO3. Also kind of like Jaedong in ZvZ he seems to constantly overcome build order deficits in PvP (look at how hes defended vs 4gate vs Kal, Jangbi and Free)
Dunno but I would say that hes at least as scary opponent now that Stork\Best ever was when they where at their PvP peaks.
On May 17 2009 12:21 fusionsdf wrote: Best definitely deserved his reputation as a PvP master. 16 wins in a row in a mirror matchup is absolutely insane
Sure he does, but hes failed every time hes gone up against his hardest opponents Bisu\Stork tho I have to say that without the god damn imba positions on Fantasy he probably would have beaten Stork in Bacchus.
Edit : Come to think of it he did beat Stork with that 2gate proxy on andromeda in OSL group stages, and recently in proleague (but stork have sucked in PvP since incruit) But both time they met in BOx for OSL hes lost.
On May 17 2009 10:41 disciple wrote: hey mate, thats untrue! if there is a common thing between 95% of the TL members, besides the boxer fanboysm and the toss girl fetish, is that we all think Flash is the most talented sc player ever. Ppl just have very high expectations for him. We all know the titles will come, the only question is when...
I think Jaedong and Bisu have more fans at TL than 5%
I dunno about Bisu fans, but JD fans don`t dislike Flash. I for one am a "little" fan of him, he`s a great player and I`m sure he will come back to the top
Anyyyyway JWD, what I am trying to say is that this PR have the most significant bias from any other PR , even if you agree with this or not even the fact of placing thezerg at #10 spot is an argument for my statement.
edit: ohh and sorry for being such an ass, you are a nice guy overall, you're just trying to defend ur work :D
edit2: don't get me wrong, that's what all PR writers should do!
On May 17 2009 13:27 Geo.Rion wrote: haha, fate always shows if the PR writer is wrong about sg like Luxury losing to everyone after being named the best ZvP now+ Show Spoiler +
, Zero (nr 1 ranked Z) is the first zerg to lose on BR against a T
This is a silly argument that has nothing to do with how well players performed last month.
On May 17 2009 13:27 Geo.Rion wrote: haha, fate always shows if the PR writer is wrong about sg like Luxury losing to everyone after being named the best ZvP now+ Show Spoiler +
, Zero (nr 1 ranked Z) is the first zerg to lose on BR against a T
This is a silly argument that has nothing to do with how well players performed last month.
that wasn`t even an argument for nothing, read carefully: "FATE"
On May 17 2009 13:27 Geo.Rion wrote: haha, fate always shows if the PR writer is wrong about sg like Luxury losing to everyone after being named the best ZvP now+ Show Spoiler +
, Zero (nr 1 ranked Z) is the first zerg to lose on BR against a T
This is a silly argument that has nothing to do with how well players performed last month.
It wasn't an argument... And nobody said it has to do anything with last month's performence...
On May 17 2009 12:56 fusionsdf wrote: if stork hadn't forgot range bisu might have lost that series
There was a point where best was dominant PvP. Then there was a period where Stork was dominant PvP. Now Bisu is dominant PvP.
BeSt was just on winning streak, Bisu is winning consistently for over a year, this is a hole different thing. The only reason I can think about why KTY's PvP is so out of the spotlight is his reputation as the PvZ revolutionist
On May 17 2009 15:51 JWD wrote: I'm now hoping that JD and ZerO meet in a BoX in a SL this season...and ZerO wins :o
No bias at all! (I'm kidding, this is a joke, please don't take this seriously.)
Anyhow I had a post on what I considered the overall shortcomings of the way you seem to make your PR on page 16 that you didn't respond to, as opposed to the general JD vs Zero argument, that I'd like to converse with you about, if you'd be so willing.
On May 17 2009 12:56 fusionsdf wrote: if stork hadn't forgot range bisu might have lost that series
There was a point where best was dominant PvP. Then there was a period where Stork was dominant PvP. Now Bisu is dominant PvP.
BeSt was just on winning streak, Bisu is winning consistently for over a year, this is a hole different thing. The only reason I can think about why KTY's PvP is so out of the spotlight is his reputation as the PvZ revolutionist
That is not true, Best went 27-5 for 83% from the beginning of his career up until he faced Stork in Incruit over a 2 year period. That is more than just a winning streak.
He did have really strong PvP, however I felt in several of his wins it was his opponents throwing away the game more than him winning them (vs Kal on chupung and vs Jangbi on blue storm comes to mind + some colloseum games I can`t remember vs who)
On May 17 2009 12:56 fusionsdf wrote: if stork hadn't forgot range bisu might have lost that series
There was a point where best was dominant PvP. Then there was a period where Stork was dominant PvP. Now Bisu is dominant PvP.
BeSt was just on winning streak, Bisu is winning consistently for over a year, this is a hole different thing. The only reason I can think about why KTY's PvP is so out of the spotlight is his reputation as the PvZ revolutionist
That is not true, Best went 27-5 for 83% from the beginning of his career up until he faced Stork in Incruit over a 2 year period. That is more than just a winning streak.
He did have really strong PvP, however I felt in several of his wins it was his opponents throwing away the game more than him winning them (vs Kal on chupung and vs Jangbi on blue storm comes to mind + some colloseum games I can`t remember vs who)
Well that didn't meen enything in front of Stork thought he kicked his ass in both Bacchus and Incruit was it .
It's official: for the first time since December 2007, Jaedong is not the Power Rank's highest-ranked Zerg (holy crap, December 2007). Why?
The only thing that pisses me off is that you drag up power rank history when placing zero above jaedong. The only reason that no other zergs has ever been placed before jaedong is that for 1 and a half year the power rank has been made with a different criteria than this one. When you pull up the history of jaedong being ranked the best zerg for 1.5 years, you make it seem like zero has accomplished something extraordinary, while all he did was have a good streak the one month the power rank was based on something else than the other 16ish months. I don't disagree with zero being above jaedong with the way you say you weight things, but then zero should be above fantasy as well, and calm should be above flash.
I just think changing the way the power rank is weighted so drastically makes no sense, unless you just wanted to create some discussion/drama in a month where nothing all that exiting has really happened.
On May 17 2009 15:51 JWD wrote: I'm now hoping that JD and ZerO meet in a BoX in a SL this season...and ZerO wins :o
Lol now you've been reduced to "hope"
The PR should be as Manifesto put it. The devil has challenged you to game of SC and you must pick a player to play on your behalf. There is no way anyone would chose Zero over Jaedong at this time.
To be fair, I don't think anyone in their right mind would pick ANYONE as a favorite against Jaedong in certain situations. He's the #1 choice in the world to go against any zerg, and the #1 choice in the world to go against anyone in a Bo5, plain and simple.
But for a one shot game I could see myself maybe picking Zero for ZvP or ZvT if I knew he was on top of his game. And if the map was Holy Word.
Seems good except for Zero over JD. JD has been playing well lately and isn't really slumping and it is still scary as shit for his opponents when they play him. The difference between JD and Zero is that when JD goes into a match he is expected to win, when Zero goes into match its a toss up.
I was going to write a lot of shit because JD is at fourth place. But then I thought to myself, that he is so good that I really don't care how people rates him. Guess its the definition of a "monthly" powerrank that puts him at 4th.
[QUOTE]On May 17 2009 22:54 lingallin wrote: [quote]It's official: for the first time since December 2007, Jaedong is not the Power Rank's highest-ranked Zerg (holy crap, December 2007). Why? Have you visited Zero's TLPD page lately ? [/quote]
This quote is the biggest insult to Jaedong's skills imo you know why ? Have you visited Jaedong's TLPD over the past 1.5 years or so ?
Record: 221 wins - 102 losses (68.42%) Averatec-Intel Classic Special Match GOLD 2008-09 Batoo OnGameNet Starleague 19 games GOLD 2008 WCG Korea Finals 9 games GOLD TG-Intel Classic 2008 Season 1 17 games GOLD 2008 Arena MBCGame Starleague 15 games SILVER 2008 GOMTV MBCGame Starleague Season 4 16 games GOLD 2007 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 13 games GOLD 2007 OnGameNet StarChallenge Season 1 Silver Current Kespa rank # 1 !!!!
The current OSL champion , was 1 win away from winning WL alone . Still the best zerg in all MU's with arguebly only JulyZerg showing as good results as him in ZvP . Luxury admitted he has a long way to go to reach Jaedong's skill level after he won his first league after a long wait , Zero admitted in his interview that people should be asking Jaedong for ZvZ tips not him and i don't blame them - Jaedong's ZvZ win ratio has been the highest ever since he started playing , he practically is competeting with only himself , not to mention he reaches new peaks with every single ZvZ he plays .
3 games in PL suddently throws all this legacy away and Zero of all people dethrones him . There were times when Luxury was doing a fuck ton better then him when he eliminated Flash from OSL and was in semis and still he didn't dethroned him in the PR and i know why , because Jaedong was still the best zerg , he still is and probably will be for at least a couple of more months . Even his haters should learn to respect his skills . Seriously i wish this was Savior then no one would dare argue him . Zero didn't do absolutely nothing other zergs haven't done even when Jaedong was doing worse . Since Savior there isn't a zerg that has been better or deserves a higher spot in eny "power" ranking then Jaedong , thats how dominant he is and the gap between the other zergs and him hasn't closed one bit if you ask me . Unless the other zerg starts to compete with him on a regular basis in the leagues its an insult to Jaedong that a zerg is higher then him in a power ranking while his skills are unmatched so far . Not just PL and not just for a 3 games period of time . I just find it hard that when Jaedong is playing at the level where he starts winning OSL title from being 0 : 2 behind and almost winning WL by himself in the near months that there is a player let alone a zerg greater then him . I acknowledge Bisu this month but Fantasy and especially Zero have to prove me a lot more .
It's official: for the first time since December 2007, Jaedong is not the Power Rank's highest-ranked Zerg (holy crap, December 2007). Why?
The only thing that pisses me off is that you drag up power rank history when placing zero above jaedong.
I just thought it would be interesting to note how long JD has been a dominant player. I can't even get away with throwing fun facts into the PR? Come on man, lighten up!
It's official: for the first time since December 2007, Jaedong is not the Power Rank's highest-ranked Zerg (holy crap, December 2007). Why?
The only thing that pisses me off is that you drag up power rank history when placing zero above jaedong.
I just thought it would be interesting to note how long JD has been a dominant player. I can't even get away with throwing fun facts into the PR?
Just that you imply some kind of continuity between this PR and previous ones, and imply that something major has changed, when the real thing that changed was the philosophy of the guy making the ranking.
To me, a monthly top-10 list of players would be about which 10 players I consider to be the best at the moment--i.e. if I had to bet on a game between two players, right now, who would I put my money on. It's about the present. By that standard, it's hard to imagine anyone putting ZerO over Jaedong.
To you, apparently, it's about the recent past: how well did they play since the last power ranking--taking nothing else into account. By that standard, placing ZerO above Jaedong is at least defensible. It doesn't really mean that something significant has happened since Dec. '07, though.
w/e, no big deal, though, just your opinion. If it was meant to provoke discussion, it's succeeded in that, at least.
edit: (I didn't read all 18 pages of this thread, sorry, so I hadn't read any of lingallin's post except the bit you quoted. read the rest of it now and he says pretty much everything I just wrote)
This thread demonstrates nothing but the number of Jaedong fanboys. Stork, JangBi, and Luxury (who WON AN MSL) are all completely gone and no one is complaining, but JD is 1 or 2 spots different on a very close scale and everyone is up in arms! Double standard, methinks.
On May 18 2009 05:11 Nylan wrote: JWD, awesome power rank
This thread demonstrates nothing but the number of Jaedong fanboys. Stork, JangBi, and Luxury (who WON AN MSL) are all completely gone and no one is complaining, but JD is 1 or 2 spots different on a very close scale and everyone is up in arms! Double standard, methinks.
Jangbi and Luxury shouldn't even be mentioned, even their boldest fans cannot say anything after they sucked in the PL and got fucked in the OSL. And yeah, there are lots of JD fans on this page, I am among them, but it really is premature to call Zero the best Zerg.
On May 18 2009 05:11 Nylan wrote: JWD, awesome power rank
This thread demonstrates nothing but the number of Jaedong fanboys. Stork, JangBi, and Luxury (who WON AN MSL) are all completely gone and no one is complaining, but JD is 1 or 2 spots different on a very close scale and everyone is up in arms! Double standard, methinks.
On May 18 2009 05:11 Nylan wrote: JWD, awesome power rank
This thread demonstrates nothing but the number of Jaedong fanboys. Stork, JangBi, and Luxury (who WON AN MSL) are all completely gone and no one is complaining, but JD is 1 or 2 spots different on a very close scale and everyone is up in arms! Double standard, methinks.
Stork is 4-4 since the last PR, including being knocked out of GOM by -MVP-, of all people. JangBi is losing matchups against inexperienced players in the match he's renowned for, and is 2-8 in his last 10. Luxury is a similarly dismal 3-7, with highlights of his recent performance including consecutive losses to KILLING HIS OWN ZERGLINGS.
Compare those 3 to a player who remains in GOM, OSL and (after a worrisome first game) MSL, going 6-5 between 4/11 and 5/12, before qualifying 2-1 out of his MSL group the night this PR was written. It's not quite the same, though I can definitely understand why you'd put him below Bisu and maybe, due to fanboyism, Fantasy. ZerO though? I really can't see it, even if it is through a mind that would put TheZerg 10th over players who mattered more to their teams' successes and had better records.
On May 15 2009 12:28 FranzF1 wrote: disagree with all... -.- Bisu First its ok, but fantasy number 2??? look at JD and Fantasy last 10 games... imo: 1 bisu 2 jd (close to bisu) 3 fantasy 4 zero 5 effort 6 leta 7 flash 8 skyhigh 9 dnt know
The only laughable thing about this PR is JWD's stubborn unwillingness to admit he made a mistake. He even went so far as to say Zero would take 2 in a Bo5 against Jaedong, demonstrating a particular bias against Jaedong and/or for Zero, who lost 0-3 to Luxury and wouldn't stand a chance against JD. Heck, I don't even like JD that much, but reality is reality.
The other weird thing is putting thezerg at 10. Great's proxy hatchery build on Neo Medusa was just as "innovative" and "courageous" as anything Fantasy's done recently, and certainly better than anything thezerg's done. Who cares what team thezerg is on? Talking about someone's "mental toughness" is as laughable as an amateur bystander talking about "locker room leadership" on a professional sports team. How would he know how much "mental toughness" a player has when all he ever sees of them is their live tv matches?
BTW, as an aside, whoever said JD is favored against anyone in a Bo5, I think Bisu would actually be favored, especially with the way he's been playing against zergs lately. Bisu has taken a race that has historically been trampled in SC rankings and absolutely dominated with it. From a pure talent standpoint I think he has the most.
On May 18 2009 06:38 latent wrote: The only laughable thing about this PR is JWD's stubborn unwillingness to admit he made a mistake. He even went so far as to say Zero would take 2 in a Bo5 against Jaedong, demonstrating a particular bias against Jaedong and/or for Zero, who lost 0-3 to Luxury and wouldn't stand a chance against JD. Heck, I don't even like JD that much, but reality is reality.
The other weird thing is putting thezerg at 10. Great's proxy hatchery build on Neo Medusa was just as "innovative" and "courageous" as anything Fantasy's done recently, and certainly better than anything thezerg's done. Who cares what team thezerg is on? Talking about someone's "mental toughness" is as laughable as an amateur bystander talking about "locker room leadership" on a professional sports team. How would he know how much "mental toughness" a player has when all he ever sees of them is their live tv matches?
BTW, as an aside, whoever said JD is favored against anyone in a Bo5, I think Bisu would actually be favored, especially with the way he's been playing against zergs lately. Bisu has taken a race that has historically been trampled in SC rankings and absolutely dominated with it. From a pure talent standpoint I think he has the most.
This was the same situation when they had their GOM showmatch, and for all intents and purposes, that was a tie. While Jaedong's ZvP may not be as consistent as July's, it fares much better against Bisu than July's does.
On May 18 2009 05:11 Nylan wrote: JWD, awesome power rank
This thread demonstrates nothing but the number of Jaedong fanboys. Stork, JangBi, and Luxury (who WON AN MSL) are all completely gone and no one is complaining, but JD is 1 or 2 spots different on a very close scale and everyone is up in arms! Double standard, methinks.
You didn't even use the term double standard correctly. -.-
On May 18 2009 06:38 latent wrote: The only laughable thing about this PR is JWD's stubborn unwillingness to admit he made a mistake. He even went so far as to say Zero would take 2 in a Bo5 against Jaedong, demonstrating a particular bias against Jaedong and/or for Zero, who lost 0-3 to Luxury and wouldn't stand a chance against JD. Heck, I don't even like JD that much, but reality is reality.
The other weird thing is putting thezerg at 10. Great's proxy hatchery build on Neo Medusa was just as "innovative" and "courageous" as anything Fantasy's done recently, and certainly better than anything thezerg's done. Who cares what team thezerg is on? Talking about someone's "mental toughness" is as laughable as an amateur bystander talking about "locker room leadership" on a professional sports team. How would he know how much "mental toughness" a player has when all he ever sees of them is their live tv matches?
BTW, as an aside, whoever said JD is favored against anyone in a Bo5, I think Bisu would actually be favored, especially with the way he's been playing against zergs lately. Bisu has taken a race that has historically been trampled in SC rankings and absolutely dominated with it. From a pure talent standpoint I think he has the most.
I don't think JWD has to admit to making a "mistake" because he didn't. Ranking Zero above JD is his opinion, and it's based off of who he felt performed better within the recent month. It's his power rank, and I'm sure you have yours.
And please don't speak in such a demeaning manner to JWD. He's been facing page after page of people arguing about the exact same thing over and over and he's been more than willing to debate and discuss, and has kept a cool head despite hordes of ravenous JD fans attacking something that, in the end, is just some guys educated opinion.
On May 18 2009 06:38 latent wrote: The only laughable thing about this PR is JWD's stubborn unwillingness to admit he made a mistake. He even went so far as to say Zero would take 2 in a Bo5 against Jaedong, demonstrating a particular bias against Jaedong and/or for Zero, who lost 0-3 to Luxury and wouldn't stand a chance against JD. Heck, I don't even like JD that much, but reality is reality.
The other weird thing is putting thezerg at 10. Great's proxy hatchery build on Neo Medusa was just as "innovative" and "courageous" as anything Fantasy's done recently, and certainly better than anything thezerg's done. Who cares what team thezerg is on? Talking about someone's "mental toughness" is as laughable as an amateur bystander talking about "locker room leadership" on a professional sports team. How would he know how much "mental toughness" a player has when all he ever sees of them is their live tv matches?
As previous noted, JWD's opinion is his opinion. There is no mistake in this power rank. There can only be debate about how others would put the rank differently.
I know you probably are too busy number crunching to actually watch games and consider this kind of thing, but there have been many a series in the history of SC that prove how valuable the 'mental toughness' you are scoffing at really is. The most recent series that showcases this very well is BeSt vs July, when July completely dominated his inexperienced opponent through the metagame.
Drop your superior attitude. You know so much less than you think you do, so stop pretending you are so much better than JWD. He is very qualified for this, why otherwise would the staff of TL even let him near the PR.
On May 18 2009 06:38 latent wrote: The only laughable thing about this PR is JWD's stubborn unwillingness to admit he made a mistake. He even went so far as to say Zero would take 2 in a Bo5 against Jaedong, demonstrating a particular bias against Jaedong and/or for Zero, who lost 0-3 to Luxury and wouldn't stand a chance against JD. Heck, I don't even like JD that much, but reality is reality.
The other weird thing is putting thezerg at 10. Great's proxy hatchery build on Neo Medusa was just as "innovative" and "courageous" as anything Fantasy's done recently, and certainly better than anything thezerg's done. Who cares what team thezerg is on? Talking about someone's "mental toughness" is as laughable as an amateur bystander talking about "locker room leadership" on a professional sports team. How would he know how much "mental toughness" a player has when all he ever sees of them is their live tv matches?
As previous noted, JWD's opinion is his opinion. There is no mistake in this power rank. There can only be debate about how others would put the rank differently.
I know you probably are too busy number crunching to actually watch games and consider this kind of thing, but there have been many a series in the history of SC that prove how valuable the 'mental toughness' you are scoffing at really is. The most recent series that showcases this very well is BeSt vs July, when July completely dominated his inexperienced opponent through the metagame.
Drop your superior attitude. You know so much less than you think you do, so stop pretending you are so much better than JWD. He is very qualified for this, why otherwise would the staff of TL even let him near the PR.
There's one new issue that the last few pages of comments have raised that I've meant to address but haven't had the time...so here goes. In response to my prediction that a ZerO-JD best-of-five would probably end 3>2 in favor of JD, multiple posters have said that there's no way ZerO would stand a chance given his 0-3 loss to Luxury in LS MSL.
I'm totally aware of that series, but I don't think it's nearly as significant as you guys do. First, it was played during a period when Luxury was playing the best StarCraft of his career. He was on a huge high after beating Hwasin and Leta relatively easy and without having to compromise his style whatsoever. Also things were coming together for him and KTF in WL. Luxury was a beastly opponent in LS MSL, especially in ZvZ. This point takes a bit of the wind out of the sails of the "JD>Lux and Lux>ZerO, therefore JD>ZerO" argument (again not talking about PR here, just a Bo5 series).
Second, and much more crucially, ZerO was just not himself in that series. He played nowhere near as well as he had against Savior in the Ro8 or Yarnc in the Ro16...he played without any confidence or poise. This is a weakness which plagued him tons earlier in his career, but a weakness which, despite the recency of his loss to Luxury, I think he's finally rid himself of. With a deep SL run under his belt and such a monstrous April-May run, ZerO's nerves are looking better and better. Basically, the point is this: were ZerO to play JD today, he would be able to handle pressure much better than he did against Luxury.
Third, ZerO's ZvZ is simply getting better and better by the day - and his recent wins in PL prove it. It's silly to imply that ZerO would play as well against JD today as he did against Lux a month ago, because ZerO is a different (better) player than he was a month ago. Especially in ZvZ.
i think losing on a 7-0 ZvT map might make us all reconsider zero's position as #3. just dont think zero is well balanced enough to deserve such a high ranking
On May 18 2009 09:30 ZidaneTribal wrote: i think losing on a 7-0 ZvT map might make us all reconsider zero's position as #3. just dont think zero is well balanced enough to deserve such a high ranking
On May 18 2009 09:30 ZidaneTribal wrote: i think losing on a 7-0 ZvT map might make us all reconsider zero's position as #3. just dont think zero is well balanced enough to deserve such a high ranking
Stupid for three reasons:
1 - Not part of the time period involved in the power rank, so the game should not even be part of the equation
2 - Using a single game to reconsider a PR spot is kinda stupid
On May 18 2009 09:30 ZidaneTribal wrote: i think losing on a 7-0 ZvT map might make us all reconsider zero's position as #3. just dont think zero is well balanced enough to deserve such a high ranking
Stupid for three reasons:
1 - Not part of the time period involved in the power rank, so the game should not even be part of the equation
How a player performs immediately before and after a time period is a strong indication of how good a player is during that time period.
2 - Using a single game to reconsider a PR spot is kinda stupid
mm hmm. What about using 5 games to decide that PR spot in the first place.
3 - You don't "re-consider" PR. It is the law.
whatever you say
Anyway, if PR is to be a ranking of performances in a particular month, then OK, maybe zero deserved his spot. There also would be no need for human involvement in the PR at all: a computer could calculate the spots via Elo-performance (actually I wonder what kind of list that would have led to). It also would be a rather meaningless list, since anything can happen over such a short period.
If it is to be an estimate of who the top 10 players are at a particular time, it seems pretty relevant that the so-called "3rd in the world" and best Zerg, loses to a Terran (in a fairly badly-played game on the Zerg's part) mere days after his coronation.
On May 17 2009 12:56 fusionsdf wrote: if stork hadn't forgot range bisu might have lost that series
There was a point where best was dominant PvP. Then there was a period where Stork was dominant PvP. Now Bisu is dominant PvP.
BeSt was just on winning streak, Bisu is winning consistently for over a year, this is a hole different thing. The only reason I can think about why KTY's PvP is so out of the spotlight is his reputation as the PvZ revolutionist
That is not true, Best went 27-5 for 83% from the beginning of his career up until he faced Stork in Incruit over a 2 year period. That is more than just a winning streak.
He did have really strong PvP, however I felt in several of his wins it was his opponents throwing away the game more than him winning them (vs Kal on chupung and vs Jangbi on blue storm comes to mind + some colloseum games I can`t remember vs who)
Well that didn't meen enything in front of Stork thought he kicked his ass in both Bacchus and Incruit was it .
Hence I wrote up to Incruit, would you say Savior sucked in ZvP just because after Bisu broke him for the second time hes sucked?
As for Bacchus no sane person would say Stork kicked his ass, have you even watched the games? If Best did not get fucked over by the worst positional imbalance ever to occur in a mirror match in the 3rd game at Fantasy he would probably have beaten Stork. He outmacroed and outmicroed Stork for the longest time but the fucked up map made it impossible for him to attack due to the bridges (granted he did 2 retarded attacks, once down the small ramp and in the end attacking uphill against Storks defensive position). Some positional disadvantages are normal in PvP, like playing 6 vs 3 on Medusa, 6 vs 1 on Tau Cross and 1 vs 11 on Othello. However the positional imbalance of Xeno Sky vs Nostalgia on Fantasy is beyond ridiculous.
I swear reading the comments in the PR often gives the youtube comments a good run for the money for whats worst...
This is one of the implications of PR coming out late. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed to be the PR for April '09? Not trying to ride on JWD like many others here (and I'm definitely not saying that I can make a better PR) but stuff like ZerO 2-0ing his OSL group happened in early May.
I'm not sure how the PR would look solely taking achievements for April into account, but I'm pretty sure that it'd be different. Regardless, it's still a fun read and props to JWD for taking the time to make the PR
It's been coming out halfway through the month for awhile now. Mani tried to fix it by releasing one early, but FS countered with his "I'm busy IRL" to establish balance.
Yeah the mid-month thing is kind of a problem just because now the "May Power Rank" includes games from both April and May. I guess the best solution would be to slowly inch the PR's publication date closer to the first of the month, but that'd take some discipline
On May 18 2009 11:10 Metallingus wrote: This is one of the implications of PR coming out late. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed to be the PR for April '09? Not trying to ride on JWD like many others here (and I'm definitely not saying that I can make a better PR) but stuff like ZerO 2-0ing his OSL group happened in early May.
I'm not sure how the PR would look solely taking achievements for April into account, but I'm pretty sure that it'd be different. Regardless, it's still a fun read and props to JWD for taking the time to make the PR
It's about right now, regardless of when it is. It just came out in May.
Just an Idea. Why not make a new PR for june 1st this time and then keep it on date?
This PR will then be shortlived but you can always put the same ranks if you feel its correct etc, it would just be nice to have it actually on time and then keep it that way!
I would suggest a detailed description of how you judge the ranks in a spoiler before the ranks or something like that so people won't get confused. I know you explain it a little bit in each ranks but it would be easier to get a grasp of whats improtant for the ranks in a seperate column.
On May 18 2009 06:38 latent wrote: The only laughable thing about this PR is JWD's stubborn unwillingness to admit he made a mistake. He even went so far as to say Zero would take 2 in a Bo5 against Jaedong, demonstrating a particular bias against Jaedong and/or for Zero, who lost 0-3 to Luxury and wouldn't stand a chance against JD. Heck, I don't even like JD that much, but reality is reality.
The other weird thing is putting thezerg at 10. Great's proxy hatchery build on Neo Medusa was just as "innovative" and "courageous" as anything Fantasy's done recently, and certainly better than anything thezerg's done. Who cares what team thezerg is on? Talking about someone's "mental toughness" is as laughable as an amateur bystander talking about "locker room leadership" on a professional sports team. How would he know how much "mental toughness" a player has when all he ever sees of them is their live tv matches?
As previous noted, JWD's opinion is his opinion. There is no mistake in this power rank. There can only be debate about how others would put the rank differently.
I know you probably are too busy number crunching to actually watch games and consider this kind of thing, but there have been many a series in the history of SC that prove how valuable the 'mental toughness' you are scoffing at really is. The most recent series that showcases this very well is BeSt vs July, when July completely dominated his inexperienced opponent through the metagame.
Drop your superior attitude. You know so much less than you think you do, so stop pretending you are so much better than JWD. He is very qualified for this, why otherwise would the staff of TL even let him near the PR.
Yes, JWD is qualified for this. The only problem is his bias
On May 18 2009 18:28 Phradamon wrote: Also, KeSPA for no 9 is funny but is tragis. Anyway, the big miss in PR is HiyA, who should have been no 9....
or just trade SkyHigh for him >.< ever since i traded FOR him, he has been awefull. skyhigh has really dropped the ball a couple times in PL the last couple weeks. i dont wanna spoil any matches, but as an individual he is showing some of that Lux type, rampant inconcistancy... where 1 game he owns some S-class player, and next game gets beat by Rock or some shit >.<
On May 18 2009 17:00 StylishVODs wrote: Just an Idea. Why not make a new PR for june 1st this time and then keep it on date?
This PR will then be shortlived but you can always put the same ranks if you feel its correct etc, it would just be nice to have it actually on time and then keep it that way!
I would suggest a detailed description of how you judge the ranks in a spoiler before the ranks or something like that so people won't get confused. I know you explain it a little bit in each ranks but it would be easier to get a grasp of whats improtant for the ranks in a seperate column.
I second this. Also make sure Jaedong is above Zero next PR. Its obviously a mistake to put Zero this high + Show Spoiler +
On May 18 2009 18:28 Phradamon wrote: Also, KeSPA for no 9 is funny but is tragis. Anyway, the big miss in PR is HiyA, who should have been no 9....
KeSPA being on the list is a good way to get the word out that they're fucking up big time. It's funny, but I also think it serves a larger purpose of educating people who haven't been keeping a close eye on KeSPA.
Also,
HiyA was 8-6 over the period Calm was 10-3...
I still think that Calm being off the list is the biggest problem with it. I don't even see him and TheZerg as comparable, it's clear cut in Calm's favor to me... he's just been such a monster lately.
Comparing ZerO's ZvZ with JD's is very questionable. Looking at TLPD, their current versus zerg win streaks are equal, but if you look before that (this happened barely over two months ago and is relevant when trying to determine how likely the players are to keep performing strongly) JD comes off another 10 win streak while ZerO had a recent 5 loss streak. While this might not be relevant for the PR, the fact of the matter is that ZerO has played 49 ZvZ games and lost 22. JD has played 85 and lost 16.
When you compare the games, JD also makes his opponents look remarkably helpless while ZerO's wins look more like "normal" ZvZ games.
This is not mentioning that when ZerO lost his series against Lux, JD completely dismantled Lux not two weeks later (one day after his MSL title). I don't know why JWD wants to argue this point but it seems very unlikely that ZerO would take more than one game from JD in a BO5. People were saying that by.hero had a chance and look what happened to him, JD is called the zerg versus zerg bonjwa for a reason.
edit: and yes I know two of those ZvZ's happened after the PRs release.
And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
it was a different interpretation of "power" and was completely fine as a nod to a progamer who did something FakeSteve felt like mentioning.
ZerO was hot for the entire ranking period, Jaedong was bouncing back towards the end of the ranking period from a few weeks of uncharacteristically weak play, it's not the end of the world if ZerO's 3 and JD's 4. I'm a JD fanboi too, but giving ZerO credit for a remarkable month and a half of play isn't going to change anyone's mind on who the best Z in the world is.
also, I totally stole the DogSPA pic for my smashboard's avatar and it makes me really happy, <3 JWD.
And seriously, I believe almost everyone agrees the Power Rank measures how good a player is at a certain point in time taking into account all factors including potential, consistency, and the previous month, not just performance in the previous month alone
Poll: May Power Ranking should rank (Vote): How powerful players are at the time of the ranking (Vote): Players' performances in April
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
FakeSteve did not mean Sea[Shield]'s #1 ranking seriously. as witnessed by his accompanying text. And who put the chip on your shoulder anyway, fanaticist? Obviously ranking zero ahead of Jaedong was a provocative move, and obviously it provoked discussion. Also obviously, zero's recent performance has some relevance to the discussion.
We appreciate JWD's taking the time to write the rank and try to defend it. That's not the issue. Relax, wouldya?
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
wtf dude, ur gf left u?! CHILL ffs! don`t insult people this easy, wth
Well, Leta had the benefit of maintaining an absurd record (almost 80%) for eight months; Zero's streak started less than a month ago. Leta also beat better opponents with more ease as well. I wouldn't call that "much worse".
On May 19 2009 07:33 Sentenal wrote: Leta being #1 on the Power Rank (above the likes of Bisu, Jaedong, Jangbi, Flash) was much worse than Zero being above Jaedong, IMO.
Leta's placement was legit. He was unstoppable until the following month.
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
wtf dude, ur gf left u?! CHILL ffs! don`t insult people this easy, wth
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
FakeSteve did not mean Sea[Shield]'s #1 ranking seriously. as witnessed by his accompanying text. And who put the chip on your shoulder anyway, fanaticist? Obviously ranking zero ahead of Jaedong was a provocative move, and obviously it provoked discussion. Also obviously, zero's recent performance has some relevance to the discussion.
We appreciate JWD's taking the time to write the rank and try to defend it. That's not the issue. Relax, wouldya?
There are other places to honor players. This is the power rank, not the good foreign relations and people I practice with rank.
People saying all sorts of shit to JWD even though there has been many pages of his explanation for it.
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
FakeSteve did not mean Sea[Shield]'s #1 ranking seriously. as witnessed by his accompanying text. And who put the chip on your shoulder anyway, fanaticist? Obviously ranking zero ahead of Jaedong was a provocative move, and obviously it provoked discussion. Also obviously, zero's recent performance has some relevance to the discussion.
We appreciate JWD's taking the time to write the rank and try to defend it. That's not the issue. Relax, wouldya?
There are other places to honor players. This is the power rank, not the good foreign relations and people I practice with rank.
People saying all sorts of shit to JWD even though there has been many pages of his explanation for it.
Do you really think he put Sea as #1 because he knew it would please him if he saw it? It was obviously a joke and even Sea probably knows himself that its a joke. For your sake, I hope you learn what sarcasm is for your life outside of TL
Besides, not everyone is giving shit to JWD; there are several people who have been politely pointing out that it might have been a mistake to place Zero above JD and trying to defend their reasons for it...There is a reason why tons of people complain / discuss about his placement. That reason is that people don't agree with it. I think discussion and explanation about a controversial material is pretty healthy
On May 19 2009 08:54 OneOther wrote: stork getting back in full shape ;P
SAME WITH JANGBI
I'm so glad you posted here again !
hi disciple, long time no talk i do miss the old days of fiercely defending my power rankings, especially stork. oh man. the whole stork vs bisu debate!
[QUOTE]On May 18 2009 01:57 raga4ka wrote: [QUOTE]On May 17 2009 22:54 lingallin wrote: [quote]It's official: for the first time since December 2007, Jaedong is not the Power Rank's highest-ranked Zerg (holy crap, December 2007). Why? Have you visited Zero's TLPD page lately ? [/quote]
This quote is the biggest insult to Jaedong's skills imo you know why ? Have you visited Jaedong's TLPD over the past 1.5 years or so ?
Record: 221 wins - 102 losses (68.42%) Averatec-Intel Classic Special Match GOLD 2008-09 Batoo OnGameNet Starleague 19 games GOLD 2008 WCG Korea Finals 9 games GOLD TG-Intel Classic 2008 Season 1 17 games GOLD 2008 Arena MBCGame Starleague 15 games SILVER 2008 GOMTV MBCGame Starleague Season 4 16 games GOLD 2007 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 13 games GOLD 2007 OnGameNet StarChallenge Season 1 Silver Current Kespa rank # 1 !!!!
The current OSL champion , was 1 win away from winning WL alone . Still the best zerg in all MU's with arguebly only JulyZerg showing as good results as him in ZvP . Luxury admitted he has a long way to go to reach Jaedong's skill level after he won his first league after a long wait , Zero admitted in his interview that people should be asking Jaedong for ZvZ tips not him and i don't blame them - Jaedong's ZvZ win ratio has been the highest ever since he started playing , he practically is competeting with only himself , not to mention he reaches new peaks with every single ZvZ he plays .
3 games in PL suddently throws all this legacy away and Zero of all people dethrones him . There were times when Luxury was doing a fuck ton better then him when he eliminated Flash from OSL and was in semis and still he didn't dethroned him in the PR and i know why , because Jaedong was still the best zerg , he still is and probably will be for at least a couple of more months . Even his haters should learn to respect his skills . Seriously i wish this was Savior then no one would dare argue him . Zero didn't do absolutely nothing other zergs haven't done even when Jaedong was doing worse . Since Savior there isn't a zerg that has been better or deserves a higher spot in eny "power" ranking then Jaedong , thats how dominant he is and the gap between the other zergs and him hasn't closed one bit if you ask me . Unless the other zerg starts to compete with him on a regular basis in the leagues its an insult to Jaedong that a zerg is higher then him in a power ranking while his skills are unmatched so far . Not just PL and not just for a 3 games period of time . I just find it hard that when Jaedong is playing at the level where he starts winning OSL title from being 0 : 2 behind and almost winning WL by himself in the near months that there is a player let alone a zerg greater then him . I acknowledge Bisu this month but Fantasy and especially Zero have to prove me a lot more .[/QUOTE]
this.
also, power rank needs a better definition. is it best palyer of last month in terms of W/L? or is it most powerful player at the moment?
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
wtf dude, ur gf left u?! CHILL ffs! don`t insult people this easy, wth
I thought you meant my post.
I didn`t meant anything, it was not I who quoted your post
edit: but yeah, he was referring to sea[shield]'s placement in that PR, not ur post
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
wtf dude, ur gf left u?! CHILL ffs! don`t insult people this easy, wth
I thought you meant my post.
I didn`t meant anything, it was not I who quoted your post
edit: but yeah, he was referring to sea[shield]'s placement in that PR, not ur post
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
Also, don't forget Sea[Shield] #1.
that was obviously a joke...
? You're obviously a joke...
FakeSteve did not mean Sea[Shield]'s #1 ranking seriously. as witnessed by his accompanying text. And who put the chip on your shoulder anyway, fanaticist? Obviously ranking zero ahead of Jaedong was a provocative move, and obviously it provoked discussion. Also obviously, zero's recent performance has some relevance to the discussion.
We appreciate JWD's taking the time to write the rank and try to defend it. That's not the issue. Relax, wouldya?
There are other places to honor players. This is the power rank, not the good foreign relations and people I practice with rank.
People saying all sorts of shit to JWD even though there has been many pages of his explanation for it.
Do you really think he put Sea as #1 because he knew it would please him if he saw it? It was obviously a joke and even Sea probably knows himself that its a joke. For your sake, I hope you learn what sarcasm is for your life outside of TL
Besides, not everyone is giving shit to JWD; there are several people who have been politely pointing out that it might have been a mistake to place Zero above JD and trying to defend their reasons for it...There is a reason why tons of people complain / discuss about his placement. That reason is that people don't agree with it. I think discussion and explanation about a controversial material is pretty healthy
Sarcasm is supposed to be funny, or at least have dry humor. That didn't. I guess everyone has their own opinion on this sort of thing, but I know that others shared my opinion. Hence I bring it up as a counter to Zero > JD being the worst post in the history of the PR.
Did I say it was everyone? I said assholes, rubbing it in his face. If that's not you, then good for you. If you are this guy:
On May 19 2009 01:44 NovaTheFeared wrote: More evidence keeps piling up every day that Zero > Jaedong is the worst PR call in the feature's history.
"WORST CALL IN ALL OF FUCKING PR TIME FUCK!" ... then you are who I was talking about, who also happens to be the poster before my post.
Are we clear now or do I have to justify my words further?
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
On May 19 2009 15:19 Avidkeystamper wrote: It doesn't need a definition, each writer defines it their own way. FS's PRs were about the most powerful player at the moment.
But you see it doesn't make sense to make a ranking just to measure one month's results , especially for entertainment value (which PR is) when ranking and debating about the strongest overall players is so much more subjective and fun.
I say JWD made a mistake this month. He failed to consider what the majority of TL (including Etter, FakeSteve, OneOther, and Manifesto) already understand PR to be. Why would you rank specifically one month when its more interesting in almost every way to rank the better player overall?
KeSPA is a veritable fucking force. Half of its matches are in the past two months and it won all of them so thoroughly that they had to change the rules. CHANGE THE RULES. 7 victories in 2 months including wins over Leta, Luxury and GoRush.
Fuck dude. You badly underestimate the power there. KeSPA is a clear cut above the best, let alone the rest.
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
On May 19 2009 02:54 fanatacist wrote: And more assholes come here to post that as if rubbing it in his face, even though he took the time to write the rank and he tried to explain it throughout the threads. God damn.
I personally think this PR is the best in the long time solely based on the criteria that it's run up 22 pages of controversy in about a week. Seriously, if the PR just makes everybody go "meh, gj FS" (or whoever), what's the point?
That said, Zero doesn't belong in the May PR, so I'll grant him his moment of glory for now.
Putting Jaedong as 4th behind especially Zero after going 8-2 last 10 just after winning the OSL doesn't make sense. JWD doesn't have enough objective judgement to make these kinds of PR's, I have no idea how he even got to make one in the first place. He just seems like a fanboy, overrating certain players(namely SKT, and watch the SKT vs eSTRO thread for something more about this), and underrating others(Hwaseung, CJ come to mind) for no reason other than his fanboyism.
Objective judgement is required for the PR, and he certainly lacks it, as I think has been shown time and time again. But if this is now the trend for the PR's, hey, how about we have Realpenguin make the next PR? I'm sure that's going to be accurate.
On May 20 2009 01:40 Shikyo wrote: JWD doesn't have enough objective judgement to make these kinds of PR's, I have no idea how he even got to make one in the first place. He just seems like a fanboy, overrating certain players(namely SKT, and watch the SKT vs eSTRO thread for something more about this), and underrating others(Hwaseung, CJ come to mind) for no reason other than his fanboyism.
Objective judgement is required for the PR, and he certainly lacks it, as I think has been shown time and time again. But if this is now the trend for the PR's, hey, how about we have Realpenguin make the next PR? I'm sure that's going to be accurate.
You're ignoring the wealth of objective information (facts) I've used to back up my rank. Suppose for a moment I was too biased to produce an objectively defensible PR (which seems to be your contention) - wouldn't it be super easy for you to demonstrate that my PR was obviously the result of bias as opposed to careful thought and consideration? Please lay out your argument...so far you've done nothing but attack my integrity.
And what, I can't even cheer for anyone in LR threads anymore? I find it hilarious that you're pointing people to other threads here to prove that I like SK Telecom T1...their logo is in my fucking signature.
How can you even suggest I "underrated" CJ? Jeebus, they have the 6th and 7th slot in the rank. What other CJ players are near PR-worthy?
PS: re: "I have no idea how he even got to make one in the first place", actually I have FakeSteve locked up in my basement right now. I made him publish my rank at gunpoint. Then I went and masturbated at my shrine to Bisu, Fantasy, and Thezerg.
I for one think the power rank is just fine. Zero over Jaedong was questionable, sure, but it gives people something to talk about. I think great should probably have not been dismissed on the basis of his team, especially since Samsung Khan really wasn't doing that badly, either.
On May 19 2009 15:19 Avidkeystamper wrote: It doesn't need a definition, each writer defines it their own way. FS's PRs were about the most powerful player at the moment.
But you see it doesn't make sense to make a ranking just to measure one month's results , especially for entertainment value (which PR is) when ranking and debating about the strongest overall players is so much more subjective and fun.
I say JWD made a mistake this month. He failed to consider what the majority of TL (including Etter, FakeSteve, OneOther, and Manifesto) already understand PR to be. Why would you rank specifically one month when its more interesting in almost every way to rank the better player overall?
On May 20 2009 03:03 JWD wrote: PS: re: "I have no idea how he even got to make one in the first place", actually I have FakeSteve locked up in my basement right now. I made him publish my rank at gunpoint. Then I went and masturbated at my shrine to Bisu, Fantasy, and Thezerg.
IMO this gives JWD more than enough street cred to write the power rank.
Awesome, well thought out ranking JWD, good job! I'm not saying mine would have been the same, but if you people want a completely objective ranking, go look at the KESPA rank. But why don't you? because it would be boring - just because JWD has difference opinions than you does not mean he is a blind fanboy. All of his placements (even Zero and TheZerg) he has backed up with reasoning, an so even if its apparent that they are 'incorrect' I don't think it much matters.
I think the issue most people has is how he introduced Zero. It didn't start out with "Zero had an incredible month, outperforming Jaedong or matching him in just about everything," or something like that, but with "For the first time in forever, a Zerg is now over Jaedong in the Power Rank!"
Which is kind of a spit in the face to Jaedong fans. It's technically true, but it really is only because the criteria changed because there's a new PR writer. He made it out to be some coronation for Zero, when it wasn't. His specific Power Rank criteria (which many disagree with but it's not up for us to decide) makes Zero technically higher placed because he seems to stress pure performance and people KNOW if this were the old Power Rank that introduces new hotshots a bit more cautiously and gives leeway to big stars who stumble a bit but regain their footing, Jaedong would obviously be over him.
That's not ALL of the reason why people take issue with it. A big argument could be made for his strict "monthly performance" talk meaning jack because he's willing to bend the rules for a funny tidbit like Kespa, or, in his own words, toss DA ZURG a bone when there were undisputably people who performed better than him through pure statistics and through gameplay itself -- Great is one, but Calm who he specifically forgot to even include in CNBC comes to mind the most. Calm had probably the second best "month" of any zerg and saying TheZerg deserves the spot over him based on his criteria he set forth as a reason to have Zero over Jaedong seems sketchy at best.
It's true, he can do whatever the hell he wants with his Rank, but people have full right to take issue with it because it is so radically different from past ranks and, hell, in and of itself has a few problems some (like me) could think of.
That's not ALL of the reason why people take issue with it. A big argument could be made for his strict "monthly performance" talk meaning jack because he's willing to bend the rules for a funny tidbit like Kespa, or, in his own words, toss DA ZURG a bone when there were undisputably people who performed better than him through pure statistics and through gameplay itself -- Great is one, but Calm who he specifically forgot to even include in CNBC comes to mind the most. Calm had probably the second best "month" of any zerg and saying TheZerg deserves the spot over him based on his criteria he set forth as a reason to have Zero over Jaedong seems sketchy at best.
After the fact, was the point I was making. If he really couldn't remember Calm for CNBC in the first place, how was he so sure when putting thezerg in the PR?
Point stands that his criteria shifted further down. It wasn't "admittedly similar records," Calm had, pure record wise, the second best month next to Zero for zergs. He continues on about how TheZerg is part of the reason SKT1 is doing so well which is pretty trivial when his main reason for dropping Jaedong was "record record record." It wreaks of making excuses -- "Gorush is doing good on Battle Royal!" I'm a big fan of the oldbies but that is definitely not worth mentioning. The only other people he mentions are a superbly slumping Jangbi (like most of Calm's guys, not even on the rank this month) and Hiya's weak TvZ. TheZerg did nothing special -- nothing more than Calm. His record isn't as good. His play isn't as good. There is nothing beyond "He helped SKT1 this round" that should put him over Calm and if that's the sole reason, then he's pretty flip floppy on his reasons.
To Summarize:
He stresses record for putting Zero over Jaedong but immediately dismisses Calm's near spotless record in favor of TheZerg because SKT1 is doing well. Claims of 'evaluating' Calm and saying he wasn't quite good enough for the top 10 after forgetting about him entirely for CNBC wreaks of backtracking. Also mentioning gameplay for TheZerg vs Leta -- if we take 1 performance as a measuring stick, then Jaedong's recent games before the PR where he bounced back in true badass playing form should've count for something, but didn't get a passing mention.
His PR, his call, but people have every right in the world to find issue with this. The people getting all uppity about others voicing their opinion about this should drop it since there's a really legitimate argument.
Is it possible to do an earlier PR this time or a later PR so that the PR will be out in the 1st of a month.
If its 1st one month it will be much easier to keep making them the 1st of each month, instead of like the 15th each month. Its still 1 month between the PRs.
On May 20 2009 03:03 JWD wrote: PS: re: "I have no idea how he even got to make one in the first place", actually I have FakeSteve locked up in my basement right now. I made him publish my rank at gunpoint. Then I went and masturbated at my shrine to Bisu, Fantasy, and Thezerg.
IMO this gives JWD more than enough street cred to write the power rank.
Awesome, well thought out ranking JWD, good job! I'm not saying mine would have been the same, but if you people want a completely objective ranking, go look at the KESPA rank. But why don't you? because it would be boring - just because JWD has difference opinions than you does not mean he is a blind fanboy. All of his placements (even Zero and TheZerg) he has backed up with reasoning, an so even if its apparent that they are 'incorrect' I don't think it much matters.
" but if you people want a completely objective ranking, go look at the KESPA rank." Erm..you'll lose all credibility if you say that. Are you saying FS's power ranks, besides his placements for Sea[Shield] aren't objective? Because they sure are fun to read. To quote a 5-star poster: "false dichotomy yo".
FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
Okay, I guess you're right, but my point was that an objective ranking will never have the same ranking as the KeSPA ranks and can be just as entertaining depending on the writer.
haha, TL's PR means little except to watch out for these players. It's not official so it's destined to be subjective, who cares if you agree or not with JWD. I think all of the players on the PR currently are well worth watching. If you care about real stats look at ELO rating and Kespa's ranking system first. Otherwise all you're doing is bitching about someone's opinion.
Have you visited Zero's TLPD page lately? Things are beginning to look a bit crazy in there. Aside from 4-0ing his OSL group with infested Terrans for style, over the past month Zero has unleashed a ferocious beatdown on his fellow Zergs to prove that his Lost Saga MSL practice hours have made him a premier ZvZ player to rival even the Legend Killer.
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
FS's PR may some shaky placements, but he quickly forgets it the next month. He is way more objective than JWD. And FS doesn`t have a bias towards a specific team, and put as many players from that team in the PR.
also twotoneterran's post is valid. He may be a little aggressive but he's got some pretty good arguments for his opinions.
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
FS's PR may some shaky placements, but he quickly forgets it the next month. He is way more objective than JWD.
Well, that bit isn't fair, since JWD has only done the ranking one month. I am sure that if he does it next month, he will also revise some of the shakier placements.
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
FS's PR may some shaky placements, but he quickly forgets it the next month. He is way more objective than JWD.
Well, that bit isn't fair, since JWD has only done the ranking one month. I am sure that if he does it next month, he will also revise some of the shakier placements.
well yeah, ur right but since he only did one month, I can only judge him by that
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
FS's PR may some shaky placements, but he quickly forgets it the next month. He is way more objective than JWD.
Well, that bit isn't fair, since JWD has only done the ranking one month. I am sure that if he does it next month, he will also revise some of the shakier placements.
well yeah, ur right but since he only did one month, I can only judge him by that
I think you totally missed qrs's point (a good one).
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
FS's PR may some shaky placements, but he quickly forgets it the next month. He is way more objective than JWD.
Well, that bit isn't fair, since JWD has only done the ranking one month. I am sure that if he does it next month, he will also revise some of the shakier placements.
well yeah, ur right but since he only did one month, I can only judge him by that
I think you totally missed qrs's point (a good one).
I think I got it...well he wanted to say that IF u would do the next PR, u wouldn`t be so biased , at least that's what I think he wanted to say ^^
Interesting rating ... I've been somewhat distant from the Starcraft scene for a while and seeing SKT rip up the proleagues is quite fascinating. Well done on the PR, gives me a good place to start while going over recent games.
On May 21 2009 02:56 HaXxorIzed wrote: Interesting rating ... I've been somewhat distant from the Starcraft scene for a while and seeing SKT rip up the proleagues is quite fascinating. Well done on the PR, gives me a good place to start while going over recent games.
The only thing wrong with this rank was Jaedong-Zero. And Calm should have replaced thezerg, but that's just me. And both of those, by JWD's logic, are (almost?) justifiable. Compared to some of the silliness that's been on PR, I'm seriously amused by the almost 500 posts.
On May 20 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote: FS's were subjective too. Not placing Leta anywhere in the rank (choosing Nada instead), putting by.hero over skyhigh despite skyhigh's reverse all-kill of Oz is not exactly objective.
I'll say it again. Both FS and JWD have some shaky placements. JWD just gets more flak because he's new and not as big a name.
FS's PR may some shaky placements, but he quickly forgets it the next month. He is way more objective than JWD. And FS doesn`t have a bias towards a specific team, and put as many players from that team in the PR.
also twotoneterran's post is valid. He may be a little aggressive but he's got some pretty good arguments for his opinions.
JWD has done one PR. Let's wait until next month to see if he tends to favor certain teams etc.
On May 22 2009 11:07 Kuja900 wrote: This PR just seems like it was designed to encourage conflict amongst the audience more so than to actually rank players.
If my objective was actually "to encourage conflict", don't you think I could have done a better job? Screw Jaedong at 4, let's kick his ass down to CBNC!!
On May 22 2009 11:07 Kuja900 wrote: This PR just seems like it was designed to encourage conflict amongst the audience more so than to actually rank players.
If my objective was actually "to encourage conflict", don't you think I could have done a better job? Screw Jaedong at 4, let's kick his ass down to CBNC!!
No, than ppl wouldnt even take it in serious, but this way everybody (including me) tried to prove the obvious fact that JD>>>Zero in every regards expect maybe the TLPD page outlook. This alone provided ~400 comments (ok let's not exclude the Kespa joke), a PR writer should be glad. The previous PR had ~200 comments by the time this one was supoused to come out, and it had bad and arguable placements. So be proud, ppl at least take you in serious and many of them (includng me) believe you can do an even better job with the next PR (i dont mean place JD on a stupid place again to have discussion topic, but to be more accurate or stabilize your way of rating beforhead as Mani did)
PS: Also as it was said one million times, PR on the first 3 days of the month is the way to go, no need to wait one month after the previous one.
PS: Also as it was said one million times, PR on the first 3 days of the month is the way to go, no need to wait one month after the previous one.
Interestingly enough, if the PR had come out on time, Zero over JD would have been a ton more valid, as JD was playing sloppy and Zero was on a tear... by the time it was actually published, things had evened out, Zero was dropping games again and JD wasn't.
PS: Also as it was said one million times, PR on the first 3 days of the month is the way to go, no need to wait one month after the previous one.
Interestingly enough, if the PR had come out on time, Zero over JD would have been a ton more valid, as JD was playing sloppy and Zero was on a tear... by the time it was actually published, things had evened out, Zero was dropping games again and JD wasn't.
Thats why you have to wait more games to determine if its just a little streak or if the new player is actually getting really good.
I'd also like the PR to come out early in the month instead of in the middle and then keep it that way. There's really no reason to get it out the 15th etc.
New KeSPA and PR rank at the same time would be awesome.
the PR is very well done. JD should be 2 or 3 and I miss Horang2 (untested vs Z but good vT and brilliant vP) in the CNBC, but the rest is absolutely fine (it might be only my personal opinion, that skyhigh > Leta). Also the Kespa gag was nice and the reasoning is comprehensible.
So grats and thanks to JWD for doing a very good job!
That would be an interesting feature. A short discussion at the end of the month seeing how predictive the old PR was. I don't see many places do that.
Thanks Polar_Bear, you made a very intelligent post.
On May 23 2009 06:56 Pooshlmer wrote: That would be an interesting feature. A short discussion at the end of the month seeing how predictive the old PR was. I don't see many places do that.
I think this would be a good idea, if the point of the PR was to predict next month's big players. However, if I do write another PR I promise a) to include a little blurb on how last month's big risers fared (if they're not already covered in the rank or CBNC) and (a point that has been raised by many posters in this thread) b) to try to push the PR's publication date closer to the 1st of the month.
I don't like the idea of circumcising this month so it's instantly back on schedule. Maybe bring it back 5 days per PR -- treat every month like Februrary for the summer!
On May 23 2009 10:26 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't like the idea of circumcising this month so it's instantly back on schedule. Maybe bring it back 5 days per PR -- treat every month like Februrary for the summer!
I agree, this is the plan I suggested a few pages back.
On May 23 2009 10:26 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't like the idea of circumcising this month so it's instantly back on schedule. Maybe bring it back 5 days per PR -- treat every month like Februrary for the summer!
I agree, this is the plan I suggested a few pages back.
Great JWD. I'd rather go cold turkey here, "circumcising" one powerrank doesn't really matter in the long run, but I'm fine with whatever.
I was under the impression that spoilers were fine in the Power Rank; how else are you supposed to rank the players on their play if you don't even know what it is.
Well this was super recent stuff that people who didn't catch the live games wouldn't know. Even past PR articles have had spoiler warnings if it went up before the vods.
While I agree that people shouldn't spoil recent games I also think it's pretty stupid to lurk around at a starcraft progaming news site if you don't want any games spoiled.
this is an issue that was discussed maybe one million times since i check the PR threads, and it was said that if you do not want to get spoiled do not visit this thread till you watch the games you want. But it is recommended to use spoiler tags if you speak about a match that has no VOD released yet...
Well, KTF SKT was just played a few hours ago. It might be the case some people didn't have a chance to watch the match or vods. So for discussing these games spoiler tag can't hurt.
In general, i games were played some time ago, sure, no spoiler is needed.
On May 23 2009 18:15 Phradamon wrote: I believe next PR should have Violet, hes on 8 game streak, wining against Bisu, the no1 and others...
Edit KTF fanboyism, dont mind me, im just happy KTF mopped the floor with SKT
I'm an SKT1 fan and I wouldn't be so quick to disagree with you. Bisu dropped the ball in a few instances in that game (obs/defense at 3rd, 3 reavers walking to battle, 3:1 reaver loss), but that doesn't mean that Violet's play wasn't great, and the streak also makes me think he is a candidate for the PR.
Bisu's PvP just does not impress me, he played like this for the last couple games and he pulled out the win when i thought he's lost. I'm not surprised he lost one after all.
On May 24 2009 14:34 Geo.Rion wrote: Bisu's PvP just does not impress me, he played like this for the last couple games and he pulled out the win when i thought he's lost. I'm not surprised he lost one after all.
Well being like 90% in the matchup since 2009 has got to count for something
On May 24 2009 14:34 Geo.Rion wrote: Bisu's PvP just does not impress me, he played like this for the last couple games and he pulled out the win when i thought he's lost. I'm not surprised he lost one after all.
Well being like 90% in the matchup since 2009 has got to count for something
Trying so hard to be Jaedong. If it got him 2 OSLs why can't it get Bisu one!
On May 24 2009 15:50 Avidkeystamper wrote: Wow, just look at Violet's gamelist. All losses to all wins.
Jangbi-esque. He just seemed to click and started winning everywhere.
On May 24 2009 14:34 Geo.Rion wrote: Bisu's PvP just does not impress me, he played like this for the last couple games and he pulled out the win when i thought he's lost. I'm not surprised he lost one after all.
Well being like 90% in the matchup since 2009 has got to count for something
absolutely, nobody has as good records as him, but his play wasnt that dominant lately as you'd expect from one who has a stellar stat like this
On May 24 2009 04:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: But yeah Violet is awesome and I'd love to see him get a low spot on the PR. Maybe an even higher spot if you want to go the Zero route.
On May 24 2009 04:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: But yeah Violet is awesome and I'd love to see him get a low spot on the PR. Maybe an even higher spot if you want to go the Zero route.
please no violet over jd in next pr, ty ^^
Jaedong dropped one game in a series and is only 8-2, Violet is on a streak, obviously violet will be ranked higher.
On May 24 2009 04:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: But yeah Violet is awesome and I'd love to see him get a low spot on the PR. Maybe an even higher spot if you want to go the Zero route.
please no violet over jd in next pr, ty ^^
actually, wouldn't it be over bisu with something like new best protoss???????
On May 24 2009 04:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: But yeah Violet is awesome and I'd love to see him get a low spot on the PR. Maybe an even higher spot if you want to go the Zero route.
please no violet over jd in next pr, ty ^^
actually, wouldn't it be over bisu with something like new best protoss???????
It'll probably be Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, Effort, Leta, Skyhigh, Flash and some nobodies who fill out the 8-10, Violet probably fitting in somewhere even though his monster streak is more impressive than Zero's when Zero took third. I doubt Zero will get back on the list after his abysmal last few games. Stork hasn't done enough to get back on the list, but maybe Jangbi who's back on a winning streak.
Jaedong should be # 1 or 2 , he shouldn't have been moved to 4th in the first place . Also Kespa and TheZerg should be removed and Stork and JangBi in . Lower Zero he is far from being even the second best zerg . In my point of view the next PR should look something like this :
CBNC : kwanro / zero / Violet / Calm /great / Yellow[arnc] / Horang2 some other players i'm not aware of their performance .
Although if i was doing the PR i would rate Effort and Skyhigh higher , because they are absolute ballers , being in CJ and all , also effort being the second best all around zerg after Jaedong MU wise ( sorry Zero you are inconsistant as hell and pretty much suck from time to time ) and Skyhigh in the top # 4 terrans and could be ranked higher then Flash/Leta/Fantasy on diffrent occasions . I mean the way he is being handling cheeses is pretty impressive and the other 3 terrans could struggle deeling with them . Also his clever and aggresive play makes some good opponents like Kal and Best look like complete newbys in front of him .
In all honestly Flash lost only to Stork and JangBi who are the best PvTers when they play like they want to . He played pretty good in those games despite being a "little" greedy in the first game against Stork , but the map outsider i think you either have to do same crazy build or play a macro war . I think Flash has the right idea of how to play on that map macro wise , but needs to balance the factory/CC production a bit . That and the fact that he beat Fantasy in their recent encounter , could swing Flash back to # 3 if possible . The gap between the #3 and #7 on my list is so close right now that i wouldn't be surprised if i see anyone of them being as high as the # 3 spot can be given in the actual PR .
Stork and Jangbi are both looking like they are recovering, both are on winning streaks. If they do make it on the next power rank, I think they should be really low, like maybe Stork at #10 or something. I'm not entirely convinced they have broken their slump.
I think Jaedong should be 1st. He and Bisu only lost 2 games out of 10+ and jaedong just came from winning the OSL and one of his loss was in a Bo3 where he won... Haven't watched all bisus games yet though...
On May 27 2009 21:06 puLs.ReADy wrote: putting jaedong on 4th and zero before him is more than ridiculous.
This is what happens when you want to receive credit for a landmark change in the PR (Putting Jaedong as not the first zerg in the PR since whatever date)
On May 27 2009 21:06 puLs.ReADy wrote: putting jaedong on 4th and zero before him is more than ridiculous.
This is what happens when you want to receive credit for a landmark change in the PR (Putting Jaedong as not the first zerg in the PR since whatever date)
Yep, definitely a ploy to make myself universally loved. Just read through this thread to see how popular ranking Jaedong below ZerO made me! People can't get enough!! "Praise" is absoutely the word I would use to characterize the response to this PR.
On May 27 2009 21:06 puLs.ReADy wrote: putting jaedong on 4th and zero before him is more than ridiculous.
This is what happens when you want to receive credit for a landmark change in the PR (Putting Jaedong as not the first zerg in the PR since whatever date)
On May 27 2009 21:06 puLs.ReADy wrote: putting jaedong on 4th and zero before him is more than ridiculous.
This is what happens when you want to receive credit for a landmark change in the PR (Putting Jaedong as not the first zerg in the PR since whatever date)
On May 27 2009 21:06 puLs.ReADy wrote: putting jaedong on 4th and zero before him is more than ridiculous.
This is what happens when you want to receive credit for a landmark change in the PR (Putting Jaedong as not the first zerg in the PR since whatever date)
On May 27 2009 21:06 puLs.ReADy wrote: putting jaedong on 4th and zero before him is more than ridiculous.
This is what happens when you want to receive credit for a landmark change in the PR (Putting Jaedong as not the first zerg in the PR since whatever date)
Yep, definitely a ploy to make myself universally loved. Just read through this thread to see how popular ranking Jaedong below ZerO made me! People can't get enough!! "Praise" is absoutely the word I would use to characterize the response to this PR.
On May 15 2009 13:48 JWD wrote: OK, let me try to address what appear to be the major complaints thus far:
1) "JD isn't high enough / JD should be below ZerO"
I think this issue is mostly one of interpretation of what the Power Rank means, precisely. I wrote this Power Rank as a ranking of the last month's most powerful gamers, and that is all. Obviously hypothesizing about who could beat who is a useful check for deciding where to rank players, but I don't think it should be the prime determinant of rank - performance over the last month of SC play should come first (that means "JD won the OSL" isn't so valid!).
And in this area, I think ZerO, Bisu, and Fantasy are all just a cut above Jaedong. Plexa, I don't see how you can be so sure JD would beat Fantasy, for example, on "any given day of the week" considering they are 3-3 in recent meetings and Fantasy was especially impressive in their most recent. And yes JD's losses have been few and far between (and he definitely picked up his play towards the end of this PR period) but ZerO has an even better record while facing a decidedly more difficult set of opponents (Calm, Luxury, Kal3x, Yarnc, Leta, Bisu). Another key point that I think elevates ZerO above JD for this month is that he's beginning to rival Jaedong in ZvZ skill as well (what big Zerg didn't ZerO thrash over the past month?? Only JD) - he simply had a better month in terms of ZvZ play.
Another aspect of JD's play to consider is performance in clutch matches for OZ: his losses to Fantasy and Movie in PL weren't just uncharacteristic, they probably cost Hwaseung its matches against T1 and CJ - the two teams with which OZ is really competing at the top of the PL rankings right now. Bisu, Fantasy, and ZerO have, for the most part, been rock solid in their biggest PL matches (ZerO's fresh loss to Leta in the ace of Hite-WJ comes to mind, but remember he beat Yarnc earlier in the match to give WJ a shot at the 5set in the first place).
2) Calm missing from CBNC
Actually, this is my bad. Calm definitely deserves to be in CBNC. I had this eerie feeling I was forgetting someone, and he's it for sure. However, I did evaluate Calm for the 10-spot and found he came up short... (read on!!)
3) Thezerg in 10th
When Power Ranking, wins and losses shouldn't all be given equal weight - even if they're between the same players. Much has to do with the context or significance of those wins: are they in high-pressure situations? Are they contributing to some crucial trend in SC right now - like a new strategy's emergence, a SL title run, or a great PL streak?
The primary reason I gave Thezerg the nod over a slew of other players with admittedly similar records is that his recent performance reflects a major turnaround not only in his individual skill, but the strength of his entire team. T1's remarkable dominance in R4 of PL (no this is not blind fandom, I mean for fuck's sake SK Telecom T1 is in SECOND PLACE in Fantasy PL at the moment) would simply not have been possible without Thezerg, and that means that his wins over the past month mean just that much more than those of say, Calm or by.great.
by.great does deserve credit for taking out Bisu and free with his innovative strat on Neo Medusa, but check out his other recent opponents: they're all powderpuffs. Not to mention great is sitting on a 3-game losing streak and he dropped out of GOM to ZergBong. ZergBong!!
Calm has a great record over the past month and he does deserve props for being alive in MST (though that may only be because his group isn't complete yet), but he's faced a similarly weak host of opponents. Young2x, RorO, Anytime, MVP, oDin, go.go2x, Tempest?? These are not players we should be impressed to see Calm beat. The nail in Calm's coffin for this PR was his absolutely pathetic performance against Bisu in MST...damn was that sad to watch.
Thezerg, on the other hand, has dealt with JangBi, HiyA, GoRush (yeah, GoRush is decent these days, especially in ZvZ on Battle Royal), and, most significantly in my mind, gave Leta a real series in the OSL Ro36. Yes he ended up getting embarrassed by wraith play, but do you honestly think Calm or by.great would have even taken a game from Leta? I'm a skeptic.
you talk as if calm vs leta would be a 2-0 pummeling, but like you said for casy, you can't predict or give credit to certain players before the game is played. your logic is horrendous, and just because bisu/fantasy are good doesn't equate to failzergs status going up. calm > thezerg, just an insult to PR adding failzerg to the rankings above more qualified players. at least when fakesteve adds sea, he is actually A GOOD PLAYER.
On May 26 2009 18:50 raga4ka wrote: 1.Jaedong/Bisu 2. 3.Flash/Leta/Fantasy 4. 5. 6.Effort 7.Skyhigh 8.Stork 9.JangBi 10.Kwanro/Calm maybe
Yeah I agree, something along those lines would be cool.
Not putting too much thought into it I would probably go:
1.Jaedong - 10-1 this month; the game he lost didn't even matter as he came back 2-1. 2.Bisu - 7-1 this month; losing the mirror match to Violet drops him just below JD imo. 3.Effort - A whopping 14-2 this month, only losing to Bisu and Yarnc. Including a dominating 2-0, 2-0 in his OSL campaign. Since his disappointing winners league performances; this dude is on a rich vein of form. 4. Flash - Lots of tough games this month, he did beat Fantasy and Skyhigh this month so I would struggle to place him lower. 5. Leta - 7-3 this week. Recently he looks like he's got some of his confidence back. 6. Skyhigh - 7.Kwanro - The notion of Kwanrolled! appears in many recent threads. Dominated in individual leagues this month. Gom... check, OSL...check, MSL...check Teach them well, Savior does. 8.Fantasy - losses to calm, hogil and pure unfortunately. 9.JangBi - This master of lightning probably deserves to be higher.. but when you lose mirror games to Jaehoon and YoonJoong it's hard to make a case. 10.Stork/Iris/TheZerg
Edit: Dam I forgot about Zero, he slots in somewhere.
I wouldn't even place thezerg in CBNC for next month. I wouldn't have placed him in CBNC this month either but thats just me... he's a "bad" zergplayer..
Bisu lost to Violet, Jaedong lost to jjonga. I mean, who the hell is jjonga, and how did he beat Jaedong on Medusa (a Z>P map)? Advantage Bisu, IMO.
Other than that, they are more or less equal. The only other real difference between the two, is Jaedong's team is playing in GOM, and Bisu's team isn't.
On May 31 2009 14:26 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu should be #1, Jaedong #2.
Bisu lost to Violet, Jaedong lost to jjonga. I mean, who the hell is jjonga, and how did he beat Jaedong on Medusa (a Z>P map)? Advantage Bisu, IMO.
Other than that, they are more or less equal. The only other real difference between the two, is Jaedong's team is playing in GOM, and Bisu's team isn't.
Medusa Zerg>Toss map? Since when? Count the total number of wins. The factor that made Medusa "hard" (LOL) for protoss was the proxy hatch option, now it is removed. It's 47-46 total, including the proxy hatch wins....
I said this already, JD dropping the first game in a series wont make me even consider he's slipping, even if the player he lost to is a noname. It had zero impact on the future. While Bisu's loss meant SKT lost to thier nemesis. OFC Violet >> Jjonga but still, this doesnt mean anything, as long as JD beat Jjonga after all. Ofc that's just me. Placing Bisu first is reasonable.
and btw why is everyone putting FLash 3rd/4th? Because he won 2 TvTs?
On May 31 2009 14:26 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu should be #1, Jaedong #2.
Bisu lost to Violet, Jaedong lost to jjonga. I mean, who the hell is jjonga, and how did he beat Jaedong on Medusa (a Z>P map)? Advantage Bisu, IMO.
Other than that, they are more or less equal. The only other real difference between the two, is Jaedong's team is playing in GOM, and Bisu's team isn't.
Medusa Zerg>Toss map? Since when? Count the total number of wins. The factor that made Medusa "hard" (LOL) for protoss was the proxy hatch option, now it is removed. It's 47-46 total, including the proxy hatch wins....
I said this already, JD dropping the first game in a series wont make me even consider he's slipping, even if the player he lost to is a noname. It had zero impact on the future. While Bisu's loss meant SKT lost to thier nemesis. OFC Violet >> Jjonga but still, this doesnt mean anything, as long as JD beat Jjonga after all. Ofc that's just me. Placing Bisu first is reasonable.
and btw why is everyone putting FLash 3rd/4th? Because he won 2 TvTs?
Medusa is considered a Z>P map because of the breaking down the back door->doom drop strategy, that is very hard to stop. Proxy-hatch shit is imba too, but not the main reason.
I also think dismissing Jaedong's loss, because he ended up winning the series, is a flawed way of looking at things, but I've already talked alot about that earlier in this thread anyway (with Jaedong dropping a game in a previous series lolol). A loss is a loss, and losing to jjonga on Medusa is a big "WTF" in my eyes when you are Jaedong.
Also note I didn't say Jaedong was slumping, or slipping. Saying he should go from #4 to a close #2 is saying that I think he is still one of the best in the world, and is playing like it. Just that I think Bisu is playing slightly better.
On May 31 2009 14:26 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu should be #1, Jaedong #2.
Bisu lost to Violet, Jaedong lost to jjonga. I mean, who the hell is jjonga, and how did he beat Jaedong on Medusa (a Z>P map)? Advantage Bisu, IMO.
Other than that, they are more or less equal. The only other real difference between the two, is Jaedong's team is playing in GOM, and Bisu's team isn't.
Medusa Zerg>Toss map? Since when? Count the total number of wins. The factor that made Medusa "hard" (LOL) for protoss was the proxy hatch option, now it is removed. It's 47-46 total, including the proxy hatch wins....
I said this already, JD dropping the first game in a series wont make me even consider he's slipping, even if the player he lost to is a noname. It had zero impact on the future. While Bisu's loss meant SKT lost to thier nemesis. OFC Violet >> Jjonga but still, this doesnt mean anything, as long as JD beat Jjonga after all. Ofc that's just me. Placing Bisu first is reasonable.
and btw why is everyone putting FLash 3rd/4th? Because he won 2 TvTs?
Medusa is considered a Z>P map because of the breaking down the back door->doom drop strategy, that is very hard to stop. Proxy-hatch shit is imba too, but not the main reason.
I also think dismissing Jaedong's loss, because he ended up winning the series, is a flawed way of looking at things, but I've already talked alot about that earlier in this thread anyway (with Jaedong dropping a game in a previous series lolol). A loss is a loss, and losing to jjonga on Medusa is a big "WTF" in my eyes when you are Jaedong.
Also note I didn't say Jaedong was slumping, or slipping. Saying he should go from #4 to a close #2 is saying that I think he is still one of the best in the world, and is playing like it. Just that I think Bisu is playing slightly better.
PvZ wise Medusa and Neo Medusa are the SAME, only deviation being the proxy hatchery option which now IS REMOWED. artosis spoke about how insignificant losing one game in a series is, and style depndent also, listen that, i wont try to explain anything, but to come up with the Neo Medusa stat and trying to look smart by giving map-analysis is just pathetic. It's like you take the first 30 games from destination (say at that point Destination was updated to Neo destination and the mapmakers changed sg which concerns only TvP) and say, well Destination is fucking imba 64% for toss, because they can easely turtle and storm the bridges, and hydra breaks are so hard... And if you look on the Destination all-time stat is 50%, perfectly balanced. There are periods when one race is owning the other for a while, than they figure out sg and start to own and so on and so fort. You dont have to blame the map always
On May 31 2009 14:26 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu should be #1, Jaedong #2.
Bisu lost to Violet, Jaedong lost to jjonga. I mean, who the hell is jjonga, and how did he beat Jaedong on Medusa (a Z>P map)? Advantage Bisu, IMO.
Other than that, they are more or less equal. The only other real difference between the two, is Jaedong's team is playing in GOM, and Bisu's team isn't.
Medusa Zerg>Toss map? Since when? Count the total number of wins. The factor that made Medusa "hard" (LOL) for protoss was the proxy hatch option, now it is removed. It's 47-46 total, including the proxy hatch wins....
I said this already, JD dropping the first game in a series wont make me even consider he's slipping, even if the player he lost to is a noname. It had zero impact on the future. While Bisu's loss meant SKT lost to thier nemesis. OFC Violet >> Jjonga but still, this doesnt mean anything, as long as JD beat Jjonga after all. Ofc that's just me. Placing Bisu first is reasonable.
and btw why is everyone putting FLash 3rd/4th? Because he won 2 TvTs?
Medusa is considered a Z>P map because of the breaking down the back door->doom drop strategy, that is very hard to stop. Proxy-hatch shit is imba too, but not the main reason.
I also think dismissing Jaedong's loss, because he ended up winning the series, is a flawed way of looking at things, but I've already talked alot about that earlier in this thread anyway (with Jaedong dropping a game in a previous series lolol). A loss is a loss, and losing to jjonga on Medusa is a big "WTF" in my eyes when you are Jaedong.
Also note I didn't say Jaedong was slumping, or slipping. Saying he should go from #4 to a close #2 is saying that I think he is still one of the best in the world, and is playing like it. Just that I think Bisu is playing slightly better.
PvZ wise Medusa and Neo Medusa are the SAME, only deviation being the proxy hatchery option which now IS REMOWED. artosis spoke about how insignificant losing one game in a series is, and style depndent also, listen that, i wont try to explain anything, but to come up with the Neo Medusa stat and trying to look smart by giving map-analysis is just pathetic. It's like you take the first 30 games from destination (say at that point Destination was updated to Neo destination and the mapmakers changed sg which concerns only TvP) and say, well Destination is fucking imba 64% for toss, because they can easely turtle and storm the bridges, and hydra breaks are so hard... And if you look on the Destination all-time stat is 50%, perfectly balanced. There are periods when one race is owning the other for a while, than they figure out sg and start to own and so on and so fort. You dont have to blame the map always
Wow I can't believe I have to argue about how Medusa is Z>P. Have you watched any recent PvZ on Medusa? Have you read what anyone else thinks of Medusa? I wasn't "trying to look smart", rather I was stating a well accepted fact.
So here is how PvZ on Medusa works out. Firstly, Medusa is a map where you have to Forge FE on. Due to this, Zerg will have early-midgame map control. Zerglings or Lurkers will make quick work of the temples in the middle. By killing the temples, the Zerg opens up a new front against the Protoss. In response to this, the Protoss must build enough cannons at his mineral only to defend against that. And after that, the Zerg doom drops your main. In order to also be safe from this, the main must be cannoned as well. This is the strategy that is currently dominating Protosses right now. Forcing the Protoss it make defense everywhere lets the Zerg take the map, and then win. And it is a fact that Jaedong lost to a no-name Protoss when the metagame of Medusa is Z>P.
Also, what kind of stats are more valid in a talk about the current metagame? Stats from half a year ago when the map first came out, or stats from the past couple of months? Trends in recent history are much more valid.
And who cares if Artosis says losing a game in a series is insignificant. It doesn't change the fact that it happened. Unless you want to live in a magical fairy land, Jaedong lost a game to some no name Protoss on a Z>P map. You can't wish that away no matter how hard you fanboy.
I think Jaedong has the best case for #1, people are comparing the game he dropped in GOM to Bisu vs Violet... and there just isn't any comparison. Bisu got straight up out played in a late-midgame macro/harass PvP... That would be like Jaedong losing a 2 base ZvZ muta war, or a 5 base Flash getting macro rolled in a TvT.
On May 26 2009 18:50 raga4ka wrote: 1.Jaedong/Bisu 2. 3.Flash/Leta/Fantasy 4. 5. 6.Effort 7.Skyhigh 8.Stork 9.JangBi 10.Kwanro/Calm maybe
Yeah I agree, something along those lines would be cool.
Not putting too much thought into it I would probably go:
1.Jaedong - 10-1 this month; the game he lost didn't even matter as he came back 2-1. 2.Bisu - 7-1 this month; losing the mirror match to Violet drops him just below JD imo. 3.Effort - A whopping 14-2 this month, only losing to Bisu and Yarnc. Including a dominating 2-0, 2-0 in his OSL campaign. Since his disappointing winners league performances; this dude is on a rich vein of form. 4. Flash - Lots of tough games this month, he did beat Fantasy and Skyhigh this month so I would struggle to place him lower. 5. Leta - 7-3 this week. Recently he looks like he's got some of his confidence back. 6. Skyhigh - 7.Kwanro - The notion of Kwanrolled! appears in many recent threads. Dominated in individual leagues this month. Gom... check, OSL...check, MSL...check Teach them well, Savior does. 8.Fantasy - losses to calm, hogil and pure unfortunately. 9.JangBi - This master of lightning probably deserves to be higher.. but when you lose mirror games to Jaehoon and YoonJoong it's hard to make a case. 10.Stork/Iris/TheZerg
Edit: Dam I forgot about Zero, he slots in somewhere.
Yeah , after seeing Effort's spectacular games i too think he should be # 3 . After the top 3 it can be shuffled almost anyway . I would rather have some solid player as # 10 thank you , then TheZerg .... Maybe Violet , but i need to see his other MU's , PvP seems fine . Stork and JangBi should be in the low ranks of the PR and maybe Calm .
Guys stop argueing about Jaedong and map imbalance on medusa . Jaedong's game had no effect on anything he might as well given it out of pity or something if he is confident that he will win the next 2 games . On Medusa the better player wins if you look at most of the games and not just the numbers on it you can see that the better player with the better strategy used won them the game . And then there are games where Kal scouts 2 hat hidras and epic fails , and Much doesn't scout the hidra all - in and rapes the zerg anyway .... You can't blame map imbalance , because zerg can use proxy hat on medusa , blame the protoss for not adapting well enough or not seeing it coming . And proxy hat is a well calculated strategy that only few players have used that have been practising a lot to use it .
Still its a coin toss between Jaedong and Bisu for the first place . I would put Jaedong number # 1 this month just for the fact that last month he was lowered unreasonably to fourth place where his "slump" of losing 3 games in PL 1 of which was a ZvZ and 1 was a clever play used by.Movie , whom he demolished after in Gom . Not to mention he won the OSL finals in the same month with an impressive 3 - 2 comeback to say the least (second place was reasonable with Bisu's performance , but Fantasy especially after OSL finals and Zero were not .)
On May 31 2009 14:26 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu should be #1, Jaedong #2.
Bisu lost to Violet, Jaedong lost to jjonga. I mean, who the hell is jjonga, and how did he beat Jaedong on Medusa (a Z>P map)? Advantage Bisu, IMO.
Other than that, they are more or less equal. The only other real difference between the two, is Jaedong's team is playing in GOM, and Bisu's team isn't.
Medusa Zerg>Toss map? Since when? Count the total number of wins. The factor that made Medusa "hard" (LOL) for protoss was the proxy hatch option, now it is removed. It's 47-46 total, including the proxy hatch wins....
I said this already, JD dropping the first game in a series wont make me even consider he's slipping, even if the player he lost to is a noname. It had zero impact on the future. While Bisu's loss meant SKT lost to thier nemesis. OFC Violet >> Jjonga but still, this doesnt mean anything, as long as JD beat Jjonga after all. Ofc that's just me. Placing Bisu first is reasonable.
and btw why is everyone putting FLash 3rd/4th? Because he won 2 TvTs?
Medusa is considered a Z>P map because of the breaking down the back door->doom drop strategy, that is very hard to stop. Proxy-hatch shit is imba too, but not the main reason.
I also think dismissing Jaedong's loss, because he ended up winning the series, is a flawed way of looking at things, but I've already talked alot about that earlier in this thread anyway (with Jaedong dropping a game in a previous series lolol). A loss is a loss, and losing to jjonga on Medusa is a big "WTF" in my eyes when you are Jaedong.
Also note I didn't say Jaedong was slumping, or slipping. Saying he should go from #4 to a close #2 is saying that I think he is still one of the best in the world, and is playing like it. Just that I think Bisu is playing slightly better.
PvZ wise Medusa and Neo Medusa are the SAME, only deviation being the proxy hatchery option which now IS REMOWED. artosis spoke about how insignificant losing one game in a series is, and style depndent also, listen that, i wont try to explain anything, but to come up with the Neo Medusa stat and trying to look smart by giving map-analysis is just pathetic. It's like you take the first 30 games from destination (say at that point Destination was updated to Neo destination and the mapmakers changed sg which concerns only TvP) and say, well Destination is fucking imba 64% for toss, because they can easely turtle and storm the bridges, and hydra breaks are so hard... And if you look on the Destination all-time stat is 50%, perfectly balanced. There are periods when one race is owning the other for a while, than they figure out sg and start to own and so on and so fort. You dont have to blame the map always
Wow I can't believe I have to argue about how Medusa is Z>P. Have you watched any recent PvZ on Medusa? Have you read what anyone else thinks of Medusa? I wasn't "trying to look smart", rather I was stating a well accepted fact.
So here is how PvZ on Medusa works out. Firstly, Medusa is a map where you have to Forge FE on. Due to this, Zerg will have early-midgame map control. Zerglings or Lurkers will make quick work of the temples in the middle. By killing the temples, the Zerg opens up a new front against the Protoss. In response to this, the Protoss must build enough cannons at his mineral only to defend against that. And after that, the Zerg doom drops your main. In order to also be safe from this, the main must be cannoned as well. This is the strategy that is currently dominating Protosses right now. Forcing the Protoss it make defense everywhere lets the Zerg take the map, and then win. And it is a fact that Jaedong lost to a no-name Protoss when the metagame of Medusa is Z>P.
Also, what kind of stats are more valid in a talk about the current metagame? Stats from half a year ago when the map first came out, or stats from the past couple of months? Trends in recent history are much more valid.
And who cares if Artosis says losing a game in a series is insignificant. It doesn't change the fact that it happened. Unless you want to live in a magical fairy land, Jaedong lost a game to some no name Protoss on a Z>P map. You can't wish that away no matter how hard you fanboy.
I just cannot belive my eyes. You are making a battle report of a game where a Z owned a P with a popular strtat and you totally ignore the rest of the games, and the possible failure of the build! If you count Bisu out (and i dont get why would you do that) it's still sg like 44-37(proxy hatch wins included). This still isnt Z>P, it's a small advantage. And you say recent games are more important. Well its 5-5 in the last 10 + Show Spoiler +
6-4 for toss actually
(i take last 10 because that's the standard ammount of games to look at). And you still ignore my point about Medusa being the same PvZ wise as Neo Medusa (minus the alrady removed prox hatch option). There are strats that work well on the map, so what? Should i make a battle report about a game when a standard toss rapes a standard zerg? that will be a point?
EDIT:
On May 31 2009 16:39 Avidkeystamper wrote: Obviously, then it's really favored against protoss. Bisu's better record on that map compared to others can only mean it's zerg favored.
I'm explaining to you why Z>P on Medusa (since obviously, you don't watch PvZ on Medusa). If you can't understand it, sounds like a personal problem to me.
There are strats that work well on the map. It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you. When Zergs are close to having twice as many wins as Protoss on a map, you know something is up.
@raga4ka: I haven't been blaming ZvP imba on Proxy hatch lol. Proxy hatch was only used a few times, and yet Neo Medusa's balance is still 60+% in favor of zergs.
On May 31 2009 16:39 Avidkeystamper wrote: Obviously, then it's really favored against protoss. Bisu's better record on that map compared to others can only mean it's zerg favored.
I've not said its favored against toss, but Bisu's record on this map doesnt prove its friendly either. He just figured it out. KTY is showing its not impossible to win there ofc, but for the mid class zerg players (like Calm for example) is relatively easy to put on quite good results even against pvz specialist like Kal and free
Violet is crazy. 10 game streak against all races, with only a hiccup thanks to God's Garden PvZ and still winning that series. Shoe in for atleast a low spot.
On May 31 2009 18:52 Sentenal wrote: I'm explaining to you why Z>P on Medusa (since obviously, you don't watch PvZ on Medusa). If you can't understand it, sounds like a personal problem to me.
There are strats that work well on the map. It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you. When Zergs are close to having twice as many wins as Protoss on a map, you know something is up.
@raga4ka: I haven't been blaming ZvP imba on Proxy hatch lol. Proxy hatch was only used a few times, and yet Neo Medusa's balance is still 60+% in favor of zergs.
WAAAAAAAAAA i kill myself! Close to having twice as many wins? WAAA!! 47-46 ffs, if you dont accept this stat give me one argument that ZvP is easier on Neo Medusa than on Medusa. (for the 6th time, prox hatch is removed)
I just explode how stupid what you just wrote is "It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you"
Whta the hell? Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time? Why is the map 6-4 in favor of toss in the last 10 games, and why is the map almost perfectly balanced if we count every played game?? It's just sooo illogical what you say it blows my mind.
Insiginificant, not an argument which concerns the PR, just a personal thought of mine which belongs to this:+ Show Spoiler +
You remind me of a guy on another forum. He said sg like 6 goons, 2 archons, 4 zelas, 2 dt's is an unbreakabel protoss ball. now that guy played probably only single player, you watch pro scene. Your knowledge and analyse about the pro scene is as accurate as his about the game.
EDIT2: Update: Now itt's 7-3 n the last 10, and this last game was played in a similar fashion you described, + a proxy hatch (it seems Gom did not update the Neo M. ) EDIT: oh, and i watch almost every ZVP on Medusa, and one thing i notice is that the strat described by you isn't the only one, and zergs even if they do, lose sometimes. Quite strange "given the fact" that
On May 31 2009 18:52 Sentenal wrote: Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you.
On May 31 2009 16:39 Avidkeystamper wrote: Obviously, then it's really favored against protoss. Bisu's better record on that map compared to others can only mean it's zerg favored.
I've not said its favored against toss, but Bisu's record on this map doesnt prove its friendly either. He just figured it out. KTY is showing its not impossible to win there ofc, but for the mid class zerg players (like Calm for example) is relatively easy to put on quite good results even against pvz specialist like Kal and free
they both blow recently, or rather Kal is inconsistent as ever, sometimes plays well sometimes shitty, Free is out of his waters clearly, not only in PvZ. And Calm is the most efective player of the 6th ranked STX so...
On May 31 2009 18:52 Sentenal wrote: I'm explaining to you why Z>P on Medusa (since obviously, you don't watch PvZ on Medusa). If you can't understand it, sounds like a personal problem to me.
There are strats that work well on the map. It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you. When Zergs are close to having twice as many wins as Protoss on a map, you know something is up.
@raga4ka: I haven't been blaming ZvP imba on Proxy hatch lol. Proxy hatch was only used a few times, and yet Neo Medusa's balance is still 60+% in favor of zergs.
WAAAAAAAAAA i kill myself! Close to having twice as many wins? WAAA!! 47-46 ffs, if you dont accept this stat give me one argument that ZvP is easier on Neo Medusa than on Medusa. (for the 6th time, prox hatch is removed)
I just explode how stupid what you just wrote is "It just so happens that Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you"
Whta the hell? Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time? Why is the map 6-4 in favor of toss in the last 10 games, and why is the map almost perfectly balanced if we count every played game?? It's just sooo illogical what you say it blows my mind.
Insiginificant, not an argument which concerns the PR, just a personal thought of mine which belongs to this:+ Show Spoiler +
You remind me of a guy on another forum. He said sg like 6 goons, 2 archons, 4 zelas, 2 dt's is an unbreakabel protoss ball. now that guy played probably only single player, you watch pro scene. Your knowledge and analyse about the pro scene is as accurate as his about the game.
EDIT2: Update: Now itt's 7-3 n the last 10, and this last game was played in a similar fashion you described, + a proxy hatch (it seems Gom did not update the Neo M. ) EDIT: oh, and i watch almost every ZVP on Medusa, and one thing i notice is that the strat described by you isn't the only one, and zergs even if they do, lose sometimes. Quite strange "given the fact" that
On May 31 2009 18:52 Sentenal wrote: Protoss doesn't really have a strat that works well vs the one I detailed for you.
Just FYI, I don't believe 6goons, 2 archons, 4 zeals, and 2 DTs is an unbreakable Protoss ball. No such thing as an Unbreakable Ball. Thanks for the attack though, it means alot to me that I remind you of people. You remind me of an arrogant Jaedong fanboy ^_^
Unfortunately, I haven't seen the last 2 PvZ on Medusa, so I can't really comment about them. Which one did they do the front door/back door pressure into doom drop in? I don't really care about the Proxy hatch one (since I haven't been saying Proxy Hatch is why Z>P on Medusa).
I don't know why Zerg don't do it every game. There are times when Progamers decide to use a Strategy that isn't the main strategy on the map, for whatever reason. Like in PvT on Blue Storm or Katrina, Carriers are the best option for the map, yet sometimes people went for Arbiters. But that doesn't mean Arbiters are somehow a better option on those maps.
The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others.
Did you see Kal's game vs Shine[kal]? Yeah, erm, the only change in Medusa to Neo Medusa didn't even change its balance. Why are we even arguing this again? One game is not an indication of a player's position on the power rank. All their games taken in cumulation is.
Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
On May 31 2009 19:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: Violet is crazy. 10 game streak against all races, with only a hiccup thanks to God's Garden PvZ and still winning that series. Shoe in for atleast a low spot.
On June 01 2009 13:59 Sentenal wrote: The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others.
The map is not and never was Z>P, you say recent stats are more important, I say recent stats are 7-3 for Protoss. You want to suggest that the straregy you described is the best on the map and it's very hard to beat, yet seemingly the progamers think otherwise. Protoss can deal with it, watch games and not only where Zergs win, i dont have anythin else to say. You try to prove that a map imbalanced even though all time stats are even (+1 for toss now) and the recent stats favor Toss also, and your major argument is a build which was used ~10-20 times and worked maybe half of the times...
On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote: Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
Do you think it has relevance? He lost one game which does not matter, Bisu lost a game which does matter. And Jjonga did not beat JD, he took one game and lost the series easely. Bisu's first place can be accepted, but not because Violet is a way better player Jjonga. The loss for Jjonga sounds really bad, but has no relevance actually, while Bisu's loss cost SKT the series against their rivals. There are situations where a loss weights more you know, and situations when nobody (but you) cares if one game did not work out as it should have.
The recent stats are skewed in favor of zerg because of some clutch strategies that caused some upsets that could've *easily* been avoided by shit like observer upgrades and not being retarded. Sorry Protosses, it might be a bit on the Z side thanks to the temples, but no it is not some horrific imbalance.
Also, very recently, every protoss but Bisu has been sucking ass anyhow. Stats are misleading, short term, recent stats are even moreso.
On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote: Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
Not a fanboy (Flash > Jaedong any day!), but Jaedong dropping 1 game in a series has never ever ever ever ever meant anything. Bisu dropping a PvP proleague game that could've very well cost his team the last match of R4? Violet's hot shit right now but I'd definitely say the two are atleast comparable.
Personally I wouldn't put JD over Bisu because Jaedong's done nothing special to oust Bisu and Bisu's done nothing bad (1 game means shit all) enough to drop.
The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea.
If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things.
On June 01 2009 16:18 Sentenal wrote: The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea.
The "best" in this case seems to be, now, ultra heavily defined by pure performance since the last PR.
If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things.
I mean sure in the vein of the last PR where stats reigned supreme, I guess you could weight Jaedong going 2-1 against a relatively unknown dude against him. In almost any other sense though, it means nothing because it's just something Jaedong has almost always done. It's like saying cows moo -- it doesn't make him any less dominant.
On June 01 2009 16:18 Sentenal wrote: The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea.
The "best" in this case seems to be, now, ultra heavily defined by pure performance since the last PR.
If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things.
I mean sure in the vein of the last PR where stats reigned supreme, I guess you could weight Jaedong going 2-1 against a relatively unknown dude against him. In almost any other sense though, it means nothing because it's just something Jaedong has almost always done. It's like saying cows moo -- it doesn't make him any less dominant.
Which is more dominate, shutting someone out 2-0, or winning 2-1?
Jaedong dropping a game to a no-name is not a plus, no matter how you look at it.
To me, every game matters... but taking a loss while going 2-1 in a Bo3 is different than taking a loss in proleague. It just is, I mean selection of builds is going to be different for a series.
For example, lets say that for a selection of 3 build orders there are three percentages we are interested in and we write them as a triple (L%,W%,P%) (stands for lose, win, pwn). The lose percent is the chance of playing 3 games with those builds and and doing worse than 2-1 (so 1-2 or 0-3), W% is the chance of going 2-1 and P% is your chance of going 3-0. Say you have 2 such sets of builds A and B with associated percentages A~(20%, 50%, 30%) and B~(30%, 70%, 10%). For a Bo3 you should pick the builds A because that gives you the best chance of getting out of the bracket, for proleague you would want to pick B because it would give you the most wins for your team over time. You do get situations where different selection of builds differ in these ways... for example Fantasy does better in Leagues than in Proleague, and Flash does better in Proleague than in Leagues.
On the other hand it does not matter because Bisu got pwned much harder than Jaedong.
On June 01 2009 16:18 Sentenal wrote: The Power Rank is about who is currently the best, and who is playing the best, is it not? There might be different ways people try to define what the "best" is, but that's the general idea.
The "best" in this case seems to be, now, ultra heavily defined by pure performance since the last PR.
If you are looking at how people are actually playing, and the skill level they are playing at, every game matters. I don't think Power Ranks should be made just by looking at a tournament bracket. Jaedong eventually did beat that no-name. But the fact that he dropped a game to him does matter in trying to decide who is better, when the difference between Jaedong and Bisu is so razor thin right now. When the large picture doesn't show much of a difference, you have to look at the little things.
I mean sure in the vein of the last PR where stats reigned supreme, I guess you could weight Jaedong going 2-1 against a relatively unknown dude against him. In almost any other sense though, it means nothing because it's just something Jaedong has almost always done. It's like saying cows moo -- it doesn't make him any less dominant.
Which is more dominate, shutting someone out 2-0, or winning 2-1?
Jaedong dropping a game to a no-name is not a plus, no matter how you look at it.
The best part is no one ever said it was a plus. You are doing a wonderful job of shoving words into peoples' mouths.
The point is, Jaedong dropping a game in a series that he still wins is insignificant. A non-issue. Not even worth a passing glance. Sure if you 2-0 everyone everytime it's more 'dominant' but almost ritual 2-1ing everyone means he's still beating everyone. That's the beauty of a series.
Bisu losing a game in his recently Jaedong-esque PvP in proleague (With his team going 1-3 as a result) is much more important, gamewise, even if the player was better (honestly a month ago and most people would've considered Violet no more a threat than Jjonga.)
But that is not enough reason to drop Bisu a rank anyhow.
On June 01 2009 17:38 Sentenal wrote: Which is more dominate, shutting someone out 2-0, or winning 2-1?
Jaedong dropping a game to a no-name is not a plus, no matter how you look at it.
It's not a plus, but I think "Power" is about winning when it matters.
I also think there are long term reasons why Jaedong should be higher than Bisu. I would consider Jaedong the favourite in a BoX against Bisu. They've played a series twice, once in the 08 MSL which Jaedong took 2-0 and more recently the 3-2 thriller at GOM. Jaedong has a notably higher lifetime win rate +4% above Bisu. Plus Jaedong has proven himself more recently (winning the OSL).
Obviously I'm talking about when they're both on top form. Last month Jaedong's play was a bit sloppy after taking the OSL and he deserved to be below Fantasy and Bisu.
I can't believe that you people can sit there and pretend that Jaedong didn't type "gg" against a player he has no business losing against, simply because he won the next two games. It just doesn't make any sense.
Yes everyone has said Jaedong didn't type gg against Jjonga.
God you are dense. It's like, Jaedong was a huge favorite over Fantasy, but he dropped 2 games oh no! Guess he doesn't really deserve an OSL title. It's not that it didn't happen, it's that A) It doesn't matter much B)Jaedong does this all the goddamn time why does this not get through to you? He's got a reputation for it!
No one's denying it happens. Everyone's saying it's not a big deal.
On June 01 2009 18:57 Sentenal wrote: I can't believe that you people can sit there and pretend that Jaedong didn't type "gg" against a player he has no business losing against, simply because he won the next two games. It just doesn't make any sense.
That's because even at his "non-slumping" (90%+ winrate instead of "only" 80%) best, he loses games. Nobody should seriously expect Jaedong to win 100% of his games, even if the ones he drops aren't the ones you'd expect.
edit: misread, what I said still applies but not directly to what you said. JD should have typed gg regardless.
On June 01 2009 15:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Personally I wouldn't put JD over Bisu because Jaedong's done nothing special to oust Bisu and Bisu's done nothing bad (1 game means shit all) enough to drop.
except jaedong didn't do much bad to drop to the rank 4 in the first place. He just won an OSL and keeps dominating. Imo he should be first until he starts playing bad, he faces bisu and loses or bisu wins something.
Losing the first game in a BoX and then winning the rest is not that unusual for jaedong. He has said in interviews that he likes to test his opponents strenghts.
While I agree Jaedong should definitely not have dropped below Zero, his "mini-slump," and Bisu's hot streak was plenty enough for him to drop below Bisu by JWD's logic (RESULTS). Assuming Bisu at 1 and Jaedong below him before you make this PR, I haven't seen anything bad enough from Bisu or great enough from Jaedong to make them swap.
On June 01 2009 20:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: While I agree Jaedong should definitely not have dropped below Zero, his "mini-slump," and Bisu's hot streak was plenty enough for him to drop below Bisu by JWD's logic (RESULTS). Assuming Bisu at 1 and Jaedong below him before you make this PR, I haven't seen anything bad enough from Bisu or great enough from Jaedong to make them swap.
Since when has the PR cared about previous months ranking? There hasn't been any notion of it being "difficult" to displace people in the past (in fact Jaedongs drop to 4th implies the complete opposite).
Whether or not is should be difficult to displace people from the slots, I don't think so. Let's just put people in the slot they deserve.
On June 01 2009 13:59 Sentenal wrote: The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others.
The map is not and never was Z>P, you say recent stats are more important, I say recent stats are 7-3 for Protoss. You want to suggest that the straregy you described is the best on the map and it's very hard to beat, yet seemingly the progamers think otherwise. Protoss can deal with it, watch games and not only where Zergs win, i dont have anythin else to say. You try to prove that a map imbalanced even though all time stats are even (+1 for toss now) and the recent stats favor Toss also, and your major argument is a build which was used ~10-20 times and worked maybe half of the times...
On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote: Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
Do you think it has relevance? He lost one game which does not matter, Bisu lost a game which does matter. And Jjonga did not beat JD, he took one game and lost the series easely. Bisu's first place can be accepted, but not because Violet is a way better player Jjonga. The loss for Jjonga sounds really bad, but has no relevance actually, while Bisu's loss cost SKT the series against their rivals. There are situations where a loss weights more you know, and situations when nobody (but you) cares if one game did not work out as it should have.
And they say Bisu fanboys are bad.... Did you even watch the games? jjonga had Jaedong dead in the water in game 3 before he choked massively and decided to NOT MAKE CANNONS and instead make 2 gateways when he have a contain his opponent HAS to try to break........ Jaedong didnt win that series, jjonga lost it. That loss on Medusa almost threw him out of GOM vs a pretty much unknown player, while you JD fans talk like it was just a little bump in the road and did not matter cuz he cruised through the other games when in fact he should have lost game 3 had jjonga been a more experienced player.
With that said beside that series Jaedong is playing incredibly well and giving him #1 would fair. (but really him and Bisu are pretty much looking equally good, biggest difference have been JD playing more games lately due to being ace and GOM)
i think we shall look back on the power rank in 6 month and notice jaedong dropping to 4th place beneath zero and say wtf???? and than recall the incident and say oh yeah pffff stupid jaedong hasnt lost any bo but to 2 people in almost 2 years 1- to flash (at his prime and thats ok ) 2-to tempest (and thats not ok ) yes sometimes he looses to unknown players but when it matters he wins cant see how loosing the first game and winning the 2 games after make u guys demote him to 4th place what other player can u really say is taking is team all by himself to be # 1 i mean imagine what would happen if jaedong would be in ACE hmmm i cant see them not taking one of the first 4 places unlike zero who has good skills but putting him above jaedong is an insult yes i know the explanation has been given and no need to respond since this comment is just a way to take out my excitement after watching the hite vs oz games peace out go jaedong
On June 02 2009 00:05 barbahaba0 wrote: i think we shall look back on the power rank in 6 month and notice jaedong dropping to 4th place beneath zero and say wtf???? and than recall the incident and say oh yeah pffff stupid jaedong hasnt lost any bo but to 2 people in almost 2 years 1- to flash (at his prime and thats ok ) 2-to tempest (and thats not ok ) yes sometimes he looses to unknown players but when it matters he wins cant see how loosing the first game and winning the 2 games after make u guys demote him to 4th place what other player can u really say is taking is team all by himself to be # 1 i mean imagine what would happen if jaedong would be in ACE hmmm i cant see them not taking one of the first 4 places unlike zero who has good skills but putting him above jaedong is an insult yes i know the explanation has been given and no need to respond since this comment is just a way to take out my excitement after watching the hite vs oz games peace out go jaedong
oops forgot about the forgg incident 3-0 ok lets agree on a year
Yeah game 3 vs jjonga was jjongas loss, cheesy loss serves him right, however we don't know what the outcome would have been had he made 1 more cannon instead of the gateway at home. Maybe jaedong would have delayed his attack or whatever we don't know that.
It's a hard desicion, I just hope the rank will be out soon.
On June 02 2009 01:23 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah game 3 vs jjonga was jjongas loss, cheesy loss serves him right, however we don't know what the outcome would have been had he made 1 more cannon instead of the gateway at home. Maybe jaedong would have delayed his attack or whatever we don't know that.
It's a hard desicion, I just hope the rank will be out soon.
He had JD cancel the first hatchery, he scouted the hydra den so he KNEW there would be no mutas incoming still he makes 1gate way + assimilator and core at home that is simply retarded. All he needed to do to win that game was make more cannons, remember its at a choke also so JD cant very easily break out once he gets 7-8 cannons there regardless how many hydras he makes. Face it he would have lost every time vs a better experienced toss, except maybe Kal who can scout 2hatch hydra breaks and not do anything to defend vs it
On June 02 2009 01:23 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah game 3 vs jjonga was jjongas loss, cheesy loss serves him right, however we don't know what the outcome would have been had he made 1 more cannon instead of the gateway at home. Maybe jaedong would have delayed his attack or whatever we don't know that.
It's a hard desicion, I just hope the rank will be out soon.
He had JD cancel the first hatchery, he scouted the hydra den so he KNEW there would be no mutas incoming still he makes 1gate way + assimilator and core at home that is simply retarded. All he needed to do to win that game was make more cannons, remember its at a choke also so JD cant very easily break out once he gets 7-8 cannons there regardless how many hydras he makes. Face it he would have lost every time vs a better experienced toss, except maybe Kal who can scout 2hatch hydra breaks and not do anything to defend vs it
I just rewatched the game. Of course jjonga made mistakes there, that is undeniable. But I am really not sure if your analysis is accurate. The main problem for me is that he can only make so many cannons which are in range to protect the forge. Once the forge is down, JD may have a timing window to actually break through. He could have thrown some lings in the mixture and the hydras may very well have enough time to shot the cannons down until a new forge is up. As someone in the life-thread posted, you cannot underestimate how many hydras/units you can produce from two hatchs.
I am not saying that JD would have pulled through no matter what, but I just don't agree with you that it was a definite loss. When JD "misplaced" the first hatchery I thought it was over though. That was a really big mistake, he should have known that it would not finish in time. So yeah, JD was really lucky in this game.
By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote: By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
That's lot of theorycrafting. I'm sure you practice scenarios like this all the time so you would know the timings.
On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote: By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
Well he saw the hidra den , but there is always the possibility that Jaedong could research drop and go for lurkers or just stick with the hidras or something then trying to break the contain .
On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote: By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
Lol funnily enough I played a game on ICCUP where a guy tried it against me.
There's not as much space there as you might think, and making a bunch of cannons ruins your economy.
On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote: By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
That's lot of theorycrafting. I'm sure you practice scenarios like this all the time so you would know the timings.
Theory crafting? Maybe you should try to actually play the game and get a feel for things. How hard is it to realize those 600 minerals he spent on other shit beside cannons could have been 4 more cannons? You don`t have to be a rocket scientist nor a theory craft god to realize that 600 minerals worth could be 4 more cannons, you add that to the 3 cannons he already had behind the forge that makes 7 + the one he had in front. And yeah I have been cannon blocked like this on several occasions so the scenario is familiar.
OK I will give you an analysis's of why JD was fucked that game.
1. JD does the overpool build, the worst possible build he could do against jjongas build. It leaves him with the worst possible econ without being able to kill it off with lings (a 9pool could have been out just time to kill it off) 2. Then he proceeds to miss place his hatchery (This is probably because he believed the pylon supporting the forge was further below closer to his natural instead of the side where it actually was) so it gets in range of the cannon forcing him to cancel. Now hes on 1 hatch larva production..... 3. When jjonga have 3 cannons with a 4th warping JD is still on 1 hatch production with 4 hydras and 4 lings. By now jjonga could have had 3 more cannons warping in that would have been finished well in time before that decisive attack came.
Still somehow you people seem to think that JD could magically pull a bunch of hydras out of his ass without having the larva's to produce them. By the time JD could mount up a sizable force to break through there jjonga could have an expo up and even more cannons. And for everyone suggesting he could do a drop or something, JD was gas starved on a trashed economy with a scout inside his base seeing that he was doing 2hatch hydrabuild. Sure maybe he COULD tech lair, then drop and then drop out all his units (just how was he suppose to get gas/minerals enough for hydras, the upgrades, lair and drop?) but by that time jjonga could be sitting comfortably with an expo up or if he opted to tech have a corsair out in time to see whats going on an react accordingly.
The only possible way JD could win that game was if jjonga fucked up somehow (which he did) like Daniel Lee said "All he needed to do was make more cannons"
I agree with nearly everything you say. There are a tons of scenarios what JD could have done and still not stood any chance (and your analysis with JDs build is of course true).
But I am just not convinced it was already a lost game. Of course, 600 minerals more means 4 cannons more. But those additional 4 cannons are not shooting at JDs army at the same time. There is just not enough space. And even when JD does not get out: then we have a toss with nothing. No gate, no gas. And his economy is not superb either, 1 nexus and his like 5th drone towards JDs base.
Towards the Daniel Lee quote: They both are awesome, but they are also wrong a lot, and they sometimes miss stuff too. Happens when you are talking about different sorts of animal milk and wanting to have a sandwich
I just watched Jaedong vs Leta, and Jaedong has to be at least #1. We may need to invent another number, or maybe give him spots 1 and 2. The TvZ meta game is now early pressure mech builds, and Jaedong just seems immune to it.
I think that there is potential in the current map pool for a strong macro TvZer to consistently take games off Jaedong, but I don't know there are any Terrans up to it. Fantasy and Leta seem to be lacking in macro and late game control (relative to JD) and while Flash has what it takes in those categories his game sense has been off in a major way lately. Hopefully someone will step it up soon and make things interesting. I'm sick of that sound exploding SCVs make, even though it's been good for my fantasy team.
On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote: By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
That's lot of theorycrafting. I'm sure you practice scenarios like this all the time so you would know the timings.
Theory crafting? Maybe you should try to actually play the game and get a feel for things. How hard is it to realize those 600 minerals he spent on other shit beside cannons could have been 4 more cannons? You don`t have to be a rocket scientist nor a theory craft god to realize that 600 minerals worth could be 4 more cannons, you add that to the 3 cannons he already had behind the forge that makes 7 + the one he had in front. And yeah I have been cannon blocked like this on several occasions so the scenario is familiar.
OK I will give you an analysis's of why JD was fucked that game.
1. JD does the overpool build, the worst possible build he could do against jjongas build. It leaves him with the worst possible econ without being able to kill it off with lings (a 9pool could have been out just time to kill it off) 2. Then he proceeds to miss place his hatchery (This is probably because he believed the pylon supporting the forge was further below closer to his natural instead of the side where it actually was) so it gets in range of the cannon forcing him to cancel. Now hes on 1 hatch larva production..... 3. When jjonga have 3 cannons with a 4th warping JD is still on 1 hatch production with 4 hydras and 4 lings. By now jjonga could have had 3 more cannons warping in that would have been finished well in time before that decisive attack came.
Still somehow you people seem to think that JD could magically pull a bunch of hydras out of his ass without having the larva's to produce them. By the time JD could mount up a sizable force to break through there jjonga could have an expo up and even more cannons. And for everyone suggesting he could do a drop or something, JD was gas starved on a trashed economy with a scout inside his base seeing that he was doing 2hatch hydrabuild. Sure maybe he COULD tech lair, then drop and then drop out all his units (just how was he suppose to get gas/minerals enough for hydras, the upgrades, lair and drop?) but by that time jjonga could be sitting comfortably with an expo up or if he opted to tech have a corsair out in time to see whats going on an react accordingly.
The only possible way JD could win that game was if jjonga fucked up somehow (which he did) like Daniel Lee said "All he needed to do was make more cannons"
Why would Jjonga need more cannons according to your logic? Jaedong was really far behind and there was no way he could've broken out.
On June 02 2009 00:41 mark718 wrote: Ya, this PR doesn't exist to me. I thought it was terrible when it first came out and have been ignoring it ever since.
By JWD's rules Violet should be > Bisu for next month's PR, no?
This post doesn't exist for me, as it's self-contradictory.
On June 02 2009 02:07 Oystein wrote: By the time he would have killed the forge jjonga could already have close to 10 cannons there. He made 2gateways, assim + core even before JD made his FIRST attack with only a handful of hydra that could have been 4 more cannons, 3 if he decided to make one gateway. There was simply no way hes getting out of there with hydras if jjonga sticks to making cannons.
That's lot of theorycrafting. I'm sure you practice scenarios like this all the time so you would know the timings.
Theory crafting? Maybe you should try to actually play the game and get a feel for things. How hard is it to realize those 600 minerals he spent on other shit beside cannons could have been 4 more cannons? You don`t have to be a rocket scientist nor a theory craft god to realize that 600 minerals worth could be 4 more cannons, you add that to the 3 cannons he already had behind the forge that makes 7 + the one he had in front. And yeah I have been cannon blocked like this on several occasions so the scenario is familiar.
OK I will give you an analysis's of why JD was fucked that game.
1. JD does the overpool build, the worst possible build he could do against jjongas build. It leaves him with the worst possible econ without being able to kill it off with lings (a 9pool could have been out just time to kill it off) 2. Then he proceeds to miss place his hatchery (This is probably because he believed the pylon supporting the forge was further below closer to his natural instead of the side where it actually was) so it gets in range of the cannon forcing him to cancel. Now hes on 1 hatch larva production..... 3. When jjonga have 3 cannons with a 4th warping JD is still on 1 hatch production with 4 hydras and 4 lings. By now jjonga could have had 3 more cannons warping in that would have been finished well in time before that decisive attack came.
Still somehow you people seem to think that JD could magically pull a bunch of hydras out of his ass without having the larva's to produce them. By the time JD could mount up a sizable force to break through there jjonga could have an expo up and even more cannons. And for everyone suggesting he could do a drop or something, JD was gas starved on a trashed economy with a scout inside his base seeing that he was doing 2hatch hydrabuild. Sure maybe he COULD tech lair, then drop and then drop out all his units (just how was he suppose to get gas/minerals enough for hydras, the upgrades, lair and drop?) but by that time jjonga could be sitting comfortably with an expo up or if he opted to tech have a corsair out in time to see whats going on an react accordingly.
The only possible way JD could win that game was if jjonga fucked up somehow (which he did) like Daniel Lee said "All he needed to do was make more cannons"
Why would Jjonga need more cannons according to your logic? Jaedong was really far behind and there was no way he could've broken out.
I hope your only trolling, because if your not I am truly worried about your mental health.
Okay, Jjonga obvious has nothing to do besides practice for his match vs Jaedong, meaning he obviously practiced that cheese build vs a lot of different openings. Also, we can safely assume that he does not want to throw the game away. Therefore, he didn't build more cannons more quickly because he didn't lose when his opponents opened overpool and canceled a hatch with his amount of cannons at each moment. Reasonable, no? Obviously, that can't be what happened since I'm apparently trolling, so I guess the only reasonable conclusion is that jjonga wanted to lose.
On June 02 2009 11:36 Avidkeystamper wrote: Okay, Jjonga obvious has nothing to do besides practice for his match vs Jaedong, meaning he obviously practiced that cheese build vs a lot of different openings. Also, we can safely assume that he does not want to throw the game away. Therefore, he didn't build more cannons more quickly because he didn't lose when his opponents opened overpool and canceled a hatch with his amount of cannons at each moment. Reasonable, no? Obviously, that can't be what happened since I'm apparently trolling, so I guess the only reasonable conclusion is that jjonga wanted to lose.
This is why no progamer anywhere ever makes any mistakes in any game, unless they want to lose (this probably misses your point but its hard to catch the point from the post you just made). Jjonga is also a B teamer who has a losing record in the minor league. It should be clear that his decision making can be very fallible.
So people can`t choke and make mistakes in your world?
He was in a situation that his practice should have learned him that his opponent only had a single option after he had decided to go 2hatch hydra. He could do A. build more cannons and win 99% of the games or B. Make a gate\gas\core at home that he was in no rush of getting since he already knew JD had committed to going hydras or C. whatever other option that did not included securing the win by adding more cannons.
Sure maybe during practice his opponents might not have microed their hydras perfectly like Jaedong did when he broke out, but that don`t change the fact that all he needed to do too secure that game was making more cannons. You have arguably the best player in the world down in the gutter, why take chances when there is an obvious safe solution with a huge success rate....
So I guess by your standards jjonga played a perfectly game just as he had planned it to go, no mistakes in there what so ever?
My standards is that jjonga played the game as he planned it to go as in practice, but Jaedong won anyways. Did you see how close it was? There was no reason in delaying tech since 99% of the time in that situation, the hydra break wouldn't work. This is the most logical answer. Occam's razor.
It was an unnecessary risk to take that more experienced protoss people would have realized what was going on an adjusted their game plan. You even say yourself how close that was, considering how close that was it should have come out with similar close results during practice and hence he should have known it and added more cannons. Its unbelievable too see you deny that he made a mistake in the game not getting more cannons. Is it really that painful in your fanboy heart to realize that the outcome of the game was pretty much out of Jaedongs hands?
Calling people a fanboy is unnecessary, attack my arguments, not me. He followed his initial BO, which wasn't good enough to win. " considering how close that was it should have come out with similar close results during practice and hence he should have known it and added more cannons. " Yes, even you said how Jaedong's reaction to his build was the worst possible one, so why build more cannons? He did react by teching, as you said he should, and it cost him. It seems like you're the one that's contradicting yourself, now.
I am attacking you, because no objective person would make the arguments you are making, and hence I drew the conclusion that you have to be a blinded fanboy. How am I contradicting myself? Have I ever said anything beside making cannon would secure a win? When have I ever suggested that he should tech instead of making cannons?
Here is an example of how ridiculous it was that it compares to. Some Terran scouts the zerg going no lair 2hatch ling all in, all he needs to do to pretty much have the win secured is making 2firebats and a bunker instead of the next round of marines and extra rax he had in his initial BO. Would you say that player played well and did not do any mistakes when he proceeds to make more rins and die to the all in he have scouted... Or an even better example, Kal scouting that wemade Zerg go 2hatch hydra and then proceed to not make any more cannons. He played great since it was all in his pregame BO he had planned no mistakes there what so ever.
Edit : Also his initial BO was more than good enough to win, it gave him the game on a silver platter. That he then proceeds to throw it away with bad in game decisions.
It depends, if on that particular map, the terran player was able to defend a 2 hatch rush with another round of marines, then why not? The Kal game isn't even close to this game. jjonga adapted, but his inexperience or perhaps unluckiness with the cannons screwed him over. Kal didn't adapt since he didn't think Shine would continue going 2 hatch hydra. I'm going to drop this since this isn't particularly constructive, since at this point, Jaedong will be number 1 given his overall performance, but that could change after tonight's match.
On June 02 2009 00:41 mark718 wrote: Ya, this PR doesn't exist to me. I thought it was terrible when it first came out and have been ignoring it ever since.
By JWD's rules Violet should be > Bisu for next month's PR, no?
This post doesn't exist for me, as it's self-contradictory.
Mind explaining what you mean? I thought I was pretty clear in saying that I think this PR sucks.
So you think the correct solution in Kal`s game was to assume his opponent would quit his halfway all in and proceed to not add cannons that would pretty much make him lose if he continue with the all in, and put him at a decisive (close to the point of winning) advantage if he changes his gameplan OR he could proceed to make cannons that would pretty much guarantee him a win if he continues the all in, while still leaving him at a big advantage (not a sure win but he would probably still have a 80%+ chance of winning given the fact that his opponents eco was already severely crippled to the point that he could easily afford to make 3-4 cannons and still be firmly ahead). Are you trying to say that the way he did it was the better solution of the 2 choices?!? Are you really suggesting that players should be taking stupid risky chances with little too no reward when there is safe options with very high success rates because that is pretty much what you are saying....
Anyway I am fine with dropping this, but have you even read my first post on the subject where I wrote that Jaedong should be #1 on the next PR given his overall performance, witch have been astounding the last month. Because I never been arguing that he should not be #1, only that he can thank jjonga for still being in GOM.
Edit : About the choices you make, look how for instance Flash pretty much never makes a bad decision once hes ahead in games. Say hes in a spot where he most likely will win if he continues on to attack but there is a chance he could overextend, while the win is pretty much a lock if he just sits back and ride the advantage hes gotten. Flash will then proceed to go ahead and do the choice with the highest total chance of winning and its the reason hes one of the best players when ahead. While people like jjonga takes those unnecessary risk that cost them games every now and then that better more experienced players would have played safe and won.
"Are you trying to say that the way he did it was the better solution of the 2 choices?!?" No, where does it say that in my post? I'm saying why Kal didn't adapt, not justifying it as a viable choice. You keep saying that jjonga should've adapted, and you also said that Jaedong picked the worst bo to counter jjonga's plan. Thus, jjonga adapted since he knew this by delaying his cannons. That shouldn't be hard to understand.
"only that he can thank jjonga for still being in GOM." Well, obviously the opponent has to make mistakes. It was only a mistake at hindsight. Had Jaedong not attacked (which no one expected his attack to work, since everyone is surprised that it did), jjonga would've defeated him very quickly, and no one would point out that mistake, since it really is very, very small. If no one expected that attack to work, how do you plan for such an attack? You always take risks with BOs, if a terran can't scout a zerg, they don't build an academy earlier just in case of lurkers, most of the time the zerg doesn't 2 hatch lurkers. Likewise, no one expected Jaedong to break through.
"like jjonga takes those unnecessary risk that cost them games every now and then that better more experienced players would have played safe and won." Kal vs Shine. It's not just the inexperienced players, even well-known players get tripped up.
On June 01 2009 13:59 Sentenal wrote: The reason I'm not talking about the map stats overall, is because play styles have changed alot since when the map first came out. Like for example, look at Destination. When it first came out, Protosses were dominating with that 4gate 2archon build PvZ. Then Zergs started playing the map different, and Zergs started winning alot on it, and turned the balance around. Current metagame on the map is fairly balanced.
With Medusa, Zergs eventually figured the map out. And that is how the map went from "balanced" early on, to relatively imbalanced now. I guess its possible Protoss players are turning the corner on the map, but I don't believe it right now. That is why I'm looking at Neo Medusa stats. Neo Medusa stats reflect recent trends alot more than combining old Medusa stats with it.
Apparently since I stated there is a strategy that Zergs use, that works, you think I'm saying it is a 100% win. And I never said anything like that. I said it favors the Zerg, which is entirely true. In fact, you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, acting like I think its impossible for Protoss to win ("Than why doesnt every Zerg using it, and why arent Zergs winning using it every time, or almost every time?"). Like I said, Protoss doesn't have a strategy that works well against it. That doesn't mean its impossible for something to work. There are no absolutes in Starcraft, but that doesn't mean some strategies don't work a whole lot better than others.
The map is not and never was Z>P, you say recent stats are more important, I say recent stats are 7-3 for Protoss. You want to suggest that the straregy you described is the best on the map and it's very hard to beat, yet seemingly the progamers think otherwise. Protoss can deal with it, watch games and not only where Zergs win, i dont have anythin else to say. You try to prove that a map imbalanced even though all time stats are even (+1 for toss now) and the recent stats favor Toss also, and your major argument is a build which was used ~10-20 times and worked maybe half of the times...
On June 01 2009 14:54 Sentenal wrote: Kal got owned, but I don't see what that has to do with what I have been arguing about, with Neo Medusa's balance.
My original point was that Violet>Bisu, is more forgivable than jjonga>Jaedong. Bisu and Jaedong are very close in the running for #1, so that was my reasoning for Bisu being #1, and Jaedong being #2. Then a certain fanboy declared that Jaedong losing to that guy has absolutely no relevance to anything, and it might as well have never even happened.
Do you think it has relevance? He lost one game which does not matter, Bisu lost a game which does matter. And Jjonga did not beat JD, he took one game and lost the series easely. Bisu's first place can be accepted, but not because Violet is a way better player Jjonga. The loss for Jjonga sounds really bad, but has no relevance actually, while Bisu's loss cost SKT the series against their rivals. There are situations where a loss weights more you know, and situations when nobody (but you) cares if one game did not work out as it should have.
And they say Bisu fanboys are bad.... Did you even watch the games? jjonga had Jaedong dead in the water in game 3 before he choked massively and decided to NOT MAKE CANNONS and instead make 2 gateways when he have a contain his opponent HAS to try to break........ Jaedong didnt win that series, jjonga lost it. That loss on Medusa almost threw him out of GOM vs a pretty much unknown player, while you JD fans talk like it was just a little bump in the road and did not matter cuz he cruised through the other games when in fact he should have lost game 3 had jjonga been a more experienced player.
With that said beside that series Jaedong is playing incredibly well and giving him #1 would fair. (but really him and Bisu are pretty much looking equally good, biggest difference have been JD playing more games lately due to being ace and GOM)
Well, i wont argue with you ofc, cuz your sc knowledge is way superior (you are the real Oystein, right?). But your last paragraph is prety much what i was saying all the time (I put in bold one sentence now), aside all the fighting with Senetal.
News: I'll be writing the June Power Rank. Be on the lookout for it sometime around the 10th (to keep my promise to push the release date closer to the first of the month).
I've stopped contributing to the discussion in this thread over the past few pages, but I'd like all the commenters to know that I read each and every post in here and appreciated most of them (yes, even the critical ones). So thanks!
I'm eager for the chance to follow up this month's rank!
Hey! JWD, I wonder what type of criteria will you use this time? Honestly, I'd like it better if you didn't use past author's criteria but stuck with your own or maybe try a new one.
On June 02 2009 14:11 JWD wrote: News: I'll be writing the June Power Rank. Be on the lookout for it sometime around the 10th (to keep my promise to push the release date closer to the first of the month).
I've stopped contributing to the discussion in this thread over the past few pages, but I'd like all the commenters to know that I read each and every post in here and appreciated most of them (yes, even the critical ones). So thanks!
I'm eager for the chance to follow up this month's rank!
Oh please not at the 10th! I understand the idea behind it, but it already happened that a PR came out after 15 days the alst one was released, and everyone was happy about it (probably becaue one of the worst PRs was followed by one of the best), but anyways, please release it by the end of this week. Please!
On June 02 2009 14:13 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hey! JWD, I wonder what type of criteria will you use this time? Honestly, I'd like it better if you didn't use past author's criteria but stuck with your own or maybe try a new one.
The same criteria I used for the May rank: I'll be ranking the last month (the time elapsed since the May PR's publish date, May 15) of SC play's most powerful gamers. More specifically, that means some combination of a) general skill and b) the results they've posted over the past month.
And I'm sorry the release date will still be towards the middle of the month, but issuing a rank sooner would leave me with few games to go on (keep in mind May's rank was published on the 15th). The ~June 10th date is firm.
whether or not it comes on the 10th or the 12th is of minor concern (to me)... rather if you say it'll be out by the 10th I would hope it would be out by then - otherwise you're raping your own words. by extension that would be applied towards the subjective power rank
On June 02 2009 14:13 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hey! JWD, I wonder what type of criteria will you use this time? Honestly, I'd like it better if you didn't use past author's criteria but stuck with your own or maybe try a new one.
The same criteria I used for the May rank: I'll be ranking the last month (the time elapsed since the May PR's publish date, May 15) of SC play's most powerful gamers. More specifically, that means some combination of a) general skill and b) the results they've posted over the past month.
And I'm sorry the release date will still be towards the middle of the month, but issuing a rank sooner would leave me with few games to go on (keep in mind May's rank was published on the 15th). The ~June 10th date is firm.
Do not put Violet over Bisu please, even if it is hypocritical do not screw up the PR more than you did this time, just use basic insight judging by previous performances.
Nice first idea. Anyway JD should be 1st, though he played really shaky vs. a protoss in the GSL... what was his name? does he even have a name? Reason for JD being above Bisu: + Show Spoiler +
Vs. Keke, Bisu made the same mistake which made him fail in the past, he became overconfident: -failed 5-pool -totally won position for Bisu -suicide attack, instead of playing it safe -losing the expansion -he still won, because keke is one of the least competent pro gamers I've ever seen + he wasn't that far behind
I'd like to rank Effort first, due to his recent development, but this is impossible considering how he gets totally destroyed by Bisu everytime they meet (also lost to JD lately). Still I'm not that impressed, neither by JD's, nor by Bisu's play within the last few games. So unless s.th. crucial happens top 3 should be 1. JD 2. Bisu 3. Effort
The following spots are very arguable, but imo alright, it should be considered that: -Violet has impressive results, BUT: he beat only one A-class-player in his entire life (don't count the win vs. Lux, because lately he loses every game) -Leta still hasn't climbed the next step, players like Skyhigh did it -Kwanro should be on the ranking: he's in both SLs and almost always shows very entertaining play -Iris has been on the rise for ages; putting the former Kespa-#4 on 9 or 10 is justified
Nice first idea. Anyway JD should be 1st, though he played really shaky vs. a protoss in the GSL... what was his name? does he even have a name? Reason for JD being above Bisu: + Show Spoiler +
Vs. Keke, Bisu made the same mistake which made him fail in the past, he became overconfident: -failed 5-pool -totally won position for Bisu -suicide attack, instead of playing it safe -losing the expansion -he still won, because keke is one of the least competent pro gamers I've ever seen + he wasn't that far behind
I'd like to rank Effort first, due to his recent development, but this is impossible considering how he gets totally destroyed by Bisu everytime they meet (also lost to JD lately). Still I'm not that impressed, neither by JD's, nor by Bisu's play within the last few games. So unless s.th. crucial happens top 3 should be 1. JD 2. Bisu 3. Effort
The following spots are very arguable, but imo alright, it should be considered that: -Violet has impressive results, BUT: he beat only one A-class-player in his entire life (don't count the win vs. Lux, because lately he loses every game) -Leta still hasn't climbed the next step, players like Skyhigh did it -Kwanro should be on the ranking: he's in both SLs and almost always shows very entertaining play -Iris has been on the rise for ages; putting the former Kespa-#4 on 9 or 10 is justified
I'm not so sure Bisu v. keke was poorly played. Every move Bisu did (fast expo, zealot push, sair/goon push, zealot counter) forced keke to torpedo his own economy to keep up. If keke followed the suggestion of apparently every C+ on TL to find a time to econ up and make a hydra switch, he would have been incredibly wrecked with how aggressive Bisu was being.
That being said, I'd probably put JD over Bisu just because JD's month has been so impressive and by the slightest margin, more impressive than Bisu's even though both seem to putting up such unsustainable results.
Nice first idea. Anyway JD should be 1st, though he played really shaky vs. a protoss in the GSL... what was his name? does he even have a name? Reason for JD being above Bisu: + Show Spoiler +
Vs. Keke, Bisu made the same mistake which made him fail in the past, he became overconfident: -failed 5-pool -totally won position for Bisu -suicide attack, instead of playing it safe -losing the expansion -he still won, because keke is one of the least competent pro gamers I've ever seen + he wasn't that far behind
I'd like to rank Effort first, due to his recent development, but this is impossible considering how he gets totally destroyed by Bisu everytime they meet (also lost to JD lately). Still I'm not that impressed, neither by JD's, nor by Bisu's play within the last few games. So unless s.th. crucial happens top 3 should be 1. JD 2. Bisu 3. Effort
The following spots are very arguable, but imo alright, it should be considered that: -Violet has impressive results, BUT: he beat only one A-class-player in his entire life (don't count the win vs. Lux, because lately he loses every game) -Leta still hasn't climbed the next step, players like Skyhigh did it -Kwanro should be on the ranking: he's in both SLs and almost always shows very entertaining play -Iris has been on the rise for ages; putting the former Kespa-#4 on 9 or 10 is justified
I'm not so sure Bisu v. keke was poorly played. Every move Bisu did (fast expo, zealot push, sair/goon push, zealot counter) forced keke to torpedo his own economy to keep up. If keke followed the suggestion of apparently every C+ on TL to find a time to econ up and make a hydra switch, he would have been incredibly wrecked with how aggressive Bisu was being.
That being said, I'd probably put JD over Bisu just because JD's month has been so impressive and by the slightest margin, more impressive than Bisu's even though both seem to putting up such unsustainable results.
I actually think Jaedong and Bisu are tied for the first spot. In the absense of a head-on series result, I can't say who's better, and so I also wouldn't dethrone Bisu, just because his wins have been "less impressive" than JD's. In order to take over sole possesion of #1, I figured that JD would have to beat Bisu, or Bisu would have to suck. Neither has happened.
EffOrt has gutted through wins against some stronger players (Mind/BaBy), and totally wrecked inferior ones, (Bogus, SangHo). It's a real pity that he's in JD'd bracket for GOM, but EffOrt is a perenial top four in starleagues. He's not quite good enough to win yet. He also has 20 wins, in his last 23 games.
Violet is 11 of his last 12, and has shown excellent preparation (Bisu) and great game sense (Luxury). I agree, you'd like to see another win against a top flight player up there, but as it is, this guy looks really really good.
Iris is a solid player, but he hasn't played a lot of proleague recently, it seems. Kwanro's 0-2 loss to ZerO kinda erases his magnificent OSL group win. Also, his loss to UpMaGiC in proleague was kinda pathetic. That said, I have no idea who else would be in the tenth spot. Does it seem to anyone else that there just aren't any good zergs out there? Out of at least 48 proleague players, why is it always so hard to find ten players worthy of recognition? Myabe JangBi could get that spot, he and Stork never really slump...
"In order to take over sole possesion of #1, I figured that JD would have to beat Bisu, or Bisu would have to suck. Neither has happened. " Not under the new order of Power Rank!
On June 02 2009 23:30 StylishVODs wrote: Why would Bisu have to suck or lose for Jaedong to be ahead of him?
I agree, people keep making these stupid arguments. There should be no issue of someone being "hard to displace" in the PR. Just put the best player at the moment in there.
Flash should definetly not move up, his wins are not impressive, and he got mauled by Effort/Stork/Jangbi, even his game vs Fantasy was a short game of perfect execution by Flash. Flash should be moved down to no6 minimum. Skyhigh is right around there, all he did was defend vs all ins this month. Zero had a terrible performance this month losing mass ZvZs and even losing on Battle Royale, not sure how it will work with him in the PR.
Edit: My personal PR would be 1)Jaedong 2)Bisu 3)Effort 4)Leta 5)Fantasy 6)Flash 7)Violet 8)Stork 9)Skyhigh 10)Zero/Kwanro
On June 03 2009 01:30 StylishVODs wrote: I would rate fantasy abit higher than that, he's still one of the best players atm.
Yeah you're right. He's had a really sucky month though. Looking at it Violet looks too high as well.
On June 03 2009 01:52 samachking wrote:
Flash should definetly not move up, his wins are not impressive, and he got mauled by Effort/Stork/Jangbi, even his game vs Fantasy was a short game of perfect execution by Flash. Edit: My personal PR would be 1)Jaedong 2)Bisu 3)Effort 4)Leta 5)Fantasy 6)Flash 7)Violet 8)Stork 9)Skyhigh 10)Zero/Kwanro
I think it's hard to put Flash below Fantasy since he beat him this month and Fantasy has lost to Hogil, Calm and Pure. Maybe we can compromise and put him at 5th :p
On June 02 2009 18:45 Tyxiquale wrote: u know what? i'm really impressed with how you've handled the shit and criticism that people's thrown ur way.. gluck for this month's PR
i agree. if you get pissed just rank MuMyung as #1 and Rock as #2 to get back at people
On June 02 2009 23:30 StylishVODs wrote: Why would Bisu have to suck or lose for Jaedong to be ahead of him?
I agree, people keep making these stupid arguments. There should be no issue of someone being "hard to displace" in the PR. Just put the best player at the moment in there.
I never said Bisu is "hard to displace". I simply said he has looked every bit as impressive (to me, mind you, this is all opinion) as Jaedong and without a head-to-head, I can't say that Jaedong is better. So why demote Bisu?
On June 02 2009 23:30 StylishVODs wrote: Why would Bisu have to suck or lose for Jaedong to be ahead of him?
I agree, people keep making these stupid arguments. There should be no issue of someone being "hard to displace" in the PR. Just put the best player at the moment in there.
I never said Bisu is "hard to displace". I simply said he has looked every bit as impressive (to me, mind you, this is all opinion) as Jaedong and without a head-to-head, I can't say that Jaedong is better. So why demote Bisu?
*Sigh* Regardless of the GOM matchup, let us resort to this even when its not televised and only practice: "As of now, Jaedong is slightly ahead on head to head score. When we asked if things were any different during practice, “I lost all the games” Bisu remarked stiffly. Jaedong laughed awkwardly and mentioned that he thinks he may have lost some of them. It seems Bisu remembers the encounter during practice more clearly."
And talking about displacement is also against the previous PR, as JD got dethroned the month he won the OSL in without any displacement reason ,just underperforming. Granted Bisu isnt underperforming, just JD is performing at his level, which puts him on the throne for now.
On June 02 2009 23:30 StylishVODs wrote: Why would Bisu have to suck or lose for Jaedong to be ahead of him?
I agree, people keep making these stupid arguments. There should be no issue of someone being "hard to displace" in the PR. Just put the best player at the moment in there.
I never said Bisu is "hard to displace". I simply said he has looked every bit as impressive (to me, mind you, this is all opinion) as Jaedong and without a head-to-head, I can't say that Jaedong is better. So why demote Bisu?
*Sigh* Regardless of the GOM matchup, let us resort to this even when its not televised and only practice: "As of now, Jaedong is slightly ahead on head to head score. When we asked if things were any different during practice, “I lost all the games” Bisu remarked stiffly. Jaedong laughed awkwardly and mentioned that he thinks he may have lost some of them. It seems Bisu remembers the encounter during practice more clearly."
And talking about displacement is also against the previous PR, as JD got dethroned the month he won the OSL in without any displacement reason ,just underperforming. Granted Bisu isnt underperforming, just JD is performing at his level, which puts him on the throne for now.
"Did they practice with each other before then? They never requested practice games personally, but a practice session between the two had been arranged by the team staff before. This happened when Bisu just transferred to SK Telecom T1, so it was over a year ago."
On June 02 2009 23:30 StylishVODs wrote: Why would Bisu have to suck or lose for Jaedong to be ahead of him?
I agree, people keep making these stupid arguments. There should be no issue of someone being "hard to displace" in the PR. Just put the best player at the moment in there.
I never said Bisu is "hard to displace". I simply said he has looked every bit as impressive (to me, mind you, this is all opinion) as Jaedong and without a head-to-head, I can't say that Jaedong is better. So why demote Bisu?
Your argument is flawed. You're saying Bisu should stay top because him and Jaedong are equal. But how can two players who have vastly different results be exactly equal? Calling them equal is just a cop-out because you don't want to make the difficult decision. Basically, either argue Bisu > Jaedong or stop making daft posts.
Jaedong has been a dominant force this month. Anyone else in the top spot is indefensible. When you are reduced to asserting a Power Rank grandfather clause, it is time to settle for #2.
Bisu should remain number one on the PR. Jaedong went 2-1 against jjonga and 2-2 against movie. His zvp has just been too inconsistent. Compare that to Bisu's matchups, there has not been a weak game, not a weak matchup, nothing. Perfection.
On June 03 2009 05:39 Dazed_Spy wrote: Bisu should remain number one on the PR. Jaedong went 2-1 against jjonga and 2-2 against movie. His zvp has just been too inconsistent. Compare that to Bisu's matchups, there has not been a weak game, not a weak matchup, nothing. Perfection.
No, that was for the current PR. Jaedong is 7-1 since last PR and Bisu 4-1. 1 loss each, both playing great.
On June 02 2009 23:30 StylishVODs wrote: Why would Bisu have to suck or lose for Jaedong to be ahead of him?
I agree, people keep making these stupid arguments. There should be no issue of someone being "hard to displace" in the PR. Just put the best player at the moment in there.
I never said Bisu is "hard to displace". I simply said he has looked every bit as impressive (to me, mind you, this is all opinion) as Jaedong and without a head-to-head, I can't say that Jaedong is better. So why demote Bisu?
Your argument is flawed. You're saying Bisu should stay top because him and Jaedong are equal. But how can two players who have vastly different results be exactly equal? Calling them equal is just a cop-out because you don't want to make the difficult decision. Basically, either argue Bisu > Jaedong or stop making daft posts.
Woah, woah, woah. Easy there, what you call a cop-out is what I'd call nuance. I don't know who is the better player, because their results are excellent, and because I don't have a recent enough head-to-head to go on. Is that so absurd? I know of no mathematical formula to calculate their respective "power" so if, in my opinion, they're too-close-to-call, then I'll keep the order I already have. Again, in the absence of definitive proof, I'd keep Bisu at #1.
On June 03 2009 06:11 tree.hugger wrote: Woah, woah, woah. Easy there, what you call a cop-out is what I'd call nuance.
That makes no sense.
On June 03 2009 06:11 tree.hugger wrote: I don't know who is the better player, because their results are excellent, and because I don't have a recent enough head-to-head to go on. Is that so absurd?
Yes. You don't need a recent head-to-head. Their results are not equally excellent and that is the real point. If you can't make a decision then you shouldn't be posting in this thread.
On June 03 2009 06:11 tree.hugger wrote: I know of no mathematical formula to calculate their respective "power"
The human mind is a fantastic averaging machine, use it.
On June 03 2009 06:37 Sentenal wrote: SKT1 is playing Oz this week, aren't they? Lets hope for a Bisu vs Jaedong, so the #1 on the rank can be clear cut.
Agreed. In general, everyone probably roots for Bisu v. Jaedong.
Klive5ive, I don't know what I've done to make you so angry here... you have an opinion that (I think this right, no?) Jaedong is clearly better than Bisu. I am not so sure. You seem to suggest that I have no right to be unsure about who is better, as if the answer to that question were cut and dry, black and white.
What I see are two excellent starcraft players, both capable of beating each other on any map, at any time. If that's not two evenly matched opponents, then I guess I can't give you any better conditions.
Your suggestion, however, that I have no right to post (As something fun to be discussed) my thoughts is totally out-of-line, and completely contrary to the point of this forum.
On June 03 2009 06:37 Sentenal wrote: SKT1 is playing Oz this week, aren't they? Lets hope for a Bisu vs Jaedong, so the #1 on the rank can be clear cut.
Agreed. In general, everyone probably roots for Bisu v. Jaedong.
Klive5ive, I don't know what I've done to make you so angry here... you have an opinion that (I think this right, no?) Jaedong is clearly better than Bisu. I am not so sure. You seem to suggest that I have no right to be unsure about who is better, as if the answer to that question were cut and dry, black and white.
What I see are two excellent starcraft players, both capable of beating each other on any map, at any time. If that's not two evenly matched opponents, then I guess I can't give you any better conditions.
Your suggestion, however, that I have no right to post (As something fun to be discussed) my thoughts is totally out-of-line, and completely contrary to the point of this forum.
Apparently, the only people allowed to post in this thread, are fanboys or prophets.
On June 03 2009 05:39 Dazed_Spy wrote: Bisu should remain number one on the PR. Jaedong went 2-1 against jjonga and 2-2 against movie. His zvp has just been too inconsistent. Compare that to Bisu's matchups, there has not been a weak game, not a weak matchup, nothing. Perfection.
No, that was for the current PR. Jaedong is 7-1 since last PR and Bisu 4-1. 1 loss each, both playing great.
2-1 against Jjonga was this PR. Jjonga is bad. Jaedong's 7-1 record since the last PR has been against scrubs, excluding great and Leta [calm is no scrub, but his zvz is, obviously]. Bisu's opponents were not the cream of the crop either. All I am saying is, that this PR, Jaedong and Bisu have not shown anything different than they did the last PR. Jaedong and Bisu are still more than one step above everyone else, and they continue to bash down on low level to high level players. Nothing suggests either ones momentum or abilities has changed significantly since the last PR. The reason I brought up Jjonga is simply that: Jaedong's zvt is fan-fucking-tastic. His zvz the best in history. His zvp is, like last month, capable of beating bad to mediocre players, yet oddly, seems capable of losing to them as well. I'm not convinced that ATM Jaedong is as well rounded as Bisu.
This is an extremely hard statement to make/properly justify given that they are only playing some games in PL. There is little opportunity to prove themselves either way. And unfortunately, unless Jaedong can prove hes better, hes stuck at 2nd [in my opinion].
On June 03 2009 05:39 Dazed_Spy wrote: Bisu should remain number one on the PR. Jaedong went 2-1 against jjonga and 2-2 against movie. His zvp has just been too inconsistent. Compare that to Bisu's matchups, there has not been a weak game, not a weak matchup, nothing. Perfection.
No, that was for the current PR. Jaedong is 7-1 since last PR and Bisu 4-1. 1 loss each, both playing great.
2-1 against Jjonga was this PR. Jjonga is bad. Jaedong's 7-1 record since the last PR has been against scrubs, excluding great and Leta [calm is no scrub, but his zvz is, obviously]. Bisu's opponents were not the cream of the crop either. All I am saying is, that this PR, Jaedong and Bisu have not shown anything different than they did the last PR. Jaedong and Bisu are still more than one step above everyone else, and they continue to bash down on low level to high level players. Nothing suggests either ones momentum or abilities has changed significantly since the last PR. The reason I brought up Jjonga is simply that: Jaedong's zvt is fan-fucking-tastic. His zvz the best in history. His zvp is, like last month, capable of beating bad to mediocre players, yet oddly, seems capable of losing to them as well. I'm not convinced that ATM Jaedong is as well rounded as Bisu.
This is an extremely hard statement to make/properly justify given that they are only playing some games in PL. There is little opportunity to prove themselves either way. And unfortunately, unless Jaedong can prove hes better, hes stuck at 2nd [in my opinion].
Yeah I was referring to the 2-2 movie statement. I agree that Jaedong sometimes loses to protosses.
I think Jaedong and Bisu are almost equal, only difference now is that Jaedong is 7-1 while bisu is 4-1. And their last encounter he won, and coming from OSL victory... It's hard to rank those two right now.
The main difference between their stats right now, is that Jaedong has more wins. The reason for his more wins is more or less out of both player's control. Oz has like maybe 2 half good players on their team (in addition to Jaedong, who is amazing). Due to Oz's overall mediocreness, Jaedong gets to play in the Ace match more. SKT1 simply has more better players, so they don't go to Ace match as often, and even when they do, they still have Fantasy and Best, so Bisu doesn't always get the Ace match. Also, SKT1 isn't playing in GOM.
I'm just looking forward to SKT1 vs Oz. Hopefully there will be a clear-cut #1 after that.
Not really, Jaedong playing more games is out of his control, but him maintaing a better record is well within both player's control. Also, SKT T1 dropping sets to KTF and WeMade recently kind of makes it hard to go to ACE match when no one on SKT T1 besides Bisu wins, right? You're basically assuming that Bisu will win any additional games, which may be true, but we don't know, that's guesswork. Jaedong is slightly favored over Bisu for #1 right now, but it's pointless at this time since the PR will be out after SKT vs Oz anyways.
And if OZ 3-1's SKT with Bisu winning, or if SKT 3-1's Oz with Jaedong winning, we'll be in the exact same position.
Obviously everyone is hoping for a Jaedong vs Fantasy match and a Jaedong vs Bisu ace as that'd be quite possibly the most epic series possible, but not sure it's gonna happen.
I don't think its an unfair assumption that Bisu would bulldoze his way though GOM, seeing as how he won it last season, and raped his recentish MSL Survivor group (which included Calm).
Anyway, SKT1 did go like 8-3 last round, compared to Oz going 6-5. I don't remember how many times both went to Ace (and won), but SKT1 did win more than Oz last round, due to a better overall team (until someone on Oz steps up to help Jaedong).
I will be VERY disappointed if SKT1 vs Oz contains a Jaedong vs Failzerg game.
I know Bisu is a heavy favorite to win, but there's no guarantee that he would 2-0 every opponent he meets. The point is that he didn't play those games, so we can't just extrapolate his performance onto GOM. The extra workload needs to be taken into account here.
On June 03 2009 05:39 Dazed_Spy wrote: Bisu should remain number one on the PR. Jaedong went 2-1 against jjonga and 2-2 against movie. His zvp has just been too inconsistent. Compare that to Bisu's matchups, there has not been a weak game, not a weak matchup, nothing. Perfection.
No, that was for the current PR. Jaedong is 7-1 since last PR and Bisu 4-1. 1 loss each, both playing great.
2-1 against Jjonga was this PR. Jjonga is bad. Jaedong's 7-1 record since the last PR has been against scrubs, excluding great and Leta [calm is no scrub, but his zvz is, obviously]. Bisu's opponents were not the cream of the crop either. All I am saying is, that this PR, Jaedong and Bisu have not shown anything different than they did the last PR. Jaedong and Bisu are still more than one step above everyone else, and they continue to bash down on low level to high level players. Nothing suggests either ones momentum or abilities has changed significantly since the last PR. The reason I brought up Jjonga is simply that: Jaedong's zvt is fan-fucking-tastic. His zvz the best in history. His zvp is, like last month, capable of beating bad to mediocre players, yet oddly, seems capable of losing to them as well. I'm not convinced that ATM Jaedong is as well rounded as Bisu.
This is an extremely hard statement to make/properly justify given that they are only playing some games in PL. There is little opportunity to prove themselves either way. And unfortunately, unless Jaedong can prove hes better, hes stuck at 2nd [in my opinion].
They are different. The reason Jaedong got moved down from PR 1 after the OSL crown is because he lost to scrubs like Ganzi[3.33], one of the bottom ranked ELO players in the whole league, in a semi-straight up fashion in the MSL, and then led Oz to a shaky beginning to the Proleague that month. Hence he got moved down. He is no longer droppipng to scrubs like Ganzi in KesPa tournaments. Yes Jjonga is a CJ B teamer who has a losing record in the minor league, but losing a game to him in the GOM, a tournament which gamers not surprisingly put much less priority on, doesn't hurt either Oz (like losing proleague games does) or his own chances in the Gom; as long as he doesn't show this play in either the proleague or the OSL, there's really not that large of a knock on Jaedong. "Sticking the status quo until Jaedong shows something great" isn't really legitimate, because the reason Jaedong got moved down is because of a small lapse in his play, a lapse he's closed up nicely . I also really don't see why you think his ZvP is only capable of beating bad to mediocre players, when he completely obliterated the protosses he won against (and did not play any top tier Protosses in recent memory).
Also, I know this is late, but
On June 02 2009 11:44 Avidkeystamper wrote: Erm, he followed a pre-planned build order. Every single pro can do that. I can assure you no pros make a mistake following an early-game build order.
Tell this to Yellow[ArnC]'s 5pool followups, Kal's recent vZ builds (vs Hyuk and vs Shinekal), Stork's missing dragoon range, or BackHo[WHITE]
On June 03 2009 05:39 Dazed_Spy wrote: Bisu should remain number one on the PR. Jaedong went 2-1 against jjonga and 2-2 against movie. His zvp has just been too inconsistent. Compare that to Bisu's matchups, there has not been a weak game, not a weak matchup, nothing. Perfection.
No, that was for the current PR. Jaedong is 7-1 since last PR and Bisu 4-1. 1 loss each, both playing great.
2-1 against Jjonga was this PR. Jjonga is bad. Jaedong's 7-1 record since the last PR has been against scrubs, excluding great and Leta [calm is no scrub, but his zvz is, obviously]. Bisu's opponents were not the cream of the crop either. All I am saying is, that this PR, Jaedong and Bisu have not shown anything different than they did the last PR. Jaedong and Bisu are still more than one step above everyone else, and they continue to bash down on low level to high level players. Nothing suggests either ones momentum or abilities has changed significantly since the last PR. The reason I brought up Jjonga is simply that: Jaedong's zvt is fan-fucking-tastic. His zvz the best in history. His zvp is, like last month, capable of beating bad to mediocre players, yet oddly, seems capable of losing to them as well. I'm not convinced that ATM Jaedong is as well rounded as Bisu.
This is an extremely hard statement to make/properly justify given that they are only playing some games in PL. There is little opportunity to prove themselves either way. And unfortunately, unless Jaedong can prove hes better, hes stuck at 2nd [in my opinion].
They are different. The reason Jaedong got moved down from PR 1 after the OSL crown is because he lost to scrubs like Ganzi[3.33], one of the bottom ranked ELO players in the whole league, in a semi-straight up fashion in the MSL, and then led Oz to a shaky beginning to the Proleague that month. Hence he got moved down. He is no longer droppipng to scrubs like Ganzi in KesPa tournaments. Yes Jjonga is a CJ B teamer who has a losing record in the minor league, but losing a game to him in the GOM, a tournament which gamers not surprisingly put much less priority on, doesn't hurt either Oz (like losing proleague games does) or his own chances in the Gom; as long as he doesn't show this play in either the proleague or the OSL, there's really not that large of a knock on Jaedong. "Sticking the status quo until Jaedong shows something great" isn't really legitimate, because the reason Jaedong got moved down is because of a small lapse in his play, a lapse he's closed up nicely . I also really don't see why you think his ZvP is only capable of beating bad to mediocre players, when he completely obliterated the protosses he won against (and did not play any top tier Protosses in recent memory).
On June 02 2009 11:44 Avidkeystamper wrote: Erm, he followed a pre-planned build order. Every single pro can do that. I can assure you no pros make a mistake following an early-game build order.
Tell this to Yellow[ArnC]'s 5pool followups, Kal's recent vZ builds (vs Hyuk and vs Shinekal), Stork's missing dragoon range, or BackHo[WHITE]
Well Jaedong losing to Ganzi while he is bad , you have to take note the map was byzantium and it is imbalanced against zergs also Ganzi didn't play bad that game Nal_Ra said he was playing the game of his life . Also in early May when the power rank was still in the process of being made Jaedong wiped the floor with ganzi and his other opponent Docktor_K was it ? He also wiped the floor with Movie in Gom whom he lost to in PL . So i don't think lowering him to fourth place after losing a few games was reasonable especially to players who are weaker then him like Zero and Fantasy who he beat in the OSL finals in the same month .
They are different. The reason Jaedong got moved down from PR 1 after the OSL crown is because he lost to scrubs like Ganzi[3.33], one of the bottom ranked ELO players in the whole league, in a semi-straight up fashion in the MSL, and then led Oz to a shaky beginning to the Proleague that month. Hence he got moved down. He is no longer droppipng to scrubs like Ganzi in KesPa tournaments. Yes Jjonga is a CJ B teamer who has a losing record in the minor league, but losing a game to him in the GOM, a tournament which gamers not surprisingly put much less priority on, doesn't hurt either Oz (like losing proleague games does) or his own chances in the Gom; as long as he doesn't show this play in either the proleague or the OSL, there's really not that large of a knock on Jaedong. "Sticking the status quo until Jaedong shows something great" isn't really legitimate, because the reason Jaedong got moved down is because of a small lapse in his play, a lapse he's closed up nicely
So basically what you are saying is, if Jaedong plays well, #1 on the Power Rank is his by right, regardless of how well others may be playing?
Following your Logic, people were only ahead of Jaedong last month because Jaedong played a few bad games. If you are actually saying something like "Jaedong playing better than Bisu right now", sorry for misunderstanding, I can understand that reasoning (even if I don't agree), but otherwise >_>
edit: Jaedong's OSL win was fresh for the April PR, not the May PR. Post-OSL, Fantasy was just playing better, that's why he was higher for May.
Imagine Bisu and JD met each other during SKT-OZ! and the score could be 1-1, now imagine the shitstorm coming after that! Gogogo, release the PR sooner
They are different. The reason Jaedong got moved down from PR 1 after the OSL crown is because he lost to scrubs like Ganzi[3.33], one of the bottom ranked ELO players in the whole league, in a semi-straight up fashion in the MSL, and then led Oz to a shaky beginning to the Proleague that month. Hence he got moved down. He is no longer droppipng to scrubs like Ganzi in KesPa tournaments. Yes Jjonga is a CJ B teamer who has a losing record in the minor league, but losing a game to him in the GOM, a tournament which gamers not surprisingly put much less priority on, doesn't hurt either Oz (like losing proleague games does) or his own chances in the Gom; as long as he doesn't show this play in either the proleague or the OSL, there's really not that large of a knock on Jaedong. "Sticking the status quo until Jaedong shows something great" isn't really legitimate, because the reason Jaedong got moved down is because of a small lapse in his play, a lapse he's closed up nicely
So basically what you are saying is, if Jaedong plays well, #1 on the Power Rank is his by right, regardless of how well others may be playing?
Following your Logic, people were only ahead of Jaedong last month because Jaedong played a few bad games. If you are actually saying something like "Jaedong playing better than Bisu right now", sorry for misunderstanding, I can understand that reasoning (even if I don't agree), but otherwise >_>
edit: Jaedong's OSL win was fresh for the April PR, not the May PR. Post-OSL, Fantasy was just playing better, that's why he was higher for May.
Players who have achieved dominance before and more often should receieve the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying Jaedong has had more dominance than Bisu because from my view, they are about equal in terms of skill and status but these two, if in one month they each win 5 games and loses 1, should be ranked higher than someone like Skyhigh who wins 6 games and 0 losses (For example)
I don't know who I'd put at #1. Bisu, i guess. No real reason to move him. 13-2 since getting knocked out of batoo, with losses to rising star violet (8-0 in proleague, ro16 in gom, have you seen this guy play) and great's sick neo medusa center hatch build.
Jaedong is back to his beastly self and should be at number #2, easily. Aside from losing a game in gom to sucker jjonga in his typical LWW fashion, Jaedong hasn't dropped a game since april.
Effort at #3 because my goodness how about effort he is on a tear. 18-2 in his last 20.
Violet at #4. See above.
Flash at #5, I suppose. He's playing well and doing his best to keep KTF afloat, along with violet.
Skyhigh at #6, He's CJ's go-to terran and now that the hype from WL finals has worn off, it's pretty clear that he's an all-around solid player.
Leta #7, another month of ripping apart proleague for shin sang moon.
Fantasy #8. Not a particularly solid month, and a whole bunch of other players have done better. However, he's fantasy. We know he's good.
Much #9. I know, I know. He's starting to play like good Much again though. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/142_Much His PvZ is above 50% for the first time in his career and he's a key to CJ's proleague success.
Stork #10, I guess. Consistently solid stork is putting up consistently solid results. No surprise there.
CBNC: Zero. There's no question that he's a good player, but outside of GOM, he hasn't won a game in three weeks, and three of them have been against zergs, (!) and one against light.
Upmagic is showing that creative Up style, but he's not in the top 10 yet.
One thing to think about when arguing that Jaedong has more wins because he gets to play more acematches is that if Bisu didn't lose to violet, he would probably have played another acematch aswell. The thing with jaedong is that he always wins his game so their team gets to ace!
On June 04 2009 06:01 StylishVODs wrote: One thing to think about when arguing that Jaedong has more wins because he gets to play more acematches is that if Bisu didn't lose to violet, he would probably have played another acematch aswell. The thing with jaedong is that he always wins his game so their team gets to ace!
They had nearly exactly the same winning percentage in round 4. Bisu went 9-2, Jaedong went 9-3. Kinda unfair to Bisu, implying that Jaedong "always" wins his games, while Bisu doesn't.
On June 02 2009 21:00 Verilan wrote: I'm not so sure Bisu v. keke was poorly played. Every move Bisu did (fast expo, zealot push, sair/goon push, zealot counter) forced keke to torpedo his own economy to keep up. If keke followed the suggestion of apparently every C+ on TL to find a time to econ up and make a hydra switch, he would have been incredibly wrecked with how aggressive Bisu was being.
That being said, I'd probably put JD over Bisu just because JD's month has been so impressive and by the slightest margin, more impressive than Bisu's even though both seem to putting up such unsustainable results.
Bisu took a totally unnecessary risk and almost screwed it up. I call it poor play.
On June 02 2009 23:20 tree.hugger wrote: Kwanro's 0-2 loss to ZerO kinda erases his magnificent OSL group win. Also, his loss to UpMaGiC in proleague was kinda pathetic. That said, I have no idea who else would be in the tenth spot.
Kwanro had to play 7 games within 3 days, Zero had time to prepare. I also think that players don't take GOMTV3 that serious anymore, cause a few teams, including the big team, don't participate. Stork lost to a no-name-player, Jangbi lost to a close-to-no-name-player, even JD almost failed vs. a player who isn't even known by his own mum. JD and Stork looked very solid in the other games they played lately. This leads me to the conclusion that it's very probable that players put most of there Effort (no pun intended) in the other SLs and Pro League. The loss vs. UpMagic is a different thing, I think he was outplayed by a very good player. imo UpMagic is one of the most underestimated players out there. In terms of creativity he's one of the 10 best players of all times, but due to his relatively poor mechanics and lack of micro he can't show it. Nevertheless his playing style makes him a very dangerous opponent for every player out there (and also VERY ENTERTAINING. If every SC-player in the world played as boring as Leta I wouldn't watch it anymore). I don't say that Kwanro is a top player yet, but he is in both league and definitely on the rise. + Show Spoiler +
His up-and-down-game vs. Lomo also shows that he's able to come back from disadvantageous positions.
On June 04 2009 01:27 AzureEye wrote:
Players who have achieved dominance before and more often should receieve the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying Jaedong has had more dominance than Bisu because from my view, they are about equal in terms of skill and status but these two, if in one month they each win 5 games and loses 1, should be ranked higher than someone like Skyhigh who wins 6 games and 0 losses (For example)
I agree with this one, this method makes the PR far more authentic. Even Bisu only got the 2nd spot in 2007 after the greatest upset in SC history by far. There Violet shoudn't be too high yet.
On June 04 2009 04:41 pandabearguy wrote: Much #9. I know, I know. He's starting to play like good Much again though. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/142_Much His PvZ is above 50% for the first time in his career and he's a key to CJ's proleague success.
Though he's one of my favorite players I have to tell you the truth about Much's PvZ: it's bad. The reason why it's over 50%, is that he plays players like Roro, Falcon, Sacsri (damn.. who??), Rumble, Yellow and Firefist nowadays, instead of Jaedong and July. He also is only in one league and I don't see him carrying his team in PL, the "keys to CJ's proleague success" are Kwanro and even more Skyhigh and Effort. But the most important reason for not putting him on the PR is, that he doesn't beat good players. Last time he beat a 'good' player was in March (Flash) and the second last time, well... July in septembre. Just watch who Iris did beat since then...
On June 02 2009 21:00 Verilan wrote: I'm not so sure Bisu v. keke was poorly played. Every move Bisu did (fast expo, zealot push, sair/goon push, zealot counter) forced keke to torpedo his own economy to keep up. If keke followed the suggestion of apparently every C+ on TL to find a time to econ up and make a hydra switch, he would have been incredibly wrecked with how aggressive Bisu was being.
That being said, I'd probably put JD over Bisu just because JD's month has been so impressive and by the slightest margin, more impressive than Bisu's even though both seem to putting up such unsustainable results.
Bisu took a totally unnecessary risk and almost screwed it up. I call it poor play.
Bisu took a totally unncecessary risk, almost got screwed, put himself behind by a ton, and then was like "Screw you Bitch, I'm Bisu, and you are Zerg. I win." And then the other guy got raped. It was poor play by Bisu putting himself into the hole he got into, but it was also great play by Bisu getting out of the hole he put himself into.
On June 02 2009 21:00 Verilan wrote: I'm not so sure Bisu v. keke was poorly played. Every move Bisu did (fast expo, zealot push, sair/goon push, zealot counter) forced keke to torpedo his own economy to keep up. If keke followed the suggestion of apparently every C+ on TL to find a time to econ up and make a hydra switch, he would have been incredibly wrecked with how aggressive Bisu was being.
That being said, I'd probably put JD over Bisu just because JD's month has been so impressive and by the slightest margin, more impressive than Bisu's even though both seem to putting up such unsustainable results.
Bisu took a totally unnecessary risk and almost screwed it up. I call it poor play.
Bisu took a totally unncecessary risk, almost got screwed, put himself behind by a ton, and then was like "Screw you Bitch, I'm Bisu, and you are Zerg. I win." And then the other guy got raped. It was poor play by Bisu putting himself into the hole he got into, but it was also great play by Bisu getting out of the hole he put himself into.
On June 04 2009 07:34 disciple wrote: Bisu is humiliating all zergs atm, I'm sure he will beat JD if they play right now, but Jaedong has been the better all-rounder last month
People said that before the gom special match too.
On June 04 2009 07:34 disciple wrote: Bisu is humiliating all zergs atm, I'm sure he will beat JD if they play right now, but Jaedong has been the better all-rounder last month
People said that before the gom special match too.
and what happened ? Bisu defeated JD in WL and the day after fucked himself in game 5 of the series. Remember, Bisu is not han to rape Jaedong wherever he sees him
The point is that it's not a very good idea to use Jaedong vs P and Bisu's vs Z to predict the outcome of a match between them. Jaedong's vP is very volatile, but can also be the best in the world. That's why his vP looked shaky before the GOM match, but he still stood toe-to-toe with Bisu. Likewise, playing zergs and playing Jaedong is very different for Bisu. Honestly, most of his zerg opponents have been crap, so the steamrolling that Bisu gives them won't happen vs Jaedong. Just like at Flash, when he slumps, he rapes every mediocre player, but that isn't an indication of how well he'll do vs top gamers. It's a whole different ballpark. Remember their game on Andromeda? Yeah, Bisu was slumping mad then but for that one shining game, he looked really good.
On June 04 2009 07:34 disciple wrote: Bisu is humiliating all zergs atm, I'm sure he will beat JD if they play right now, but Jaedong has been the better all-rounder last month
People said that before the gom special match too.
Really?
According to this thread on TL for that, 56% of people expected a Jaedong Victory.
edit: Bisu has recently beaten Calm, Effort, Zero, and nearly every other "big" Zerg name out there, other than Jaedong or July. It isn't like he has been only playing scrub zergs.
On June 04 2009 08:01 Avidkeystamper wrote: The point is that it's not a very good idea to use Jaedong vs P and Bisu's vs Z to predict the outcome of a match between them. Jaedong's vP is very volatile, but can also be the best in the world. That's why his vP looked shaky before the GOM match, but he still stood toe-to-toe with Bisu. Likewise, playing zergs and playing Jaedong is very different for Bisu. Honestly, most of his zerg opponents have been crap, so the steamrolling that Bisu gives them won't happen vs Jaedong. Just like at Flash, when he slumps, he rapes every mediocre player, but that isn't an indication of how well he'll do vs top gamers. It's a whole different ballpark. Remember their game on Andromeda? Yeah, Bisu was slumping mad then but for that one shining game, he looked really good.
On June 04 2009 07:34 disciple wrote: Bisu is humiliating all zergs atm, I'm sure he will beat JD if they play right now, but Jaedong has been the better all-rounder last month
People said that before the gom special match too.
Really?
According to this thread on TL for that, 56% of people expected a Jaedong Victory.
edit: Bisu has recently beaten Calm, Effort, Zero, and nearly every other "big" Zerg name out there, other than Jaedong or July. It isn't like he has been only playing scrub zergs.
Most of his zerg opponents (besides) Effort and Calm are mediocre in ZvP. But my point wasn't trying to say he's not good or anything. That's just fact.
1) Bisu : No reason to bump him down from the previous #1 spot. Him and Jaedong are playing fantastic games, and unless i see Bisu faltering dramatically i see no reason to bump him down.
2) Jaedong: Also playing fantastically. Leading the PL in kills, and the second player in history to reach 100 PL wins is a strong achievement. However the games that JD has won has looked just as impressive as the games Bisu has won. These two are tied for #1, and everyone knows it.
3) Leta: This kid is playing some scary ass starcraft. He took apart the 2 port wraith and turned it into a fucking WRECKING BALL. He's keeping Hite's playoff hopes alive, and with a 5-2 record vs Zerg in R5, Leta is once again the PL monster.
4) Effort: Many in TL are calling Effort the second coming of Jesus Zerg aka maestro aka GOD aka Savior. Effort is playing FLAWLESSLY. CJ is riding on his as well as SkyHigh and Iris's play. Took a look at FPL lately? Guess who leads in points? You got it~ Effort is playing trememdously and if it weren't for the three monster's above him, i would be calling the second zerg bonjwa right here and now
5) Fantasy: He's playing SOLID SOLID SOLID. His vs P is air-tight and his TvT's flawless. His vs Zerg is a Da Vinci (as long as he is not going mech) SKT is riding on his and Bisu's play, and he is not dissapointing.
6) SkyHigh: Great player. I LOVE LOVE LOVEEE Skyhigh. I became his fan after watching his GOM S2 set vs BeST. SkyHigh is playing great starcraft, albeit a little sloppy. Once he matures more as a player, i think this kid will go on a wrecking spree.
7) Violet: the only reason why this kid is so low is because everyone above him is just too damn good. Violet, the second coming of the mantoss has been raping shit up in the PL. Going a perfect 8-0 in R4 Including a win over Bisu himself, this kid has shown massive balls of steel. His PvZ leaves something to be desired but after watching him rape the FUCK out of Hyun, all of my fears were dissuaded. This kid will kick up a storm mark my words.
is it really that difficult for us, the Bisu fans, to take deep breath and to say that JD has been more impressive that our beloved hero last month? I mean, yeah KTY dropped 2 games in total but Jaedong is looking so fucking scary right now, I have no problem admitting that, he must be #1 in the next PR.
Seeing as Bisu's best matchup is PvZ according to himself, and Jaedongs worst matchup is ZvP according to his play this year I think Bisu might have better odds at a bo5 unless Jaedong is on God mode which he sometimes is.
Stork is undefeated since the last Power Rank and has stomped on Flash, free, and some other good players. It looks like he is back from getting lazy again so I think he's should be somewhere between 7 and 10 if he keeps it up.
I don't know where Flash should go, but he has been much more aggressive than usual in his last 3 games after losing with his usual passive play against Stork and Jangbi. I think he's finally starting to be less predictable, which is great for him since it is his greatest weakness. He can certainly execute more aggressive strategies well when he attempts them.
If anyone thinks Bisu played poorly against keke, simply read Nal_Ra's in depth explanation of the game, and realize you are simply wrong. Then, post here and apologize to Bisu.
On June 04 2009 14:25 Dazed_Spy wrote: If anyone thinks Bisu played poorly against keke, simply read Nal_Ra's in depth explanation of the game, and realize you are simply wrong. Then, post here and apologize to Bisu.
OR u can try and argue the fact that you know more about starcraft than Nal_Ra.
On June 04 2009 14:25 Dazed_Spy wrote: If anyone thinks Bisu played poorly against keke, simply read Nal_Ra's in depth explanation of the game, and realize you are simply wrong. Then, post here and apologize to Bisu.
OR u can try and argue the fact that you know more about starcraft than Nal_Ra.
Good luck.
Edit: Maybe I'm confused here, but, Ra said Bisu played well, and I clearly agree...so? Am I misreading what your saying?
On June 04 2009 14:25 Dazed_Spy wrote: If anyone thinks Bisu played poorly against keke, simply read Nal_Ra's in depth explanation of the game, and realize you are simply wrong. Then, post here and apologize to Bisu.
OR u can try and argue the fact that you know more about starcraft than Nal_Ra.
Good luck.
Edit: Maybe I'm confused here, but, Ra said Bisu played well, and I clearly agree...so? Am I misreading what your saying?
He is adding to what you are saying:
eg:
If anyone thinks Bisu played poorly against keke, simply read Nal_Ra's in depth explanation of the game, and realize you are simply wrong. Then, post here and apologize to Bisu, or u can try and argue the fact that you know more about starcraft than Nal_Ra.
If Violet isn't on the PR, my head is going to explode. ^_^
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
On June 04 2009 14:25 Dazed_Spy wrote: If anyone thinks Bisu played poorly against keke, simply read Nal_Ra's in depth explanation of the game, and realize you are simply wrong. Then, post here and apologize to Bisu.
Nalra said Bisu initially reacted badly to the pool.
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
thats exactly why people shouldnt say: "Bisu cant play in Gom"
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
of course it matters if you win 3-0 or 3-2, or 2-1 over 2-0. If you beat Bisu 3-2, then good job. If you 3-0 him, WOW. If you 2-1 against Jangbi, ok. If you 2-1 against jjonga, wtf?
Guess who went 2-1 againts jjonga...S class players should not be dropping those games.
That's why they have 100% win records, right? Let it go, Jaedong's play overall was so good that i don't see that dropping one game vs jjonga is going to affect his ranking.
On June 05 2009 12:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: That's why they have 100% win records, right? Let it go, Jaedong's play overall was so good that i don't see that dropping one game vs jjonga is going to affect his ranking.
Jaedong has a 65% recored zvp all time, against top players. Losing a single game against Jjonga, while just a month before losing two to Movie, is rather big. It is enough to split the decision between him and Bisu, simply because its an example of inconsistency. Barring of course, the potential for a Bisu vs Jaedong match in PL, which could easily settle any question on Jaedongs sometimes shaky-sometimes awesome zvp.
On June 04 2009 20:10 Shikyo wrote: If Violet isn't on the PR, my head is going to explode. ^_^
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
of course it matters if you win 3-0 or 3-2, or 2-1 over 2-0. If you beat Bisu 3-2, then good job. If you 3-0 him, WOW. If you 2-1 against Jangbi, ok. If you 2-1 against jjonga, wtf?
Guess who went 2-1 againts jjonga...S class players should not be dropping those games.
Progaming has become very competative. Starcraft is not something you can stay dominant in every game, every time. It's become really hard to win everything, especially when there are so many gamers around. The fact that Jjonga got a spot in the tournament to play Jaedong says much about his skills.
Just because you've never heard of this guy doesn't mean that he won't be a good p in the future. Every Bonjwa had to start as a no-name, so stop your whining
On June 05 2009 12:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: That's why they have 100% win records, right? Let it go, Jaedong's play overall was so good that i don't see that dropping one game vs jjonga is going to affect his ranking.
Jaedong has a 65% recored zvp all time, against top players. Losing a single game against Jjonga, while just a month before losing two to Movie, is rather big. It is enough to split the decision between him and Bisu, simply because its an example of inconsistency. Barring of course, the potential for a Bisu vs Jaedong match in PL, which could easily settle any question on Jaedongs sometimes shaky-sometimes awesome zvp.
The way I see it, Jaedong is barely ahead of Bisu, but still undeniably ahead as of right now. After SKT T1 vs Hwaseung Oz, whoever produces the best results should be #1, unless Bisu wins in a really bad game and Jaedong wins in a really good game (not likely, vs Hyuk). Also, if they face in ace, whoever wins will probably be #1. However, if they have the same results, then Jaedong's overall better play this month will secure the first position for him. Losing to one game to jjonga may be bad, but he's done a whole lot of stuff this month to make up for it.
On June 05 2009 12:22 Avidkeystamper wrote: That's why they have 100% win records, right? Let it go, Jaedong's play overall was so good that i don't see that dropping one game vs jjonga is going to affect his ranking.
Jaedong has a 65% recored zvp all time, against top players. Losing a single game against Jjonga, while just a month before losing two to Movie, is rather big. It is enough to split the decision between him and Bisu, simply because its an example of inconsistency. Barring of course, the potential for a Bisu vs Jaedong match in PL, which could easily settle any question on Jaedongs sometimes shaky-sometimes awesome zvp.
The way I see it, Jaedong is barely ahead of Bisu, but still undeniably ahead as of right now. After SKT T1 vs Hwaseung Oz, whoever produces the best results should be #1, unless Bisu wins in a really bad game and Jaedong wins in a really good game (not likely, vs Hyuk). Also, if they face in ace, whoever wins will probably be #1. However, if they have the same results, then Jaedong's overall better play this month will secure the first position for him. Losing to one game to jjonga may be bad, but he's done a whole lot of stuff this month to make up for it.
Lol. Oz fanboys. I have to say bisu is ahead of jaedong in terms of proleague win because he has a higher win rate in the proleague than jaedong. I think right now jaedong has won one more game than bisu, but thats also because jaedong has lost more games.
And a message to the skt fanboy, JWD, I know you don't like khan players that much or if you don't dislike them, you just don't find them impressive or something, but here are few changes in the pr i expect to c in the new pr. fantasy, Kespa and thezerg out of pr. Zero and skyhigh moving down in pr. Skyhigh and fantasy just isn't all that hot right now. Skyhigh beat some random players,but lost to most of the higher caliber players. Fantasy isn't all that hot right now either. Stork moving into the pr ahead of skyhigh and zero. Also maybe add jangbi into it for beating flash and humiliating piano.
But the main changes i expect to c is fantasy, zero, skyhigh moving down. Kespa (no dq in a while) and thezerg moving out of the pr. And stork and violet coming into the pr.
I don't know if you've seen their games but Jaedong is on par or better than Bisu this month. You can quote stats, win loss ratio, and get in a rut over a game, but their overall performance this month is what determines the rankings. And by performance, I mean in game performance, not the TLPD page. Erm, why are you ranking the top two players by their overall win ratio/ games won for the entire proleague season? That discounts a lot of important variables.
On June 05 2009 13:28 Avidkeystamper wrote: I don't know if you've seen their games but Jaedong is on par or better than Bisu this month. You can quote stats, win loss ratio, and get in a rut over a game, but their overall performance this month is what determines the rankings. And by performance, I mean in game performance, not the TLPD page. Erm, why are you ranking the top two players by their overall win ratio/ games won for the entire proleague season? That discounts a lot of important variables.
I agree with you, of course on how you determine your ranking, but what has Jaedong done better than Bisu? I think he's one par (they look effing unstoppable) but I'm not sure he's better.
On June 05 2009 13:28 Avidkeystamper wrote: I don't know if you've seen their games but Jaedong is on par or better than Bisu this month. You can quote stats, win loss ratio, and get in a rut over a game, but their overall performance this month is what determines the rankings. And by performance, I mean in game performance, not the TLPD page. Erm, why are you ranking the top two players by their overall win ratio/ games won for the entire proleague season? That discounts a lot of important variables.
Yes, i'm relying on statistics, but you said that jaedong is slightly ahead of bisu. Since they are on par, I am relying on statistics to say that bisu is slightly ahead of jaedong. The part where you say jaedong is better than bisu is totally being a oz fanboy. And let me tell you, I'm not a bisu fanboy but a khan toss fanboy. So I'm probably looking at this more objectively than you r.
Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
On June 05 2009 13:28 Avidkeystamper wrote: I don't know if you've seen their games but Jaedong is on par or better than Bisu this month. You can quote stats, win loss ratio, and get in a rut over a game, but their overall performance this month is what determines the rankings. And by performance, I mean in game performance, not the TLPD page. Erm, why are you ranking the top two players by their overall win ratio/ games won for the entire proleague season? That discounts a lot of important variables.
Yes, i'm relying on statistics, but you said that jaedong is slightly ahead of bisu. Since they are on par, I am relying on statistics to say that bisu is slightly ahead of jaedong. The part where you say jaedong is better than bisu is totally being a oz fanboy. And let me tell you, I'm not a bisu fanboy but a khan toss fanboy. So I'm probably looking at this more objectively than you r.
Uhhh, don't statistics show that Jaedong is ahead for this PR? Both lost 1 game, but Jaedong has won more games than Bisu. Also, Bisu's loss was a PL game that probably cost his team the match, while Jaedong's loss was 1 game in a Bo3 that he ended up winning.
On June 05 2009 13:28 Avidkeystamper wrote: I don't know if you've seen their games but Jaedong is on par or better than Bisu this month. You can quote stats, win loss ratio, and get in a rut over a game, but their overall performance this month is what determines the rankings. And by performance, I mean in game performance, not the TLPD page. Erm, why are you ranking the top two players by their overall win ratio/ games won for the entire proleague season? That discounts a lot of important variables.
What?
More games won is the only thing that separates them. Bisu`s in game performance have been just as good as Jaedongs. However Jaedong have played and won more games the last month and that should give him the benefit of doubt of who deserves the #1 rank since they are both in pretty much god mode nowadays laying waste to everyone who opposes them. Also Jaedong have to be given some credit for performing so well with his much larger workload.
The last game Bisu`s play was not top notch was vs Great where he lost obsers unnecessary when he was trying to break the contain causing him to halt the attack over and over. His play vs both Keke and Violet was very good regardless what some people here at TL might think.
On June 04 2009 20:10 Shikyo wrote: If Violet isn't on the PR, my head is going to explode. ^_^
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
of course it matters if you win 3-0 or 3-2, or 2-1 over 2-0. If you beat Bisu 3-2, then good job. If you 3-0 him, WOW. If you 2-1 against Jangbi, ok. If you 2-1 against jjonga, wtf?
Guess who went 2-1 againts jjonga...S class players should not be dropping those games.
Of course, but if it's JD 2-1 vs some noobie, you can't really call it poor performance since it's JD. The result is completely the same. In the end it doesn't matter. At all.
E: What I'm saying is, if JD goes 3-2 3-2 3-2, he still did better than if, say, Bisu did 3-0, 3-0, 2-3, even if JD lost a lot more games in total. In BoX's it really doesn't matter by how much you win, it only affects record and statistics, but 3-0 gets no extra benefit over 3-2.
On June 05 2009 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
If Bisu's play hasn't slacked off since that last Power Rank, shouldn't the defending #1 be given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this?
I remember in a PR after Incruit OSL, one of the reasons people were saying Stork should remain #1 over Bisu, was that Stork was defending #1 from the previous month, and his play hadn't dropped off as of then.
On June 04 2009 20:10 Shikyo wrote: If Violet isn't on the PR, my head is going to explode. ^_^
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
of course it matters if you win 3-0 or 3-2, or 2-1 over 2-0. If you beat Bisu 3-2, then good job. If you 3-0 him, WOW. If you 2-1 against Jangbi, ok. If you 2-1 against jjonga, wtf?
Guess who went 2-1 againts jjonga...S class players should not be dropping those games.
Of course, but if it's JD 2-1 vs some noobie, you can't really call it poor performance since it's JD. The result is completely the same. In the end it doesn't matter. At all.
E: What I'm saying is, if JD goes 3-2 3-2 3-2, he still did better than if, say, Bisu did 3-0, 3-0, 2-3, even if JD lost a lot more games in total. In BoX's it really doesn't matter by how much you win, it only affects record and statistics, but 3-0 gets no extra benefit over 3-2.
there is no benefit in terms of tournament progression... but for the purposes of the power rank where a single loss can tip you from 1st place to 3rd, it does.
3-0 shows u totally dominated ur opponent, whereas 3-2 shows that you just handled the pressure situation better at the end.
Its like if federer wins a major without dropping a single set, people would say that he cruised through it, total rape.. but if the games went to 5 sets nearly every game, then its not as dominating.
On June 05 2009 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
If Bisu's play hasn't slacked off since that last Power Rank, shouldn't the defending #1 be given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this?
I remember in a PR after Incruit OSL, one of the reasons people were saying Stork should remain #1 over Bisu, was that Stork was defending #1 from the previous month, and his play hadn't dropped off as of then.
On June 05 2009 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
If Bisu's play hasn't slacked off since that last Power Rank, shouldn't the defending #1 be given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this?
I remember in a PR after Incruit OSL, one of the reasons people were saying Stork should remain #1 over Bisu, was that Stork was defending #1 from the previous month, and his play hadn't dropped off as of then.
New writer, new rules.
Okay... Are you saying the JWD makes the Power Rank the same way as you would or something? You said that you think that Jaedong should be given the benefit of the doubt, due to an increased workload. I simply asked why should the benefit of the doubt not be given to the defending #1, when his play hasn't dropped off any.
On June 05 2009 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
If Bisu's play hasn't slacked off since that last Power Rank, shouldn't the defending #1 be given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this?
I remember in a PR after Incruit OSL, one of the reasons people were saying Stork should remain #1 over Bisu, was that Stork was defending #1 from the previous month, and his play hadn't dropped off as of then.
New writer, new rules.
Okay... Are you saying the JWD makes the Power Rank the same way as you would or something? You said that you think that Jaedong should be given the benefit of the doubt, due to an increased workload. I simply asked why should the benefit of the doubt not be given to the defending #1, when his play hasn't dropped off any.
Look at this month's PR, JD shouldve stayed at no1-2 and shouldve been given the benefit of the doubt here too, but he did not get it.
On June 05 2009 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
True that jaedong has played and won more games, but he also played and lost more games. But I'll agree with you that they're about the same, who is better will depend on opinion. I'll be darned if they arn't 1 2 in the PR, but bisu will probably get the 1st place because jwd is a skt fanboy (thezerg).
On June 05 2009 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote: Probably, but Jaedong has played and won more games. I guess that means nothing? Even when he took Leta in a straight-up game that wasn't close after 10 minutes in one of his good matchup. I guess I'm just giving Jaedong BoTD since he has dominated more frequently. I guess you're right, they're dominating the same and their level of gameplay is shockingly close, but I would give the nod to Jaedong simply because he has demonstrated that level of gameplay more often.
If Bisu's play hasn't slacked off since that last Power Rank, shouldn't the defending #1 be given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this?
I remember in a PR after Incruit OSL, one of the reasons people were saying Stork should remain #1 over Bisu, was that Stork was defending #1 from the previous month, and his play hadn't dropped off as of then.
New writer, new rules.
Okay... Are you saying the JWD makes the Power Rank the same way as you would or something? You said that you think that Jaedong should be given the benefit of the doubt, due to an increased workload. I simply asked why should the benefit of the doubt not be given to the defending #1, when his play hasn't dropped off any.
Look at this month's PR, JD shouldve stayed at no1-2 and shouldve been given the benefit of the doubt here too, but he did not get it.
I don't think he should have dropped to #4, but Jaedong did go 10-5 during the period between the end of Batoo and that power rank. Enough for any sensible person to not keep him at #1. In this case, I'm arguing that Bisu's performance hasn't dropped off any since last month, enough to make him fall. Therefore he should be given the benefit of the doubt in a close situation like this. Between the April and May Power Rank, Jaedong's performance clearly dropped off enough to make him fall, and that's why he dropped.
On June 05 2009 18:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gotta love those 67% win rate slumps.
God I hate Jaedong fanboys who say shit like that. Jaedong went 10-5 during that time period. Bisu went 9-1. Fantasy went 7-2. Not only did they have the better record, but they were playing better than Jaedong too! Why the hell should Jaedong have stayed at #1 when he clearly wasn't playing as good as those two, at that time? Thats why he fell in the ranks.
The circumstances that caused Jaedong to fall last month, would be completely different than what might cause Bisu to fall this month. There was no close call between Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy last month. There is a close call this month.
I'm far from a Jaedong fanboy. Just pointing out how crazy expectations of jaedong are when, directly after winning an OSL and maintaining a win rate equivalent to his regular, he still gets dropped to fourth and placed as second best zerg.
Jesus. I didn't even want Jaedong at number one you overreacting jerk.
In the end, both JD and Bisu are worthy choices and as long as they are #1 and #2 it will be alright. I actually don't care too much if one of them has 10-1 and the other one has 8-1... it really just shows that they are both awesome. Gameplay-wise I am normally more impressed with JD but sometimes he loses games because of really stupid mistakes or stubborness. Bisu on the other hand is rock solid and does nearly never make really big mistakes which cost him games. Eventually he just rolls over his opponents in the end since he is the superior player not because he creates big advantages early game. His PL-winrate is just so sick.
At least that is my opinion. If they meet in PL ace match, then the choice will be easy I guess.
I am a Flash fan, and don't really have a preference between Bisu and JD. I have also watched every game from both Bisu and Jaedong in the past month. It seems strange that there is any question who should be #1: Jaedong. They have performed similarly stats wise, but Jaedong's play has been much much better.
On June 04 2009 20:10 Shikyo wrote: If Violet isn't on the PR, my head is going to explode. ^_^
On June 04 2009 17:31 Jaeden wrote: ohh come on, if JD didnt play in gom his record would be 5-0 , with no lose to a noname. Gom counts as a minus to him not as a plus, so stop that.
Did you know that it makes NO difference at all whether you win a series 3-2 or 3-0. It just looks prettier and you might argue it's more dominant, but JD has always been losing the first games of a series. He's came back from behind to win most of the BOx wins he's had, if I recall correctly.
of course it matters if you win 3-0 or 3-2, or 2-1 over 2-0. If you beat Bisu 3-2, then good job. If you 3-0 him, WOW. If you 2-1 against Jangbi, ok. If you 2-1 against jjonga, wtf?
Guess who went 2-1 againts jjonga...S class players should not be dropping those games.
Of course, but if it's JD 2-1 vs some noobie, you can't really call it poor performance since it's JD. The result is completely the same. In the end it doesn't matter. At all.
E: What I'm saying is, if JD goes 3-2 3-2 3-2, he still did better than if, say, Bisu did 3-0, 3-0, 2-3, even if JD lost a lot more games in total. In BoX's it really doesn't matter by how much you win, it only affects record and statistics, but 3-0 gets no extra benefit over 3-2.
there is no benefit in terms of tournament progression... but for the purposes of the power rank where a single loss can tip you from 1st place to 3rd, it does.
3-0 shows u totally dominated ur opponent, whereas 3-2 shows that you just handled the pressure situation better at the end.
Its like if federer wins a major without dropping a single set, people would say that he cruised through it, total rape.. but if the games went to 5 sets nearly every game, then its not as dominating.
lol, that's a shitty example. NO, it's like Federer wins 6-0(all sets) in a single match, but losing the other one 3-2(sets), jeez!
I agree that 3-2 or 2-1 wins in a series can be a reason to demote someone in the PR. But you should be pretty sure that the player actually lost because of poor play.
We've seen Stork be really lazy, and we've seen Jaedong lose plenty of game 1's , only to come back and dominate. And cheese is cheese, and a well executed cheese is impossible to stop, by any player. So sometimes you can let a close series win slide.
***
You know what's annoying? Advocating for a player and then being accused of being a fanboy. It's honestly the dumbest possible way to get your point across, or discredit the other person. Don't be stupid.
I definitely think the end result is more important than the specifics. For example, luxury won an msl on 2-1/3-2 series. Thats better than compared to Jangbi at the time, who was winning 3-0 over everyone, but failed to get the title in the end. Nevertheless, there is a difference between 2-1 against hwasin and 2-1 against jjonga. Jaedong, by losing that game, did not meet S class expectations. Mind you, there are a myriad of examples of players doing poorly early on in the tournament, only sto shape up towards the end. Or putting more emphasis on pl over individual leagues, etc. I don't thinik the 2-1 against jjonga is horribly significant outside of the fact that Bisu and Jaedong are so close in results/skills, as of the last few months.
Just clarifying, and IMO if [hopefully! :D] jaedong vs Bisu happens in the ace match in PL, that will definitely prove it one way or the other.
Though I don't like Leta, I agree with the judgement, Kespa pronounced; you can't punish s.o. for doing nothing. Imo the one to blame is the KTF-coach, not Kespa.
On June 06 2009 03:13 Orbifold wrote: I am a Flash fan, and don't really have a preference between Bisu and JD. I have also watched every game from both Bisu and Jaedong in the past month. It seems strange that there is any question who should be #1: Jaedong. They have performed similarly stats wise, but Jaedong's play has been much much better.
But there are times when jaedong just doesn't seem solid. Bisu has just been playing rock solid every game.
Yep, that's the difference between them. Even though they are at the pinnacle of gaming, right now Jaedong's play can fluctuate to be even better or falter a little bit. It may be because he plays zerg. Bisu's play stays constant at a level of awesome. It may be because he plays protoss. I dunno, that's just the feeling I get for zergs and protossses.
lol, nope. That map is imbalanced. It had nothing to do with Bisu being better than Jaedong.
But it is good enough to put Bisu over Jaedong for this month's power rank without causing a shitstorm. The two are invariably close but I'd sell my right nut if JWD put Jaedong over Bisu.
jaedong lost for a couple of reasons. 'map imba' is not chief among them.
a key point is obviously his decision to build a group of mutas and go templar hunting, this had an impact in several key ways:
he could not produce a hydra army big enough to prevent the toss ball from securing a third, killing the lings jd had sent to shut it down. bisu's dragoon heavy army, good storms and good templar evasion prevented him from sniping enough templars to make the muta gambit worth it in and of itself. jaedong was busy controlling his mutas when bisu stormed his hydras, 2 storms hit very hard, killing about as many hydras as would fit under them before jaedong noticed.
this got jaedong in a position where he was unable to spare the units or attention to deny the toss 4th and ultimately to hold his own 4th.
the obs sniping and bisu electing to fight hydras with pure goon rather than reinforcing both delayed things, but ultimately bisu gained too much from jaedongs mutas and the 4 overlords he got at the start.
has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR? from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
On June 08 2009 03:57 ondik wrote: Cry more OZ fanboys.
most well structured and smartest post of the day, at the most appropriate place
OZ boys started pointless and unnecessary discussion here about thing that had been already discussed on 40 pages in oz vs sktt1 topic. Sorry to break the chain.
On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: I saw the actual game and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
This is true. Some people called it a rape and called bisu bonjwa etc and it triggered some legitamate reactions. As I said before, they have played games before and usually one side gets the early advantage and since both players are almost equally good there is almost no way out of it and the games turn out pretty onesided.
In a Bo5 today it could have gone either way, and some people don't seem to realize this when they say JD was raped and that bisu is obviously the best player, its just not true. Best way to deal with it is probably just to not say anything to those guys but its hard...
The talk about ZvP being his worst, well from his games lately I myself consider his ZvP to be his shakiest matchup, where he can either play god-mode or lose to bad players whereas his ZvT has been looking very solid all games expcept for the games vs fantasy and 2 cheesegames vs skyhigh. And Bisu said himself that his best matchup is ZvP. So when determining which of those two players are actually the best you cannot only look at the head to head matches. However for the powerrank, which is very based on monthly performance this naturally means that bisu will be ahead.
Abit jokingly I would say Bisu is lucky that he's not a zerguser^^
On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR? from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
That's why Bisu himself said the map favours protoss vs zerg a lot?
On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR? from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
Okay, look the map is imbalanced, we can point out why and where. It wasn't that relevant to last night's game, but you're an idiot if you think it isn't imbalanced for protoss. Please, use your brain.
Bisu won a hard fought game. He played like a baller, and he deserves #1. This is coming from the Chairman of the Jaedong for Bonjwa committee too . Jaedong at anything but #2 will send me flying into a nerd-rage special though.
On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR? from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
Okay, look the map is imbalanced, we can point out why and where. It wasn't that relevant to last night's game, but you're an idiot if you think it isn't imbalanced for protoss. Please, use your brain.
What's been irritating me is the word "imbalanced". It's merely "Protoss-favored" and I don't think that's just semantics. It's up to 40% now ZvP and the tangible disadvantages for Zerg on the map aren't exactly like recent truly "imbalanced" maps.
You'd be hard pressed to find a map that isn't at least 60% favored in any MU. No one has been calling Bisu Bonjwa or saying this finally ends the Bisu v Jaedong conversation, at least not in jest; but there have been plenty of posters who have placed far too much emphasis on the map as an excuse for one measly loss. Far more than it deserves, quite frankly.
Okay, I really don't care for political correctness, but I guess the PO way to say it is that HeartBreak Ridge is distinctively Protoss favored in the PvZ MU due to its strcutre. "No one has been calling Bisu Bonjwa or saying this finally ends the Bisu v Jaedong conversation, at least not in jest; " It's debatable. Honestly, I still have no idea why the hell Jaedong would cancel his spire.
On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR? from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
Okay, look the map is imbalanced, we can point out why and where. It wasn't that relevant to last night's game, but you're an idiot if you think it isn't imbalanced for protoss. Please, use your brain.
What's been irritating me is the word "imbalanced". It's merely "Protoss-favored" and I don't think that's just semantics. It's up to 40% now ZvP and the tangible disadvantages for Zerg on the map aren't exactly like recent truly "imbalanced" maps.
How is favoring one race not imbalanced? Those mean the exact same thing. Like how on Destination storm owns the bridges giving Protoss an edge, HBR's high ground leading into 4th expansion is storm heaven, not to mention the chokes. The mains are also excellent for slipping DT's in. It's an incredible map for Sair/Templar.
It's no BR but it's still quite imbalanced purely on design. The stats are just lucky Kal and Stork are sucking and that effort is awesome and July is still PvZ god. =)
Honestly, Bisu has the #1 slot pretty much locked up this week, fair or not (pretty obviously fair, but whatever), and we can pretty reasonably assume that JD will come in at #2 and EffOrt at #3. So why spend so much time arguing about this?
Instead, where the hell do you put fantasy? I mean, what is wrong with this kid? This is the current #2 ranked player, and he's losing all over the place right now. He probably doesn't deserve to fall out of the PR, but he should be around 7-10 right now, and I think Violet moves up even further. Flash is a very likely #4 (This top four would be ridiculous, very very evenly matched, imo). That puts Violet at #5 to me. (I think he proved his staying power this week by beating HoGiL who is no slouch in ZvP).
After that, I have no idea who else rounds out the next five. Stork, fantasy, and Leta all deserve spots, but have proven themselves inferior to the top five recently. And then Much is playing great too. Kwanro is also deserving.
On June 08 2009 08:33 tree.hugger wrote: Honestly, Bisu has the #1 slot pretty much locked up this week, fair or not (pretty obviously fair, but whatever), and we can pretty reasonably assume that JD will come in at #2 and EffOrt at #3. So why spend so much time arguing about this?
Instead, where the hell do you put fantasy? I mean, what is wrong with this kid? This is the current #2 ranked player, and he's losing all over the place right now. He probably doesn't deserve to fall out of the PR, but he should be around 7-10 right now, and I think Violet moves up even further. Flash is a very likely #4 (This top four would be ridiculous, very very evenly matched, imo). That puts Violet at #5 to me. (I think he proved his staying power this week by beating HoGiL who is no slouch in ZvP).
After that, I have no idea who else rounds out the next five. Stork, fantasy, and Leta all deserve spots, but have proven themselves inferior to the top five recently. And then Much is playing great too. Kwanro is also deserving.
and 'bout the map imbalance fo HBR: I don't see any... and just to think about + Show Spoiler +
-Bisu lost to Violet partially due position imbalance -Bisu had diarrea the day he played fantasy -everytime Bisu loses a game it's because the Illuminati have manipulated his mouse before...
For HBR, it's because the small choke to your natural makes it very easy for other races to pylon wall or supply wall in maybe a bunker/cannon contain if the zerg goes 12 Hatch. For PvZ, the structure of the map makes it easy for a protoss to get their 3rd since it is in a choke and fairly close to their natural but hard for a zerg to get their 4th base since all other expansions are far away and isolated due to the weird terrain of the map.
On June 08 2009 08:33 tree.hugger wrote: Honestly, Bisu has the #1 slot pretty much locked up this week, fair or not (pretty obviously fair, but whatever), and we can pretty reasonably assume that JD will come in at #2 and EffOrt at #3. So why spend so much time arguing about this?
Instead, where the hell do you put fantasy? I mean, what is wrong with this kid? This is the current #2 ranked player, and he's losing all over the place right now. He probably doesn't deserve to fall out of the PR, but he should be around 7-10 right now, and I think Violet moves up even further. Flash is a very likely #4 (This top four would be ridiculous, very very evenly matched, imo). That puts Violet at #5 to me. (I think he proved his staying power this week by beating HoGiL who is no slouch in ZvP).
After that, I have no idea who else rounds out the next five. Stork, fantasy, and Leta all deserve spots, but have proven themselves inferior to the top five recently. And then Much is playing great too. Kwanro is also deserving.
Pylon the choke? You mean like Wuthering or Tau Cross? I haven't tried it myself, but I think that choke is slightly too wide to be blocked by a single pylon.
The main imbalance for HBR is the harder to take 4th, which hardly effected the game. Bisu would have done what he did, forge FE into sair/templar, secure 3rd base, and push on any map. Jaedong would have gone 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra into muta snipe to secure 4th base on any map. Its just that Bisu outplayed Jaedong at the game, gained an advantage, and because the map is more imbalanced later on in the game, Jaedong really didn't have any shot at making a comeback.
On June 08 2009 11:46 Sentenal wrote: Pylon the choke? You mean like Wuthering or Tau Cross? I haven't tried it myself, but I think that choke is slightly too wide to be blocked by a single pylon.
The main imbalance for HBR is the harder to take 4th, which hardly effected the game. Bisu would have done what he did, forge FE into sair/templar, secure 3rd base, and push on any map. Jaedong would have gone 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra into muta snipe to secure 4th base on any map. Its just that Bisu outplayed Jaedong at the game, gained an advantage, and because the map is more imbalanced later on in the game, Jaedong really didn't have any shot at making a comeback.
Lets not forget that Jaedong lost 4 overlords in the early game while killing 0 corsairs, a tremendous setback for zerg. Also, I'm pretty sure that Stork blocked BackHo's counterattack temporarily in their game on HBR with just one pylon, although that may have just been because BackHo's army was made of comparatively larger dragoons.
EDIT: a friend of mine tells me that jaedong accidentally canceled his spire in that game.
All I responded to is the game who said he doesn't see any imbalance in the map. You guys need to seriously read and stop assuming every comment about imbalance is an excuse for last night's game.
Bisu beating Jaedong recently only makes them closer to a tie. Since Jaedong still has 7 wins to 6 losses to Bisu (Jaedong leading by 1 winning game).
The only thing that the game did was determine who the #1 PR and #2 for the next month will be.
I love Bisu as much as I love Jaedong but some of the Bisu fanboys on this thread makes me sick. They kept trying to argue that Bisu should remain in #1 place (before this match) when Jaedong had a better month record
But whatever, it was a good game, and I hope the new PR releases soon
On June 08 2009 13:28 AzureEye wrote: I love Bisu as much as I love Jaedong but some of the Bisu fanboys on this thread makes me sick. They kept trying to argue that Bisu should remain in #1 place (before this match) when Jaedong had a better month record
heh....bisu beating jaedong doesn't MAKE bisu better than jaedong, it is only evidence to SUPPORT bisu being better than jaedong.
if, after having digested the evidence from this last game, we must conclude bisu is probably better than jaedong at this exact moment, then bisu was probably better than jaedong two days ago also, before the match. and if bisu was better than jaedong before the match, i find it silly that such arguments would "make you sick."
If Bisu was better than Jaedong at a certain day, then wouldn't he also be better than him the day before? It's the heaps argument. Also, people including fans of Bisu were content that Jaedong was the canidate for number one before yesterday's match.
Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
You know, according to Bisu, he doesn't practice with Jaedong, and those practice games he was referring to were around a year ago, when Bisu first joined SKT1?
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
Or you can simply look at what happened within the last month to determine power rank, because that's usually how it is. I could care less if Bisu destroyed Jaedong on Andromeda 8-9 months ago with Sair/Reaver, or if Jaedong crushed Bisu a few months back in that GOM Classic.
Plus, who gives a shit who wins in practice games? Bisu can suck it up all he wants vs Jaedong in practice, but when it comes down to televised games, if he wins, then all that practice means absolutely shit.
At the end of the day, Bisu won last night vs Jaedong. And even if it was on a bullshit map called Heartbreak Ridge, in the end it still records as a W for Bisu. If they'd battled on God's Garden and Jaedong won, it'd still be a W for Jaedong and a L for Bisu.
At the end of the day, it's all about whether or not you can grab that W. If you can't, well good luck next time.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
It's an opinion. You don't have to go after everyone who's opinion doesn't match yours. Though that one is a bit awkward, I'll admit. Just saying to everyone (including JD fans), there's no need to get angry at an opinion, since we all know what the PR is probably going to look like.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
The 2 OSLs.
Flash is my favorite player but hell neither he nor Bisu has done what Jaedong has. 2 OSLs in this hyper competitive time is absolutely insane. Only Bonjwas, Garimto, and July have done as well.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
2 OSL's + 1 MSL > 3 MSL's easily
Not to mention, Jaedong overall career W-L ratio dominates Bisu's. Nobody touches him in this field unless someone corrects me. His achievement record is alot more decorated than Bisu's as well. Call me a fanboy, I could care less, but fact is a fact.
On June 08 2009 13:52 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Bisu was better than Jaedong at a certain day, then wouldn't he also be better than him the day before? It's the heaps argument. Also, people including fans of Bisu were content that Jaedong was the canidate for number one before yesterday's match.
yeah, you got it.
i mean even with this latest game it wouldn't be crazy to put jaedong at #1, just as it wouldn't have been crazy to put bisu at #1 before it.
This was just 1 game, it doesn't mean anything. If you know the game you could see that both players played rediculously good. Bisu played better that game, it doesn't mean that he would play better that day or the day after or the day before.
Watch their recent Bo5 and you will understand.
One game bisu looked simply untouchable, the second game he was completely raped by jaedong and it went on like that.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
The New York Yankees won 26 World Series. The New York Yankees have more famous players. In 2004, the Boston Red Sox won their sixth World Series, and DID beat the Yankees.
Clearly, in 2004, the New York Yankees were better than the Boston Red Sox.
...
In other words, your argument makes no sense whatsoever.
On June 08 2009 20:43 StylishVODs wrote: This was just 1 game, it doesn't mean anything. If you know the game you could see that both players played rediculously good. Bisu played better that game, it doesn't mean that he would play better that day or the day after or the day before.
Watch their recent Bo5 and you will understand.
One game bisu looked simply untouchable, the second game he was completely raped by jaedong and it went on like that.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
The 2 OSLs.
Flash is my favorite player but hell neither he nor Bisu has done what Jaedong has. 2 OSLs in this hyper competitive time is absolutely insane. Only Bonjwas, Garimto, and July have done as well.
only 2 OSLs? Sorry but Nada is clearly superior to JD..
This wouldnt had happen if the PR actually comes in 1 of june, its the same story avery month and PR. Last mont, Bisu, obviously was inferior to JD. But in june, Bisu take the first spot by winning directly. Next time the PR should come on 1 of the month or we have ridiculously results, like when Leta was 6h ot 7th but he had 17-4 or so, or Last PR when EffOrt had best results than people above him, or this month when Violet is tearing apart everyone going 14-1 in his Last 15 games.
It is really pathetic that this site can't have a power rank which comes out regularly, given its the myriad other features. There are dozens of people who could and would would write a good power rank the 1st of ever month.
You guys do realize that JWD is slowly trying to move the PR back to coming out on the 1st of the month right? He didn't want to release it on the 1st this month because that would only cover a 15 day period since this PR came out, which is why this month he said it would come out on the 10th. So stop bitching about the PR not coming out on the first of the month this time.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
The 2 OSLs.
Flash is my favorite player but hell neither he nor Bisu has done what Jaedong has. 2 OSLs in this hyper competitive time is absolutely insane. Only Bonjwas, Garimto, and July have done as well.
only 2 OSLs? Sorry but Nada is clearly superior to JD..
Yeah but Nada is overall the best player of all time even if he's been passed up by new talent, runner up goes to July.
JD's got 2 OSLs in a climate that surpasses all the previous great's level of skill. And a MSL for good measure! I mean hell Bisu hasn't even made an OSL final yet. Maybe the MSL is just his show and that takes away from his OSLs, but he's not even as accomplished as Fantasy in regards to the OSL.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
The 2 OSLs.
Flash is my favorite player but hell neither he nor Bisu has done what Jaedong has. 2 OSLs in this hyper competitive time is absolutely insane. Only Bonjwas, Garimto, and July have done as well.
only 2 OSLs? Sorry but Nada is clearly superior to JD..
Yeah but Nada is overall the best player of all time even if he's been passed up by new talent, runner up goes to July.
JD's got 2 OSLs in a climate that surpasses all the previous great's level of skill. And a MSL for good measure!
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
2 OSL's + 1 MSL > 3 MSL's easily
Not to mention, Jaedong overall career W-L ratio dominates Bisu's. Nobody touches him in this field unless someone corrects me. His achievement record is alot more decorated than Bisu's as well. Call me a fanboy, I could care less, but fact is a fact.
Career winrate: Jaedong 69% vs Bisu's 64% - a 5% difference. Given the 300+ games they've both played, that works out to a grand total of about 16 games difference. The only reason that's significanct here is that Jaedong has had to play relatively more games in his worst matchup. Well, as much as any player who's over 60% in all matchups (as both are) has a "worst" matchup.
But the power rank isn't mainly about career - it's about right now. And right now, when they're both ripping everyone to shreds, most people will agree than the head-to-head victory gives Bisu the number one nod - for this month.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
2 OSL's + 1 MSL > 3 MSL's easily
Not to mention, Jaedong overall career W-L ratio dominates Bisu's. Nobody touches him in this field unless someone corrects me. His achievement record is alot more decorated than Bisu's as well. Call me a fanboy, I could care less, but fact is a fact.
Career winrate: Jaedong 69% vs Bisu's 64% - a 5% difference. Given the 300+ games they've both played, that works out to a grand total of about 16 games difference. The only reason that's significanct here is that Jaedong has had to play relatively more games in his worst matchup. Well, as much as any player who's over 60% in all matchups (as both are) has a "worst" matchup.
But the power rank isn't mainly about career - it's about right now. And right now, when they're both ripping everyone to shreds, most people will agree than the head-to-head victory gives Bisu the number one nod - for this month.
Jaedong is 229-104 and bisu 205-113. 5% is pretty significant imo, specially the higher percentage they get. But it doesn't really matter whne it comes to who is the best player right now.
On June 08 2009 14:06 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Here's how we fix this. Jaedong seems to be doing better overall then Bisu. Bisu DID beat Jaedong yesterday, but their total record is 7-6 in favor of Jaedong. And according to Bisu, he rarely wins in practice games vs Jaedong.
Jaedong is better. I'm not a fanboy, but at this point in time, Jaedong is better.
What exactly makes Jaedong better?
BTW I just wanted to check... at this time... are you a fanboy of Jaedong? At this point in time.
2 OSL's + 1 MSL > 3 MSL's easily
Not to mention, Jaedong overall career W-L ratio dominates Bisu's. Nobody touches him in this field unless someone corrects me. His achievement record is alot more decorated than Bisu's as well. Call me a fanboy, I could care less, but fact is a fact.
Career winrate: Jaedong 69% vs Bisu's 64% - a 5% difference. Given the 300+ games they've both played, that works out to a grand total of about 16 games difference. The only reason that's significanct here is that Jaedong has had to play relatively more games in his worst matchup. Well, as much as any player who's over 60% in all matchups (as both are) has a "worst" matchup.
But the power rank isn't mainly about career - it's about right now. And right now, when they're both ripping everyone to shreds, most people will agree than the head-to-head victory gives Bisu the number one nod - for this month.
Jaedong is 229-104 and bisu 205-113. 5% is pretty significant imo, specially the higher percentage they get. But it doesn't really matter whne it comes to who is the best player right now.
Between 2008-06-07 and 2009-06-07 Jaedong is 115 wins - 46 losses (71.43%) Bisu is 105 wins - 41 losses (71.92%) They have both really kicking ass record recently. I think it is compareable. Bisu has worse overall record due to his slump period from 2007-06 to 2008-06 with only about 56% win rate.
On June 09 2009 04:17 DamageControL wrote: Having a slump means your career wasn't doing well in that point. So as to who has a better career, the 5% makes a difference
You are right about slump. But 5% overall does not have to mean that one is better than other or better career. For example, you could start with bad record at beginning, and have amazing record later on. If someone like JD has already really good record close to 70% win rate, you will have really hard time to catch up, even if you have 80% win rate for quite a while and being a better player in general. Does not get me wrong, I am not saying Bisu is better than JD. I think JD may slightly better overall. At moment they are compareable and dead even.
1) Bisu : dont argue. That game last night solidified it. They both have similar records, but that head to head match proved that Bisu should be #1. HBR is a little P favored, but you should NEVER cancel your spire, and let a sair kill 4 ovies...
2) JD: That game last night is the only reason why he's at 2. He's still the best Z in the world
3) Effort: Raping shit left and right. Look the FPL's largest contributor. Effort. yeah baby
4) Leta: Dont fucking argue this one. His 2 port wraith is raping shit left and right, and he has a KILLER SPL record
5) Flash: Playing good. Not great. Not his Bacchus OSL level of play. But that game vs Leta was pure art and the only reason why he's this high
6) SkyHigh: is playing great. idk what to say here, he's a solid solid player
7) Violet: going 8-0 in R4 PL including wins over Bisu ... oh yeah
8) Fantasy: did someone break this kids fingers? what is going on...
9) Kwanro: doing well..but not spectacular. He posted some serious results early this month
On June 09 2009 04:17 DamageControL wrote: Having a slump means your career wasn't doing well in that point. So as to who has a better career, the 5% makes a difference
You are right about slump. But 5% overall does not have to mean that one is better than other or better career. For example, you could start with bad record at beginning, and have amazing record later on. If someone like JD has already really good record close to 70% win rate, you will have really hard time to catch up, even if you have 80% win rate for quite a while and being a better player in general. Does not get me wrong, I am not saying Bisu is better than JD. I think JD may slightly better overall. At moment they are compareable and dead even.
What does signify a better career is titles, of which Jaedong is #1 and Bisu is #2 of the current top players. It's pretty hard to argue with Jaedong's winrate and better trophy case that he's had the better career, especially since he accomplished it in a shorter time.
Also if Zero can take third place last PR then I'd expect Violet to upset more than just Fantasy in the PR this month. If he takes his game against Woongjin on top of everything else I'd say he's definitely outperforming even Skyhigh lately. Possibly over Flash and Leta, too.
It could be exactly like that moment with Zero! "Since the first time since Flash bothered gracing the PR has someone else claimed top KT player on the PR!" It'd incite riots and everything.
On June 09 2009 04:17 DamageControL wrote: Having a slump means your career wasn't doing well in that point. So as to who has a better career, the 5% makes a difference
You are right about slump. But 5% overall does not have to mean that one is better than other or better career. For example, you could start with bad record at beginning, and have amazing record later on. If someone like JD has already really good record close to 70% win rate, you will have really hard time to catch up, even if you have 80% win rate for quite a while and being a better player in general. Does not get me wrong, I am not saying Bisu is better than JD. I think JD may slightly better overall. At moment they are compareable and dead even.
Speaking of percentages I've already posted it somewhere, will do it here as well. To give you example how good exactly JD and Bisu are...well over approximately 100 games, which is quite a long period of time, fantasy have around 55% win ratio, leta has near 60%, skyhigh doesnt even have 100 games in his record but his overall is somewhere around 60% as well, effort is the same story. JD however has 71% win ratio in his last 100 games and Bisu has even more- 75% (lol unexpected right?btw during his best 100 games savior had 68%)... This is a long period of time, and those two are holding their ground. If one of them didn't excited the other one would be considered easily the most dominant player of all time
It could be exactly like that moment with Zero! "Since the first time since Flash bothered gracing the PR has someone else claimed top KT player on the PR!" It'd incite riots and everything.
wasn't lux higher than flash just a month or two ago post MSL?
Also if Zero can take third place last PR then I'd expect Violet to upset more than just Fantasy in the PR this month. If he takes his game against Woongjin on top of everything else I'd say he's definitely outperforming even Skyhigh lately. Possibly over Flash and Leta, too.
It could be exactly like that moment with Zero! "Since the first time since Flash bothered gracing the PR has someone else claimed top KT player on the PR!" It'd incite riots and everything.
Personally I'm a huge Flash fanboy and won't bother denying it, but would not be upset to have Violet above him on the PR. Violet deserves it and it's nothing but great as a Flash fan to see KT getting some Protoss muscle.
On June 09 2009 12:12 Musoeun wrote: By the way, I fully expect this thread to hit 1000 comments in the next day. Quick, someone say something (else) controversial!
I can't understand why people keep repeating that Flash is in a slump. Since the last PR, he has gone 4-2, losing to Stork and JangBi on one awful night. Since then, he overwhelmed fantasy with flawless play, and beat Leta convincingly in a long game. Not to mention, he's beat the players he should normally beat. Flash hasn't been a devastating as... say, EffOrt, but how you can put Leta above him, especially after their recent head-to-head is beyond me.
Point is, Flash is not flashy, but he's winning. He deserves the number one Terran slot, I think that's fourth.
Honestly I haven't paid attention to any of Flash's games, or Leta's game, so I don't know how good they are compared to each other, but just by looking at results, Flash losing to both a slumping (or semi-slumping) Stork/Jangbi calls into question his TvP. That said, I'm too lazy too look up Leta's TvP for comparison. But apparently Leta cheats, so that would give him another advantage.
You guys should stop comparing Jaedong and Bisu. They're equal level and they are there to represent their race. If you say Jaedong is better than Bisu, its like saying Zerg is better than Protoss. They should be there to balance each other out. Enuff said
On June 09 2009 04:17 DamageControL wrote: Having a slump means your career wasn't doing well in that point. So as to who has a better career, the 5% makes a difference
You are right about slump. But 5% overall does not have to mean that one is better than other or better career. For example, you could start with bad record at beginning, and have amazing record later on. If someone like JD has already really good record close to 70% win rate, you will have really hard time to catch up, even if you have 80% win rate for quite a while and being a better player in general. Does not get me wrong, I am not saying Bisu is better than JD. I think JD may slightly better overall. At moment they are compareable and dead even.
Speaking of percentages I've already posted it somewhere, will do it here as well. To give you example how good exactly JD and Bisu are...well over approximately 100 games, which is quite a long period of time, fantasy have around 55% win ratio, leta has near 60%, skyhigh doesnt even have 100 games in his record but his overall is somewhere around 60% as well, effort is the same story. JD however has 71% win ratio in his last 100 games and Bisu has even more- 75% (lol unexpected right?btw during his best 100 games savior had 68%)... This is a long period of time, and those two are holding their ground. If one of them didn't excited the other one would be considered easily the most dominant player of all time
Blasphemy!
Iloveoov is easily the most dominant player of all time. His first 97 games up to the Gillette semi finals he went 77-20 for a 79.38% winrate including no losses vs Zerg (still at 77% if you include the first 3 games of Gillette). In addition he won himself 3 MSLs and 1 OSL + an OSL 3rd place during his first 1,5 year or so of playing. Up til after he won EVER he was still sitting at a 70,4% winrate over 160+ games. A true beast.
On June 09 2009 14:10 tree.hugger wrote: I can't understand why people keep repeating that Flash is in a slump. Since the last PR, he has gone 4-2, losing to Stork and JangBi on one awful night. Since then, he overwhelmed fantasy with flawless play, and beat Leta convincingly in a long game. Not to mention, he's beat the players he should normally beat. Flash hasn't been a devastating as... say, EffOrt, but how you can put Leta above him, especially after their recent head-to-head is beyond me.
Point is, Flash is not flashy, but he's winning. He deserves the number one Terran slot, I think that's fourth.
4-2 is not so good, but I'd be more concerned with Flash failing hard at his non-mirror matches. The last good Zerg he beat was YellOw[arnc], at the beginning of March. The last good Protoss he beat was Kal, in February. And he's only about even with the other top TvT players, most of whom can beat good players in more than one match-up...
Skyhigh and Leta could reasonably be placed above him.
On June 09 2009 14:10 tree.hugger wrote: I can't understand why people keep repeating that Flash is in a slump. Since the last PR, he has gone 4-2, losing to Stork and JangBi on one awful night. Since then, he overwhelmed fantasy with flawless play, and beat Leta convincingly in a long game. Not to mention, he's beat the players he should normally beat. Flash hasn't been a devastating as... say, EffOrt, but how you can put Leta above him, especially after their recent head-to-head is beyond me.
Point is, Flash is not flashy, but he's winning. He deserves the number one Terran slot, I think that's fourth.
4-2 is not so good, but I'd be more concerned with Flash failing hard at his non-mirror matches. The last good Zerg he beat was YellOw[arnc], at the beginning of March. The last good Protoss he beat was Kal, in February. And he's only about even with the other top TvT players, most of whom can beat good players in more than one match-up...
Skyhigh and Leta could reasonably be placed above him.
On June 09 2009 14:10 tree.hugger wrote: I can't understand why people keep repeating that Flash is in a slump. Since the last PR, he has gone 4-2, losing to Stork and JangBi on one awful night. Since then, he overwhelmed fantasy with flawless play, and beat Leta convincingly in a long game. Not to mention, he's beat the players he should normally beat. Flash hasn't been a devastating as... say, EffOrt, but how you can put Leta above him, especially after their recent head-to-head is beyond me.
Point is, Flash is not flashy, but he's winning. He deserves the number one Terran slot, I think that's fourth.
4-2 is not so good, but I'd be more concerned with Flash failing hard at his non-mirror matches. The last good Zerg he beat was YellOw[arnc], at the beginning of March. The last good Protoss he beat was Kal, in February. And he's only about even with the other top TvT players, most of whom can beat good players in more than one match-up...
Skyhigh and Leta could reasonably be placed above him.
Just a few weeks ago, it was Flash's TvT that was said to be failing. He must've been practicing that too much recently (And right now his TvT seems invincible.)
It can be argued that Flash is in a semi-slump against Z. He recently lost to Jaedong, though so did Leta. He lost to Effort, but so does everyone else right now. I'm actually more worried about his two recent games on Destination which both left something to be desired. I get the impression Flash is trying too hard to play nonstandard. He should quit trying to copy Fantasy's (third most overrated player ever) shitty builds and take a hint from Leta or Hwasin instead. Flash has the control and game sense to play straight-up TvZ as well as any other player.
Flash had a bad day against Stork and JangBi; this by no way means he can't beat good P's. But yeah, he needs to do it.
Leta recently lost to Bisu, Jaedong and Flash, in that order; it's hard to argue that he's doing better than Flash against top players right now. Whether or not one only counts the most recent results, Flash's weakest matchup (vZ) remains stronger than Leta's weakest (vP). Leta is definitely not more likely than Flash to beat a top P.
I haven't watched Skyhigh closely enough to have a strong opinion. From the statistics, his TvZ looks very strong (only two recent losses on possibly slightly Z favored God's Garden). He has a good recent record against P, but not against any good player except possibly Kal (sorry Best, you suck). I see no evidence that he's stronger vs top P's than Flash is.
Fantasy, as already mentioned, sucks. A bunch of other terrans are doing decently right now, but honestly don't have that much to show.
In conclusion, given Flash's mirror form, I think he deserves to be promoted back to #1 terran. He has to up his game one level to challenge Bisu and Jaedong, though. Effort is given at #3.
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
Only if you don't consider GOM proof that Jaedong is better
Nah i just consider taht game not really valuable information, since jaedong accidently canceled his spire. So basing any information on who is better atm from that game is wrong;) They're equally good but im a jaedong fan so i say hes better.
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
like Savior and Lux forgetting ling upgrade made them worse players?
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
No its not;) He made a mistake he normally doesnt do. If he makes that mistake 1 game out of 100 and that one game leads to defeat it doesnt matter much..
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
Just like bisu not holding the ramp on andromeda? Yup, that's clear evidence to me that Jaedong> Bisu. That's the end of it. You see how stupid this logic is with my counterexample, right?
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
like Savior and Lux forgetting ling upgrade made them worse players?
Actually, yes, if it cost them games. Stork forgetting goon range would make him a "worse" player if it cost him the game. Bisu losing that probe retardedly, only to get raped by lings made him a "worse" player if it cost him the game. Players making dumb mistakes that cost them the game obviously is a negative reflection upon them.
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
like Savior and Lux forgetting ling upgrade made them worse players?
Actually, yes, if it cost them games. Stork forgetting goon range would make him a "worse" player if it cost him the game. Bisu losing that probe retardedly, only to get raped by lings made him a "worse" player if it cost him the game. Players making dumb mistakes that cost them the game obviously is a negative reflection upon them.
Yeah but the whole issue here is comparing two players. Jaedong does a mistake in a game, that he rarely ever does. This game he ends up losing. That doesn't make his opponent a better player than him.
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
Only if you don't consider GOM proof that Jaedong is better
Nah i just consider taht game not really valuable information, since jaedong accidently canceled his spire. So basing any information on who is better atm from that game is wrong;) They're equally good but im a jaedong fan so i say hes better.
Which means you can't consider Jaedong's GOM Bo5 win valuable information since it was entirely because of a simple probe mistake.
"So basing any information on who is better atm from that game is wrong;)"
yeah i read it. finally i dont have to defend jaedong anymore from people calling bisu better;)
also, disciple yeah 70+ % over the last 100 games is rediculous. If there could be 2 bonjwas at the same time, bisu and jaedong would be it.
Only player who was ever more dominant was iloveoov, as mentioned, but it was so long ago and the skill is so much higher right now that jaedong and bisu's dominance is even more unlikely.
I think its proof that bisu is better than jaedong, who makes a noob mistake like canceling a spire. In a progame, some mistakes you just can't make and jaedong made one of those mistakes.
like Savior and Lux forgetting ling upgrade made them worse players?
Actually, yes, if it cost them games. Stork forgetting goon range would make him a "worse" player if it cost him the game. Bisu losing that probe retardedly, only to get raped by lings made him a "worse" player if it cost him the game. Players making dumb mistakes that cost them the game obviously is a negative reflection upon them.
Yeah but the whole issue here is comparing two players. Jaedong does a mistake in a game, that he rarely ever does. This game he ends up losing. That doesn't make his opponent a better player than him.
I'm not really sure where you are coming from.
Are you saying that since Jaedong doesn't normally make mistakes like that, the loss shouldn't count? Or are you just saying that since it was just a dumb mistake that shouldn't reflect upon comparing who is better between Bisu and Jaedong?
If it is the latter, would you say the same thing about Bisu's dumb mistake in game 5 of their GOM show match?
Yeah i meant that since it was just a dumb mistake that shouldn't reflect upon comparing who is better between Bisu and Jaedong.
Same goes for 5th game of the Bo5 ofcourse. That game didn't determine anything. These players are pretty much equal atm, and all their games turn out pretty onesided too.
On June 10 2009 09:40 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah i meant that since it was just a dumb mistake that shouldn't reflect upon comparing who is better between Bisu and Jaedong.
Same goes for 5th game of the Bo5 ofcourse. That game didn't determine anything. These players are pretty much equal atm, and all their games turn out pretty onesided too.
yeah, including the game between each other. lol. Bisu> Jaedong, decided by that game.
Look, every win is by making less mistakes than your opponent, be they dumb mistakes or subtle ones. Jaedong made more mistakes by Bisu, lost the game, and therefore determined his inferiority, as he has shown more flaws in his play ATM.
Effort just beat Jaedong. Should Jaedong still be above Effort? Effort's only recent losses were to Mind, and Bisu. And according to Jaedong logic, since Effort still finished out the series 2-1, the loss to Mind doesn't count. I'm thinking Bisu Effort Jaedong for top 3 now.
note: maybe jaedong match will go to ace match for jaedong to get another shot, but that would be jaedong's only option to not be #3 imo
Does this change anything? Methinks not, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to call. This kid will win a star-league this year. Guaranteed.
It's possible, it is a legitimately tough call. The deciding point will have been their game vs each other, but will it be enough? It really all depends on JWD, but I think the way he writes and analyzes players, Effort will have a really good change at being #2 on the 10th. He won't be winning any Starleagues in my opinion, though. Heavily untested in the individuals.
On June 10 2009 13:27 tree.hugger wrote: EffOrt > Jaedong.
Does this change anything? Methinks not, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to call. This kid will win a star-league this year. Guaranteed.
On June 10 2009 13:27 tree.hugger wrote: EffOrt > Jaedong.
Does this change anything? Methinks not, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to call. This kid will win a star-league this year. Guaranteed.
Jaedong is clearly the better player overall. He just utterly destroyed Skyhigh in the ace match.
Moral of the story tonight: Bisu and Jaedong go 1-1, both winning impressive games in Ace after disappointing in earlier games. But Effort beat Jaedong, so thats gonna make things tricky ranking the top 3.
I like how both Stork and Luxury are playing well again just in time to make the PR. Also, after the ace game, I would be surprised to see Effort above Jaedong. Not that it isn't close, I just don't see it. The telling thing is the workload and how effectively Jaedong handles it.
I'd go with something like this: #1 (P)Bisu -playing incredible, beat Jaedong therefore goes top #2 (Z)Jaedong -still awesome, definitely deserves no.2 #3 (Z)EffOrt - fantastic record this month #4 (T)Flash - only losses come against strong players, beat Leta recently #5 (T)Leta - looks right back on form #6 (P)Stork - beat his rival Bisu and only lost to Effort this month #7 (T)fantasy - poor month by his recent standards #8 (P)Violet - playing very well recently, beat Bisu this month #9 (T)sKyHigh - has been playing well this month #10 (Z)Kwanro - lots of wins this month, but hasn't been tested against the best
Effort is on a winning rate only seen by the likes of Flash in recent history (23-3 is actually exactly the record he had when he was on top of a previous PR). He is absolutely dominating. If we're going by sheer record, he should actually be over Bisu at this point, who's only 17-3.
Also Effort has a very similar workload to Jaedong. He's in Gom, he's his Team's ace, and while his team isn't AS reliant on him he's definitely the second hardest worked zerg around next to Jaedong.
I personally wouldn't put him over Jaedong, as Jaedong has had particularly harder match ups in the games he's lost for the most part, but I wouldn't pitch a fit if he took #2 from Jaedong this month, unlike the Zero fiasco.
He's not gonna take #1 from Bisu though. Nearly a foregone conclusion with this PR.
On June 10 2009 16:55 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort is on a winning rate only seen by the likes of Flash in recent history (23-3 is actually exactly the record he had when he was on top of a previous PR). He is absolutely dominating. If we're going by sheer record, he should actually be over Bisu at this point, who's only 17-3.
Also Effort has a very similar workload to Jaedong. He's in Gom, he's his Team's ace, and while his team isn't AS reliant on him he's definitely the second hardest worked zerg around next to Jaedong.
I personally wouldn't put him over Jaedong, as Jaedong has had particularly harder match ups in the games he's lost for the most part, but I wouldn't pitch a fit if he took #2 from Jaedong this month, unlike the Zero fiasco.
He's not gonna take #1 from Bisu though. Nearly a foregone conclusion with this PR.
I wouldn't say Effort is CJ's Ace. They played Kwanro against STX Soul and of course Skyhigh against Oz. The fact that CJ didn't put Effort up against Jaedong in the Ace match shows that they didn't believe he stood a decent chance of winning.
Common now. Put violet over Bisu pls. It would make as much sense as putting Effort over JD. Putting Zero over JD was ridiculous enough, don't make the same mistake two months in a row. I mean Jaedong is the only Zerg who's been consistent for almost two years. Effort is a great player,but until he dethrones JD in a series,or wins a championship,he should NEVER be above JD. Same for every Zerg. The same goes with every Protoss player. Until Bisu gets eliminated from all the leagues and loses a bo5 P v P,there should be no Protoss above him. My list for this month would be 1.Bisu 2.Jaedong 3.Effort 4.Flash 5.Leta 6.Violet 7.Stork 8. Fantasy 9. Kespa again 10. Calm
On June 10 2009 16:55 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort is on a winning rate only seen by the likes of Flash in recent history (23-3 is actually exactly the record he had when he was on top of a previous PR). He is absolutely dominating. If we're going by sheer record, he should actually be over Bisu at this point, who's only 17-3.
Also Effort has a very similar workload to Jaedong. He's in Gom, he's his Team's ace, and while his team isn't AS reliant on him he's definitely the second hardest worked zerg around next to Jaedong.
I personally wouldn't put him over Jaedong, as Jaedong has had particularly harder match ups in the games he's lost for the most part, but I wouldn't pitch a fit if he took #2 from Jaedong this month, unlike the Zero fiasco.
He's not gonna take #1 from Bisu though. Nearly a foregone conclusion with this PR.
I wouldn't say Effort is CJ's Ace. They played Kwanro against STX Soul and of course Skyhigh against Oz. The fact that CJ didn't put Effort up against Jaedong in the Ace match shows that they didn't believe he stood a decent chance of winning.
Yeah and Hite has played Yellow[Arnc], SKT1 has played Best, KTF plays ForGG -- that doesn't make these people the team's ace in general. Jaedong on Oz is one of the few teams where he will almost always be the Ace because he's the only one on their team capable of beating other aces. Other teams, like the ones mentioned, have some "a" class players but that doesn't stop the team's true top player from being their ace.
Bisu and Jaedong lost, Jaedong to the then presumable #3 player, but then they both won Ace, also Skyhigh lost 2 in a row when he was a shoe in for the rank. What the hell Stork weasling his way back in somewhere I guess?
On June 10 2009 17:13 JWD wrote: So does anyone want to talk about how much tonight's PL results fucked with what looked like a pretty simple PR just a few hours ago?
I don't really think it made much difference. In fact it made some things easier. Stork now definitely makes top 10 whilst Jangbi doesn't. Fantasy gets it together and retains a respectable spot. Flash wins again to cement a high spot. Violet shows what we all knew anyway; that he isn't a proven winner yet, so he gets a low spot.
You simply CANNOT put Effort above Jaedong. When Jaedong was beating entire teams in the winners league, Effort could barely win a game. Jaedong also took the match for Oz anyway, beating SkyHigh in the ace. CJ had the advantage of knowing for sure that Jaedong would play in the ace and still they couldn't beat him. And how about that ace win against Leta, that was great too.
Light is also a good contender for no10/9 spot + CNBC. He went 6-0 in PL with solid play including a win over Zero in BR. His play in OSL was not impressive at all though, his builds were quite terrible, and Yarnc mauled him, but again, Yarnc is playing the best ZvT right now vs mech. So look at him JWD before making it. Top 3 is though: 1)BIsu 2)JD 3)Effort
This is no question. Also the following players are on the PR for sure: Violet,Stork,Flash,Leta,Fantasy
effort is on a streak, can he keep it up? im not so sure about that.
If jaedong/bisu was performing abit worse than normal, i'd put effort on nr1, but both jaedong and bisu are still owning it up, its just that this month efforts records alone is abit better than both of them. effort should take the 3rd spot and if he continues for another month he might take a higher spot IF he keeps getting better results than jaedong and bisu.
for a newcomer to be ranked above bisu and jaedong when they're perfoming as good as this, he needs to atleast win a title or to beat jaedong or bisu in a Bo5. I admit that its a hard choice, because efforts results lately is pretty rediculous. But you have to face the fact that we have the two modern bonjwas playing extremely well right now.
On June 10 2009 17:13 JWD wrote: So does anyone want to talk about how much tonight's PL results fucked with what looked like a pretty simple PR just a few hours ago?
I don't really think it made much difference. In fact it made some things easier. Stork now definitely makes top 10 whilst Jangbi doesn't. Fantasy gets it together and retains a respectable spot. Flash wins again to cement a high spot. Violet shows what we all knew anyway; that he isn't a proven winner yet, so he gets a low spot.
You simply CANNOT put Effort above Jaedong. When Jaedong was beating entire teams in the winners league, Effort could barely win a game. Jaedong also took the match for Oz anyway, beating SkyHigh in the ace. CJ had the advantage of knowing for sure that Jaedong would play in the ace and still they couldn't beat him. And how about that ace win against Leta, that was great too.
While I agree EffOrt shouldn't be above JD on the basis of one game, this PR isn't about the Winners League. If you base it purely on current PL results, Bisu beat both JD and EffOrt, EffOrt beat JD but not Bisu, and JD lost to both the other two. With all three on similar streaks, Bisu > EffOrt > Jaedong isn't too off the wall even if Jaedong won the ace and Effort wasn't even sent out.
Of course, if you incorporate leagues (which I'm assuming you agree we should)... Jaedong and Bisu are heavy favorites to win OSL and MSL (and, for Jaedong, GOM), while EffOrt - because he's relatively new - is behind Flash at the least, and possibly players like Leta, Stork, and even fantasy as well. The distance in individual leagues means - to me at least - that Jaedong still is way ahead of Effort.
On June 10 2009 17:13 JWD wrote: So does anyone want to talk about how much tonight's PL results fucked with what looked like a pretty simple PR just a few hours ago?
I don't really think it made much difference. In fact it made some things easier. Stork now definitely makes top 10 whilst Jangbi doesn't. Fantasy gets it together and retains a respectable spot. Flash wins again to cement a high spot. Violet shows what we all knew anyway; that he isn't a proven winner yet, so he gets a low spot.
You simply CANNOT put Effort above Jaedong. When Jaedong was beating entire teams in the winners league, Effort could barely win a game. Jaedong also took the match for Oz anyway, beating SkyHigh in the ace. CJ had the advantage of knowing for sure that Jaedong would play in the ace and still they couldn't beat him. And how about that ace win against Leta, that was great too.
While I agree EffOrt shouldn't be above JD on the basis of one game, this PR isn't about the Winners League. If you base it purely on current PL results, Bisu beat both JD and EffOrt, EffOrt beat JD but not Bisu, and JD lost to both the other two. With all three on similar streaks, Bisu > EffOrt > Jaedong isn't too off the wall even if Jaedong won the ace and Effort wasn't even sent out.
Of course, if you incorporate leagues (which I'm assuming you agree we should)... Jaedong and Bisu are heavy favorites to win OSL and MSL (and, for Jaedong, GOM), while EffOrt - because he's relatively new - is behind Flash at the least, and possibly players like Leta, Stork, and even fantasy as well. The distance in individual leagues means - to me at least - that Jaedong still is way ahead of Effort.
I was just using Winners League as an example of how Jaedong has been consistently excellent and that you have to take that into consideration. Other examples are the fact he's OSL champion, all the other pro-gamers think he's amazing and Oz are somehow no.1 in the Proleague despite JD being their only viable Ace.
On June 10 2009 17:13 JWD wrote: So does anyone want to talk about how much tonight's PL results fucked with what looked like a pretty simple PR just a few hours ago?
Yeah, I imagined you there with the PR all written, ready to post it and hear a chorus of adulation... Then last night happened.
I still think the top four are what they've been. Bisu and Jaedong both redeemed themselves with strong ACE match wins. They're allowed to lose once in a while, and to lose to Stork and EffOrt is not the end of the world. I think Violet and sKyHigh suffered more in this last set, they probably sink a little bit due to their losses.
On June 10 2009 17:13 JWD wrote: So does anyone want to talk about how much tonight's PL results fucked with what looked like a pretty simple PR just a few hours ago?
I just dont see why Flash on 4th. Even Stork was doing better than him. They are both 7-3 in their last 10, Stork's opponents are probably tougher, including a win against Flash, and he has an upcoming match in the OSL whihc should be a walk in the park. Flash's TvT looked as it should, he did not play vZ (which is suppoused to be his worst mu) too much, and got wiped out by the Khan tosses, even dropped a game against Shuttle, though he beat him after all, so that's not a big deal. But still, Stork > Flash right now. Violet on 7th is fine, Fantasy on 8th as well, 9th 10th places are hard to give out as always.
These recent games dont really change anything. Bisu and JD lost one game against a tough opponent while they had to practice for the ace match as well, totally acceptable losses. So we remain with the Bisu > JD HB'sR game, which determins the first two palces. IF Effort was better than JD, they would have sent him on Desti. CJ coaches arent as dumb as SKT's, they send for the ace match the one who has the most chanse against JD, Skyhigh. And he lost too. + Show Spoiler +
(I'm 99% sure Effort would have lost, JD looked really angry and played insanely well in the ace game)
On June 11 2009 02:23 Geo.Rion wrote: I just dont see why Flash on 4th. Even Stork was doing better than him. They are both 7-3 in their last 10, Stork's opponents are probably tougher, including a win against Flash, and he has an upcoming match in the OSL whihc should be a walk in the park. Flash's TvT looked as it should, he did not play vZ (which is suppoused to be his worst mu) too much, and got wiped out by the Khan tosses, even dropped a game against Shuttle, though he beat him after all, so that's not a big deal. But still, Stork > Flash right now. Violet on 7th is fine, Fantasy on 8th as well, 9th 10th places are hard to give out as always.
These recent games dont really change anything. Bisu and JD lost one game against a tough opponent while they had to practice for the ace match as well, totally acceptable losses. So we remain with the Bisu > JD HB'sR game, which determins the first two palces. IF Effort was better than JD, they would have sent him on Desti. CJ coaches arent as dumb as SKT's, they send for the ace match the one who has the most chanse against JD, Skyhigh. And he lost too. + Show Spoiler +
(I'm 99% sure Effort would have lost, JD looked really angry and played insanely well in the ace game)
Good post, I think maybe you're right. I guess a part of me thought Stork had lost it when Jangbi showed him up in the OSL, but beating Bisu proves that just isn't the case. It's especially impressive since Bisu had recently said Stork was his rival. You think he'd make sure he won that game :p My reasoning for putting Flash high is.. because he's Flash. He has the best overall record of the Terran players and he did beat Fantasy, Leta and Skyhigh this month. However, I would totally cool with Stork at 4 because he is an awesome player.. a genius in fact.
I'd put Flash at 4, simply because after beating Leta and fantasy, I simply can't put another Terran above him. Stork has been strong of late as well, I don't think the difference between them is all that great, so it's a judgement call really, #4-6 could be moved around.
fantasy above sKyHigh because fantasy beat JangBi lastnight, and sKyHigh failed terribly.
I agree with the above posters. The games tonight should not change anything: Bisu>JD>Effort. Bisu and JD both did not disappoint, they lost against great players (every once in a while, JD has to lose a zvz) and showed excellent performances in the ace-matches. Effort may be in unbelievable shape right now, but he has yet to prove himself in individual leagues before a slightly better record may put him above the other two. More so when these have been sucessful go-to guys for their teams the entire month.
On a different note, I believe you should place Stork high (maybe around #5). He has a good record and you can easily see that he gets his shit together again. The win against Bisu was of course a little favoured by a positional advantage, but he also played flawlessly (while Bisu was making mistakes). I was really impressed.
On June 11 2009 05:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: Yeah, I really don't see Fantasy being above Skyhigh. He's just underperformed too much this month for one game to wipe that away.
Well let's not forget his impressive OSL performances and the fact he was 6-0 last month (excluding the final).
On June 11 2009 05:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: Yeah, I really don't see Fantasy being above Skyhigh. He's just underperformed too much this month for one game to wipe that away.
Well let's not forget his impressive OSL performances and the fact he was 6-0 last month (excluding the final).
So? We don't care what happened two months ago, we only care about what happened last month. :p
On June 11 2009 05:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: Yeah, I really don't see Fantasy being above Skyhigh. He's just underperformed too much this month for one game to wipe that away.
Well let's not forget his impressive OSL performances and the fact he was 6-0 last month (excluding the final).
So? We don't care what happened two months ago, we only care about what happened last month. :p
Not entirely true, but stuff that happened last month is definitely more important than two months ago.
On June 11 2009 09:10 SuperArc wrote: Btw what happened with the project of pushing the PR release date closer to the beginning of the month?
It's the 11th already. (forum time)
Sorry, I meant the 10th my time (PDT). And yes, the PR is imminent. Keep in mind that last month's was published on the 15th, so I am sticking to my promise of pushing the release date closer to the first.
Also consider that several huge (HUGE) games were played last night that, if not included in the rank, would make it pretty freaking boring (not that many games have been played since last rank, since offlines and MST are done but OSL Ro16 and MSL haven't started yet).
Yeah the only complicated thing about today really is that Kal deserves a spot. The top 3 are still obvious, even with Bisu dropping a game, and we all know Leta-Flash-Skyhigh-Fantasy are getting spots, along with Stork and Violet. So instead of Kwanro or some other fairly well off player we get a recently well performing Kal.
I have some slightly disappointing news about this month's rank: I finished writing it last night (several hours before MSL games), but because of some logistical problems it (obviously) wasn't published. Preventing these problems was within my capacity, so I apologize.
I know I promised a June 10 release, and I'm really sorry to have to back off on that promise - but given the results of last night's MSL games, I will need to rewrite some of my rank. That means you'll see it sometime later today. I know the delay is frustrating (and makes me look foolish ) but at this point I think delaying the rank a bit longer is worth making sure that it's up to date considering last night's games. Again, I'm sorry (I really hate missing deadlines!).
Well I don't like the idea of changing the Power Rank that has already been made. I mean what if Jaedong loses in the MSL too? And Bisu wasn't eliminated,so I don't see any reason why JD should be no1 after tonight because that changed absolutely nothing. And although Effort did advance 2-0 tonight, he is not there yet to be no1. Anyway, good luck with changing the PR JWD,I know it's a shitty job, and is hard,but try predicting something too,not just make ranks based on performances. So good luck,just please don't change the rank again tomorrow if Stork happens to get eliminated from the OSL.
On June 12 2009 02:40 SuperArc wrote: JD won't be no1, don't worry. But I don't see why Effort shouldn't take #1.
I wouldn't worry,I love both JD and Bisu. Hell, I love Effort too,but considering the ass-whooping Bisu gave him and the fact that both Bisu and JD have been total monsters lately and neither is dropped from any leagues yet, dropping only few games themselves, I don't see how Effort could be no1 until he truly proves himself in the leagues(ro16 is not enough), or both Bisu and JD are starting to lose more games and dropping out of leagues.
On June 12 2009 02:14 JWD wrote: I have some slightly disappointing news about this month's rank: I finished writing it last night (several hours before MSL games), but because of some logistical problems it (obviously) wasn't published. Preventing these problems was within my capacity, so I apologize.
I know I promised a June 10 release, and I'm really sorry to have to back off on that promise - but given the results of last night's MSL games, I will need to rewrite some of my rank. That means you'll see it sometime later today. I know the delay is frustrating (and makes me look foolish ) but at this point I think delaying the rank a bit longer is worth making sure that it's up to date considering last night's games. Again, I'm sorry (I really hate missing deadlines!).
At least JWD says he's sorry, not sg like "dont whine you fools i'm the king bitch of the universe i do what i want", i have confidence he wont put s1 who did not see the ro8 yet on nr 1 rank, tonight's changes should be regarding Kal probably and a couple extra comments on the players here and there.
Also congratulation for your TL icon, JWD, i'm hoping for a good PR
bisu should still be number 1. Jaedong lost a game in pl, then won in ace, bisu did the same. Bisu lost a game in msl, but beat Jaedong. There performances are essentially the same, just as they were a few days ago, but bisu is still the more well rounded player. Though effort and kal should probably go up/get on the PR given their recent play.
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
I'm pointing out his long run statistics, because I think they show that he is not just flavor of the week, but has been consistently dominant for some time now.
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
+ In the same period (4/19 to today), Bisu is 15-4 with a 79% WP. He's beaten Jaedong, Leta, EffOrt, ZerO and Calm in the same period. In the time since the last PR, he is 7-3. + Jaedong is actually 17-8 in the same span (4/19 to today) with a 68% WP. Wins against sKyHigh, Luxury, Leta, and Calm. In the time since the last PR, he is 9-3.
The way effort is play, I figure it's inevitable he will take the #1 power rank at some point... He reminds me of a young Savior or Jaedong for that matter. So yeah, I don't think you would get nearly the same rage you did about Zero if you posted Effort at #2 or even #1 for that matter.
Also congrats on the blue, I figured it was only a matter of time. I remember you were associated with SC2gg though, did you abandon your duties/membership there?
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
So honestly, why not #1?
I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1.
At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time?
There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team.
Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
Effort's macro was utterly insane in that game versus Hiya. His game sense with the + Show Spoiler +
patience with stop lurker
was mind-blowing as well. I would not be surprised if he were to be placed above Jaedong and Bisu. He did win the toughest game to win, too, (Jaedong zvz) two days ago.
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
So honestly, why not #1?
it's simple, without a title you cannot be nr 1, really. Only exception were, Jangbi, because everyone sucked big time at that point, and the PR still recieved shitstorm and lasted for 14 days or so (and Jangbi at least had some silvers). And Mainfesto's Leta, but he explained what was his criteria, which is somewhat different from what we used to (and hell, it's still Manifesto, and produced some of the most awesome reasoning of the PR overall in the history, and still recieved a lot of critisism)
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
So honestly, why not #1?
I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1.
At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time?
There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team.
Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
I am not a CJ fan and a die hard Bisu fan and I think Effort should take the #1 spot. You really can`t argue against his results vs a wide range of opponents including lots of very good ones, while the 2 other contenders for the #1 spot are losing games at a much higher rate. Also he have cruised into the RO16 of both leagues. The only thing we can hold against him is the fact that he is rather unproven in BOx series.
Who knows how he will do in a BOx vs Bisu or Jaedong however we do know that he has what it takes to take games from both (yeah hes never beaten Bisu but he made a very close game).
Also why does the age matter? Some people are late bloomers.
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
So honestly, why not #1?
I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1.
At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time?
There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team.
Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
Easy there, I think I'm being pretty fair. Yesterday I argued that EffOrt's win over JD did not justify him going over him in the rankings. But in the interest of full disclosure: EffOrt is my favorite player.
That said, I think this has become incredibly close. I'm looking forward to EffOrt's series against JD in GOM, because I think both players have a sense of what's at stake. They both know that they're the top two zergs at this point, and I doubt either player will take it lightly. That will be something to watch. The way they've played lately, I actually don't think anyone could say with 100% certainty who would win.
EffOrt has also certainly played high-pressure games. His PL game against Jaedong for example. While I acknowledge that JD played (and lost) the most pressure filled match of the month, (v. Bisu in ACE) I submit that EffOrt has played plenty of elimination games and ACE matches, and crucial sets in the last month. And he's pretty much won them all. CJ has won plenty of 3-2 games recently, it's silly to assert that EffOrt's games are irrelevant.
On June 12 2009 03:14 Geo.Rion wrote: it's simple, without a title you cannot be nr 1, really. Only exception were, Jangbi, because everyone sucked big time at that point, and the PR still recieved shitstorm and lasted for 14 days or so (and Jangbi at least had some silvers). And Mainfesto's Leta, but he explained what was his criteria, which is somewhat different from what we used to (and hell, it's still Manifesto, and produced some of the most awesome reasoning of the PR overall in the history, and still recieved a lot of critisism)
Is it so simple? It's not unheard of... And since there was no title this month, I think that's an unfair argument, while I like pedigree as much as the next guy, I'm always skeptical of the relevence of the past in sports. I think their pedigree is what keeps a player like fantasy on the PR- we know he's better than how he's played most recently.
EDIT: I'm not saying that EffOrt should be #1, I'm pointing out that it's not so absurd now. If JWD, puts EffOrt at #1, I'm suggesting a rational.
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
So honestly, why not #1?
I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1.
At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time?
There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team.
Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
I am not a CJ fan and a die hard Bisu fan and I think Effort should take the #1 spot. You really can`t argue against his results vs a wide range of opponents including lots of very good ones, while the 2 other contenders for the #1 spot are losing games at a much higher rate. Also he have cruised into the RO16 of both leagues. The only thing we can hold against him is the fact that he is rather unproven in BOx series.
Who knows how he will do in a BOx vs Bisu or Jaedong however we do know that he has what it takes to take games from both (yeah hes never beaten Bisu but he made a very close game).
Also why does the age matter? Some people are late bloomers.
Oystein while i recpect you a lot as a player, i could not disagree more. As an established player you should know how different a bo5 is from a bo1 or (bo3 agaisnt lesser opponents). A player who did not even reach the point to have a bo5 series, and is not the constant ace of his team, isnot qualified for the nr 1 rank. He might show the strongest performance right now, but it could be misleading. I'm fine with Effort on 1st next month if he keeps up like this, but a hot streak + strong performance is not enough in my opinion.
On June 12 2009 03:27 Geo.Rion wrote: I'm fine with Effort on 1st next month if he keeps up like this, but a hot streak + strong performance is not enough in my opinion.
This.
Jaedong is 14-3, with clutch wins over Leta and Skyhigh. Bisu is 11-3 with a clutch win over Jaedong. Both of them are playing quality Starcraft and look very strong doing so.
Effort was not expected to win this much so we haven't seen him under real pressure. We saw the same thing with Leta until suddenly he was recognised as a great player and people took him more seriously. Then he struggled to maintain his form.
You've also got to take into account that random variance occurs too and for some reason it appears to affect Zerg players a lot. What if Hiya puts his proxy rax on the low ground? etc...
Effort is unbelievable good right now. But by putting him #1 JWD would fall to the same trap as when Leta became #1 (I somehwat agreed on that back then but in retrospect I feel it was not justified).
The guy has never played in a Ro8 of a Starleague or something similar. He beat great competition but so did Leta back then. Top-Players will start to analyze Efforts style more closely and prepare for it. And then he will start dropping games. Again, the same with Leta.
If Effort is going to win a Starleague (or makes it really far) this season I will happily eat my words. But I do not see that happening right now. Bisu and JD are at the top of the foodchain although everyone is analyzing them all the time. The same cannot be said for Effort until now.
He should remain #3 and if he continues winning like this, there is always a new PR. Just do not put him between Bisu and JD, that would make no sense at all.
To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to justify EffOrt not being #1. Beginning on April 19th, this guy has won 25/28 games. That's an 89% winning percentage. That's insane. In that streak, he has now beaten Jaedong, Stork, and Flash, as well as Luxury, Mind, July, and UpMaGiC. His wins against lesser players have been utterly dominant (see: SangHo) and his wins against stronger players have been gutty (see: Jaedong and Mind).
The PR are an expression of who is playing the best SC right now, and I've always given a personal edge to established players like Bisu and Jaedong, because I know that they'll come back, and step it up when they need to. But at this point, even I'm not sure I'd take another player over EffOrt. I said a page ago that I think EffOrt will win a starleague soon. At this point, I think EffOrt might be the favorite to win OSL or MSL this season. Hell, I'd give him a fair chance of beating Jaedong in GOM.
So honestly, why not #1?
I expect JWD will put him above Bisu/Jaedong, but I believe this to be a mistake. I can't help but notice it's two CJ fans who roll in here and insist Effort #1.
At Effort's age Bisu was a double MSL winning, match-up defining genius. And Jaedong was an OSL and an MSL winner being described as the best BW player ever. What has Effort been doing all this time?
There is no way Effort is the favourite in a Bo5 against Bisu or Jaedong, don't make me laugh. So at the moment he's on a really nice streak but he hasn't had to play any high pressure games. He's also being protected by a very strong CJ team.
Effort might turn out to be an amazing player, but at the moment he isn't better than the two modern day Bonjwas.
I am not a CJ fan and a die hard Bisu fan and I think Effort should take the #1 spot. You really can`t argue against his results vs a wide range of opponents including lots of very good ones, while the 2 other contenders for the #1 spot are losing games at a much higher rate. Also he have cruised into the RO16 of both leagues. The only thing we can hold against him is the fact that he is rather unproven in BOx series.
Who knows how he will do in a BOx vs Bisu or Jaedong however we do know that he has what it takes to take games from both (yeah hes never beaten Bisu but he made a very close game).
Also why does the age matter? Some people are late bloomers.
Oystein while i recpect you a lot as a player, i could not disagree more. As an established player you should know how different a bo5 is from a bo1 or (bo3 agaisnt lesser opponents). A player who did not even reach the point to have a bo5 series, and is not the constant ace of his team, isnot qualified for the nr 1 rank. He might show the strongest performance right now, but it could be misleading. I'm fine with Effort on 1st next month if he keeps up like this, but a hot streak + strong performance is not enough in my opinion.
I see the point all you guys who don`t think he should be #1 are making, and I sort of agree and as you saw I wrote that the fact that hes unproven in BOx series is really the only thing we can hold against him because he is bringing in wins everywhere and beating the big names on his way. I guess you can also say that he don`t look as dominant in most of his wins as Bisu\JD looks when they are playing their best, but while it might not look as pretty it is at the moment more effective. Both JD and Bisu are at 14-3 for their last 3 losses while Effort is at 25-3, that is like Flash at his best win rate.
The thing is we are in the off season right now so there are not any BO5s as of now, but hes stomped on everyone hes faced in BO3s and are in RO16 of both the big leagues and GOM. Also the fact that hes not the sole ace of the team should not be held against him, not every team gives their players an inhumane workload, because there is no doubt that he is CJs best player atm.
I guess in the end its all about what kind of PR you like, the safe one where the great players are given a bit leniency and in general the benefit of the doubt or one that gives a good indication of who is playing the best starcraft these days regardless of who you are. I know I like my PR with a bit of spice and controversy
On June 12 2009 04:01 Malinor wrote: The guy has never played in a Ro8 of a Starleague or something similar. He beat great competition but so did Leta back then. Top-Players will start to analyze Efforts style more closely and prepare for it. And then he will start dropping games. Again, the same with Leta.
Arguably (and put simplistically), the #1 player is the one whom all others need to study. So this argument can be taken to justify Leta's position back then, and possibly Effort becoming #1 now.
If you really put Effort at #1, you are making a PR absolutely based on monthly performance. One of the staff here said that the #1 player on the PR is the person who will become a favorite against anyone else right now, although it does include monthly performance. Effort is NOT a favorite against Bisu or Jaedong.
Sure Effort has been getting great results but Bisu and Jaedong receive the benefit of the doubt since their past dominance has been proven, shown, and people recognize them for it.
If you put Effort at #1, a crappy player like Rock can be #1 the next month if he gets the same results that Effort has gotten this month?
Therefore, PR should not be strictly about monthly performance although it should include it partially.
Effort should be #3 until he wins an OSL / MSL or beat Bisu / Jaedong in a BO5. Otherwise, just no.
Zero was placed above Jaedong last PR strictly based on positive results and look how temporary and ill-ranked that was.
On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote:If you put Effort at #1, a crappy player like Rock can be #1 the next month if he gets the same results that Effort has gotten this month?
If Rock actually manages to produce the same kind of result over an extended time then yeah they should be given a good power rank, you make it seem like its something everyone can do. 25-3 is pretty much unheard of beside for people like Flash\JD etc (at their PEAK I might add) make no doubt holding an almost 90% winrate over almost 30 games is CRAZY.
On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote: Zero was placed above Jaedong last PR strictly based on positive results and look how temporary and ill-ranked that was.
Zero wasn't anywhere Effort's insane streak though (and his placement was indeed way off). It'd be more accurate to compare Zero with, say, Violet.
On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote: If you really put Effort at #1, you are making a PR absolutely based on monthly performance. One of the staff here said that the #1 player on the PR is the person who will become a favorite against anyone else right now, although it does include monthly performance. Effort is NOT a favorite against Bisu or Jaedong.
Eh, I reluctantly agree with you there. But it's a helluva lot closer than it was a week ago no? At most it's 55-45%. I think it's even closer. We'll see in GOM- I can't wait for that.
Basically, I completely understand why most people say that JD and Bisu should be ahead of EffOrt. But I've been watching the games too, and I see the PR a little differently; a judgement call about who the best players are in the game right now, based on results, past results, and... (the greatest variable, and the one we're all really arguing about) opinions on the strength of their play. And I've seen EffOrt wreck opponents, and I've seen him grit out wins. In my mind, there isn't anybody he couldn't beat right now. Watch his game against JD, watch his games against Much. EffOrt does what he needs to do to win, and has in the past brought his level up to the best. He doesn't need to do that anymore, he is among the best.
(I hope he gets even better, he's the most exciting player in the game right now.*)
*There's my alloted bit/passionate defense as a EffOrt fan. * And my contribution to 1000 posts...
On June 12 2009 04:38 AzureEye wrote:If you put Effort at #1, a crappy player like Rock can be #1 the next month if he gets the same results that Effort has gotten this month?
If Rock actually manages to produce the same kind of result over an extended time then yeah they should be given a good power rank, you make it seem like its something everyone can do. 25-3 is pretty much unheard of beside for people like Flash\JD etc (at their PEAK I might add) make no doubt holding an almost 90% winrate over almost 30 games is CRAZY.
I think you'll find it's the best 28 game record EVER.
On June 12 2009 04:01 Malinor wrote: Effort is unbelievable good right now. But by putting him #1 JWD would fall to the same trap as when Leta became #1 (I somehwat agreed on that back then but in retrospect I feel it was not justified).
The guy has never played in a Ro8 of a Starleague or something similar. He beat great competition but so did Leta back then. Top-Players will start to analyze Efforts style more closely and prepare for it. And then he will start dropping games. Again, the same with Leta.
If Effort is going to win a Starleague (or makes it really far) this season I will happily eat my words. But I do not see that happening right now. Bisu and JD are at the top of the foodchain although everyone is analyzing them all the time. The same cannot be said for Effort until now.
He should remain #3 and if he continues winning like this, there is always a new PR. Just do not put him between Bisu and JD, that would make no sense at all.
I think this is the most telling. Effort's playstyle hasn't been scrutinized as heavily as some of the other bigger names and he's never played a Bo5 in his entire career. While he may be #1 on the PR (as Leta was), it's very risky seeing how Leta was just as hot for waaaaay longer and he fell really hard once he actually got a taste of what the individual leagues were like.
EPT
Calm - please see my comment here.
Casy survived OSL Offline Qualifiers and have been ACE's two most solid contributors in R4, but neither has done anything spectacular (in all fairness, GoRush did look like he was on his way to losing to BackHo in the OSL). Casy has a great shot at the OSL Ro16, but I can't credit him for matches that haven't been played yet. The funny thing about ACE is that their recent ascendance to mediocrity has truly been a team effort. Everyone's sitting at 60% winrates, and it's impossible to single out any one player who has been carrying the team (GoRush seems to me to be the secret ingredient, though). Also, for all their 3-1 wins in PL, I still just don't think ACE's players stack up against the best of the best in individual play.
Shuttle is having a quite successful spring, but, like Canata, he doesn't have enough recent games under his belt to belong here. I wish STX would send him out more often in PL — he looked on point against Bisu on Neo Medusa. YoonJoong has a nontrivial chance of upsetting Flash in his OSL Ro36 group.
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