EPTWhat do you think of Naniwa vs Nestea?
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Grimmjow
Canada15 Posts
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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babybell
776 Posts
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ConRa
Sweden42 Posts
As a NaNiwa fan it's a sad day, he played really well and it could as might have been 3-0 after those first games. I hope he wins those close games next time. NaNiwa fighting!  | ||
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Massing
Germany354 Posts
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darkest44
United States1009 Posts
However, I guess I can see how it might piss off gom and other fans/players so I think it was a stupid thing for him to do based on that fact and he should apologize, regardless of the fact that it didn't personally offend me. If you think about it in the sense that there are so many players out there who would kill for the opportunity to play Nestea or play on TV and it's kind sucky for them to see someone carelessly shit on that opportunity I guess it's pretty lame of him. If he wants to stay in Korea so bad he should be avoiding antagonizing the only company hosting tournaments there and follow their rules no matter how stupid he thinks they are, and of course should avoid pissing off fans/sponsors. | ||
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carloselcoco
United States2302 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:11 Grimmjow wrote: such a big deal over a match that meant nothing in this tournament.. Still means a lot for sponsors and teams though. Quantic and GomTV are paying Nani to play, not give up for free his game. | ||
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Pjorren
Sweden777 Posts
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Massing
Germany354 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:43 carloselcoco wrote: Still means a lot for sponsors and teams though. Quantic and GomTV are paying Nani to play, not give up for free his game. then they should figure out a system where played games have a sense | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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Candramelekh
Romania7 Posts
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x2mirko
Germany245 Posts
However, I think it might have been a better move to just forfeit the game before even starting it (i don't know if that's even possible/allowed) instead of proberushing - it would definitely have made a lot less of a splash in the scene. | ||
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
DRG won a game yesterday against an opponent that had no reason to win ( hero ) and then won another against MC that already passed and couldnt get 1st ... Blame the format ... No one likes to play after they already lost , i guess Gom wanted him to play because everyone wanted to see that game , but wasnt in the mood so he basically said FU with 6 probes... | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Chose "Disappointing but no big deal" myself, will be interesting to see the overall results. Reason I dont think its a big deal it because its been done multiple times and people havent bothered 1/10th about it. Stephano 6pooled at DH when he was already out of the tourny. Idra has 6pooled once or twice, as well as showed a wide array of different BMs. Could probably mention a few more off the top of my head at lesser tournies/cups, and god knows how many times it happened more than that. The combination of it being Naniwa (who doesnt exactly have the best reputation), it happening in a big event (and no random online cup) and probably also beacuse its in Korea, where they suppesedly care very much about professionalism much more than in the west, just made it worse in many peoples eyes. But really, having player A throwing games against player B when player B's and C's tournament life is on the line (basically screwing player C over) is to me worse than throwing a game when it only affects yourself. It was disappointing indeed, and quite frankly pretty stupid. He really made himself a non-favor by making it so obvious, which regardless of whether it was better or worse will put him in much worse light. He should just have 4gated and everyone would have shrugged it off in an hour or two (EDIT: lol, just read the interview where Naniwa said the same himself :p). But making it obvious really doesnt make the crime worse, imo. The ones who have the biggest reason to be mad are probably his employer (Quantic) and their sponsors, since they use him as a tool to get their name out to the public, and he isnt exactly doing a good job at it. For them it could definitely be a big deal, for most other, I think not. Oh, and I really dont see why the game was played at all, or why there was no option to forfeit the game (assuming Naniwa wouldve used it had it been there). | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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Vansetsu
United States1454 Posts
Even if you aren't going to waste/reveal your super secret timing attack, you should still play out the game. Even if you are tilted, you should still try to play a game. Even if you don't give a fuck about anything but results, you should still at the least put on a show. Why? Because your career revolves around shows, fans, and other interests. You can absolutely not give a fuck about them and still have some sort of symbiotic relationship, as douchebag-ish as it might be. But blatantly not trying is blatantly saying: "I honestly don't give a fuck about my fans that support me, I honestly don't give a fuck about my team that supports me and that I represent vicariously, I honestly don't give a fuck about the prestigious tournament organization that by simply existing supports the legitimacy of me even playing this game "professionally"(that exists solely because people don't consistently do the bullshit I just did). Indeed, it basically says "If I don't win, then everyone, including everyone who supports me, can go fuck themselves until I am in a position to win something again --- at that point please forget my giant FU and again support me monetarily or as a fan. If you can't think beyond the immediate "well he was out anyways derp" part of the whole thing, then you ignore the fact that great "showings" are part of what makes sc2 e-sports the growing, entertaining, and viable thing it is today. Of course it is one small incident, but small incidents are where precedents should start. Does this type of thing do any permanent damage? Not really. But it certainly shows what kind of person Naniwa is. It should also makes it easy to see that if all high tier pros had Nani's mentality, the sport would actually just suck to watch. I am(was) the biggest Naniwa fan. He really can be quite genius at times and show some remarkable play. But he is absolutely not a sportsman, which is also even more important during a time when e-sports are something that are trying to be considered "sport" in mainstream culture. | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:41 Vansetsu wrote: While I understand the point of saving your best play for the matches you think are important, and that players somewhat "throw matches" in these situations otherwise, not trying is absolutely unacceptable. Even if you aren't going to waste/reveal your super secret timing attack, you should still play out the game. Even if you are tilted, you should still try to play a game. Even if you don't give a fuck about anything but results, you should still at the least put on a show. Why? Because your career revolves around shows, fans, and other interests. You can absolutely not give a fuck about them and still have some sort of symbiotic relationship, as douchebag-ish as it might be. But blatantly not trying is blatantly saying: "I honestly don't give a fuck about my fans that support me, I honestly don't give a fuck about my team that supports me and that I represent vicariously, I honestly don't give a fuck about the prestigious tournament organization that by simply existing supports the legitimacy of me even playing this game "professionally"(that exists solely because people don't consistently do the bullshit I just did). Indeed, it basically says "If I don't win, then everyone, including everyone who supports me, can go fuck themselves until I am in a position to win something again --- at that point please forget my giant FU and again support me monetarily or as a fan. If you can't think beyond the immediate "well he was out anyways derp" part of the whole thing, then you ignore the fact that great "showings" are part of what makes sc2 e-sports the growing, entertaining, and viable thing it is today. Of course it is one small incident, but small incidents are where precedents should start. Does this type of thing do any permanent damage? Not really. But it certainly shows what kind of person Naniwa is. It should also makes it easy to see that if all high tier pros had Nani's mentality, the sport would actually just suck to watch. I am(was) the biggest Naniwa fan. He really can be quite genius at times and show some remarkable play. But he is absolutely not a sportsman, which is also even more important during a time when e-sports are something that are trying to be considered "sport" in mainstream culture. I'm sorry but what he did put on a much better show than anything he could have done in his current state of tilt. And it certainly generated a hell of a lot more buzz. Not sure if any other non-final game has created such a fuss. | ||
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Fusil
Germany20 Posts
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Turboteckel
Netherlands37 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:41 Vansetsu wrote: snip I agree with this guy. There's no reason for anyone to spend money on Naniwa if this is what you get. | ||
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nagual
Ukraine70 Posts
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Zeburial
Sweden1126 Posts
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Samba
Germany452 Posts
I voted disappointet as well, but it seems that people are picking way more on Naniwa than other players. Don´t let them play such meaningless matches after they´re basicly already out of the tournament. As a sportsman i can really empathize Naniwa´s feelings. I would have loved to see something freaky out of him for this game, but i can understand that he was too frustrated for that. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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silverhand
United States91 Posts
If the revenge match was so vital to the success of this tournament, GOMtv's viewers, the esports community, etc...why not showcase it on the schedule before it has the opportunity to be meaningless? I can understand if they were trying to have it as a later match in the schedule so the foreigners that didn't want to stay up to watch it had an easier time waking up early to see it, but then you are catering to your non-paying viewers, more than the ones who pay to have access to the VODs as I'm sure if Naniwa and Nestea played their match anywhere from the 1st to 4th match of the evening, the VOD for the game would be highly accessed as opposed to now. If GOMtv is concerned about the quality of meaningless matches, it is poor foresight on their part to have not put out a schedule where Naniwa's games vs Leenock and Nestea were guaranteed to mean something - especially since there was plenty of reason to believe that Naniwa (and I happen to think he's a top Protoss player) could go 0-4 in that group. Would people really be that pissed off if Naniwa shrugged off a game to Polt or MMA? From a pure business standpoint, you have to understand the demands of your viewers and the possible implications of personalities such as Naniwa and Idra crushing the hype of a match because they go on tilt. I don't excuse Naniwa in this...just thought that not enough people are even looking at it from a poor planning perspective on the part of GOMtv. | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:21 tsuxiit wrote: Yeah, but...it's not exactly in Naniwa's best interest to throw games blatantly when tens of thousands of people are watching on stream and his team is trying it's hardest to support him. I can imagine that for NaNiwa, that would be kind of hard to work with, considering he was obviously demoralized or on 'tilt'. Playing another game that doesn't change the result of his advancement in the tournament, let alone that of his opponent gives no strive, no incentive to play at his fullest effort as he did in the first 3 games. | ||
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FlopTurnReaver
Switzerland1980 Posts
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On December 14 2011 01:21 FlopTurnReaver wrote: I understand that especially the Korean fans are outraged. Judging from all the interviews with Korean players I've seen, bringing the fans entertaining games is like the most important thing over there. Yeah, considering the league was plagued with 2-rax games for a good amount of time. Play to win, yes. Play for nothing after already being defeated, painful and unecassary. | ||
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jaminski
England84 Posts
if players are playing for nothing then atleast give them to vote to play a meaningless game and have them explain it on stream / TV so that viewers understand there and then | ||
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Arcane86
United States68 Posts
When we think about "how the community feels" I think poll is a reflection of just how not angry the "community" actually is. | ||
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wolferick
Belgium13 Posts
Anyway, it's not that the tournament is ruined or anything. There are still more then enough awesome matches to see, I'm looking forward to another Mvp VS Leenock-run, those matches were just awesome at Providence and GSL. I sure hope Leenock will beat MC tomorrow morning (I live at +1). | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On December 14 2011 01:37 Goibon wrote: I hope this leads toward tournament organisers not creating these situations. If that doesn't happen then this was all for nothing. I hope so as well, NaNiwa getting all this blind and narrow hate better count for something. | ||
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pms
Poland611 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:41 Vansetsu wrote: But he is absolutely not a sportsman, which is also even more important during a time when e-sports are something that are trying to be considered "sport" in mainstream culture. You're wrong here. He obviously is a sportsman and has a very, very strong feeling of competition, which DRIVES every kind of sport. But he is not a showman, and he proves so on every occasion. I expect though that he will cheer up and calm down after getting hist first big success (winning GSL, although I don't know if it will happen). Until that time my expectation is that he'll keep on being as rough as he is. And I love him for this. He's a PERSONALITY. He has some balls there to be as he is. | ||
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QuailMaen
Norway6 Posts
If it wasnt for GOM, fans, entertaining casters and other esports personalitys. They would still sitt at home with their dick in their hand, with no income. They should show some respect, and try to give entertaining games even if they are out. Iam a former CS1.6 progamer, and whining about tourneys and how they do their stuff is just BS. Don't .... join them then, sit at home and play your game. Without them, they couldn't do this for a living. Players starting to act like casanovas. Manner up! and take some responsibility. | ||
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laguu
Finland278 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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kawoq
Guatemala357 Posts
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EclipZe
United States39 Posts
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say1988
9 Posts
In professional sports in this situation you won`t put out your best play and strategies (and I wouldn`t blame Nani for such), but you don`t just fold and go home. If a football team did this it would be a scandal, and rightly so. In some minor tournament, I wouldn`t care as much. In a larger tournament (with more players and more games) I would care less as there is much more filler. But this tournament is small with a limited number of matchup and leans heavily towards a show. I hope he at least tried to forfeit before hand and GOM or Quantic forced him to play, because no game is better than building expectations and quitting. Yes this is getting more attention because of who did it, but my view holds even if it wasn't Nani. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
Does he treat his practice matches with the same disdain, because they don't really matter? Why couldn't he treat it as simply another opportunity to practice, while treating his fans to a show? If it's all about results and money then go get a real job and quit wasting the fans time. | ||
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
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Psotnik
Poland14 Posts
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ReturnStroke
United States801 Posts
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say1988
9 Posts
On December 14 2011 02:38 liberal wrote: People should play this game because they love to play it, because they have a passion for it and because they ENJOY it. Even if they don't enjoy (and Nani probably does the vast majority of the time) it, as soon as you are being paid to do a job, you do it when you feel happy and when you don't. | ||
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XIJABERWALKIX
United States27 Posts
Naniwa doesn't get that doing the things he does (probe rushing, bad interviews, etc) actually hurt the credibility of e-sports. Other professional sports teams play time and time again in "pointless" games, however they play them and they play them with a decent amount of effort. Sure they might try harder if things were on the line, but they still want to win. It's about pride. Possibly even more than that, it's about credibility and heart of the game. No one wants to put money into a league where everyone except the top teams/players start quitting because they have little to no chance of advancing. If that were the case, every single sporting format would be something like elimination style tournaments, there would be no "seasons." Leagues and especially teams need to start coaching players on proper professional etiquette if eSports is to continue to grow at the rate it has been. There are no excuses for things like that anymore. We're so close to the big leagues, it would be a shame for something like that to hold us back. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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Loweryder
Canada11 Posts
On the other hand, saying that Naniwa should no longer be a progamer is completely ridiculous, he did not cheat and everything he did was 'within his rights' to do, it was just quite disappointing for the majority of his fans. While I never was a Naniwa fan to begin with, it will be even harder now for me to cheer for him as the 'foreigner hope'. | ||
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AbstractRDK
Greece4 Posts
I think its completely unacceptable, that a professional player, throws a game away in a big event like that. Many people don't seem to realize what it means to be professional in any kind of sport. You are getting paid to do what you're doing, so unless something really important stops you from doing that, you have to play the game. I don't care if he would have tried to actually win the game or not, and that's not the point. The point is, apart from playing games, you're there to do a job. People saying that GOM should have a better format are right. But that doesn't give the right to Naniwa (or anyone else) to not play the games he is supposed to play. Naniwa agreed to play in this tournament and he was aware of the format before the tournament started. Can you imagine if u went to watch a Tennis game, and the game didn't have any impact on the tournament, and u had to watch for 15 minutes one player throwing the ball outside the court all the time? Can you imagine if u went to watch a football game, and one team doesn't care about the result, and they score own-goals for 90 minutes? Naniwa eventually admitted that he should have gone for a 4gate, and imo any build that would end the game as quickly as possible while giving the crowd something to see would have been totally acceptable. You can lose the game however you want, you can lose it quickly in many ways, but at least do what you're supposed to do. If we want e-Sports to be taken seriously in the future, we have to show good sportsmanship, good tournament formats and professionalism. | ||
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Wherewolf
United States353 Posts
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:46 Massing wrote: then they should figure out a system where played games have a sense well it does up his overall win rate if he wins more games xD | ||
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Engore
United States1916 Posts
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strength
United States493 Posts
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
I guess 3 poll options fit me. | ||
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Giants92
16 Posts
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FidoDido
United States1292 Posts
The verdict has already been handed out by GomTV(not publicly, but there is no need to announce it publicly to stir up more debates in the foreign community anyways), there isn't anything anyone here can say that will be read to change the decision made. I won't go into details but you can be sure GomTV won't make the same mistake twice with the same player. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
1. Thousands of people are watching, including your fans. 2. You are up against one of the best players in the world in a pressure-filled environment. Much better practice than ladder. | ||
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eSu.Matix
Bulgaria22 Posts
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Chromodoris
Sweden136 Posts
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Marzocchi
United States58 Posts
Who determines what is "acceptable", and what is not, for a person to do? Throwing a game is a players individual prerogative. And, since it has absolutely no bearing on the tournament whatsoever it's really not a big deal at all. Had he thrown a game that would have affected the tournament and placing of another player... it's still his own decision... but the player who was affected (getting placed differently) could be upset. Starcraft is a one vs. one game. Players play alone. They make up their own minds. The community can't do it for them... and doesn't have the right to. Neither does a tournament. Naniwa, his team and his sponsors are the only one's whose opinions matter. None of ours do. A possible solution to the situation can be taken from Japan's Pride format -- when a fighter isn't attacking, they are docked points and fined monetarily. However, this worked in the Pride arena because each fight mattered, where as the NesTea vs. Naniwa match counted for absolutely nothing. It's equivalent to quitting a ladder match. Move on people. | ||
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TheRooster
Sweden719 Posts
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
Due to Naniwa, both Naniwa and Nestea fans got to see one less game from their player. | ||
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
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Vallros
Denmark64 Posts
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
You would think that Naniwa would remember that he is representing more than himself at least go through the motions though. How Naniwa handled the situation was very disappointing to say the least, but it was not some terrible act like the thisisgame article says. Anyhow I imagine that this may be a tough situation for Quantic internally. I think Gom should of said that game has no bearing on anything and just not of played it. Unacceptable for a pro gamer to do that? Come on... really? Who determines what is "acceptable", and what is not, for a person to do? Throwing a game is a players individual prerogative. And, since it has absolutely no bearing on the tournament whatsoever it's really not a big deal at all. It is an individuals prerogative if they are only representing themselves. Once you sign a contract you are representing all the brands that sponsor you and the team that pays you. | ||
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
It wasn´t the right choice, and he should´ve 4 gated but still. Don´t hate him because of that. I dislike him because of his playstyle not personality! | ||
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ChuCky.Ca
Canada2497 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:11 Grimmjow wrote: such a big deal over a match that meant nothing in this tournament.. for like the 100th time it's not about this tournament its about being a professional | ||
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Alvalanker
United States253 Posts
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Noev
United States1105 Posts
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DeuceStarcraft
Canada60 Posts
Would the UFC condone an offcard match being thrown by one of the fighters? No way. I know the argument would be that the fighter of an offcard has something to gain but I very much believe that if you're going to be in a tournament, whether the match means nothing or not, your players should give it their all. If not for their own pride, then for their fans. I feel that Naniwa's actions of late give eSports a bad name, because we tolerate it and allow him to keep room these things with no repurcusions. | ||
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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fourColo
United States363 Posts
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Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:22 Kreb wrote: Good poll. Chose "Disappointing but no big deal" myself, will be interesting to see the overall results. Reason I dont think its a big deal it because its been done multiple times and people havent bothered 1/10th about it. Stephano 6pooled at DH when he was already out of the tourny. Idra has 6pooled once or twice, as well as showed a wide array of different BMs. Could probably mention a few more off the top of my head at lesser tournies/cups, and god knows how many times it happened more than that. The combination of it being Naniwa (who doesnt exactly have the best reputation), it happening in a big event (and no random online cup) and probably also beacuse its in Korea, where they suppesedly care very much about professionalism much more than in the west, just made it worse in many peoples eyes. But really, having player A throwing games against player B when player B's and C's tournament life is on the line (basically screwing player C over) is to me worse than throwing a game when it only affects yourself. It was disappointing indeed, and quite frankly pretty stupid. He really made himself a non-favor by making it so obvious, which regardless of whether it was better or worse will put him in much worse light. He should just have 4gated and everyone would have shrugged it off in an hour or two (EDIT: lol, just read the interview where Naniwa said the same himself :p). But making it obvious really doesnt make the crime worse, imo. The ones who have the biggest reason to be mad are probably his employer (Quantic) and their sponsors, since they use him as a tool to get their name out to the public, and he isnt exactly doing a good job at it. For them it could definitely be a big deal, for most other, I think not. Oh, and I really dont see why the game was played at all, or why there was no option to forfeit the game (assuming Naniwa wouldve used it had it been there). Sigh, why cant i be better at posts..lol GREAT JOB...agreed. | ||
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Prplppleatr
United States1518 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:38 ChuCky.Ca wrote: for like the 100th time it's not about this tournament its about being a professional 'Professional' will have a different meaning no matter who you ask. Obviously there is a large disparity in how people value professionalism compared to the koreans. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
Do they play for the sake of being the best and winning, and we as spectators get to watch that as a privilege? Or are they playing for our entertainment, and whether they win or lose should be irrelevant to the ultimate goal of putting on a good show? I think most foreigners (e.g. the Liquid` players) associate with the first viewpoint, while the Koreans associate with the second. I voted 'disappointed, but no big deal.' Naniwa needs to understand that what he did isn't right, but he shouldn't be penalized for it. If it starts to becomes a trend, then yes, we will need to enforce rules against it. | ||
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Caltu
60 Posts
Naniwa did basically the same thing He is a pro and should be thinking better about this but he just made a "rookie" mistake | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
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Latham
9559 Posts
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Vildhjarta
Sweden126 Posts
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MadNeSs
Denmark1507 Posts
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Kaiwa
Netherlands2209 Posts
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Idnn
6 Posts
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89733
Canada11 Posts
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Atlas247
Canada318 Posts
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ShineOnYou
93 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Here's my analogy, which may resonate with a lot of students out there: you have to take the final exam for a class, which is going to take valuable time and a lot of handwriting. You probably won't get an A, unless you score like a 103 or higher, but you won't drop to a C unless you do terribad. But you have to do it anyways. Or look no further than the Colts. Arguably one of the best NFL teams out there. Lost Peyton Manning, their star quarterback. Now, they're actually 0 for however-many games-they've-played. But it's not like they aren't trying, right? They go out there every week and try their damndest. And their fans know that and they cheer their damndest as well. From a fan's perspective, I was looking forward to seeing a rematch of Naniwa vs. Nestea. | ||
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omgimonfire15
United States233 Posts
Naniwa signed a contract and is getting paid by his team and sponsors to go out there and represent them. Giving up like that is like a american football team kneeing every play, a football player kicking it into their own goal, a pitcher balling it every single time. what he did was incredibly selfish and inconsiderate of everyone around him. But for me, its not that big of a deal, his team should just discipline him. | ||
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Eineez
Sweden37 Posts
Thing is, I think there would most likely be no fuzz at all about this if it was a Korean pro doing what Naniwa did. | ||
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MrJargon
United Kingdom158 Posts
I understand why its not such a big deal but lets just imagine for a second that esports was much larger than it currently is like other sports, one team throws a match because they cant win anymore... no its not acceptable how about for people who paid to see these matches should they get their money back because one of the players didn't think the match mattered? Typical unprofessional naniwa. | ||
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bLzPostman
New Zealand82 Posts
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Krymming
Sweden38 Posts
Also you could see the matches in LQ for free so it's not like he screw over the ones who paid for HQ, just sayin'. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
Fact is what Naniwa did was the opposite one should expect out of a professional player. It doesn't matter if Naniwa is a foreigner he is a part of the Korean scene in a Korean tournament and Koreans do not like this type of behavior AT ALL. There would be serious consequences if this happened in BW and in order for GOM to remain their air of professionalism and integrity they must punish Naniwa. | ||
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rumblen
United States14 Posts
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xlava
United States676 Posts
Voted completely justified. Honestly, worker rushing is a valid strategy... just nobody does it anymore since it doesn't work lol | ||
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saltymango
United States120 Posts
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Labil
Sweden52 Posts
In this particular case I think it was bad mannered but nothing more, He's just very inmature & a sore looser. But thats the winning personality... | ||
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froggynoddy
United Kingdom452 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:13 xlava wrote: Its part of the game. What naniwa did was no more offensive than a badly executed cheese. Voted completely justified. Honestly, worker rushing is a valid strategy... just nobody does it anymore since it doesn't work lol How is it a valid strategy if it doesn't work?? wait... I get it. I voted unacceptable but am not going to rage at Naniwa, he's obviously an amazing player. But if you want to make eSports into a genuine, legitimate professionallly played 'sport' you have to have professional standards. Could you imagine anything like that happening in the traditional sports, where the league/tournament stakes have already been decided? No, the team/player would be fined. Why? Because part of being a professional sportsman is to perform the sport despite their being no financial incentive in order to entertain your supporters/followers who support you (both morally and financially). That said I still love his game so all the best to Naniwa. | ||
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Eljyaz
United States17 Posts
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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sekalf
Sweden522 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:13 xlava wrote: Its part of the game. What naniwa did was no more offensive than a badly executed cheese. Voted completely justified. Honestly, worker rushing is a valid strategy... just nobody does it anymore since it doesn't work lol A cheese is supposed to sacrifice one or two of those in favor of the other (usually tech and economy for more army). With a worker rush you arrive at the opponent's base with LESS ARMY, LESS TECH and LESS ECONOMY. Past bronze or silver league in which your opponent *may* panic, it's a loss. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:41 Vansetsu wrote: While I understand the point of saving your best play for the matches you think are important, and that players somewhat "throw matches" in these situations otherwise, not trying is absolutely unacceptable. Even if you aren't going to waste/reveal your super secret timing attack, you should still play out the game. Even if you are tilted, you should still try to play a game. Even if you don't give a fuck about anything but results, you should still at the least put on a show. Why? Because your career revolves around shows, fans, and other interests. You can absolutely not give a fuck about them and still have some sort of symbiotic relationship, as douchebag-ish as it might be. But blatantly not trying is blatantly saying: "I honestly don't give a fuck about my fans that support me, I honestly don't give a fuck about my team that supports me and that I represent vicariously, I honestly don't give a fuck about the prestigious tournament organization that by simply existing supports the legitimacy of me even playing this game "professionally"(that exists solely because people don't consistently do the bullshit I just did). Indeed, it basically says "If I don't win, then everyone, including everyone who supports me, can go fuck themselves until I am in a position to win something again --- at that point please forget my giant FU and again support me monetarily or as a fan. If you can't think beyond the immediate "well he was out anyways derp" part of the whole thing, then you ignore the fact that great "showings" are part of what makes sc2 e-sports the growing, entertaining, and viable thing it is today. Of course it is one small incident, but small incidents are where precedents should start. Does this type of thing do any permanent damage? Not really. But it certainly shows what kind of person Naniwa is. It should also makes it easy to see that if all high tier pros had Nani's mentality, the sport would actually just suck to watch. I am(was) the biggest Naniwa fan. He really can be quite genius at times and show some remarkable play. But he is absolutely not a sportsman, which is also even more important during a time when e-sports are something that are trying to be considered "sport" in mainstream culture. Putting quotation marks in something that u are saying, can be misleading as ppl might think naniwa actually said that. In fact nani even apologiused to the fans and his team afterward on his twitter. I dunno why everyuone is so upset. I guess ppl have rage within them | ||
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Bobbias
Canada1373 Posts
In any case, like someone on the first page, my first thought whenI saw this was actually to chuckle a bit. It sounds like exactly something Naniwa would do in that situation, and it's an absurd thing for a progamer to do, at the same time. I feel bad for everyone who paid for the tournament, for NesTea, and for Naniwa. I really hope this doesn't screw Naniwa over, because although it's a high profile incident, and it happened in korea, the game WAS effectively meaningless. We have to remember that at the heart of things, the people that make SC2 what it is is the players. Without them, we hve nothing, and if this were to come back and cause Naniwa to effectively lose his status as a progamer, I think that would be the worst possible outcome. We need personalities like Naniwa. I like that Naniwa can show what he's really feeling by effectively saying "this isn't worth my effort". I feel bad that there even were games that effectively meant nothing in the tournment. I feel like that is something that should be avoided at all costs, and if it does happen, layers should have the ability to forfeit a match like that without repercussions. Why play a match that means nothing? If you dont feel like entertaining the fans, with the game, there's no other vested interest as a progamer. Fans can forgive a player for not playing a game (Idra, anyone?), so in the case of games that have no bearing on the player (no chance to gain anything, monetary, or advancement, or seeding etc.) there should be the choice. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
He should've just went for 2 gate proxy if he didn't want to play. | ||
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:58 GenesisX wrote: he may have the skill to be a pro, but he definitely doesn't have the attitude This pretty much sums it up. He just doesn't have of an appreciation for the fans of E-Sports... When a professional sports team has to play the last few games of a season despite the fact that it'll have no impact on their standings and/or help them break into the playoffs, they still play the game out... they still try and score goals and win the game. If E-Sports is to be taken seriously and considered a real sporting competition players like Naniwa should be forced to understand and live by this concept... If your emotions can take control over you to the extent that they take control over him and other players that need not be mentioned, then he needs to practice figuring out how to deal with it (perhaps he should watch some of Day9's archived VODs discussing anger-management while playing RTS games?). Players like Naniwa need to understand that without the fans there is no E-Sports and there is no Naniwa... there's just Johan Lucchesi. And thus, he should show his appreciation by playing entertaining games even when they do not matter. Nevertheless, I'm sure that as E-Sports grows and becomes bigger and bigger, then professionality will become more important and players like Naniwa will have to grow up and take control over their emotions which clearly misguide them into doing unacceptable and stupid things. On December 14 2011 09:15 Bobbias wrote: We have to remember that at the heart of things, the people that make SC2 what it is is the players. Without them, we hve nothing, and if this were to come back and cause Naniwa to effectively lose his status as a progamer, I think that would be the worst possible outcome. We need personalities like Naniwa. I like that Naniwa can show what he's really feeling by effectively saying "this isn't worth my effort". I feel bad that there even were games that effectively meant nothing in the tournment. I feel like that is something that should be avoided at all costs, and if it does happen, layers should have the ability to forfeit a match like that without repercussions. Why play a match that means nothing? If you dont feel like entertaining the fans, with the game, there's no other vested interest as a progamer. Fans can forgive a player for not playing a game (Idra, anyone?), so in the case of games that have no bearing on the player (no chance to gain anything, monetary, or advancement, or seeding etc.) there should be the choice. On the contrary, without the fans, the players have nothing. They'd just have a hobby with which they would be unable to make a living. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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macncheezeplz
United States93 Posts
1. No monetary value existed at that point, that was completely acceptable. 2. This is the one of the biggest tournaments of the year with only a select few players invited. He shamed the competition of the sport and threw away a chance to show his skill when many other players would have loved to be in his position. Not acceptable. 3. The viewers deserved more. Some people actually payed to watch these games in high quality. Giving up at any point is unacceptable. 4. GOMTV deserved more. Bad games will result in less viewers. Less viewers means less money for the company. The only reason the prize pool exists is because of the quality of the show. The only reason that monetary value is there is because viewers enjoy watching players actually take games seriously. This is unacceptable. Strictly looking at the business side from Naniwa's perspective he acted completely acceptable. Yet... The money given at the end of the tournament doesn't just appear out of no where, it comes from high quality games. Yes I know, there was no way he could have made it through, but AT LEAST give us a show of something. Try a wonky strategy. Give a little effort. Give back to the community that provides you to make a living off of playing a video game. | ||
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ChrysaliS_
United States261 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:58 GenesisX wrote: he may have the skill to be a pro, but he definitely doesn't have the attitude Don't say shit when you have no idea what you're talking about. Naniwa is one of, if not the most dedicated and results-hungry pro-gamers in the world. Literally the only thing he cares about is winning (much more so than money, since he could easily make tons of money from streaming alone), to the extent that he just doesn't give a shit about meaningless matches like the one vs Nestea. So I'd say he has a damn good attitude when it comes to competitive Starcraft, which is after all his profession. | ||
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PcH
United States83 Posts
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Haustka
United States221 Posts
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:59 ChrysaliS_ wrote: Don't say shit when you have no idea what you're talking about. Naniwa is one of, if not the most dedicated and results-hungry pro-gamers in the world. Literally the only thing he cares about is winning (much more so than money, since he could easily make tons of money from streaming alone), to the extent that he just doesn't give a shit about meaningless matches like the one vs Nestea. So I'd say he has a damn good attitude when it comes to competitive Starcraft, which is after all his profession. If all he cared about was winning, he would've tried to WIN every game he played. Clearly, what you're saying is not true because he did not particularly care about whether he won that last game against NesTea. If all one cares about is winning, then presumably they would try and win every game they play. Naniwa did not care to win against NesTea... hence, he's not as results-oriented as you seem to suggest. A 1-3 result is better than an 0-4, so a results-oriented player would aim for the better of the two remaining possible results available to him/her. This is not the way Naniwa approached his situation... so your argument is invalid and definitely not sound. Plus the main point here is the fact that the money he makes and his fame comes from the people who pay to watch SC2... and he showed a lack of appreciation for the fans of E-Sports by doing what he did... regardless of whether he is or is not a results-oriented player. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:22 Kreb wrote: Good poll. Chose "Disappointing but no big deal" myself, will be interesting to see the overall results. Reason I dont think its a big deal it because its been done multiple times and people havent bothered 1/10th about it. Stephano 6pooled at DH when he was already out of the tourny. Idra has 6pooled once or twice, as well as showed a wide array of different BMs. Could probably mention a few more off the top of my head at lesser tournies/cups, and god knows how many times it happened more than that. The combination of it being Naniwa (who doesnt exactly have the best reputation), it happening in a big event (and no random online cup) and probably also beacuse its in Korea, where they suppesedly care very much about professionalism much more than in the west, just made it worse in many peoples eyes. But really, having player A throwing games against player B when player B's and C's tournament life is on the line (basically screwing player C over) is to me worse than throwing a game when it only affects yourself. It was disappointing indeed, and quite frankly pretty stupid. He really made himself a non-favor by making it so obvious, which regardless of whether it was better or worse will put him in much worse light. He should just have 4gated and everyone would have shrugged it off in an hour or two (EDIT: lol, just read the interview where Naniwa said the same himself :p). But making it obvious really doesnt make the crime worse, imo. The ones who have the biggest reason to be mad are probably his employer (Quantic) and their sponsors, since they use him as a tool to get their name out to the public, and he isnt exactly doing a good job at it. For them it could definitely be a big deal, for most other, I think not. Oh, and I really dont see why the game was played at all, or why there was no option to forfeit the game (assuming Naniwa wouldve used it had it been there). Six Pool has a legitimate chance of winning (See ActionJesuz)... Probe rushing a Zerg does not... | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
And I feel it's understandable, though not in his best interest. | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:54 Turboteckel wrote: I agree with this guy. There's no reason for anyone to spend money on Naniwa if this is what you get. Long term investment > Short term investment | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On December 14 2011 11:13 Kahuna. wrote: If all he cared about was winning, he would've tried to WIN every game he played. Clearly, what you're saying is not true because he did not particularly care about whether he won that last game against NesTea. If all one cares about is winning, then presumably they would try and win every game they play. Naniwa did not care to win against NesTea... hence, he's not as results-oriented as you seem to suggest. A 1-3 result is better than an 0-4, so a results-oriented player would aim for the better of the two remaining possible results available to him/her. This is not the way Naniwa approached his situation... so your argument is invalid and definitely not sound. Plus the main point here is the fact that the money he makes and his fame comes from the people who pay to watch SC2... and he showed a lack of appreciation for the fans of E-Sports by doing what he did... regardless of whether he is or is not a results-oriented player. he cares about winning tournaments... the last game was worthless and tbh when nothing is on the line i doubt much people care to watch. | ||
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Cow
Canada1104 Posts
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Protocon
United States255 Posts
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purpose
Sweden1017 Posts
People need to calm down and understand that they are not the center of esport and that the players are not doing what they do only do amuse and entertain the fans. Sure there are people who do that but the top players play to win and it is the competative gaming that made esport what it is. Not going out and playing a worthless game for no reason other then to make a few people not cry! | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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Tuxedo
United States134 Posts
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Sayer
United States403 Posts
disappointed but no big deal. He wont do it again. Let it go. | ||
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MasterTom
Netherlands12 Posts
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
There are many up and coming pros that would give non vital limbs just to be in the booth. | ||
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Casablancas
Denmark145 Posts
Like the games for 7 and 8 place at MLG when Idra forfeited that game, and there were even something on the line (for the other player (Haypro?) and his seeding rivals. Im not even sure if MLG would have showen that game on stream, maybe the off streams. But it just isnt interesting. | ||
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Saethwyr
United Kingdom18 Posts
I can understand his feelings as to why he did it though, he is a fiercely competitive player and doesn't want to play a match on stage that is essentially worthless. I think most players wouldn't have thrown the match however. I also reckon a few would have tried to put on a bit of a show for the fans by doing something slightly wacky. News on his punishment: + Show Spoiler + also dApollo just tweeted Naniwa is banned for GSL January | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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Stamper
Germany148 Posts
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gabbegubbe
Sweden67 Posts
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Sithril
Slovakia169 Posts
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
Next time they want to ban someone for a 6 pool or proxy gate or what? | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
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nevercomingback
11 Posts
if im a player and lets say bomber lands mules during battles and i feel offended, does that mean bomber is banned? if im a player and lets say MC taunts or gives me a thumbs down and i feel offended, does that mean MC is banned? what a joke. | ||
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Dougalis
Great Britain59 Posts
On December 14 2011 01:11 Fus wrote: There was nothing stupid to it. It could have been a pratice game but not anything more as there was nothing on stake. And why let people se what strategy's you are practicing? ^^ this would be true if nani had any secret strats , but all he does is the same super duper greedy shit game after game after game, thats why his losing in korea because he refuses to change his playstyle and tournie players out there wont just let him get away with it. (apart from that leenock game which he lost cos of a number of mistakes /bad decisions ) | ||
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hoburame
Netherlands48 Posts
He lost two games that he actualy would have had won if he didn't miscontrol for a single second. ( not destroying leenock's pool, baneling nest and roachwarren or not being suply blocked when he was thor rushed. ) He had a tough bracket and got totaly humilitated. ( as he is a man with pride ) So, to me it's not a big deal but it does is disapointing. ps: at least do a 4 gate ? | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
But not really a big deal | ||
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StUfF
Australia1437 Posts
I understand why he did it but I also think it's unacceptable to forfeit a match under those circumstances. What he did was totally wrong but I understand why he did it. | ||
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Suppression
United States5 Posts
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Afelay
Netherlands25 Posts
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wolfravenPR
United States11 Posts
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Sh1bby
Germany711 Posts
Is Naniwa´s behaviour understandable/completely unacceptable/completely justified or is the punishement understandable/completely unacceptable/completely justified? I guess I got it wrong, because the poll is already up one day -.-. | ||
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robih
Austria1085 Posts
koreans are retarded for banning naniwa for nothing | ||
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robih
Austria1085 Posts
On December 14 2011 22:46 Afelay wrote: What do you guys think if proffesional soccer players would do this??? LIKE PEOPLE PAID TO WATCH DAT #@#$! . Pro players get paid to entertain us ffs not to give us shitty games do you ever watch an actual football match? (i dont call it soccer just cause americans do it btw) there is so much wasting time, worthless passing in defense and oftentimes it really looks like none cares anymore. the only reason why something similar (throwing match beforehand) doesnt happen in soccer is a) its a teamgame and players dont want to lose their startingposition b) it lasts 90 minutes no matter what | ||
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.Riot
Philippines242 Posts
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mind_control
Korea (South)25 Posts
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MuATaran
Canada231 Posts
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NGF
Finland30 Posts
What does it matter if someone wants to end the game fast? Maybe he had plans for something else, when this game didn't matter at all? And atleast for me, it was funny to watch if Naniwa would have such gosu micro with his probes lol. | ||
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mind_control
Korea (South)25 Posts
I have to point out the Gom brought the their rule here -> - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 If I translate with my own version : When the player tries violent action to the opponent or the watchers with his violent action during the match. My query : Did he stand up? Did he something put on or throw out or something ? None- Korean twitter even twists that he was his hands on his chin or something hahaha. No matter what he's doing, the young judges think this guy is not acceptable to them. how sad. But Nani/Quantic Gaming also has right to read the rule/rights clearly as litterally if it's right. But as I see this is totally wrong. Because as I see his action wasn't violent at all ) | ||
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NGF
Finland30 Posts
Of course anyone can surrender the game if he wants.. I just dont get it... | ||
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mind_control
Korea (South)25 Posts
Korean people have to stop, if they don't like kick someone out. this should stopped out. Not pointed out, he's every details behavior. Look at themselves. How korean people have such bad reputations also. Korean people have to stop if someons behavior isn't fit to them or different blame to them. or compare. They'll never grow up. | ||
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gammAwolfa
Finland213 Posts
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mind_control
Korea (South)25 Posts
Revenge making more revenge. Nothing making comfortable. Gom presented this after the game is finished & showed up. Spectators also suprised and which was the unexpected us to, too. If it's tha arbeitary then, nani and the players should have know the changable rules before the all game set. And the 10th prize should have delivered to him as well. There should be nothing grudge each other. if they really understand what "Professionalism" is. | ||
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mind_control
Korea (South)25 Posts
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krisss
Luxembourg305 Posts
Edit_ those prepared answers are pretty biased.. wont vote for this one. | ||
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Jimx
Mexico21 Posts
I love Nani, don't get me wrong, but he's stayed in Korea long enough to know that something like that would get him trouble, I mean, look at what happened to CoCa. For all people saying that Koreans are being unreasonable, please consider you might be being unreasonable in their terms. They have a faulty system, and stuff like that (meaningless match) can happen, but that gives Naniwa no reason/right to act like a child and waste everyones time and money. He has said multiple times that he wants to be #1, well, that requires a LOT of mental strenght, I hope this opens his eyes and he starts working on that from now on ... | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
People are blowing this way out of proportion. It's not THAT interesting, and no, your point is not anymore interesting than the 200 other posters who made the same point. | ||
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FinnGamer
Germany2426 Posts
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eNbee
Belgium487 Posts
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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TheKK
Canada164 Posts
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black3200
Canada74 Posts
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ReactionZ
Germany3 Posts
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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Vehemus
United States586 Posts
I love polls such as these, especially after reading comments on a particular story for a day or two. | ||
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Darkfrog
Austria211 Posts
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Zhul
Czech Republic430 Posts
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whereismymind
United Kingdom717 Posts
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z0nk
27 Posts
completely unacceptable? a) Naniwas behavior or b) GOMs reaction? understandable/completely justified? a) Naniwas mindset when he forfeited by probe rush or b) GOM revoking CodeS? disappointing? a) the Match itself or b) Naniwa not participating in CodeS as a result of the Match? As if we did not have enough fishiness in this matter. | ||
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imEnex
Canada500 Posts
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Mainland
Canada551 Posts
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
And then others are like he's angelic... Imo its just something everyone needs to calm down about | ||
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empty.bottle
685 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:54 Turboteckel wrote: I agree with this guy. There's no reason for anyone to spend money on Naniwa if this is what you get. There's no reason to spend money in the player that everyone has been talking about in 500+ pages of TL? come on... Now everyone knows Quantic in korea | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On December 15 2011 05:39 black3200 wrote: Those koreans take their gaming very serious, Nani should have just did some kind of cheese or something ;/ it is a bit unfair if someone paid to watch that and get that, i would ask for a refund Really? Out of the 20 group games the least important one doesn't get played and you'd ask for a refund? | ||
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Japester
United States2 Posts
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BradenKuntz
Canada59 Posts
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Elak
Germany1 Post
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Corwintt
Bulgaria85 Posts
I like him as a player, but people should understand that these are not ladder games - these players are payed for that, and should behave appropriately. | ||
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MrGio
Georgia28 Posts
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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droxe
Germany95 Posts
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Durin
Sweden9 Posts
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z0nk
27 Posts
Please restart the poll if you want some real results. | ||
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banzaiib
United States53 Posts
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Full.tilt
United Kingdom1709 Posts
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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TehAntiphobia
United States12 Posts
Edit: Oh, and for the poll? I see no problem. I didn't have a question about knowing what the poll was about. | ||
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RaGingNyDus
United States1 Post
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
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uThermal
Netherlands165 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
And what he did get people fired in real life. Go to your boss and tell him : "No i won't do what you pay for me. I'll just turn the computer on and watch my mails"... But i think he understood. He will not do this another time. I thought that they would do some crazy stupids builds (like dropping colossus or something like that in order to entertained a match that means nothing) Guess i was wrong. Hope Gom will fix this format though. | ||
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Vandroy
Sweden155 Posts
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10or10
Sweden517 Posts
It's Completely unacceptable that GOM gives naniwa a punishment. It's disappointing but no big deal that Quantic & naniwa feels the need and apologize. | ||
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Dirich
Italy101 Posts
 ):Is SCII an e-SPORT or a videogame? If you think of Naniwa as a person playing a videogame, then what he did is understandable and acceptable. If you think of Naniwa as a professional sportsman, what he did is completely not understandable and unacceptable. For everyone (besides those working in the industry) a sport is just a big SHOW. Of course the sportsman may not care about this aspect, but it's because it's a show that the sportsman can live by doing what he does, ergo he must abide to the "ethic of the show-business" and try to give the best possible show in every situation. If you don't agree and if you think of SCII as a sport and of Naniwa as a professional player, then compare what happened to what happens in the "usual" sports. If it was not Naniwa but your favoured team in your "usual" sport of choice, what would be the reaction of the league and the public opinion about the matter (think about the soccer world championship, i.e.). | ||
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10or10
Sweden517 Posts
On December 16 2011 02:23 Dirich wrote: If I have understood correctly, Naniwa kind of forfeited to Nestea because he could not win anymore and the game was just for the sake of the game itself. If I have misunderstood, disregard what follows: Think about soccer world cup. There are 8 groups of 4 nations that play against each others and only the first 2 pass. Sometimes 2 win 2 matches and the other 2 loses 2 matches. In this case it's sure those with 2 wins will advance, while the other 2 have already lost, nonetheless have you ever seen them forfeit the game? No. It would be not a sign of good sportmanship in the first place, and it is a smack toward your supporters, who want to see you play first of all (otherwise only the champions would have fans), and your sponsors, who pay you to play every game. If you think of Naniwa as a person, then what he did is understandable and acceptable. If you think of Naniwa as a professional sportman, what he did is completely not understandable and unacceptable. The point at stake her is if starcraft 2 is an eSPORT or is not a sport at all. For everyone (besides those working in the industry) a sport is just a big SHOW. Of course the sportman may not care about this aspect, but it's because it's a show that the sportman can live by doing what he does, ergo he must abide to the "ethic of the showbusiness" and try to give the best possible show in every situation. In shorts: if you think of SCII as a sport and of Naniwa as a professional player, then compare what happened to what happens in the "usual" sports. If it was not Naniwa but your favoured team in you "usual" sport of choice, what would be the reaction of the league and the public opinion about the matter. Well, a tournament can't punish a player for not being a showman unless it's a pure showmatch (since then that is the pure reason a player is signed up for it) or it's explicitly stated that "A player must always play his best" but then you can punish players for being jet-lagged since he didn't prepare his best and thus didn't play his best. For me esports is a competition, not a show (everyone might not agree there is a difference but for me it is). I hate showmatches for this reason, both in sc2 and bw. They are silly and boring. edit: changed a tournament from you to make my point less ambiguous | ||
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Dirich
Italy101 Posts
On December 16 2011 02:39 10or10 wrote: Well, a tournament can't punish a player for not being a showman unless it's a pure showmatch (since then that is the pure reason a player is signed up for it) or it's explicitly stated that "A player must always play his best" but then you can punish players for being jet-lagged since he didn't prepare his best and thus didn't play his best. For me esports is a competition, not a show (everyone might not agree there is a difference but for me it is). I hate showmatches for this reason, both in sc2 and bw. They are silly and boring. edit: changed a tournament from you to make my point less ambiguous A tournament lives because it is a show, if everybody throws away matches no one will watch it and the tournament will die, so the tournament can punish players. Also, GomTV is not just a tournament, is the "league"/"federation" or however it's called in english the entity that regulate the sport called SCII in Korea (at least, it is so de-facto). And it is the duty of such an entity to punish unsportsman-like behaviour from the players (there is that organization made by the manager of the teams or something, but it doesn't really feel, to me, like it's the right organization to handle these cases). Every match falls under my "definition" of show, since I didn't mean that in a too literal way. So it's natural there are matches where you don't play at your best. The point is that you are not able to do it due to stuff that is not under your control (psychological and/or physical (like jet-lag) issue or whatever). Pro-chess players can decide that they have lost and resign, but they can't decide they aren't going to play a game and expect no punishment, because for the sport to survive such behaviours are not acceptable. | ||
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Tehkilla
Sweden75 Posts
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SaYyId
Portugal277 Posts
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EriMus
United States11 Posts
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well." If you do not succeed at the game, what else can carry you to become a profession gamer? It's kind of sad that the tournament revolves around the "show" that helps their image. It should be about the players, not about appeasing general audiences. I understand that they try their best to make the show interesting for everyone, so that they can grow and gain prominence, but this goal should never come at the expense of a player - the players are the only thing keeping the game alive. | ||
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wOrD yO
Australia119 Posts
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Karius
Germany6 Posts
What is completely unacceptable? Naniwas behaviour or Goms reaction? How do you expect a representative poll this way? -.- | ||
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iPho
United States6 Posts
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Hamzilla
United States143 Posts
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Minored
Brazil88 Posts
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
If SC2 is gonna be popular this is the kind of things that should not happen. If a losing team stop playing a football game it is unacceptable, this is the same here. Even if the heart is not there, you just play. This is your job. Maybe the match will be bad, who cares you'll just lose fans. But this was a farce. | ||
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vitruvia
Canada235 Posts
naniwa probe rush-> fine with that gomtv punish naniwa -> fine with that everyone making a big deal, -> fine with that just like an average harmless esport related drama. good or bad, its not my right to decide. | ||
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twndomn
400 Posts
GSL is a league formed by a Korean company, made of mostly Koreans. When in Rome, do what Roman does. If you are unable to follow Korean's value and culture, which pays attention to respect, status quo, and sportsmanship, then you should not participate in that league. 2. Principle It is a matter of principle, it's NOT about 0-3. It's the fact that he did not even try, lack of effort. Stealing one cent might not be the same as stealing hundred dollars, but it's still stealing. GOM is punishing a player for the Principle it wants to stress, not because some irrelevant 0-3 matters. | ||
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Wedberg
Sweden169 Posts
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Syli
Germany4 Posts
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oygp
United States40 Posts
You need to understand what "professional" means. As a 3rd year medical student, I've seen situations in the hospital where the patient is obviously going to die. But it still matters that the doctor behaves as a professional and continues to try his best despite the futility of it all. You would expect no less. There no such thing as being a "bad-ass" doctor. That's just a bad doctor. That's the difference between being professional and amateur. It's no different for a "professional" gamer. Reliability and dedication are just as important as skill and ability. If Naniwa feels comfortable showing so much disdain towards the game, fans and other players, he can and should be KICKED OUT. The paying viewers don't deserve that garbage, and neither do the fine people at GomTV and even NesTea who have all worked so freaking HARD to make that game even possible in the first place. He can do that garbage on bnet whenever he wants. Why he thought it was okay to do it on the grandest stage that Starcraft II has to offer can only be explained by pure and simple immaturity. That being said, I did laugh when I saw the probe rush. Being punished is never fun... and I hope Naniwa is able to take this lesson seriously. Not being seeded into the GSL next season is pretty harsh... but it shouldn't make a difference in the long run. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On December 16 2011 07:12 vitruvia wrote: meh. naniwa probe rush-> fine with that gomtv punish naniwa -> fine with that everyone making a big deal, -> fine with that just like an average harmless esport related drama. good or bad, its not my right to decide. I see you have tried Not Giving a Fuck™ | ||
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Lobo2me
Norway1213 Posts
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Aserrin
Uruguay231 Posts
On December 16 2011 04:57 SaYyId wrote: You should add the "Don't really give a fuck" or "Doesn't matter to me" option to the poll. I find it hard to care about this. If you don't care then you don't vote... | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
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eg9
Norway43 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:18 oygp wrote: @EriMus You need to understand what "professional" means. As a 3rd year medical student, I've seen situations in the hospital where the patient is obviously going to die. But it still matters that the doctor behaves as a professional and continues to try his best despite the futility of it all. You would expect no less. There no such thing as being a "bad-ass" doctor. That's just a bad doctor. That's the difference between being professional and amateur. It's no different for a "professional" gamer. Reliability and dedication are just as important as skill and ability. If Naniwa feels comfortable showing so much disdain towards the game, fans and other players, he can and should be KICKED OUT. The paying viewers don't deserve that garbage, and neither do the fine people at GomTV and even NesTea who have all worked so freaking HARD to make that game even possible in the first place. He can do that garbage on bnet whenever he wants. Why he thought it was okay to do it on the grandest stage that Starcraft II has to offer can only be explained by pure and simple immaturity. That being said, I did laugh when I saw the probe rush. Being punished is never fun... and I hope Naniwa is able to take this lesson seriously. Not being seeded into the GSL next season is pretty harsh... but it shouldn't make a difference in the long run. I agree in your views of what professional means but i disagree in your conclusion. NaNiwa is a professional "player", not a professional entertainer. His job is to fight to be the best and imo all the rest is irrelevant. If a game like this one is not furthering his career or in any way making him a better player i can completely understand why he had no desire to play the game seriously. The fact that he is excluded from the competetion of being the best player(which is his job to struggle for) because GOM did not get the commercial payoff that they wanted i feel like is completely unacceptable from "the worlds best tournament". GOM's job is to try to build a show around the struggle, not interfere in it imo. With regards to him rather doing a 4gate or another sort of shortgame cheesy build i do not know if i agree with it being the better option. I want all i see to be real, if they dont care i dont want them to pretend they do. If i want some sort of fake fucking struggle i would rather watch american wrestling. His job is to be the best and nothing else, period. | ||
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Deadlyeye
Germany14 Posts
on the other hand, if one is eliminated and the other may still, if he wins, move on in the tourney, i think its professional to give the best. in this case, no one profited or lost anything regardless of the outcome, a game like this should never exist, and it shouldnt be the one on the big screen. i realy dont get why gom thinks its unprofessional or not competetive, there was no competition, non at all. sure, we as the fans want to see a epic battle for the honor, but i get the proplayer point, that you dont want do reveal al the good stuff you prepared for the matchup. so theres only disapointing, but completely justified (even thou a 5 mins 4 gate would have served him better). | ||
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Camdeon
United States14 Posts
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GreenFaction
United States82 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:41 Vansetsu wrote: While I understand the point of saving your best play for the matches you think are important, and that players somewhat "throw matches" in these situations otherwise, not trying is absolutely unacceptable. Even if you aren't going to waste/reveal your super secret timing attack, you should still play out the game. Even if you are tilted, you should still try to play a game. Even if you don't give a fuck about anything but results, you should still at the least put on a show. Why? Because your career revolves around shows, fans, and other interests. You can absolutely not give a fuck about them and still have some sort of symbiotic relationship, as douchebag-ish as it might be. But blatantly not trying is blatantly saying: "I honestly don't give a fuck about my fans that support me, I honestly don't give a fuck about my team that supports me and that I represent vicariously, I honestly don't give a fuck about the prestigious tournament organization that by simply existing supports the legitimacy of me even playing this game "professionally"(that exists solely because people don't consistently do the bullshit I just did). Indeed, it basically says "If I don't win, then everyone, including everyone who supports me, can go fuck themselves until I am in a position to win something again --- at that point please forget my giant FU and again support me monetarily or as a fan. If you can't think beyond the immediate "well he was out anyways derp" part of the whole thing, then you ignore the fact that great "showings" are part of what makes sc2 e-sports the growing, entertaining, and viable thing it is today. Of course it is one small incident, but small incidents are where precedents should start. Does this type of thing do any permanent damage? Not really. But it certainly shows what kind of person Naniwa is. It should also makes it easy to see that if all high tier pros had Nani's mentality, the sport would actually just suck to watch. I am(was) the biggest Naniwa fan. He really can be quite genius at times and show some remarkable play. But he is absolutely not a sportsman, which is also even more important during a time when e-sports are something that are trying to be considered "sport" in mainstream culture. This person is absolutely right. I couldn't agree more. Exactly. You said it. | ||
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asdfTT123
United States989 Posts
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vandistal
1 Post
Thinking more on it, if GomTv was paying him money to appear in the Blizzard Cup then I can understand why they'd be upset with him. Quantic Gaming should be more upset that he was 0-3 and in the position to begin with instead of what he did in an otherwise meaningless game. From GomTv's official post on TL: "Not only progamers, but professional athletes in every sports prove and showcase their skill through the game and by doing so entertain their fans." I was MORE entertained by this game than an otherwise meaningless ZvP (coming from both a Zerg player and Nestea fan). It's disconcerting that he's being punished because Naniwa didn't even officially break any rules. Quote GomTv: "It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules" If that is the case, if ANY player in GomTv doesn't do a standard, pro-ish build, are they purposely not trying their best? This is a slippery slope and can easily be abused if GomTv can exercise this right. It's akin to David Stern nixing the Chris Paul trade to the Lakers. There are no clear safeguards to prevent further abuse. When Boxer promises to "show exciting games" but uses an inferior but entertaining build, isn't he purposely not trying his best? (I am a graduate of law school and these types of questions are commonly asked in it. It's not meant to appear far-fetched, but to demonstrate the extent of a ruling and how it can be abused.) Also, GomTv states: "NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner." I found nothing disrespectful about it and I found it MORE entertaining and humorous. I am not the 100% though, but my point is that the "disrespect" is up to each individual's interpretation and for GomTv to unilaterally decide that seems unjust. After Naniwa did this, I am more interested in him as a player and will definitely look forward to seeing what and how he chooses to play in future matches. It ups the number of unexpected plays I can witness for my money. Thanks for listening. | ||
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R00Rshock
United States4 Posts
Regarding the Nestea Rivalry and the blow-off game at the Blizzard Cup, I was kinda upset that he didn't play for pride and for the fans but considering how determined this guy is be number one at this game, the frustration of losing 3 games with visible signs of potential recovery is extremely taxing mentally, I would imagine. Also remember that these guys practice hard and fly everywhere, especially NaNiwa. While that one game was fairly lame I am so happy that Quantic handled the situation well and am looking forward to NaNiwa returning full-force to the game. Based on the number of times I've seen NaNiwa do the impossible in games while outnumbered I'm sure he will destroy future tournaments if he can fix his early game builds. He is GSL material if he can keep his cool. If I remember correctly, he's not the only "badboy" in Starcraft 2 or GSL *cough* IdrA *cough*. Plus, for anyone who hasn't already, go check out NaNiwa's interviews. Sounded fairly sincere to me. Although I was pretty angry with him before this guy is just too damn good at Starcraft 2 to hate on. Anyways, my 2 cents on the issue. I fully support NaNiwa and hope that his future games will be awesome as he developes into a stronger player. | ||
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The_Piper42
United States426 Posts
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
dissapointing to watch, embarassing to his new organization, but no harm overall imo | ||
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Keone
United States812 Posts
THEN come comment. | ||
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MauliSchaumi
Germany21 Posts
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DerNebel
Denmark648 Posts
Seriously though, you guys act like spoiled kids. You can't demand that the players put on an empty show for you, if that is the case then you would be fine with all sorts of matchfixing as well. If you can ignore the fact that a match is purely for show and that the players aren't really trying, you're not really far from watching matchfixed games where you know it's a show and the players aren't really trying. | ||
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
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Averik
United States16 Posts
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Heff87
United States106 Posts
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Fall.182
United States126 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:46 Massing wrote: then they should figure out a system where played games have a sense umm hes getting payed to play these "pointless" games. i think thats enough of a system for him. | ||
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Lagoon
2 Posts
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aviator116
United States820 Posts
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fellcrow
United States288 Posts
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ferencziffra
Bulgaria29 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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BoB_KiLLeR
Spain620 Posts
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Dillinger
17 Posts
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Humunuk
Estonia132 Posts
In Bo3 or any other Bo matches, if one player has enough wins that he has already won, the other matches are cancelled, because its clear that 1 player cant win anymore. Whats the difference in here? Its the same just that its now in tournament format with more then 2 players. If you gonna force games like that you must force Bo-s to be played until end. To transition this into people who say (omg Naniwa you must play cos we say so) you also agree that any Bo which has been already decided must be played until end. So the next GSL finals when x player is winning already 4:0 they must play until 7 games are played because fans wants so and that way they get more publicity and esports. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Atleast he made people laugh with his play, what other pro has ever done that?  . | ||
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Exoth3rmic
United Kingdom3 Posts
On December 17 2011 19:30 Humunuk wrote: Why no one has brought up this? In Bo3 or any other Bo matches, if one player has enough wins that he has already won, the other matches are cancelled, because its clear that 1 player cant win anymore. Whats the difference in here? Assuming that in a bo3 nobody probe rushed twice in a row, then you'd have seen some games and the "contest" between the players is "resolved" through the better player coming out ahead. There was no "contest" and he essentially threw the game. Despite an entire thread full of comments, the community seems to show that at least 4x as many wanted to see the game as didn't care and twice as many people found the action completely unacceptable compared to those that found it completely understandable. Essentially competitions are put on for the benefit of the spectator; the spectators here are saying they prefer to see a match of starcraft than no match, regardless of the stakes for the players involved. The sponsors of these tournaments have already committed money to the events to give them value for their money. If you don't play your match, you dissapoint the majority of the spectators and lower the intrinsic value of the tournie for the sponsors. This isn't even debateable now with the results of the poll. | ||
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Miscellany
Wales125 Posts
On December 17 2011 19:30 Humunuk wrote: Why no one has brought up this? In Bo3 or any other Bo matches, if one player has enough wins that he has already won, the other matches are cancelled, because its clear that 1 player cant win anymore. Whats the difference in here? Its the same just that its now in tournament format with more then 2 players. If you gonna force games like that you must force Bo-s to be played until end. To transition this into people who say (omg Naniwa you must play cos we say so) you also agree that any Bo which has been already decided must be played until end. So the next GSL finals when x player is winning already 4:0 they must play until 7 games are played because fans wants so and that way they get more publicity and esports. That's an interesting comparison. I think it's ultimately clear that the bo1 group format for the blizzard cup wasn't the best. But you have to understand, especially for koreans, this isn't about the syllogism of Naniwa's decision. There is an inherent sense of respect and expectation in the korean scene. Much more so than in most other countries. What Naniwa did wasn't wrong, but it was disrespectful and rude. It's not the quantity of games played or the publicity generated, it's about generating the best available competition from the best players. Many koreans would rather see MVP 4:0 roflstomp some random in a finals than see a 4:3 "close series" because the situation was designed to produce as many games as possible. You have to understand the koreans have different values to some other cultures. That's where most of the conflict has come from. Naniwa had his reasons, which were understandable, but he has to realise that he needs to take into consideration more than just himself. He had fans, sponsors, and a reputation to uphold. He cannot just go around, especially in korea, only caring about tournament results. What's most disappointing is that Naniwa didn't even play smart. It was mindless. People may understand a 2gate proxy or a 4gate or even a cannon rush, but the rush was obviously just a forfeit. The koreans know that, and perhaps that above all was what was most insulting. He didn't even try to disguise it. I think Naniwa had to learn a lesson like this, hopefully others can learn from it. | ||
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
in code s | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
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LamaMitHut
Germany187 Posts
will he learn from it? i hope, but i don´t think so. | ||
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SC_Smoker
Austria16 Posts
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colate
Norway121 Posts
On December 17 2011 06:46 DerNebel wrote: Probe rush is a legit strat imo. It has a pretty high win percentage from my own ladder experience. Seriously though, you guys act like spoiled kids. You can't demand that the players put on an empty show for you, if that is the case then you would be fine with all sorts of matchfixing as well. If you can ignore the fact that a match is purely for show and that the players aren't really trying, you're not really far from watching matchfixed games where you know it's a show and the players aren't really trying. Spoiled kids? We expect to see what we paid for. If you buy a hamburger at a restaurant, and all you get is two pieces of bread, would you appriciate that? It's essensially the same. Matchfixing and throwing a game is two vastly different things. You are ignorant and prejudiced if you really believe we all are fine with matchfixing if we demand players doing what they signed up for. Anyhow, this incident changed my view of NaNiwa. Not until I see dollar signs in his eyes I can't be sure if he is putting his soul and heart into his game. He puts his personal interests above everyone elses - that includes fans, sponsors, quanticgaming, spectators and those who organise the given tournament. I'm pretty sure Complexity is happy for dodging this bullet, and Mvp expressed their releif at twitter. I hope Quanticgaming can rise again after this incident and produce results - with or without NaNiwa. NaNiwa needs to change his mentality, or else he will lose support from fans, teams and sponsors. Wouldn't be supriced if certain teams have crossed him off their wishlist. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
what do i dislike ? naniwa ? the reaction of gom ? i dont know what the question means itself | ||
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Link_Drako
United States53 Posts
On December 14 2011 00:54 Turboteckel wrote: I agree with this guy. There's no reason for anyone to spend money on Naniwa if this is what you get. He messed up bad and fully deserves these consequences. People payed to watch that match. The teams train hard to play as hard as they can. He showed nothing but disrespect for both the game, his team, GSL, and himself. I hope he is shut down for a good long while before allowing him to play again professionally. BIG disappointment and a huge loss of respect here. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 18 2011 06:08 Link_Drako wrote: He messed up bad and fully deserves these consequences. People payed to watch that match. The teams train hard to play as hard as they can. He showed nothing but disrespect for both the game, his team, GSL, and himself. I hope he is shut down for a good long while before allowing him to play again professionally. BIG disappointment and a huge loss of respect here. When you buy the ticket you buy it for the tournament, not a singel match. Perhaps you should ask yourself why meaningless games are never played in the GSL. Should Naniwa have realized that GOM all of the sudden care about meaningless games? Maybe. Maybe not. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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Nazeron
Canada1046 Posts
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treemaster
Canada18 Posts
The cause of the heavy-handed smackdown? A ridiculous, unacceptable issue being brought to light publically. These are professional tournament organisers, their jobs, livelihood, and entire business model relies on them pre-empting these problems. I think the predominant emotion at play here is not 'respect' or the lack thereof. But rather, embarassment. It's one thing to have issues with your format, it's a completely different thing to have your dirty laundry aired so brutally. Naniwa made them look bad with the way he expressed his distaste for the format. Really, though...what could have happened differently? If/when he exposed the issue privately, and what response he received, we can't know. What I know, is that a reflexive, thoughtless 'punishment' is a ludicrous result. | ||
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StatX
Canada343 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:43 carloselcoco wrote: Still means a lot for sponsors and teams though. Quantic and GomTV are paying Nani to play, not give up for free his game. Not to mention it's disrepectful to Nestea. I am happy he didn't get seeded into Code S, he shown such pppor sportsmanship... | ||
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asdfOu
United States2089 Posts
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dryice135
Australia35 Posts
I am actually very surprised that a lot of people are ok with this. If a player or a team in any other sport deliberately threw away a game there would be serious consequences in the form of penalties and fines. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 17 2011 19:30 Humunuk wrote: Why no one has brought up this? In Bo3 or any other Bo matches, if one player has enough wins that he has already won, the other matches are cancelled, because its clear that 1 player cant win anymore. Whats the difference in here? Its the same just that its now in tournament format with more then 2 players. If you gonna force games like that you must force Bo-s to be played until end. To transition this into people who say (omg Naniwa you must play cos we say so) you also agree that any Bo which has been already decided must be played until end. So the next GSL finals when x player is winning already 4:0 they must play until 7 games are played because fans wants so and that way they get more publicity and esports. The difference here is that this was the end of the year tournament, you got to see the best of the best competing against eachother. Not finishing the last games of a BOx is not comparible because then you are skipping games between players you've already seen... In this case the fans got screwed out of a proper game between Nestea and Naniwa which after the fuss at MLG would have been nice to see. The reason this was so bad and thus so stupid from naniwa was: - he didn't just 6 pool but proberushed, the most humiliating thing you can do basically. 6 pool is a valid strategy at least proberushing is just saying i don't care about this game and playing against you. - it was a high profile tournament and all attention was on them. It's not some random tournament where multiple matches are streamed at the same time or the pool play has some relatively unknown players.. - Naniwa behaved poorly against Nestea before who was denied the proper right for a grudge match now. - It was in Korea, where match throwing and honor are much more important. - He got paid to play in the tournament regardless of result... I can understand the unlucky setup for the tournament but he should have gotten over it and at least made some sort of an effort for the audience. If he had done some silly thing like mothership rushing it wouldn't have been bad because he would have at least tried to entertain the audience. What he did now was extremely rude, stupid and unsportsmanlike. | ||
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MysToss
Sweden4 Posts
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Optometrist
Canada14 Posts
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Runar_121
Sweden21 Posts
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PeAcY6969
France621 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
No but seriously I don't think anyone except maybe team manager has excuse to call him idiot for doing that. Eventually hurts himself only, even if it wasn't made such a topic. He has right to look idiot for those 25% of people who care of nonsense, that's enough punishment imo. | ||
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MrShankly
United Kingdom371 Posts
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Loeder
Netherlands9 Posts
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mullinmm
United States21 Posts
As an aside to those who blame the tournament organizers for making poor choices, a tournament of this kind has some advantages over other tournament systems, including a schedule that is known ahead of time, allowing players to prepare builds for each game (something which we usually see in the later stages of a tournament but is lost in a more fluid group format). It might not be the best fit for the GSL or the Blizzard Cup, but it's hardly blameworthy--there are rational reasons to use this tournament format. Rational reasons which far outstrip any argument that could be made for Naniwa's actions. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23010 Posts
Based on the communities response it seems that the majority realize it was not something that should be repeated regardless of how we get to that conclusion | ||
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nakam
Sweden245 Posts
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SpiritAshura
United States1271 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
Voted for no big deal. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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YellOwSky
Canada156 Posts
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Ermac
336 Posts
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
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hugoagogo
New Zealand9 Posts
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
It's like for example you have someone who killed someone. But he's insane. So it's understandable that he did it since he's crazy...but it doesn't mean that it was okay. Understandable =/= okay. | ||
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Louis8k8
Canada285 Posts
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laxcrit19
United States6 Posts
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claash
Poland472 Posts
whoever voted for that..lol | ||
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scottycopter
United States46 Posts
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Moosy
Canada396 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1515 Posts
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alhazrel
98 Posts
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catabowl
United States815 Posts
Throwing a game is a huge problem. For the new SC fans, there was a huge scandal in Brood War with gambling 2 years ago. This was deemed a huge issue and progamers were kicked out of Brood War in Korea. While I believe the action was not "Gambling" related, this should be treated seriously. And yes, Naniwa should have lost his Code S seat for this action. I tell you this right now, SC2 would not survive a gambling scandal. The Brood War scandal basically killed 3 teams and a lot of investment money into it. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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WarChimp
Australia943 Posts
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Jackle
Canada859 Posts
On December 23 2011 17:00 WarChimp wrote: This drama has gone on long enough. Naniwa screwed up, that is all. Why do people keep bringing this topic up. Because it's a poll on the front page. >_> | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
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viCeM
Germany10 Posts
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alhazrel
98 Posts
On December 23 2011 14:51 jinorazi wrote: question is ambiguous or is that just me. lol, I wouldn't rule out either, but the question is also mental - I think if they'd put another option like 'unacceptable' after 'completely unacceptable' it would have the most votes. Really poorly phrased question though, unlike your post, which was brilliant. | ||
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4zero4
Canada3 Posts
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
On December 23 2011 11:08 catabowl wrote: What the SC2 fan does not understand about this situation is that this act was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. Throwing a game is a huge problem. For the new SC fans, there was a huge scandal in Brood War with gambling 2 years ago. This was deemed a huge issue and progamers were kicked out of Brood War in Korea. While I believe the action was not "Gambling" related, this should be treated seriously. And yes, Naniwa should have lost his Code S seat for this action. I tell you this right now, SC2 would not survive a gambling scandal. The Brood War scandal basically killed 3 teams and a lot of investment money into it. Some of them went to jail. It wasn't just kicked out. Naniwa is a professional, he gets paid to play and what he did reflects poorly upon himself and his team/sponsors so no, it isn't acceptable. He acted unprofessionally and he didn't even really get punished. gom just receded his candidacy as a choice for foreign seed for 2012 gsl January only which isn't part of the gom-mlg league agreement. | ||
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Finneas
2 Posts
On December 22 2011 16:27 scottycopter wrote: When you go professional, you stop playing this game for yourself and it becomes something a lot bigger. If a team in the NBA (or other professional sports league) realized they were going to lose and just started doing nothing... the fans would boo them off the court. This isn't any different. His sponsors are paying him money to show up and play. The fans are paying money for online tickets, admission, and merchandise to see him play. Horrible, horrible logic. SC2 is nothing like the NBA in this regard, because it is common courtesy in SC2 to quit when you realize that you're going to lose. That's why pros "gg" and quit before their last building gets destroyed. The issue of professionalism is whether or not Naniwa was obligated to actually attempt to win this game. Note that this is in a tournament setting; however, the outcome of the game was irrelevant. It would contribute to neither team's success. The game was more like an exhibition match, but one that Naniwa was forced to play because of bad tournament design. He didn't show up to play an opponent for fun; he showed up to play in and advance his team in a tournament. This is an acceptable response to bad tournament design, because it highlights the fact that game outcomes need to matter in tournaments. This was a meaningless game; the only bad thing about Naniwa's decision is that he could have gotten in more practice. But tournaments aren't supposed to be about getting practice, they're supposed to be competitions where outcomes matter. This game was not a legitimate tournament game. | ||
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naVaz
Germany38 Posts
On December 24 2011 21:04 Finneas wrote: Horrible, horrible logic. SC2 is nothing like the NBA in this regard, because it is common courtesy in SC2 to quit when you realize that you're going to lose. That's why pros "gg" and quit before their last building gets destroyed. i really dont see why your point of view is supposed to be more logic then his? you both brought up 2 valid points which dont negate each other out. horrible, horrible attitude. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 24 2011 21:04 Finneas wrote: It was, unless you also consider many other professional sports leagues also having "not legitimate" games.Horrible, horrible logic. SC2 is nothing like the NBA in this regard, because it is common courtesy in SC2 to quit when you realize that you're going to lose. That's why pros "gg" and quit before their last building gets destroyed. The issue of professionalism is whether or not Naniwa was obligated to actually attempt to win this game. Note that this is in a tournament setting; however, the outcome of the game was irrelevant. It would contribute to neither team's success. The game was more like an exhibition match, but one that Naniwa was forced to play because of bad tournament design. He didn't show up to play an opponent for fun; he showed up to play in and advance his team in a tournament. This is an acceptable response to bad tournament design, because it highlights the fact that game outcomes need to matter in tournaments. This was a meaningless game; the only bad thing about Naniwa's decision is that he could have gotten in more practice. But tournaments aren't supposed to be about getting practice, they're supposed to be competitions where outcomes matter. This game was not a legitimate tournament game. It's the decision of the tournament which games are played. Naniwa was not only chosen to have the previlege to participate in the Blizzard Cup, in a sense he was also paid to play (because 4th and 5th place still rewards some money.) From the pro gamer's point of view its alway better to skip matches which do not contribute to the outcome. But players also play to provide the audience a good viewing experience. The game wasn't even entirely meaningless, it still determined the 4th and 5th place. That is not very meaningful but also not entirely meaningless. While neither Naniwa nor Nestea could get into the playoffs, from a professional point of view there was still pride on the line to not finish last (as well to continue the storyline of Naniwa vs Nestea.) The Blizzard Cup is not a monthly or bi-monthly tournament like the normal GSL season, where meaningless group games are skipped indeed. The argument with the gg before all buildings are razed does not contribute to this case. The gg is a time-saver when a game was lost after it was played out. Do not play a game at all even though you were ask to play, isn't a time saver, it's kind of a "fuck you" to both the league as well the audience. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 25 2011 00:22 [F_]aths wrote: It was, unless you also consider many other professional sports leagues also having "not legitimate" games. It's the decision of the tournament which games are played. Naniwa was not only chosen to have the previlege to participate in the Blizzard Cup, in a sense he was also paid to play (because 4th and 5th place still rewards some money.) From the pro gamer's point of view its alway better to skip matches which do not contribute to the outcome. But players also play to provide the audience a good viewing experience. The game wasn't even entirely meaningless, it still determined the 4th and 5th place. That is not very meaningful but also not entirely meaningless. While neither Naniwa nor Nestea could get into the playoffs, from a professional point of view there was still pride on the line to not finish last (as well to continue the storyline of Naniwa vs Nestea.) The Blizzard Cup is not a monthly or bi-monthly tournament like the normal GSL season, where meaningless group games are skipped indeed. The argument with the gg before all buildings are razed does not contribute to this case. The gg is a time-saver when a game was lost after it was played out. Do not play a game at all even though you were ask to play, isn't a time saver, it's kind of a "fuck you" to both the league as well the audience. I think that this attitude is bad for esports, should the companies really have the power to tell players to play in a specific way ? Seems like Kespas return | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 25 2011 01:01 D10 wrote: Naniwa didn't really play at all. He didn't do just a risky strategy or similar. He proberushed and took his hand from the keyboard, waiting to have his probes killed.I think that this attitude is bad for esports, should the companies really have the power to tell players to play in a specific way ? Seems like Kespas return I think it is good for esports if the professional esports athletes behave in a professional way. | ||
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dangthatsright
1158 Posts
However, given the setting and the expectations for the match, it still was unacceptable and letting it go would not set the greatest precedent for future such events. So where does that fall? At the same time, formats requiring useless games to be played out are pretty stupid unless it's a pre-established showmatch, in which case this discussion probably wouldn't exist | ||
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Wrath586EU
Denmark27 Posts
I dont see it as i lost a nani, it was more like loosing a nestea game.... | ||
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Finneas
2 Posts
It was, unless you also consider many other professional sports leagues also having "not legitimate" games. It's the decision of the tournament which games are played. Naniwa was not only chosen to have the previlege to participate in the Blizzard Cup, in a sense he was also paid to play (because 4th and 5th place still rewards some money.) From the pro gamer's point of view its alway better to skip matches which do not contribute to the outcome. But players also play to provide the audience a good viewing experience. The game wasn't even entirely meaningless, it still determined the 4th and 5th place. That is not very meaningful but also not entirely meaningless. While neither Naniwa nor Nestea could get into the playoffs, from a professional point of view there was still pride on the line to not finish last (as well to continue the storyline of Naniwa vs Nestea.) The Blizzard Cup is not a monthly or bi-monthly tournament like the normal GSL season, where meaningless group games are skipped indeed. The argument with the gg before all buildings are razed does not contribute to this case. The gg is a time-saver when a game was lost after it was played out. Do not play a game at all even though you were ask to play, isn't a time saver, it's kind of a "fuck you" to both the league as well the audience. Except that they don't get compensated for playing well; they get compensated for advancing. People respond to incentives, that's economics 101. Naniwa's play was essentially a "gg", since the last meaningful game had already been played out. If these kinds of games are important to have in tournaments, why don't they always have an exhibition match immediately after the championship game where the #1 and #2 players play another game, but without any possible reward for winning. Why don't tournaments have this extra exhibition match? Because it would be fucking retarded. That's what the game Naniwa threw was. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 25 2011 11:37 Finneas wrote: Except that they don't get compensated for playing well; they get compensated for advancing. People respond to incentives, that's economics 101. Naniwa's play was essentially a "gg", since the last meaningful game had already been played out. If these kinds of games are important to have in tournaments, why don't they always have an exhibition match immediately after the championship game where the #1 and #2 players play another game, but without any possible reward for winning. Why don't tournaments have this extra exhibition match? Because it would be fucking retarded. That's what the game Naniwa threw was. I think it's not. Blizzard Cup honored some good players to participate in this Cup. Naniwa accepted. He should also accept to play any match within this Cup he is asked to, even if he cannot advance anymore. This game could have been exiting for the fans even if neither Naniwa nor Nestea had a chance to get into the playoffs. Naniwa showed that he didn't care about anyone's expectation beside his own personal financial gain. That is may be okay for a weekly online tournament, but not for Blizzard Cup, a product which needs to provide certain production values. Imagine a group stage game where the outcome of one of those player is meaningless and he just GGs. Within your argument, that would be okay. I think it's not (even though a tournament should avoid those kind of games, but tournament design is always a trade-off. One cannot get only boons without any disadvantage.) One can expect Naniwa to play all his games regardless. No-one would be mad if he didn't play his heart out. But he didn't play at all. | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
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Bamm
Sweden279 Posts
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LiquidSlick
United States33 Posts
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OPL3SA2
United States378 Posts
On December 26 2011 02:01 RogerX wrote: I blame the tournament organizer. Naniwa was emotionally unstable as well from his past games I don't. I think GOMTV always puts a lot and effort into their tournament format. Naniwa says "If you don't want this stuff to happen, don't set up the format in this fashion." or something to this extent I say "If you don't like the tournament format, don't accept the invitation." It's pretty simple to shoot down his line of thinking. If I was Naniwa, and had to create some other justification for my actions, I would not immediately turn and blame Mr. Chae. I think that was more detrimental to my opinion of him than his initial decision to probe rush. There's no one at fault, and Naniwa is included. There was no problem. It is what it is. After losing so many games, Naniwa didn't want to lose another. To be honest, I might have done the same thing in his position. However, he did fly to South Korea to see how good he was at video games, something I would not have done in his position. | ||
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
Why does Naniwa not use this as stage experience, or just game experience. He is up against an experienced NesTea for gods sake! Does he not need to practice? Just treat this like a ladder game. Remember back in i think Season 2 or 3, HongUn lost on purpose so that he did not have to face his teammate in the next round? (He was getting through group anyways) It was similar situation, but he did not probe rush, he did a Mothership rush build to entertain the fans! I want to be entertained! Not some stupid one-handed A-move. Ok ok. this kind of behavior, i can understand better IF, Naniwa was actually REALLY good, someone like MVP, but the fact is he is not, he could not qualify into Code S, and he was in Code A not because of qualification, but some partnership. So I am saying if he wants to pull a probe throw away at least become top 5 in the world, so people can say 'oh this guy does not need stage experience that much, and he has more matches to attend later on so he needs to save some stamina...etc' . Some may say he did well in GSTL, but that was one time, out of so many games. Or saying he won foreign tournaments. But non of them had bunch of world class players like the GSL, so please do not make the comparison. GSL should disallow unqualified players to attend tournaments. They need to make all players go through same standards of qualification not MLG placing etc. Some players do not appreciate the difficulty of getting into tournaments like GSL, and throw away games seriously! That kind of mentality is exactly why Naniwa is not a top class player. I have no idea why he is in the Blizzard cup anyways, there are much better players I would have replaced him with. | ||
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:31 sVnteen wrote: not a big deal and i not really too disappointed since games that dont matter arent fun to watch anyway Does that mean you do not watch any of the streams? Those games do not matter either. Actually all the games matter because it goes on your record; win ratios etc. I believe Naniwa already lost his Code S spot. Good decision, I think they should stop just giving spots to people, foreign players should qualify like the Koreans seriously. | ||
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vittra
Sweden16 Posts
I didn't vote, though, as there were no option I agree with. Very disrespectfull. But funny. | ||
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Altercate
Sweden75 Posts
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vittra
Sweden16 Posts
On December 29 2011 03:42 Altercate wrote: This is like flipping your boss the bird at work! This. Exactly. That's likely why I find it so funny and entertaining from the outside. Not a good career move, though. | ||
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Starp
Canada199 Posts
I was only mildly shocked and a bit disappointed but we do not want our awesome GSL's turning into a primetime soap like Melrose Place. We really don't. | ||
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SargonTheGreat
United States217 Posts
Also I think it's silly that a lot of ya'll are taking it personally that Naniwa did this or saying that it was a wrong doing to you. IMO it's between GOM and Nani, some fans love seeing cheese and i'm sure it got a few thousand people to rofl their bums off. However, I do see it as dishonorable towards Gom. | ||
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Stowned
Belgium3 Posts
Who cares about games that don't matter? You could never use them in an argument. Because it would be a meaningless game. And if there is nothing on the line then I don't care about the game. Well others might care and find it unprofessional. And wanted to see an ''entertaining'' game. Well for me if professionalism means you can't be yourself any more then I don't like it. You have people that still care and want to win every game or people who act professional and do a ''fake" game or guys like Naniwa who just don't give a fuck. As a real Naniwa ''fan'' you want him to be ''real'' so you don't care what he did. Because thats a part of Naniwa. Real emotions always makes good TV :p of course there are boundaries but this is far from it imho. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 25 2011 06:32 [F_]aths wrote: Naniwa didn't really play at all. He didn't do just a risky strategy or similar. He proberushed and took his hand from the keyboard, waiting to have his probes killed. I think it is good for esports if the professional esports athletes behave in a professional way. I dont think anyone can judge Naniwa's play, for all we know he intended to try to win with his probes but had a mini seizure and forgot he was ever gonna do it. My point is, its utterly wrong to judge and condem him in any way shape or form, Naniwa should have the right to throw games away, we cant be in his mind, therefore we shouldnt ever presume to assume what the players really intended. | ||
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Methodmaan
Germany2 Posts
To be a pro-gamer is his job...he gets paid for training to improve (and a game against Nestea should always be a good lesson) and for entertaining the visitors and representing the sponsors paying his salary. Imagine you do so in your regular job "I'm not interested in working the whole regular 8h today. I'm going home now after 3h." Do you think you will work there in future? O.o In my opinion is such a behavior not acceptable...sry | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 31 2011 01:06 Methodmaan wrote: I have another point of view than the most here. To be a pro-gamer is his job...he gets paid for training to improve (and a game against Nestea should always be a good lesson) and for entertaining the visitors and representing the sponsors paying his salary. Imagine you do so in your regular job "I'm not interested in working the whole regular 8h today. I'm going home now after 3h." Do you think you will work there in future? O.o In my opinion is such a behavior not acceptable...sry Disagree, theres many lines of work, and entertainment people dont work on the same rules as the 8 to 5 people do. They have fans, ffs, people who still want to see Naniwa play regardless of the issue, for that alone you cant make the comparison | ||
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limbnursery
United States1 Post
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
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BLCabeldank
United States99 Posts
About 14:10 | ||
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tikidude92
1 Post
In the light of publicity, this game got way more attention for the league, its owners, and Naniwa, than if they had just had a straight match. This is a response to a previous comment: As a doctor your job may be to do your best job no matter what, but when a person is clearly going to die is it really worth pumping them full of drugs just to extend their life, painfully, for another few days or whatever the case may be? As a person with two family member not he brink of death I can tell when the effort doesn't become worth it and its time to sit back and relax. | ||
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