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On October 31 2008 19:53 Felagund wrote:
Bisu should be higher than Jaedong, methinks? Only for this month, at least. He made it to the OSL Ro8, brought Stork to game 3. In the MSL he won convincingly. In PL, he contributes well. He's 10-3 this month, losing only to Stork, and to fbh's new TvP. Arguably he played better than JD this month.
BeSt did not, though. :p So he should be lower than both.
no..it has to be clear, the PR is not just performances, it`s about how strong is a player in a specific month, so, overall I think JD is stronger than Bisu...but we`ll have to w8 and see  (I hope he isn`t starting to slump)
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the new Kespa just came out, idk if you saw it already:
1. Flash (T) - KTF MagicNs 2147.5 -
2. Stork (P) - Samsung KHAN 2097.0 ▲1
3. Best (P) - SK Telecom T1 1717.1 ▲1
4. Jaedong (Z) - Lecaf OZ 1703.3 ▽2
5. ForGG (T) - Lecaf OZ 1393.5 -
6. Bisu (P) - SK Telecom T1 1391.3 ▲4
7. Luxury (Z) - KTF MagicNs 1292.3 ▽1
8. JangBi (P) - Samsung KHAN 1291.5 ▲4
9. Kal (P) - STX SouL 1278.0 ▲4
10. July (Z) - STX SouL 1223.3 ▽4
Flash still on 1st...
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On October 31 2008 06:56 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 01:44 TarsTarkas wrote:
I really disagree with Stork being 1st - yeah, he played well, and possibly deserves it - but in all of these accomplishments he has (source: HotBid), he has yet to play a zerg player. Stork would be the favorite against any protoss or any terran player at the moment, I think. But Jaedong would be the favorite against any player, and that includes Stork. I think his PvZ doesn't allow him to be ranked higher than Jaedong.
That is, if the power rank is about the comparative power of the players. Obviously, Stork has better results this month, but Jaedong is still better. This system doesn't work though. It's unfair for the player who is playing outstandingly to be ranked lower than someone who's had a bad (relatively) month.
Thats very true, and is exactly why I think that Steve's job is really difficult. But it seems to me that the #1 player should be a player with even odds against anybody he was to face. But Stork has done better this month, unquestionably.
Hard.
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On October 31 2008 03:06 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 02:46 Jaeden wrote:On October 31 2008 02:28 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 31 2008 01:11 raga4ka wrote:On October 31 2008 00:55 Februarys wrote:
Bisu is looking good lately btw too...I just wish Bisu's PvT would improve
I would like to see Bisu vs JD game again..highest caliber of PvZ
I don't know if Bisu has the best PvZ anymore i think it's all just hype lately . yes he does, not becuz his PvZ is godmode, but he's better in this mu than all the other tosses right now (if you dont pick Free over him). Best and Stork both are weak against Z, so who would be? Jangbi? C'mon, it's Bisu. well, Free is really good PvZ, I guess OneOther said that Free is weak PvZ just because he wasn`t payin` attention. I bet he knows that Free is good PvZ yep, free has always been pretty good at pvz before the bisu era he was the only protoss who was consistant in the matchup too
Anytime was pretty good too i actually liked Anytime's PvZ the best because he was my favourite toss back then  .
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On November 01 2008 01:36 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 03:06 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On October 31 2008 02:46 Jaeden wrote:On October 31 2008 02:28 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 31 2008 01:11 raga4ka wrote:On October 31 2008 00:55 Februarys wrote:
Bisu is looking good lately btw too...I just wish Bisu's PvT would improve
I would like to see Bisu vs JD game again..highest caliber of PvZ
I don't know if Bisu has the best PvZ anymore i think it's all just hype lately . yes he does, not becuz his PvZ is godmode, but he's better in this mu than all the other tosses right now (if you dont pick Free over him). Best and Stork both are weak against Z, so who would be? Jangbi? C'mon, it's Bisu. well, Free is really good PvZ, I guess OneOther said that Free is weak PvZ just because he wasn`t payin` attention. I bet he knows that Free is good PvZ yep, free has always been pretty good at pvz before the bisu era he was the only protoss who was consistant in the matchup too Anytime was pretty good too i actually liked Anytime's PvZ the best because he was my favourite toss back then .
i miss anytime, with him playing as he used to be the Lecaf would 3-0 everbody
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On October 31 2008 06:56 OneOther wrote:
This system doesn't work though. It's unfair for the player who is playing outstandingly to be ranked lower than someone who's had a bad (relatively) month.
On October 31 2008 21:07 Jaeden wrote:no..it has to be clear, the PR is not just performances, it`s about how strong is a player in a specific month, so, overall I think JD is stronger than Bisu...but we`ll have to w8 and see (I hope he isn`t starting to slump)
I agree with Jaeden about PR being about who is the stronger player at that specific month, with very little factoring in who had the better month, but this is not for anyone but the FakeSteve to decide. I wonder what his thoughts are on the definition of PR
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I think that Stork is undoubtable the best player in the world. But if Stork gets another OSL silver I think Steve should put Sea[Shield] back in the top spot. How about it?
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Hurry up and release the PR now. It sucks when the PR is released halfway through a month that shouldn't even be counted - Stork should be #1 now considering his results over the last month and if Fantasy beats him tonight then he can be #1 in next month's PR, rather than FakeSteve finding any excuse to extend his retarded anti Stork fad.
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Poll: Is it better for the PR to be released on the first of each month?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): I prefer having it released at a random uncertain time during the month
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On November 01 2008 04:20 Athos wrote:
I think that Stork is undoubtable the best player in the world. But if Stork gets another OSL silver I think Steve should put Sea[Shield] back in the top spot. How about it?
actually i have a better idea. Namely Mrs. Leforge (i hope i spell it corectly)
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On November 01 2008 05:30 Wolverine wrote:Poll: Is it better for the PR to be released on the first of each month?( Vote): Yes ( Vote): I prefer having it released at a random uncertain time during the month
Saying it needs to be the first is unfair, it should be within a reasonable timeframe (say about a week, preferibly less.)
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United States10774 Posts
On November 01 2008 04:20 Februarys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 06:56 OneOther wrote:
This system doesn't work though. It's unfair for the player who is playing outstandingly to be ranked lower than someone who's had a bad (relatively) month. Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 21:07 Jaeden wrote:no..it has to be clear, the PR is not just performances, it`s about how strong is a player in a specific month, so, overall I think JD is stronger than Bisu...but we`ll have to w8 and see (I hope he isn`t starting to slump) I agree with Jaeden about PR being about who is the stronger player at that specific month, with very little factoring in who had the better month, but this is not for anyone but the FakeSteve to decide. I wonder what his thoughts are on the definition of PR
How do you decide who the strong player in a specific month is without taking into account the players' monthly performances? Speculate who would win in head-to-head? No, it's not going to work. For example It's not right for Bisu to be placed under Jaedong, despite Bisu's excellent performance and Jaedong's sub-par matches. I am not saying Bisu should be higher than JD, I am just trying to make a case. I don't see how you can claim something completely out of your ass and use it as a valid reason to put someone higher on the Power Rankings. One's predictions of who would win in a match do not factor into these rankings. I don't think you understand what kind of bullshit that would lead to. Think about how subjective the ranking would be if it were based on the writer's speculations of who is stronger verses who. How would you deal with someone like forGG? He seemed invincible against Jaedong, does that mean forGG should be placed higher than Jaedong no matter what? If we used your reasoning, everything would literally fall apart. It would impossible to determine where a player like Kal should be placed. How "strong" of a player is he? After all, he did beat Stork, who beat BeSt. Before you bring up your idea of how Power Ranking should be, try to think if it's actually a viable method. Also, there's no clear solution to how to rank players' "strength" when it varies so much on matchups. When it comes to ZvZ, yeah, Jaedong is definitely the strongest. But what about against Terrans? His ZvT is often unreliable. I have no idea how in the world we would rank him based on "strength."
In terms of that pure "player strength" you would put Jaedong above Stork. Based on...your speculation, of course. Stork below Jaedong in the power ranking? That's plain and simple _ridiculous_, enough said.
Let me say it again, your idea fails.
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United States10774 Posts
I agree, haha. I laughed when I read the poll.
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On November 01 2008 04:20 Athos wrote:
I think that Stork is undoubtable the best player in the world. But if Stork gets another OSL silver I think Steve should put Sea[Shield] back in the top spot. How about it?
Or just put a blank picture at #1 and abstain from commenting.
Stork should still be #1 regardless, but if he chokes away yet another final, he really doesn't deserve it.
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I think he does, no one else played as dominantly and looked as good this month than Stork, even if he chokes away the final.
But we'll see if it happens first before we go into this, ok?
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On November 01 2008 09:16 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2008 04:20 Februarys wrote:On October 31 2008 06:56 OneOther wrote:
This system doesn't work though. It's unfair for the player who is playing outstandingly to be ranked lower than someone who's had a bad (relatively) month. On October 31 2008 21:07 Jaeden wrote:no..it has to be clear, the PR is not just performances, it`s about how strong is a player in a specific month, so, overall I think JD is stronger than Bisu...but we`ll have to w8 and see (I hope he isn`t starting to slump) I agree with Jaeden about PR being about who is the stronger player at that specific month, with very little factoring in who had the better month, but this is not for anyone but the FakeSteve to decide. I wonder what his thoughts are on the definition of PR + Show Spoiler +
How do you decide who the strong player in a specific month is without taking into account the players' monthly performances? Speculate who would win in head-to-head? No, it's not going to work. For example It's not right for Bisu to be placed under Jaedong, despite Bisu's excellent performance and Jaedong's sub-par matches. I am not saying Bisu should be higher than JD, I am just trying to make a case. I don't see how you can claim something completely out of your ass and use it as a valid reason to put someone higher on the Power Rankings. One's predictions of who would win in a match do not factor into these rankings. I don't think you understand what kind of bullshit that would lead to. Think about how subjective the ranking would be if it were based on the writer's speculations of who is stronger verses who. How would you deal with someone like forGG? He seemed invincible against Jaedong, does that mean forGG should be placed higher than Jaedong no matter what? If we used your reasoning, everything would literally fall apart. It would impossible to determine where a player like Kal should be placed. How "strong" of a player is he? After all, he did beat Stork, who beat BeSt. Before you bring up your idea of how Power Ranking should be, try to think if it's actually a viable method. Also, there's no clear solution to how to rank players' "strength" when it varies so much on matchups. When it comes to ZvZ, yeah, Jaedong is definitely the strongest. But what about against Terrans? His ZvT is often unreliable. I have no idea how in the world we would rank him based on "strength."
In terms of that pure "player strength" you would put Jaedong above Stork. Based on...your speculation, of course. Stork below Jaedong in the power ranking? That's plain and simple _ridiculous_, enough said.
Let me say it again, your idea fails.
Well, I didn`t say that monthly performances shouldn`t be taken into account. But you should not make the PR only after that. Look at the other PRs. There are a lot of players that are simply bad(backho) that aren`t even in the 10th position. And that's not because they didn`t have performances(Backho reached the semi-final). And there are a lot of other examples, JD was #1 last month, he deserve it, even though he was ONLY in the MSL, he was the strongest player at that moment. So you get my point?
Again, I`m not tryin` to say that performances shouldn`t count at all. Stork will be above JD that`s CLEARLY, so no, u shouldn`t speculate who would win head to head.
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On November 01 2008 09:16 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2008 04:20 Februarys wrote:On October 31 2008 06:56 OneOther wrote:
This system doesn't work though. It's unfair for the player who is playing outstandingly to be ranked lower than someone who's had a bad (relatively) month. On October 31 2008 21:07 Jaeden wrote:no..it has to be clear, the PR is not just performances, it`s about how strong is a player in a specific month, so, overall I think JD is stronger than Bisu...but we`ll have to w8 and see (I hope he isn`t starting to slump) I agree with Jaeden about PR being about who is the stronger player at that specific month, with very little factoring in who had the better month, but this is not for anyone but the FakeSteve to decide. I wonder what his thoughts are on the definition of PR How do you decide who the strong player in a specific month is without taking into account the players' monthly performances? Speculate who would win in head-to-head? No, it's not going to work. For example It's not right for Bisu to be placed under Jaedong, despite Bisu's excellent performance and Jaedong's sub-par matches. I am not saying Bisu should be higher than JD, I am just trying to make a case. I don't see how you can claim something completely out of your ass and use it as a valid reason to put someone higher on the Power Rankings. One's predictions of who would win in a match do not factor into these rankings. I don't think you understand what kind of bullshit that would lead to. Think about how subjective the ranking would be if it were based on the writer's speculations of who is stronger verses who. How would you deal with someone like forGG? He seemed invincible against Jaedong, does that mean forGG should be placed higher than Jaedong no matter what? If we used your reasoning, everything would literally fall apart. It would impossible to determine where a player like Kal should be placed. How "strong" of a player is he? After all, he did beat Stork, who beat BeSt. Before you bring up your idea of how Power Ranking should be, try to think if it's actually a viable method. Also, there's no clear solution to how to rank players' "strength" when it varies so much on matchups. When it comes to ZvZ, yeah, Jaedong is definitely the strongest. But what about against Terrans? His ZvT is often unreliable. I have no idea how in the world we would rank him based on "strength." In terms of that pure "player strength" you would put Jaedong above Stork. Based on...your speculation, of course. Stork below Jaedong in the power ranking? That's plain and simple _ridiculous_, enough said. Let me say it again, your idea fails.
yes monthly performence, but based on the level of the play of the players. There is difference between losses and losses, wins and wins. And not only in the person of the opponent. (Like well he beat Stork in bo5, even tough he simply gave up a game, he's doing well in PL, Still in MSL lets put Kal first.)
Who was X players opponent, in what map, HOW HE PLAYED, did his opponent screw up badly, or X overcame him in every aspect of the game. Was his opponent's tactic a very well tought, disigned to kill X, was it a BO loss or a comeback from a disadvantageous BO. Let me give some examples. JD against Sanhgo. Sangho attacked JD's 3th gas with couple of zealots and a goon, walling the goon in behind the mineral lines, drawin JD's attention while slipping trough 2 dts, to JD's main. Ppl are saying, it's JD's fault, his overlord managment was bad. Well, zergs usually don't have an overlord in their main, because they dont want it to die to the first sair, and the rally point is set on the nat anyway. Yes, he was slow on bringin detection to cover all his main, but Sangho had a damn great advantage already, so JD had to pull out a miracle to win from that point, miracle which not happened this time. And there are a lot of other examples, not only with JD, i gave this one cuz it's the clearest. (and i love JD, i know, i know, don't tell me)
Other problem with monthly performence, and unfortunately it cannot be helped, is that if somebody does not play in his weakest mu only in his strong MUs he might look better than somebody who is almost as good in those MUs, and defineatly better in the remaining one (expressed by notes X is 10 vT, 9 vZ, 5 vP; Y is 10 vT, 8vZ, and 8 vP. If we add this notes it comes X =24, Y=26. try to get the main idea behind the numbers, i dont have better comparison). It cant be helped.
The other thing, JD being unreliable against T. I dont agree, sry. Since the MSL finals he played 5 games, he's 4-1. That one loss was against Frozean. Again i dont think it was JD playing bad... And some players have somebody they can't really defeat.(like Hwain-Bisu, Savior FBH, Stork Kal) Jd lost to frozean in PL finals, when he was on his ZvT peak. Name a player who is mor reliable against T, and woudnt loose to a well prepered decent T sometimes. I think the twins have the best ZvT besides JD, but i still would go with JD for the nr one ZvTist right now (of course because i'm a biased pice of shit, dont tell me, i know).
Dont get me wrong i dont want JD on 1st rank. He doesnt deserves it, it's clear.
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I think FS had the best post about JD,he never plays bad,he just gets overplayed from time to time,like against ForGG and Free. I think if they will meet in future encounters,JD shall win. But yeah,that's just speculation.
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On November 01 2008 13:09 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I think he does, no one else played as dominantly and looked as good this month than Stork, even if he chokes away the final.
But we'll see if it happens first before we go into this, ok?
Of course Stork is the best player right now. But if loses this final, it will just be so frustrating. Hopefully, this is just my pessimism kicking in, when in reality, Stork will simply steamroll Fantasy like a newb and show that he truly is invincible PvT.
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EPT
