EPTWhat do you think of Naniwa vs Nestea? - Page 6
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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sekalf
Sweden522 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:13 xlava wrote: Its part of the game. What naniwa did was no more offensive than a badly executed cheese. Voted completely justified. Honestly, worker rushing is a valid strategy... just nobody does it anymore since it doesn't work lol  A cheese is supposed to sacrifice one or two of those in favor of the other (usually tech and economy for more army). With a worker rush you arrive at the opponent's base with LESS ARMY, LESS TECH and LESS ECONOMY. Past bronze or silver league in which your opponent *may* panic, it's a loss. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:41 Vansetsu wrote: While I understand the point of saving your best play for the matches you think are important, and that players somewhat "throw matches" in these situations otherwise, not trying is absolutely unacceptable. Even if you aren't going to waste/reveal your super secret timing attack, you should still play out the game. Even if you are tilted, you should still try to play a game. Even if you don't give a fuck about anything but results, you should still at the least put on a show. Why? Because your career revolves around shows, fans, and other interests. You can absolutely not give a fuck about them and still have some sort of symbiotic relationship, as douchebag-ish as it might be. But blatantly not trying is blatantly saying: "I honestly don't give a fuck about my fans that support me, I honestly don't give a fuck about my team that supports me and that I represent vicariously, I honestly don't give a fuck about the prestigious tournament organization that by simply existing supports the legitimacy of me even playing this game "professionally"(that exists solely because people don't consistently do the bullshit I just did). Indeed, it basically says "If I don't win, then everyone, including everyone who supports me, can go fuck themselves until I am in a position to win something again --- at that point please forget my giant FU and again support me monetarily or as a fan. If you can't think beyond the immediate "well he was out anyways derp" part of the whole thing, then you ignore the fact that great "showings" are part of what makes sc2 e-sports the growing, entertaining, and viable thing it is today. Of course it is one small incident, but small incidents are where precedents should start. Does this type of thing do any permanent damage? Not really. But it certainly shows what kind of person Naniwa is. It should also makes it easy to see that if all high tier pros had Nani's mentality, the sport would actually just suck to watch. I am(was) the biggest Naniwa fan. He really can be quite genius at times and show some remarkable play. But he is absolutely not a sportsman, which is also even more important during a time when e-sports are something that are trying to be considered "sport" in mainstream culture. Putting quotation marks in something that u are saying, can be misleading as ppl might think naniwa actually said that. In fact nani even apologiused to the fans and his team afterward on his twitter. I dunno why everyuone is so upset. I guess ppl have rage within them | ||
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Bobbias
Canada1373 Posts
In any case, like someone on the first page, my first thought whenI saw this was actually to chuckle a bit. It sounds like exactly something Naniwa would do in that situation, and it's an absurd thing for a progamer to do, at the same time. I feel bad for everyone who paid for the tournament, for NesTea, and for Naniwa. I really hope this doesn't screw Naniwa over, because although it's a high profile incident, and it happened in korea, the game WAS effectively meaningless. We have to remember that at the heart of things, the people that make SC2 what it is is the players. Without them, we hve nothing, and if this were to come back and cause Naniwa to effectively lose his status as a progamer, I think that would be the worst possible outcome. We need personalities like Naniwa. I like that Naniwa can show what he's really feeling by effectively saying "this isn't worth my effort". I feel bad that there even were games that effectively meant nothing in the tournment. I feel like that is something that should be avoided at all costs, and if it does happen, layers should have the ability to forfeit a match like that without repercussions. Why play a match that means nothing? If you dont feel like entertaining the fans, with the game, there's no other vested interest as a progamer. Fans can forgive a player for not playing a game (Idra, anyone?), so in the case of games that have no bearing on the player (no chance to gain anything, monetary, or advancement, or seeding etc.) there should be the choice. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
He should've just went for 2 gate proxy if he didn't want to play. | ||
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:58 GenesisX wrote: he may have the skill to be a pro, but he definitely doesn't have the attitude This pretty much sums it up. He just doesn't have of an appreciation for the fans of E-Sports... When a professional sports team has to play the last few games of a season despite the fact that it'll have no impact on their standings and/or help them break into the playoffs, they still play the game out... they still try and score goals and win the game. If E-Sports is to be taken seriously and considered a real sporting competition players like Naniwa should be forced to understand and live by this concept... If your emotions can take control over you to the extent that they take control over him and other players that need not be mentioned, then he needs to practice figuring out how to deal with it (perhaps he should watch some of Day9's archived VODs discussing anger-management while playing RTS games?). Players like Naniwa need to understand that without the fans there is no E-Sports and there is no Naniwa... there's just Johan Lucchesi. And thus, he should show his appreciation by playing entertaining games even when they do not matter. Nevertheless, I'm sure that as E-Sports grows and becomes bigger and bigger, then professionality will become more important and players like Naniwa will have to grow up and take control over their emotions which clearly misguide them into doing unacceptable and stupid things. On December 14 2011 09:15 Bobbias wrote: We have to remember that at the heart of things, the people that make SC2 what it is is the players. Without them, we hve nothing, and if this were to come back and cause Naniwa to effectively lose his status as a progamer, I think that would be the worst possible outcome. We need personalities like Naniwa. I like that Naniwa can show what he's really feeling by effectively saying "this isn't worth my effort". I feel bad that there even were games that effectively meant nothing in the tournment. I feel like that is something that should be avoided at all costs, and if it does happen, layers should have the ability to forfeit a match like that without repercussions. Why play a match that means nothing? If you dont feel like entertaining the fans, with the game, there's no other vested interest as a progamer. Fans can forgive a player for not playing a game (Idra, anyone?), so in the case of games that have no bearing on the player (no chance to gain anything, monetary, or advancement, or seeding etc.) there should be the choice. On the contrary, without the fans, the players have nothing. They'd just have a hobby with which they would be unable to make a living. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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macncheezeplz
United States93 Posts
1. No monetary value existed at that point, that was completely acceptable. 2. This is the one of the biggest tournaments of the year with only a select few players invited. He shamed the competition of the sport and threw away a chance to show his skill when many other players would have loved to be in his position. Not acceptable. 3. The viewers deserved more. Some people actually payed to watch these games in high quality. Giving up at any point is unacceptable. 4. GOMTV deserved more. Bad games will result in less viewers. Less viewers means less money for the company. The only reason the prize pool exists is because of the quality of the show. The only reason that monetary value is there is because viewers enjoy watching players actually take games seriously. This is unacceptable. Strictly looking at the business side from Naniwa's perspective he acted completely acceptable. Yet... The money given at the end of the tournament doesn't just appear out of no where, it comes from high quality games. Yes I know, there was no way he could have made it through, but AT LEAST give us a show of something. Try a wonky strategy. Give a little effort. Give back to the community that provides you to make a living off of playing a video game. | ||
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ChrysaliS_
United States261 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:58 GenesisX wrote: he may have the skill to be a pro, but he definitely doesn't have the attitude Don't say shit when you have no idea what you're talking about. Naniwa is one of, if not the most dedicated and results-hungry pro-gamers in the world. Literally the only thing he cares about is winning (much more so than money, since he could easily make tons of money from streaming alone), to the extent that he just doesn't give a shit about meaningless matches like the one vs Nestea. So I'd say he has a damn good attitude when it comes to competitive Starcraft, which is after all his profession. | ||
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PcH
United States83 Posts
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Haustka
United States221 Posts
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:59 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Don't say shit when you have no idea what you're talking about. Naniwa is one of, if not the most dedicated and results-hungry pro-gamers in the world. Literally the only thing he cares about is winning (much more so than money, since he could easily make tons of money from streaming alone), to the extent that he just doesn't give a shit about meaningless matches like the one vs Nestea. So I'd say he has a damn good attitude when it comes to competitive Starcraft, which is after all his profession. If all he cared about was winning, he would've tried to WIN every game he played. Clearly, what you're saying is not true because he did not particularly care about whether he won that last game against NesTea. If all one cares about is winning, then presumably they would try and win every game they play. Naniwa did not care to win against NesTea... hence, he's not as results-oriented as you seem to suggest. A 1-3 result is better than an 0-4, so a results-oriented player would aim for the better of the two remaining possible results available to him/her. This is not the way Naniwa approached his situation... so your argument is invalid and definitely not sound. Plus the main point here is the fact that the money he makes and his fame comes from the people who pay to watch SC2... and he showed a lack of appreciation for the fans of E-Sports by doing what he did... regardless of whether he is or is not a results-oriented player. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:22 Kreb wrote: Good poll. Chose "Disappointing but no big deal" myself, will be interesting to see the overall results. Reason I dont think its a big deal it because its been done multiple times and people havent bothered 1/10th about it. Stephano 6pooled at DH when he was already out of the tourny. Idra has 6pooled once or twice, as well as showed a wide array of different BMs. Could probably mention a few more off the top of my head at lesser tournies/cups, and god knows how many times it happened more than that. The combination of it being Naniwa (who doesnt exactly have the best reputation), it happening in a big event (and no random online cup) and probably also beacuse its in Korea, where they suppesedly care very much about professionalism much more than in the west, just made it worse in many peoples eyes. But really, having player A throwing games against player B when player B's and C's tournament life is on the line (basically screwing player C over) is to me worse than throwing a game when it only affects yourself. It was disappointing indeed, and quite frankly pretty stupid. He really made himself a non-favor by making it so obvious, which regardless of whether it was better or worse will put him in much worse light. He should just have 4gated and everyone would have shrugged it off in an hour or two (EDIT: lol, just read the interview where Naniwa said the same himself :p). But making it obvious really doesnt make the crime worse, imo. The ones who have the biggest reason to be mad are probably his employer (Quantic) and their sponsors, since they use him as a tool to get their name out to the public, and he isnt exactly doing a good job at it. For them it could definitely be a big deal, for most other, I think not. Oh, and I really dont see why the game was played at all, or why there was no option to forfeit the game (assuming Naniwa wouldve used it had it been there). Six Pool has a legitimate chance of winning (See ActionJesuz)... Probe rushing a Zerg does not... | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
And I feel it's understandable, though not in his best interest. | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:54 Turboteckel wrote: I agree with this guy. There's no reason for anyone to spend money on Naniwa if this is what you get. Long term investment > Short term investment | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On December 14 2011 11:13 Kahuna. wrote: If all he cared about was winning, he would've tried to WIN every game he played. Clearly, what you're saying is not true because he did not particularly care about whether he won that last game against NesTea. If all one cares about is winning, then presumably they would try and win every game they play. Naniwa did not care to win against NesTea... hence, he's not as results-oriented as you seem to suggest. A 1-3 result is better than an 0-4, so a results-oriented player would aim for the better of the two remaining possible results available to him/her. This is not the way Naniwa approached his situation... so your argument is invalid and definitely not sound. Plus the main point here is the fact that the money he makes and his fame comes from the people who pay to watch SC2... and he showed a lack of appreciation for the fans of E-Sports by doing what he did... regardless of whether he is or is not a results-oriented player. he cares about winning tournaments... the last game was worthless and tbh when nothing is on the line i doubt much people care to watch. | ||
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Cow
Canada1104 Posts
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