Power Rank 03/01/2011
Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
moopie
12605 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
![]() Where did you come from? Racks up an all-kill against MBC and a 3-kill against ACE. Losses to Bisu and ggaemo. Perhaps Movie's getting back in form? Shoutouts ![]() Sup~ (Click here!) ![]() Way to break that losing streak, seriously! Impressive wins this month. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On March 01 2011 08:51 flamewheel wrote: wtf moopie ![]() This is the first month in who knows how long that Jaedong has not occupied a spot in the top ten But he is occupying a spot in the top ten :/ | ||
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
I'm guessing you meant top 5. | ||
Ideas
United States8058 Posts
On March 01 2011 08:52 moopie wrote: ![]() But he is occupying a spot in the top ten :/ i think he meant top 5? | ||
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Well, I fully expect him to rebound next month in Tyrant fashion. | ||
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
As for the rankings, can't disagree to much. But 3 Oz players jut feels weird.... | ||
agarangu
Chile274 Posts
Great PR, I like it. I agree. | ||
ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
On a whole the power rank looks really nice and all but after a while... 3/9 is in OZ when its winners league O_O weird stuff always love reading your PR flamewheel! ![]() On March 01 2011 08:52 moopie wrote: ![]() But he is occupying a spot in the top ten :/ stop haxing moopie :O | ||
Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
tricky tricky | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
I never like the #10 shenanigans though, although Mortality surely is a great contributor to the PR. | ||
Phradamon
Romania191 Posts
- ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 1- ![]() 2- ![]() 3- ![]() 4- ![]() 5- ![]() 6- ![]() 7- ![]() 8- ![]() 9- ![]() 10- ![]() Also ![]() | ||
Zaxro
United States261 Posts
Personally I would have put Hydra at #1 but FLash has been doing so well in WL (and he is well, Flash) that it's certainly justifiable (and probably the better pick, but I still would have put Hydra). Overall the rank is very good, I would rank it a bit differently but it is justified very well (also Mortality is awesome, but I think Action really deserved #10). Thanks flamewheel. | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:39 Zaxro wrote: I'm a JD fan but the absolute highest I would place him would be #6 (I think he is a better player than Hiya, but Hiya is "hotter" this month so him being above JD is reasonable). I don't think anybody is implying HiyA is an overall better player than JD, but he still went 10-4 in SWL last month whereas and JD went 4-3. In fact, if it wasn't for JD having "JD status", he wouldn't be on the list at all with a score like that this month since so many other players have had a better month. I do think HiyA over JD is the right call now. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Ideas
United States8058 Posts
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agarangu
Chile274 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Also, while I like your penchant for punctuality, I don't think you should leave an incomplete rank just to be on time. A day late and complete is better in my book, but I'm sure a lot of folks will disagree. | ||
nodule
Canada931 Posts
Of course, there is a small chance he'll turn into a zerg Stats, which would be sweet. | ||
Zaxro
United States261 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:43 moopie wrote: I don't think anybody is implying HiyA is an overall better player than JD, but he still went 10-4 in SWL last month whereas and JD went 4-3. In fact, if it wasn't for JD having "JD status", he wouldn't be on the list at all with a score like that this month since so many other players have had a better month. I do think HiyA over JD is the right call now. Yeah thats why I said the highest I would put JD would be #6. By that I meant that even if I give JD the maximum amount of "points" I can for "JD Status" I still wouldn't put him in the top five on PR. For this month I agree that HiyA should be above him (#6 is where I'd put HiyA as well, my top 5 would be the same 5 people but in a slightly different order). HiyA's record is great, and he does have some legacy of being very good at certain points in the past (Honestly he may be the most inconsistant player right now; during the summer he was beating Flash and Effort in incredible games, and was playing really good in general, he was in the top 10 Elo at several points in 2010) which really helps make up for horrible he was doing earlier in the season. | ||
Ryusei-R1
United States2106 Posts
Fuck yeah Stork | ||
FakePlasticLove
United States357 Posts
You should just go with your gut and just put Movie/Action/Kal in the list | ||
aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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tedster
984 Posts
ZerO hiYa Really and their mad overlord, Fantasy The first 3 players have some of the most brilliant games on record and can absolutely smack hand with the S-class when they are on their games. When they are off, they will lose to FroZen in a pinch. Fantasy simply takes this up a notch, in that both his win and loss streaks tend to last longer than the others, who just win and lose totally at random by playing brilliantly and making horrific mistakes. | ||
DropBear
Australia4296 Posts
This must have felt like a breeze after January! | ||
Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:13 agarangu wrote: I like how stats is always in the PR, right after Flash (and every other player). he is rather consistent. On March 01 2011 13:28 tedster wrote: My current favorite team of inconsistent players: ZerO hiYa Really and their mad overlord, Fantasy The first 3 players have some of the most brilliant games on record and can absolutely smack hand with the S-class when they are on their games. When they are off, they will lose to FroZen in a pinch. Fantasy simply takes this up a notch, in that both his win and loss streaks tend to last longer than the others, who just win and lose totally at random by playing brilliantly and making horrific mistakes. Let's just say that being a Fantasy fans is a pretty wild ride. Every single game is a nailbiter since you never know what he's going to do next. | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
But finally Bisu showed a better performance than Stork this month. | ||
xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:38 Phradamon wrote: One of the weakest PRs ever: - ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 1- ![]() 2- ![]() 3- ![]() 4- ![]() 5- ![]() 6- ![]() 7- ![]() 8- ![]() 9- ![]() 10- ![]() Also ![]() Why should Fantasy be 2.......... His accomplishments last month are DWARFED by Hydra's. Hydras ZvZ looked invincible until the post-championship curse struck (it appears to be gone by now) You haven't been watching enough WL if you think HiyA doesn't deserve a spot. The PR is perfectly fine, yours is bad though | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I'm on the Power Rank TWICE! That made my day. (Actually, considering how many people read this and what it is, I'm a tad embarrassed. Me next to top Korean pros who I respect? Damn. I better not ever go to Korea because I think I would be totally starstruck. And if I actually met NaDa I'd probably die from the power of his presence.) On March 01 2011 11:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Also, while I like your penchant for punctuality, I don't think you should leave an incomplete rank just to be on time. A day late and complete is better in my book, but I'm sure a lot of folks will disagree. Hey, hey! It's not incomplete! Can't you see I'm the tenth most powerful Starcraft player in the world?! lol jk (Although I actually kind of agree. I really got a kick out of seeing myself on there, but I think there are probably a lot of people thinking "Who the fuck is he?") | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Also, you should write a bit more about BByong or at least give a link, so people a year from now will understand if they ever come to read the PR. The cake is being baked right now, it just needs to wait until the individual leagues start to finish. And then it will be a sweet treat for haters and fans alike when Flash fades into obscurity and Bisu takes his place at #1 forever. | ||
nitdkim
1264 Posts
On March 01 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: LOLOLOLOLOL I'm on the Power Rank TWICE! That made my day. (Actually, considering how many people read this and what it is, I'm a tad embarrassed. Me next to top Korean pros who I respect? Damn. I better not ever go to Korea because I think I would be totally starstruck. And if I actually met NaDa I'd probably die from the power of his presence.) Hey, hey! It's not incomplete! Can't you see I'm the tenth most powerful Starcraft player in the world?! lol jk (Although I actually kind of agree. I really got a kick out of seeing myself on there, but I think there are probably a lot of people thinking "Who the fuck is he?") you took my ID... | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On March 01 2011 14:37 Lightwip wrote: I think Movie deserves the #10 spot. Very small CBNC too. Also, you should write a bit more about BByong or at least give a link, so people a year from now will understand if they ever come to read the PR. Oh good idea, I'll just give the link. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I've probably had this for longer. | ||
blue001
106 Posts
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Spazer
Canada8028 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
3OZ players on a single PR!? JD isn't the highest ranked one! What a weird ass month | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 01 2011 15:33 blue001 wrote: Why does the writer say "lack of sample size"? I think it's more appropriate to say lack of games that showcase their skill (say they were all 6pools or all PvZ which is Bisu's best MU), because lack of sample size suggests that they played thousands of games in February, and since no one can watch them all, someone took a sample of some of their games to watch how well the player is doing. Correct me if I'm wrong but sample means you would watch a portion of a player's games to determine how well he's playing. If you watch all his games you know EXACTLY how well the player played that month. I like it when the writer talks about how well they played during their games such as saying Jaedong looked vulnerable against Snow even though he won rather than determining power rank through win:loss records against different players. This may be extreme but if a player had 0:10 but played brilliantly in terms of micro/macro and used different playstyles each game, that lasted over 40 minutes each where he barely loses each game, you could argue for this player to be on the power rank even without wins. You are wrong. Sample size just refers to the amount of data you have. It does not at all imply that you are taking a subset of known data elements, rather that this is the size of the amount of data you have to work with. Our "sample" is televised games. And tbh, I agree that a little more depth could have been given. For example, yes, JD looked vulnerable against Snow, but let's analyze that game a little from both perspectives: do you credit how close that game was to Snow's skill or JD's lack of skill? Having watched that game live, I was almost sure that Snow would win. His harassment was impeccable and if you were watching carefully, it's not because JD failed to deal with it but because Snow put so much concentration into his drops. Too much, actually, because the reason Snow lost is that he was unable to build up his army mass. Snow's drop control was excellent but his army control was a little less stellar and JD's army control was as close to perfect as you get. Hence how JD could wear Snow down even after losing ~50 drones to harassment. On the whole, I agree with the list. Hell, it matches my own list so well I can't help but think that flamewheel was reading my post in last month's thread and nodding his head. and the changes from his list to mine I can climb on board with. My only criticism is that there are a few places where it seemed like flamewheel was just rushing to release the ranking and a couple of sentences might have made the ranking a bit stronger... | ||
Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On March 01 2011 11:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: You'd think with 3 players on the PR, Oz would be the most dominant team in WL. Well, they are, almost, #2 behind KT | ||
Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:38 Phradamon wrote: One of the weakest PRs ever: - ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 1- ![]() 2- ![]() 3- ![]() 4- ![]() 5- ![]() 6- ![]() 7- ![]() 8- ![]() 9- ![]() 10- ![]() Also ![]() I'm honestly not sure how you can justify Hydra below Fantasy. Fantasy got his OSL gold, but come on, he's still the spoofy, "I'ma win awesomely, then fail like a noob" second best to Flash Terran he's always been. Hydra's the third coming. Seems pretty obvious. | ||
DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
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topherthetoad
China130 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On March 01 2011 19:19 topherthetoad wrote: Brainzerg's ZvT has been awesome recently. Stomped Fanta and just raped Flash. In Flash's defense his build was utterly retarded,but I'm just a fanboi i guess. | ||
_romantic
United States455 Posts
On March 01 2011 14:37 Lightwip wrote: I think Movie deserves the #10 spot. Very small CBNC too. Also, you should write a bit more about BByong or at least give a link, so people a year from now will understand if they ever come to read the PR. The cake is being baked right now, it just needs to wait until the individual leagues start to finish. And then it will be a sweet treat for haters and fans alike when Flash fades into obscurity and Bisu takes his place at #1 forever. Three hearty cheers for sweet fanboy tears~ At least + Show Spoiler + KT can win when Flash loses lol | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 01 2011 19:19 topherthetoad wrote: The ROOster would like to have a word with him and the team.Brainzerg's ZvT has been awesome recently. Stomped Fanta and just raped Flash. | ||
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
Thanks for the PR flamewheel, timely as always. | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 01 2011 20:41 l0st_romantic wrote: Three hearty cheers for sweet fanboy tears~ At least + Show Spoiler + KT can win when Flash loses lol And that's exactly what they will have to do, for this is the first among dozens to come. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 02 2011 00:04 Lightwip wrote: For sure, but to be fair they have done it more than SKT to Bisu this season.And that's exactly what they will have to do, for this is the first among dozens to come. | ||
hitthat
Poland2252 Posts
On March 01 2011 18:50 DarkMatter_ wrote: Hydra #2 is way too high considering that he can't lategame ZvT for shit. His game against Sea was pathetic to watch. Its too early for saying that. He is just untested, and I think this monthly PR should be reward for his exelent month, even if his typical post-championship slump is taken into consideration. EDIT: oh, and | ||
Stuv
Netherlands942 Posts
Kind of weird PR but so have the WL rounds been too. | ||
_romantic
United States455 Posts
On March 02 2011 00:04 Lightwip wrote: And that's exactly what they will have to do, for this is the first among dozens to come. Dozens? Assuming a win loss rate of 75%, like he did from 08 to 09, you'll have to wait for nearly a year for that to happen lol. Assuming a win-loss rate of 85%, like he has did from dec 09 to dec 10, you'll have to wait two years... Keep waiting Lightwip! Meanwhile, how about a bet as to who loses more games--Flash or Bisu... hahaha... | ||
TallMax
United States131 Posts
On March 01 2011 08:51 flamewheel wrote: Close but no Cigar ![]() Where did you come from? Racks up an all-kill against MBC and a 3-kill against ACE. Losses to Bisu and ggaemo. Perhaps Movie's getting back in form? ![]() Still looking very strong. Though it wasn't in February, notched a strong 3-kill against Stars and nearly managed to knock down Jaedong again this month. Still, small sample size makes it hard to determine how he's actually doing. Shoutouts ![]() Sup~ (Click here!) ![]() Way to break that losing streak, seriously! Impressive wins this month. Please oh please oh please, Movie, I miss watching you pull off your amazing bat-shit-crazy ideas that people kinda go "Wouldn't it be cool if..." except when you do it, it can work...sometimes | ||
reincremate
China2210 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 01 2011 20:38 BLinD-RawR wrote: In Flash's defense his build was utterly retarded,but I'm just a fanboi i guess. Calm is a very smart player. I have a lot of confidence that in a "standard" game Flash or Fantasy would win vs Calm far more often than they'd lose. But the moment they try something fishy? All bets are off. | ||
Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10059 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:38 Phradamon wrote: One of the weakest PRs ever: - ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 1- ![]() 2- ![]() 3- ![]() 4- ![]() 5- ![]() 6- ![]() 7- ![]() 8- ![]() 9- ![]() 10- ![]() Also ![]() no for nothing... but just because a player owned another player... doesn't mean that he will be higher ranked... i could say "OH LOL!!! STORK OWNED FLASH" (not going to happen xD) "SO PUT HIM AT #1!!!" obviously, thats not the case. kal at 7 is... well... er... surprising to say the least. sure hes been playing the usualness of a kal, but he's been losing some games that he should win... maybe, just maybe at 10... hydra at 4 is an understatement. hydra just won the freaking MSL Finals!!! lol, so keep fantasy at 2nd... lol. with my PR in mind, id put up Action as 10... hes seriously getting better, i mean, a 3 kill??? AWESOME!!! xD but mortality is just as good xD | ||
Sworn
Canada920 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:38 Phradamon wrote: One of the weakest PRs ever: - ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 1- ![]() 2- ![]() 3- ![]() 4- ![]() 5- ![]() 6- ![]() 7- ![]() 8- ![]() 9- ![]() 10- ![]() Also ![]() Seriously I lol'd at Kal on there instead of Hiya. Seriously Kal looks like shit atm. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the PR personally I think the PR was pretty well written and thats coming from a JD fan/Woongjin fan ![]() | ||
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
I can't help be sad though, at how far JD has fallen | ||
Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Sea had a #1 for playing with TL. So Sea did something! Power Outage had a spot for nearly winning the MSL finals. #10 is Mortality because you had to rush out your PR? In the past I've nagged about day 1 PR's non-stop, but I would never stand for this. Why not edit it now? Throw in Movie, Action, or Snow. It's not too late. I really think that #10 is shameful. In the future people will look back like you can look back now at Sea and Power Outage and understand. You want us to look back in the future and understand Mortality? Understand you were in a rush for a social engagement? The legacy of a PR is Flamewheel's social engagement rather than remember Movie or Action for their impressive ends to the month? Knock it off. Fix that as soon as you can. Otherwise a solid PR for the top 9. Strong logic and reasonable placement. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
I'll edit it Friday I guess. | ||
Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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Roffles
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Pitcairn19291 Posts
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Fenrax
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United States5018 Posts
Action or Snow would hve deserved a top10 spot. | ||
Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11143 Posts
cmon jd you can do it! | ||
TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
I don't know what to say. I guess i'm glad OZ is doing so well???!? | ||
DracoVolantus
Poland231 Posts
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 02 2011 21:32 swanized wrote: But it's March already :psoulkey for #`10 | ||
popzags
Poland604 Posts
1. ![]() 2. ![]() 3. ![]() 4. ![]() 5. ![]() 6. ![]() 7. ![]() 8. ![]() 9. ![]() 10. ![]() Great lost more games in February than he actually won (just like Jaedong lol, but JD deserves to be there due to completely different factors). Frankly, I think both Great and Killer are gigantic flukes, but at least Killer had good results. I choose Sea over Kal for #10 spot, because he beat two top players (Hydra and Stork) while Kal - only one of them (Bisu). | ||
Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:38 Phradamon wrote: + Show Spoiler + And this boys, is the reason why you should watch proleague before actually commenting on power rankings. Other than that, imho, killer should have been slightly higher. Jaedong and great? Well, Killer spent a better month than both of them. HiyA and killer is a good competition for 6th spot with killer being slightly better than HiyA in my eyes. Besides first 9 people, nobody really deserved to be in the ranks (no offense mortality), but the closest person is of course Movie. But winning 5 games in the very last week is not enough it seems. Where was he in the first 3 weeks of the month? | ||
Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On March 02 2011 20:29 Scaramanga wrote: I called hydra, i called it like a boss, ask kiante as he was a massive doubter of my prediction that hydra would be the new effort no. no you did not. i called it in 2009 yo. actually i didnt ![]() | ||
blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
It's a tough time for JD right now, but I have high hopes for him this month. I have a feeling he will get his act together and play like the tyrant we all know and love. =) | ||
Tricks
United States252 Posts
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Darth Saros
Czech Republic245 Posts
On March 01 2011 13:28 tedster wrote: My current favorite team of inconsistent players: ZerO hiYa Really and their mad overlord, Fantasy The first 3 players have some of the most brilliant games on record and can absolutely smack hand with the S-class when they are on their games. When they are off, they will lose to FroZen in a pinch. Fantasy simply takes this up a notch, in that both his win and loss streaks tend to last longer than the others, who just win and lose totally at random by playing brilliantly and making horrific mistakes. Laughed like a maniac, thx for the post. I think Calm could be on your list as well. You never know when Clam shows up. Power rank is fine. Bisu is the better player, anyway... | ||
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Waxangel
United States33097 Posts
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
Do the right thing and copy paste: On March 01 2011 08:51 flamewheel wrote: ![]() Where did you come from? Racks up an all-kill against MBC and a 3-kill against ACE. Losses to Bisu and ggaemo. Perhaps Movie's getting back in form? Or: On March 01 2011 08:51 flamewheel wrote: ![]() Still looking very strong. Though it wasn't in February, notched a strong 3-kill against Stars and nearly managed to knock down Jaedong again this month. Still, small sample size makes it hard to determine how he's actually doing. Into spot 10. Problem solved. Both are sufficiently descriptive and worthy of number 10. | ||
XXGeneration
United States625 Posts
When I started watching professional BW, Jaedong was owning everyone up Get better soon JD <3 | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Interesting. You forgot to remove him from CBNC though. | ||
MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
why does his ZvZ has to suck also, has there been a Power Ranker from Ace ever since? | ||
Nukid
United States240 Posts
On March 06 2011 00:25 aimaimaim wrote: sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo .. no Zero .. hmmm why does his ZvZ has to suck also, has there been a Power Ranker from Ace ever since? Next month Firebathero will be on the power rank ![]() | ||
dani_caliKorea
730 Posts
On March 06 2011 00:25 aimaimaim wrote: sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo .. no Zero .. hmmm why does his ZvZ has to suck also, has there been a Power Ranker from Ace ever since? Anytime during 09 Winner's League | ||
kOre
Canada3642 Posts
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Phradamon
Romania191 Posts
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Also ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() In two months he would not be even on CNBC. He cant deal at all vT and vP is shaky. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edit: ![]() ![]() ![]() QED! | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On March 07 2011 09:29 Phradamon wrote: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Also ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() In two months he would not be even on CNBC. He cant deal at all vT and vP is shaky. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edit: ![]() ![]() ![]() QED! zero beat flash and he's below him in the rank lololol? awful power rank FW | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 07 2011 09:29 Phradamon wrote: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Also ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() In two months he would not be even on CNBC. He cant deal at all vT and vP is shaky. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edit: ![]() ![]() ![]() QED! ouch, this is a real insult to end-of-proof symbols perhaps you'd consider something like ![]() | ||
HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
On March 07 2011 09:29 Phradamon wrote: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Also ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() In two months he would not be even on CNBC. He cant deal at all vT and vP is shaky. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edit: ![]() ![]() ![]() QED! 1+1 = 2 but 1*1 = 1 and 2*2 = 4, however 4>2 and 1<2 so really 4*4 = 1 QED? | ||
_romantic
United States455 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Flash was killing Jaedong's lurkers like that game on Grand Line SE vs Roro | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On March 04 2011 15:12 XXGeneration wrote: I'm sad about Jaedong being this low T-T When I started watching professional BW, Jaedong was owning everyone up Get better soon JD <3 Jaedong should rise next month since he all - killed Khan and has been doing decent kills . If he continues to do this well throughout the entire month he could reclaim second place or even first if Flash somehow fails in the leagues . Thought it's still the begining of the month and anything can happen . | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 07 2011 09:29 Phradamon wrote: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Also ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() In two months he would not be even on CNBC. He cant deal at all vT and vP is shaky. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edit: ![]() ![]() ![]() QED! Please don't use the "QED" if you don't have a clue what it means. | ||
Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On March 07 2011 09:29 Phradamon wrote: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Also ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() In two months he would not be even on CNBC. He cant deal at all vT and vP is shaky. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Edit: ![]() ![]() ![]() QED! The best way to put Hydra's MSL is Calm's MSL. A mostly zerg MSL where the semifinals are zergs, the eventual winner defeats Jaedong in the semi finals, and has no real follow up after. (calm did make it to ever osl semis but who did he beat? pure?) I agree that stork had a spectacular month. That is undeniable. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Faranth
933 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On March 07 2011 19:48 ]343[ wrote: ouch, this is a real insult to end-of-proof symbols perhaps you'd consider something like ![]() that's what i end my proofs with. suprisingly accurate ![]() | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 09 2011 16:12 jalstar wrote: that's what i end my proofs with. suprisingly accurate ![]() He's referring to a partially filled in square. Just putting a square at the end of your proof is a commonly used and accepted symbol. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.#Electronic_forms) The "proof with a hole in it" is not something I have ever seen before so I withhold comment on it. Of course you could be a man and end your proofs with GG NO RE. | ||
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 10 2011 04:17 Mortality wrote: He's referring to a partially filled in square. Just putting a square at the end of your proof is a commonly used and accepted symbol. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.#Electronic_forms) The "proof with a hole in it" is not something I have ever seen before so I withhold comment on it. Of course you could be a man and end your proofs with GG NO RE. I think I saw it as a joke somewhere. I prefer \blacksquare myself ![]() and yeah wow TBLS all losing... pretty crazy ![]() | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 10 2011 06:16 flamewheel wrote: lolol roommate I can't believe you uploaded that picture to post it here. could come in handy, you know. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Phradamon
Romania191 Posts
On March 08 2011 01:08 raga4ka wrote: Jaedong should rise next month since he all - killed Khan and has been doing decent kills . If he continues to do this well throughout the entire month he could reclaim second place or even first if Flash somehow fails in the leagues . Thought it's still the begining of the month and anything can happen . I'll be damned: ![]() ![]() Also, where's your ![]() ![]() | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
Also isn't Bisu 3-3 with Kal this season but anyway Bisu's win % and # is a lot higher. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Phradamon
Romania191 Posts
![]() ![]() ![]() Also this is why ![]() | ||
agarangu
Chile274 Posts
On March 13 2011 10:25 Phradamon wrote: That'a another reason] why ![]() ![]() ![]() Also this is why ![]() Shouldn't you be demonstrating math theories? I mean, mankind needs your natural talent. Anyway, the ranking looks great at this time of the month, I'm glad to see Flash won in MST. This season is sooo exciting!!!!! Flash, Jaedong, Bisu are all looking great again, and the other 3 best players (Hydra, Fantasy, Stork) look awesome too! Don't you see it?+ Show Spoiler + S class XvX matches coming! (where X = T or Z or P) | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 13 2011 10:25 Phradamon wrote: That'a another reason] why ![]() ![]() ![]() Also this is why ![]() There's more to Starcraft than just head-to-head results. Even if player X beats player Y that doesn't mean that player X is better, not even in that match-up. Kal may have had a good record in February but he was playing against a weak line up. In January when facing more difficult competition, Kal crumbled. As for Stork, he lost all his momentum at the end of January with 0-3 obliteration out of both leagues. His results since then have been... inconsistent (4-3 in February, 0-2 in March). Against good players no doubt, but inconsistent all the same. Although I like Stork more than I like Bisu, it's simply undeniable that Bisu is hotter right now. Objective analysis agrees with this: almost all major indicators favor Bisu. Even in PvT ELO, Stork is only 13 points ahead right now, while Bisu is more than 130 points ahead in PvZ ELO. And for fucks sake, watch them play. I would still definitely pick Stork over Bisu in PvT, but in PvP I'd give the edge to Bisu and Bisu's PvZ is positively sublime. He manages to make the match-up look imbalanced... in favor of Protoss. | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
On March 13 2011 10:25 Phradamon wrote: That'a another reason] why ![]() ![]() ![]() Fantasy 3-0 Stork in OSL finals. So this indicates that Stork should be higher than Fantasy according to your controversial logic. | ||
jpak
United States5045 Posts
On March 12 2011 07:02 Phradamon wrote: I'll be damned: ![]() ![]() Also, where's your ![]() ![]() ![]() | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 14 2011 10:43 jpak wrote: ![]() oh, the good he'll do against SKT. destroying all the bad, and such. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
![]() Much can still happen though. ![]() | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On March 14 2011 22:07 mnesthes wrote: If Flash defeats Bisu in the KT vs SKT match 2 days later he'll have all the heads of the TaekBangLee in 1 month. And that's pretty awesome. ![]() lol if he makes TaekBangLee his womanz... | ||
_romantic
United States455 Posts
On March 14 2011 21:25 Holgerius wrote: At this very moment Flash is in a terrific position to keep his spot. ![]() Much can still happen though. ![]() If Flash performs mop-up duty against SKT, I think he can extend that lead, ironically, even if he doesn't get sent out to play at all. Lol that would be awesome. Should we make #1 and #2 Flash then hahaha | ||
EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On March 10 2011 04:17 Mortality wrote: He's referring to a partially filled in square. Just putting a square at the end of your proof is a commonly used and accepted symbol. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.#Electronic_forms) The "proof with a hole in it" is not something I have ever seen before so I withhold comment on it. Of course you could be a man and end your proofs with GG NO RE. Ugh I read Q.E.D. and was like WHOA what complicated stuff is in the quoted post, why quantum electrodynamics wtfff. Oh, that QED. ![]() | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 15 2011 11:26 EtherealDeath wrote: Ugh I read Q.E.D. and was like WHOA what complicated stuff is in the quoted post, why quantum electrodynamics wtfff. Oh, that QED. ![]() the strange theory of light and matter. feynman = baller on a more related note, movie for PR? | ||
Yodo
Russian Federation327 Posts
movie for PR Yep, it seems like he replaced Snow in current CJ lineup | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
All the top players but Flash seem to be in decline this month, sadly. I think Hiya needs a high placement. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Stats | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
![]() And Bisu is losing scariness quite fast right now. | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Whoops 12000 is a large number. | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
On March 16 2011 15:33 flamewheel wrote: Oh definitely so. Very well-played by Stats. Whoops 12000 is a large number. Grats on 12k ![]() | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
In SC, momentum is a fickle bitch that can make or break you. Bisu's momentum is fading, Hydra's momentum is waning and Fantasy's has been see-sawing all season. Stork still hasn't recovered his momentum from his 0-6 destruction out of both leagues and JD only finally managed to bank a win over an S-rank player for the first time this season (Stork) when he achieved his AK. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
Stats is definitely in the next PR :D Yeah definitely. Stats played ingeniously. In the 2nd set, he steadily seized the advantage from fanta by expanding and early game aggression. He then turned his eco advantage into army & tech advantage. By the time fantasy actually pushed out, he was behind in almost everything. The first push was broken by half-an-army-stasis from 2 or more arbs and half-an-army-obliterating storms. GG. Against bisu, he used a dark archons and some game-winning tactics; preventing storm drops (bisu trying to gain some eco advantage due to later nat, the shuttle was completely useless), destroying bisu's 10 o'clock with a diversion by going south and good expo timing. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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zmeqt
Bulgaria527 Posts
On March 15 2011 22:11 Yodo wrote: Yep, it seems like he replaced Snow in current CJ lineup It doesn't seem like he replaces Snow,its that CJ's winning without even having to send out their top players (Snow and Hydra).And this is going on now for like a month.I am seriously impressed with the current form of all their players.Its like SKT winning all their games without Bisu and Fantasy or KT winning without Flash or Stats.I hope they can continue this kind of form in the regular proleague format which will be back soon. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 16 2011 22:02 Holgerius wrote: 4 game losing streak in PvP, 3 game losing streak overall for Bisu. :D I like. Oh come on Holgerius, don't turn into an anti-fan, I thought you were better than that... ![]() | ||
Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
On March 16 2011 22:02 Holgerius wrote: 4 game losing streak in PvP, 3 game losing streak overall for Bisu. :D I like. ![]() | ||
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
And, not too long ago, when Flash got sniped by Stork's 4gate and all seemed lost for the desperately shallow KT, Stats stepped up and finished it out by taking out both Stork and Great. He's got a ton of quality wins and his few losses are completely understandable. | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On March 16 2011 15:01 flamewheel wrote: No swanized. how about free then? | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
His games inspired diarrhea last night. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 17 2011 23:28 TwoToneTerran wrote: Hey now, Stats also 3killed Khan. He's been on fire in more ways than just his AK of SKT. >: And, not too long ago, when Flash got sniped by Stork's 4gate and all seemed lost for the desperately shallow KT, Stats stepped up and finished it out by taking out both Stork and Great. He's got a ton of quality wins and his few losses are completely understandable. That may be true but the difference is that now he's GIVEN to be PR worthy even if he suddenly plays like crap for the rest of the month. Considering the month is only half over that says a lot. This whole WL season so far Stats has been a very good player. He's been the #2 man on a team that has shown a lot of depth so far and is the reason why Bisu is still ahead of Flash by 5 wins even though Bisu has been breaking his back to try to carry a team that *should* be deep but apparently isn't. But it wasn't until SKT1 vs KT that we could definitively say "the ranking will not be complete without this kid on there." | ||
FakePlasticLove
United States357 Posts
- Advance 2-0 - Beat Bisu - 3 Kill Wemade | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:30 FakePlasticLove wrote: - Advance 2-0: Although the second game was okay, the first game was total rubbish. The only reason Free didn't lose it was Canata being his opponent.- Advance 2-0 - Beat Bisu - 3 Kill Wemade - Beat Bisu: Bisu loses PvP to about any decent Protoss these days - 3 Kill Wemade: Wemade is the #2 worst team in SWL format | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
alright here's the deal, whoever (that is on Woongjin of course) beats Flash tonight gets #1 | ||
Monkeyshark
United States406 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:50 swanized wrote: alright here's the deal, whoever (that is on Woongjin of course) beats Flash tonight gets #1 I agree with this!! CRAZY-HYDRA FOR #1 | ||
okum
France5777 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On March 19 2011 08:28 okum wrote: Prediction: Flash tries to do something fancy and beats himself. Only if he opens with a fast Valk. Between Stats and Action, he might not even get to play. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:46 Xiphos wrote: Oh come on Holgerius, don't turn into an anti-fan, I thought you were better than that... ![]() I've been totally against a Bisu comeback ever since he got good again. :D And I think Flash is quite a far way away from losing the #1 spot. ![]() | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 19 2011 09:52 Holgerius wrote: I've been totally against a Bisu comeback ever since he got good again. :D And I think Flash is quite a far way away from losing the #1 spot. ![]() I thought you said that not having a strong protoss is a bad thing? Besides, we all know Stork just can't win when it matters most. But I suppose that's what we all want; A player that can win when you want them to and lose when you don't. | ||
FakePlasticLove
United States357 Posts
On March 19 2011 11:42 Lightwip wrote: Besides, we all know Stork just can't win when it matters most. Bisu hasn't made out of Ro16 in like 2 years? | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 19 2011 08:29 Mortality wrote: Calm and Tyson are two sole contenders for #1 now, methinks.But Flash has already lost a game this month... by that formula, shouldn't Tyson be #1? | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
motion seconded | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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FakePlasticLove
United States357 Posts
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Monkeyshark
United States406 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 19 2011 12:03 FakePlasticLove wrote: Bisu hasn't made out of Ro16 in like 2 years? I mean throughout his career. | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7751 Posts
2) Stats Imo. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
2) Stats' stats 3) Flash | ||
HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:36 HopLight wrote: Well Stats definately deserves a spot but 2 is a bit high for not even being on the rank a month ago. 3-4 feels about right. Have you watched the games? 10-2 this month and amazing play to boot. His 3kill of samsung and 2 AKs are hella impressive as well. Nobody has more momentum than Stats currently. He's hands down the best player this month. | ||
HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:01 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Have you watched the games? 10-2 this month and amazing play to boot. His 3kill of samsung and 2 AKs are hella impressive as well. Nobody has more momentum than Stats currently. He's hands down the best player this month. I haven't watched the games from today (yet) but all the other ones. Even though he might have been the best this month, I still think that there is something to be said for not coming in and taking spot 1/2 immediately from off the power rank. If he'd been on the power rank last month I could have seen it, but as it is, no. Also 10-2 is very, very good and the games were impressive however Flash is 7-2 which isn't much worse and has been consistent for a much longer time. Again I think he totally deserves a spot, even a high spot just not nr 1/2 immediately. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
This isn't just a record thing, it's the way he's played. You seriously have to watch those woongjin games, Stats absolutely spat in the face of broodwar and strangled it to death with his chin. | ||
Tianx
United States1196 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:36 HopLight wrote: Well Stats definately deserves a spot but 2 is a bit high for not even being on the rank a month ago. 3-4 feels about right. I would agree with this if Stats was a rookie, but he's been a solid, consistent player for well over a year now, and if you watch all his games, none of them were close to flukes. Also. Stats 4 bonjwahhhhh | ||
Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: If Stats 2-0's his MST group and ends the month 12-2 with 2 amazing all kills and qualifying for a tournament he should be #1. There's something to be said for overshadowing Flash as KT's star for a month. This isn't just a record thing, it's the way he's played. You seriously have to watch those woongjin games, Stats absolutely spat in the face of broodwar and strangled it to death with his chin. This situation in particular is a little unfair though, since they are on the same team. Stats being sent out first and all-killing prevents Flash from doing so and vice-versa. That being said, I agree that Stats played excellently but he should not be #1 yet imho. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
You're up against Darth Vader, if you lose you die. Which progamer would you pick to play for you/ which progamer would be the worst possible scenario if he is picked to play for Mr. Vader? Flash edges Stats, but I don't see anyone more fearsome than Stats for the number two spot. Unless he drops out of his MST group in a bizarre upset. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:36 HopLight wrote: Well Stats definately deserves a spot but 2 is a bit high for not even being on the rank a month ago. 3-4 feels about right. It's not just the record. Even if you know the result I don't want to spoil it for you. + Show Spoiler + But seriously, that game against Zero reminds me of Flash's best games. Absolutely amazing composure under pressure. How did he not panic and pull all his probes when the Nexus was going down? | ||
Nukid
United States240 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 19 2011 20:49 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Let's try out Mani's thought experiment again: You're up against Darth Vader, if you lose you die. Which progamer would you pick to play for you/ which progamer would be the worst possible scenario if he is picked to play for Mr. Vader? Flash edges Stats, but I don't see anyone more fearsome than Stats for the number two spot. Unless he drops out of his MST group in a bizarre upset. I'd choose Jaedong or Iloveoov easily over those two! | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 20 2011 00:50 Xiphos wrote: Jaedong has been un-clutch for a while though...I'd choose Jaedong or Iloveoov easily over those two! On the other hand, even Darth Vader is not immune to Flash's mindgames. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 00:51 TwoToneTerran wrote: Haha if you chose Iloveoov to represent you in a game for your life then I'd simultaneously respect and mourn you. Iloveoov is 5-0 in finals, on top of his game, he doesn't fall to any mindgames and just clutch as fuck. And plus, he was the first player that gave me "Wow, no matter how much I try, I can NEVER play like that.". He made me to actually appreciate Terran. | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:50 swanized wrote: alright here's the deal, whoever (that is on Woongjin of course) beats Flash tonight gets #1 Fuck... | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:18 Xiphos wrote: Iloveoov is 5-0 in finals, on top of his game, he doesn't fall to any mindgames and just clutch as fuck. And plus, he was the first player that gave me "Wow, no matter how much I try, I can NEVER play like that.". He made me to actually appreciate Terran. He would also lose to your average b teamer nowadays. You would not want to wager him beating Flash on your life. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: He would also lose to your average b teamer nowadays. You would not want to wager him beating Flash on your life. I said on top of his game! | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Even if iloveoov practiced his ass off as much as possible I don't think he could reach the level of Flash. One thing most people don't seem to understand about this game is the SET OF SKILLS you need to be #1 has actually changed a lot over the years and continues to change. Oov had the right skills for his time. Flash has the right skills for this time. That doesn't make Oov any less impressive, it's just the reality of a constantly changing game. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 05:36 Mortality wrote: Even if iloveoov practiced his ass off as much as possible I don't think he could reach the level of Flash. One thing most people don't seem to understand about this game is the SET OF SKILLS you need to be #1 has actually changed a lot over the years and continues to change. Oov had the right skills for his time. Flash has the right skills for this time. That doesn't make Oov any less impressive, it's just the reality of a constantly changing game. Well atleast Oov had something that Flash don't, the ability to back the trashtalks | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:21 Xiphos wrote: Well atleast Oov had something that Flash don't, the ability to back the trashtalks Hasn't worked for him since becoming a coach. He's been eating his words against KT all season (and last season). | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:21 Xiphos wrote: Well atleast Oov had something that Flash don't, the ability to back the trashtalks I'm sorry, but stop now. Just stop. You're making yourself look stupid now. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
loooooooooooooool | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 07:14 Mortality wrote: I'm sorry, but stop now. Just stop. You're making yourself look stupid now. Please elaborate. | ||
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
Look back at your posts and the answer should be obvious. But man, I am impressed by stats recently. The kid got the momentum going and it will be interesting if he can keep it for a while. Next test for him is MST. | ||
gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On March 20 2011 09:23 gen.Sun wrote: Stork #2 I think. Stats #3 Stork isn't even close to being #2. ![]() Bisu is also having a pretty mediocre month. Neither of them are looking good for top 5 so far. Aside from Flash, JD is the only other TBLS thats doing good this month, but Stats has been far more impressive. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 20 2011 07:26 Xiphos wrote: Flash's trashtalk may have cost him the 2 individual leagues, but Oov's trashtalk cost his team a SPL title, their #1 position from R1 and the reason why SKT is 1-3 against KT so far this season.Please elaborate. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 10:52 mnesthes wrote: Flash's trashtalk may have cost him the 2 individual leagues, but Oov's trashtalk cost his team a SPL title, their #1 position from R1 and the reason why SKT is 1-3 against KT so far this season. So Oov have been trashtalking for his entire progaming career and look where he is! I am saying that Oov's chance of backing up the trashtalk > Flash's. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Since when can't Flash back up his talk? Because he lost a BO1 to Ssak? Right because Oov never -- oh wait, what's this? Have we forgotten Clon?! The player Oov placed in his OSL group because he'd be an "easy win"? And then Clon kept Oov from advancing? Yes it's true that Oov never lost a finals, but he lost several semifinals and he never made dual finals. Basically, you're exaggerating Oov's clutchness and undervaluing Flash's by an absurd amount. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:02 Xiphos wrote: Not to mention it was probably by the MSL organizers request to create some hype, that was the first time Flash trashtalked... ?So Oov have been trashtalking for his entire progaming career and look where he is! I am saying that Oov's chance of backing up the trashtalk > Flash's. Sorry but it seems you're really running out of arguments to bring something such as "trashtalk" on the table. Please excuse me, but nobody but you is making yourself look dumb. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:16 mnesthes wrote: Not to mention it was probably by the MSL organizers request to create some hype, that was the first time Flash trashtalked... ? I agree with the point that this whole "Flash can't back up trashtalk" thing is absurd, but this comment here you pulled straight out of your ass man. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
It's not like any of us talk to Flash. But just so you know, when you are arguing a point if you claim something is true the burden of proof rests with you. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: We do get a shit ton of Flash interviews and almost none of those have trash talk. I was actually surprised when I saw the MSL trashtalk videos and the Ssak thing because I'd never seen Flash even come close to a little BM. I like it, though, add some personality. Exactly, which Flash has none. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:59 mnesthes wrote: Please, you call the guy who's among the most talkative when it comes to interviews, the guy who wears his leukemia-diagnosed teammate's jacket and RAK a whole team no personality? Do a favor, and give us a break. Leukemia = being nice RAK a whole team = showing off the skillz. Flash doesn't have the charisma for me to go "Wow, he is an awesome guy!" | ||
red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
He saved Kal's life, without him there would be one less dragon in the BW scene. And how did Kal repay him? Beat him by abusing carriers on Aztec. But flash so manner he takes it in his stride He carried KT on his back and was the only player capable of winning for quite awhile, without complaints He wins starleagues and bullies his rival, one of the best to ever grace the game, just for kicks How is Flash not awesome? | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 20 2011 16:14 POWEROUTAGE wrote: He doesn't need charisma for you to go wow he's an awesome guy He saved Kal's life, without him there would be one less dragon in the BW scene. And how did Kal repay him? Beat him by abusing carriers on Aztec. But flash so manner he takes it in his stride He carried KT on his back and was the only player capable of winning for quite awhile, without complaints He wins starleagues and bullies his rival, one of the best to ever grace the game, just for kicks How is Flash not awesome? Wow, for a while there, you got me convinced that Flash is cool! User was warned for this post | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 20 2011 16:26 Xiphos wrote: Wow, for a while there, you got me convinced that Flash is cool! whatever, to each his own opinion. I for one still see Bisu as a huge crybaby and Stork as someone who doesn't care about the game. But I like Stork. First impressions die hard. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
He saved Kal's life, without him there would be one less dragon in the BW scene. And how did Kal repay him? Beat him by abusing carriers on Aztec. But flash so manner he takes it in his stride So, does Kal need to lose every game to Flash because Flash saved his life? edit - forgot quote | ||
POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
On March 20 2011 17:12 c3rberUs wrote: So, does Kal need to lose every game to Flash because Flash saved his life? edit - forgot quote No, it doesn't. But it does tell you a lot about Flash when the guy he just saved goes "Oh Flash, I am so grateful for you saving my life, I am eternally indebted to you. To show my appreciation I will abuse aztec map imba and cause to you get eliminated from the OSL, you're welcome" and Flash is just like "My loss and elimination is entirely my own fault, I should have worked harder and I will not show such weakness in the future" + Show Spoiler + excessive exaggeration and dramatisation intended | ||
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4296 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
1. Flash (should be obvious, despite losses to Calm and Tyson he dispatched everybody else rather easily, including JD and Stork) 2. Jaedong (avenged his losses to the TaekBang, AK'd Khan and almost RAK'd SKT as well - unfortunately, his supposed-to-be-strongest ZvZ proves to be his demise) 3. Stats (totally on fire, no further description needed) 4. Fantasy (decent record this month, had only 1 loss to a player that's not among the top or on fire - Movie) 5. Horang2 (he lost only ONCE in March, otherwise has 3-killed Khan and made it into the MSL Ro32, while continuing to showcase his godlike PvP) 6. Baby (actually had a respectable record, if only FOX wasn't as much of a punching bag in the WL format) 7. firebathero (qualified for the MST, posted decent results after his slump in ACE) 8. Stork 9. Bisu (both had lackluster performance overall) 10. M18M (more like a shoutout, since he ended ACE's losing streak in WL) | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I'm not sure Bisu and Stork should drop so much just because there'd be a massive backlash. Stats #1 but I am biased as fuuuuuuuuu | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:43 TwoToneTerran wrote: Holy shit, I was skeptical about Firebathero on your list but you are right, he's actually 7-3 this month with really good competition on top of it. I'm impressed. I'm not sure Bisu and Stork should drop so much just because there'd be a massive backlash. Stats #1 but I am biased as fuuuuuuuuu Stats definitely number 1 there, I agree whole-heartedly. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:43 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not sure Bisu and Stork should drop so much just because there'd be a massive backlash. If PL writers feared backlash that much the list would never change. If you can't show results, you drop on the list. For TBLS, they at least generally get a month or so of padding based on status, so unlike regular players that would drop completely, they get the benefit of the doubt. Bisu's month is bad. Going 3-4, on a 4-game losing streak as well as a 4-game pvp losing streak. Stork is also bad (maybe slightly less for no streak). Yes they were each slapped around by JD, and Stork by Flash as well, but that doesn't account for everything. I'd say just keeping them in the lower ranks of the top 10 (7-10) is good enough to placate the mob, they don't deserve any higher. If they do well next time, they climb back up, they don't and they drop off the list until they do. If you wanna go by stats alone, there are enough people passing them this month that they wouldn't even fit on top 10, including (but not limited to) - Flash, Stats, JD, Leta, Horang2, Baby, FBH, Fantasy, Zero. Hell, even Killer had a better month ![]() | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:26 mnesthes wrote: If there continues to be no upset till the end of the month then I guess we can have: 1. Flash (should be obvious, despite losses to Calm and Tyson he dispatched everybody else rather easily, including JD and Stork) 2. Jaedong (avenged his losses to the TaekBang, AK'd Khan and almost RAK'd SKT as well - unfortunately, his supposed-to-be-strongest ZvZ proves to be his demise) 3. Stats (totally on fire, no further description needed) 4. Fantasy (decent record this month, had only 1 loss to a player that's not among the top or on fire - Movie) 5. Horang2 (he lost only ONCE in March, otherwise has 3-killed Khan and made it into the MSL Ro32, while continuing to showcase his godlike PvP) 6. Baby (actually had a respectable record, if only FOX wasn't as much of a punching bag in the WL format) 7. firebathero (qualified for the MST, posted decent results after his slump in ACE) 8. Stork 9. Bisu (both had lackluster performance overall) 10. M18M (more like a shoutout, since he ended ACE's losing streak in WL) Zero belongs on the PR more than M18M right now. There's a separate section in the PR for shout-outs where you can put M18M. | ||
Yodo
Russian Federation327 Posts
Not because of his style. It's because he always beats the players I like. Midas So, you should hate JD as well =) Regarding Flash personality, lately his interview style is changed, quite cool stuff right now. Personality lacking argument not valid any more. | ||
RandomAccount#49059
United States2140 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Musou
1375 Posts
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Ideas
United States8058 Posts
stats -on fucking fire jaedong - looking a lot hotter than before, but still a few bad loses keep him from #2 (losing to s2 and soulkey really hurts) movie - did really fucking well in march. best performing player on HITE right now horang2 - this guys is doing pretty good now. + qualified 2-0 for MSL. 6-1 in march fantasy - coming back to form but still not "OSL champion" level right now. if he 2-0s his MSL group, maybe switch him with horang2. baby - baby is finally on the rebound and living up to potential again. stork - pretty mediocre month for stork, but he's still stork. firebathero - one of the hottest ACE performances in month. 7-3 this month free- free is finally off his slump and 2-0d his MSL group, as well as solid performance in WL. i think if PR came out right now, it should look something like that. horang2/fantasy/baby are pretty interchangeable really though (same with bottom 3, although the bottom 3 definitely shouldn't move out of bottom) surprisingly bisu is only 3-4 this month :O | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
There's still the MSL group coming up though. | ||
Ideas
United States8058 Posts
On March 23 2011 09:37 Lightwip wrote: I'd say Bisu belongs in 5-6th place. His losses are all to very aggressive strategies, except the one to Stats, and his wins are all pretty nice. There's still the MSL group coming up though. he had his chance to get as good results as other players but he didnt. if he does well in MSL i might put him on 9th or 10th, but he was not one of the top 6 players in march. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Zaxro
United States261 Posts
![]() I think Bisu, Stork and Hydra all deserve low spots on the PR despite their meh results so far this month. If they really step up their game (or if they completely fall apart then I could see removing them) for the rest of the month that could change though. | ||
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On March 23 2011 09:37 Lightwip wrote: I'd say Bisu belongs in 5-6th place. His losses are all to very aggressive strategies, except the one to Stats, and his wins are all pretty nice. There's still the MSL group coming up though. ...5th place for a player who's gone 3-4 this month? Don't be ridiculous. | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:15 GolemMadness wrote: ...5th place for a player who's gone 3-4 this month? Don't be ridiculous. ...Did you read anything I just said? Luckily, we get the PO this month as well. | ||
red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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dani_caliKorea
730 Posts
So many other players have stepped up this month while he failed | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Nah, I'd be fine with him getting a low spot at the moment. ![]() | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 24 2011 03:09 red4ce wrote: Off topic: I don't know if any of the TL writers have the time but I think with so many new SC2 tournaments popping up it would be awesome if TL had a non-Korean power rank. It would be quite helpful for those of us who only follow GSL regularly but would like to know more about the top foreign players and how they stack up against each other. PR has nothing to do with SC2 at all. Sorry bud but you're on the wrong part of the forum. | ||
Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
On March 24 2011 03:54 dani_caliKorea wrote: Will rage if Bisu makes the PR So many other players have stepped up this month while he failed Keep in mind he still has his MST group and Proleague playoffs to perform to show that he at least deserves a low spot on the ranking. | ||
GBataille
France19 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:15 GolemMadness wrote: ...5th place for a player who's gone 3-4 this month? Don't be ridiculous. Yeah... I remember when Flash was #1 on PR while going 6-6, so why not...? During a time when Jaedong was absolutely on fire. It would also be VERY strange imo to put stats above Jaedong on the rank (but I didn't see Stats last game though). | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On March 24 2011 09:17 GBataille wrote: Yeah... I remember when Flash was #1 on PR while going 6-6, so why not...? During a time when Jaedong was absolutely on fire. Go take a look at what Flash had been up to for the 8 months or so before that PR and you'll see why that is not a fair comparison at all... | ||
GBataille
France19 Posts
On March 24 2011 10:04 Holgerius wrote: Go take a look at what Flash had been up to for the 8 months or so before that PR and you'll see why that is not a fair comparison at all... I completely agree that Flash should have had that spot (Jaedong could have claimed it, but it was nothing wrong with giving it to Flash)... it was just to say that it isn't preposterous to keep a good player on the PR even though he doesn't have a very good record one specific month. Bisu has been beastly too this season, and we are not talking about staying at #1, we are talking about being on the rank at all ffs -_- | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On March 24 2011 09:17 GBataille wrote: lol so many people hatinng on Bisu. It would be very strange imo if he didn't make the rank. He should probably be about 5 imo. Yeah... I remember when Flash was #1 on PR while going 6-6, so why not...? During a time when Jaedong was absolutely on fire. It would also be VERY strange imo to put stats above Jaedong on the rank (but I didn't see Stats last game though). keeping Flash at number 1 happened to be one of the most controversial decisions in Power Rank history Bisu's dominance during the previous months is not even half of Flash's back then either | ||
Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:32 Lightwip wrote: ...Did you read anything I just said? Luckily, we get the PO this month as well. Yeah, I did. Because he lost to "aggressive strategies" and winning some good games, he deserves 5th or 6th despite having a losing record so far this month? That's clearly absurd. He's lost four straight games, and hasn't beaten anybody S-class this month to make up for it. | ||
HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
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GBataille
France19 Posts
On March 24 2011 11:29 swanized wrote: keeping Flash at number 1 happened to be one of the most controversial decisions in Power Rank history Bisu's dominance during the previous months is not even half of Flash's back then either Sure, but to be honest being half as dominant as the best player on the rank usually buys you a high spot on the PR. Now it's about even staying on the ranking at all. I really don't like Bisu because of all his ridicules fans anyway so I couldn't care less. It's just that it seens unfair to drop him entirely (unless he loses in MST lollollol). | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
On March 24 2011 19:52 HopLight wrote: The whole Bisu discussion is solved so easily, if he crushes his MST group he stays fairly high on the PR(4-6ish) , OK performance = low PR rank, dropping out 0-2 = dropping off the power rank. Unless it's Flash who can go 0-2 in MSL/OSL and stay at 1-3 in PR. | ||
okum
France5777 Posts
On March 24 2011 21:35 Hazard wrote: Unless it's Flash who can go 0-2 in MSL/OSL and stay at 1-3 in PR. It's too bad for Bisu that he isn't Flash. | ||
HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
On March 24 2011 21:35 Hazard wrote: Unless it's Flash who can go 0-2 in MSL/OSL and stay at 1-3 in PR. Flash was completely tearing up proleague at the time, Bisu has not been this month, you really don't see the difference? Besides Bisu 2-0d his MST group convincingly showing that he at least belong on the PR so what are you whining about? | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
On March 24 2011 21:47 okum wrote: It's too bad for Bisu that he isn't Flash. Exactly why is it bad? Isn't Bisu the highest payed progamer? And he has a bunch of personal/team titles. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
On March 24 2011 21:35 Hazard wrote: ?Unless it's Flash who can go 0-2 in MSL/OSL and stay at 1-3 in PR. When he did that, he was demoted to #5. #5. I'm not totally for the idea of dropping Bisu out of next month's PR either, but at least get your facts right. | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 24 2011 21:35 Hazard wrote: Unless it's Flash who can go 0-2 in MSL/OSL and stay at 1-3 in PR. To be fair, Bisu had a similar drop back when he dropped both leagues in the ToTM era. | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
On March 24 2011 22:32 TwoToneTerran wrote: He's also not the fucking bonjwa, what the hell how are you even comparing them? Flash got leeway for having a dumpy month because he just won double titles and completely dominated proleague. Bisu has ONLY dominated proleague and when he stops doing that he gets the same treatment? Bisu had his time riding his bonjwa train long time ago. It's not the point I'm making here and overall Flash is better than anyone today and Power Ranking is accurate. Only two leagues were available for both Bisu and Flash - no difference here right? PR spot is about monthly performance and if player "x" gets high# treatment based on his previous win/lose % than why player "y" shouldn't? I'm not suggesting 1st spot btw but Bisu should be ranked high. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 24 2011 21:35 Hazard wrote: Unless it's Flash who can go 0-2 in MSL/OSL and stay at 1-3 in PR. Flash dropped to #5 in the month he fell from OSL/MSL. He returned to #1 only after mopping up in SWL when all other #1 candidates were showing holes in their game. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 24 2011 23:16 Hazard wrote: Bisu had his time riding his bonjwa train long time ago. It's not the point I'm making here and overall Flash is better than anyone today and Power Ranking is accurate. Only two leagues were available for both Bisu and Flash - no difference here right? PR spot is about monthly performance and if player "x" gets high# treatment based on his previous win/lose % than why player "y" shouldn't? I'm not suggesting 1st spot btw but Bisu should be ranked high. Since when was Bisu ever a bonjwa? ...you seem to be living in a different world than everybody else. | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
On March 25 2011 00:22 Mortality wrote: Since when was Bisu ever a bonjwa? ...you seem to be living in a different world than everybody else. That's the problem here, when peepz find weaknesses in Bisu's game and his overall skill - it's okay but when you try to do that with Flash/JD until recently - you are living in your own world ![]() It depends from which side you look on it and I'm talking 2007 Bisu when he ended Savior's bonjwa reign before Jaedong became bonjwa. Who was bonjwa in that gap? I'm not gonna argue but I have my own opinion that it was Bisu (excluding he never won both tourneys which is his curse ![]() | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 25 2011 01:09 Hazard wrote: That's the problem here, when peepz find weaknesses in Bisu's game and his overall skill - it's okay but when you try to do that with Flash/JD until recently - you are living in your own world ![]() It depends from which side you look on it and I'm talking 2007 Bisu when he ended Savior's bonjwa reign before Jaedong became bonjwa. Who was bonjwa in that gap? I'm not gonna argue but I have my own opinion that it was Bisu (excluding he never won both tourneys which is his curse ![]() There doesn't have to be a "bonjwa" at every point. Bisu was the best player in the world between March 2007 and maybe November 2007, and again during the era of the Six Dragons. He was by no means "Bonjwa"--he was scary, but looked hardly untouchable. In his first era of dominance, he was rather poor in Proleague, and in his second, plenty of people were clipping at his heels. And as you said, Bisu's always failed the OSL, except for maybe one semifinal run. Bisu's never been bonjwa. Best player in the world isn't bonjwa... Anyway, I'd probably put Bisu somewhere between 5-8 inclusive. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 25 2011 01:09 Hazard wrote: That's the problem here, when peepz find weaknesses in Bisu's game and his overall skill - it's okay but when you try to do that with Flash/JD until recently - you are living in your own world ![]() It depends from which side you look on it and I'm talking 2007 Bisu when he ended Savior's bonjwa reign before Jaedong became bonjwa. Who was bonjwa in that gap? I'm not gonna argue but I have my own opinion that it was Bisu (excluding he never won both tourneys which is his curse ![]() Jaedong was never a bonjwa either. I have no idea what world you are living in. If you want to think of Jaedong as anything it was more like "#1 contender." Flash did not become the 5th bonjwa until his defeat of Jaedong in both OSL and MSL finals in the same season, at which point he became undisputed. The closest Bisu can boast is his ClubDay MSL/GOM Classic Season 2 run but there's a huge difference between having a single dominant season ("dominant" meaning high win % + SL win + in this case a win in another important tournament) and having over a year of 80+% wins and appearing in every single SL final during that time. If the standard for being bonjwa was simply "beat a previous bonjwa in a finals + have high + multiple finals appearances" then there are other players like Nal_Ra and July who would have the title as well. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bonjwa is Michael Jordan, Sugar Ray Robinson, or Jesse Owens. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bisu was never undisputed. Neither was Jaedong. Flash was. | ||
GBataille
France19 Posts
On March 25 2011 03:40 Mortality wrote: Jaedong was never a bonjwa either. I have no idea what world you are living in. If you want to think of Jaedong as anything it was more like "#1 contender." Flash did not become the 5th bonjwa until his defeat of Jaedong in both OSL and MSL finals in the same season, at which point he became undisputed. The closest Bisu can boast is his ClubDay MSL/GOM Classic Season 2 run but there's a huge difference between having a single dominant season ("dominant" meaning high win % + SL win + in this case a win in another important tournament) and having over a year of 80+% wins and appearing in every single SL final during that time. If the standard for being bonjwa was simply "beat a previous bonjwa in a finals + have high + multiple finals appearances" then there are other players like Nal_Ra and July who would have the title as well. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bonjwa is Michael Jordan, Sugar Ray Robinson, or Jesse Owens. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bisu was never undisputed. Neither was Jaedong. Flash was. You know a lot and I usually apreciate your posting, but you simplify too much. Both Jaedong and Bisu were undisputed at their peaks. I remember when it seemed like Bisu couldn't lose if he only got the scout in. It was every bit as frustrating as it was to see Flash when he was at his peak :/ (im a zerg fan <3) lol, Jaedong a "#1 contender" when he was ranked #1 in KeSPA 11 coesecutive months? Give me a break ffs... | ||
TaimalaiX
Canada88 Posts
On March 25 2011 03:57 GBataille wrote: You know a lot and I usually apreciate your posting, but you simplify too much. Both Jaedong and Bisu were undisputed at their peaks. I remember when it seemed like Bisu couldn't lose if he only got the scout in. It was every bit as frustrating as it was to see Flash when he was at his peak :/ (im a zerg fan <3) lol, Jaedong a "#1 contender" when he was ranked #1 in KeSPA 11 coesecutive months? Give me a break ffs... Really? We're having this discussion again? Maybe Bisu/JD/Stork/July etc. are all bonjwas to you, but that is not the commonly held view. Most people seem to believe that to become a bonjwa you need to both have the aura of invincibility (watch people pleading with Flash in group selections) and push the boundaries of previous achievements. Yes there may have been spans of 6-8 months where Bisu and JD were the best in the world, but they never distanced themselves from their competitors to the point where victory was all but assured. People were complaining that Flash made JD look underpowered.... Come on people, stop eating the lead paint.... | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 25 2011 03:57 GBataille wrote: You know a lot and I usually apreciate your posting, but you simplify too much. Both Jaedong and Bisu were undisputed at their peaks. I remember when it seemed like Bisu couldn't lose if he only got the scout in. It was every bit as frustrating as it was to see Flash when he was at his peak :/ (im a zerg fan <3) lol, Jaedong a "#1 contender" when he was ranked #1 in KeSPA 11 coesecutive months? Give me a break ffs... Other players have been #1 other than the bonjwas. Would you put Maurice Greene on the same level as Jesse Owens and Carl Lewis? Would you put Shaq or Karl Malone on the same level as Jordan and Jabbar? Bonjwas are different. By your standard, July and Nal_Ra should also be bonjwas but they are not. This is the consensus of the BW community. You are free to say "I think it should be different" but the consensus disagrees. Bisu never escaped out from under Stork (and from Terrans). In his third consecutive season making finals he fell to Mind in MSL and then got 3-0 obliterated by Stork in OSL (who he had previously only beaten 3-2 in the MSL finals), not to mention that many players would have looked forward to a Savior vs Bisu rematch in a bo5 (leading up to their bo3 face-off in Ever OSL -- Bisu won 2-1 with slightly P favoring maps -- Savior had produced 17-2 results vs P over a 6 month period so even now looking back I do not think a bo5 victory would be anything close to certain on a balanced map pool). With Bisu there had been talk about bonjwahood when he made his third finals but that talk died when he lost to Mind. The "bonjwa theory" was introduced prior to his finals: NaDa earned 3 MSL golds before an OSL gold (actually OSL gold in same season as 3rd MSL), Oov earned 3 MSL golds then an OSL gold and had overwhelming stats against NaDa, Savior earned 3 MSL gold (and a silver) and an OSL gold (simultaneous with another MSL silver) and had overwhelming stats against Oov. Bisu was fitting with this theory: MSL gold, MSL gold, 3-0 over Savior, but then earned MSL silver and was broken in OSL. The next season, MSL total failure, OSL was rolled by Flash. At this point we're stretching the limits of momentum. Next season, MSL AND OSL failure in the opening round. At this point Bisu's bonjwa hope has died. By the time of ClubDay MSL, Bisu's previous results no longer counted towards being bonjwa. He had been stopped too many times. With Jaedong he was truly on the verge of being crowned, the first player since Savior, but the Power Outage event produced doubt that he had really earned the title of Bonjwa. The issue of JD not being bonjwa is a little more controversial in this regard: let's pretend that the Power Outage had not happened. At the time of NATE MSL the only thing keeping Jaedong from being crowned was that he needed to beat his last rival: Flash, who was obliterating everyone in PL and had won GOM Classic the previous season and was in the finals of both leagues, something JD himself had not ever accomplished. If the Power Outage had not happened, the 3-1 result might have been enough to crown JD. But it happened and although I think most people felt JD's win was fair, the consensus was that Flash had not been eliminated as a rival. Flash was still "equal." It took a while in JD being able to reach the level of being on verge of coronation because his record was a bit more spotty. If he had a stronger run earlier this issue might never have meant anything, but his finals streak was interrupted and there were players during this time period who were strong rivals (e.g. Flash, Bisu and Stork -- all of whom produced golds between Ever 07 and Power Outage -- as well as Fantasy). In other words, he had too many "equals." By the time of NATE, JD had stood above all these rivals except one for only that one last hurdle. The consensus was that the Power Outage result was not sufficient. When JD faced Flash yet again -- Flash having even stronger momentum now -- JD failed. Thus, even though it was Flash who blocked JD, it should be thought of that JD was the contender to Flash's title because JD had never eliminated Flash as an "equal." JD's legacy is every bit as strong as the bonjwas -- which I think is part of the reason why many people don't use that term anymore -- but he never became one himself. | ||
Elroi
Sweden5587 Posts
Bisu won 2-1 with slightly P favoring maps -- Savior had produced 17-2 results vs P over a 6 month period so even now looking back I do not think a bo5 victory would be anything close to certain on a balanced map pool). And I'm convinced that Jaedong would have stomped Flash if they played on fair maps when Flash took the dual gold. ... But this doesn't change the fact that Flash won. I would like to ask you Mortality, how you would compare the dominance of Savior and the dominance of Jaedong at their primes. (And please don't downplay Jaedongs achevements, like you tend to do imo ![]() I'm a LURKER ![]() ![]() ![]() | ||
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
I think the modern comparisons are silly especially Savior vs Jaedong. Newer players play a shitload more games, against tougher competition, and still come out with as good if not better stats. Even before his crushing against Bisu he was 65% overall compared to Jaedong's 68% in 619 games compared to 180 games. People just say 'Oh but he had an aura' or something. Well personally i find the current TBLS much more impressive because of who they have to regularly face. | ||
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 25 2011 07:57 Elroi wrote: Im not an heretic I don't say that Bisu and Jaedong were bonjwas lol. I don't even like the term. I just feel that they were the best too at their time. Besides, the first thing about being a bonjwa in SC is to be a terran (Savior was an anomaly lol). But I remember a time tough when I felt like Bisu couldn't lose, like no matter who he played against and what map it was on. I don't say that it was as dominant (of course it wasn't) as Flash was/is, but it is comparable and you shouldn't completely forget it and judge Bisu in PR with completely different standards than Flash. (I really don't like Bisu btw, I'm not saying this because I'm a fanboy...) And I'm convinced that Jaedong would have stomped Flash if they played on fair maps when Flash took the dual gold. ... But this doesn't change the fact that Flash won. I would like to ask you Mortality, how you would compare the dominance of Savior and the dominance of Jaedong at their primes. (And please don't downplay Jaedongs achevements, like you tend to do imo ![]() I'm a LURKER ![]() ![]() ![]() While I am not Mortality I can give you a bit of info on Savior from his prime. He made 5 MSL finals in a row, won 3 of them (lost a ZvZ to chojja and the 0-3 vs Bisu). Many people believe he would probably have won a few OSLs as well if he had only managed to actually get through the offliners and qualify for them (pure speculations obviously, but many a good player have been stuck in the offliners as they seem to be different thing than broadcasted matches, and in broadcasted matches savior was king), when he actually managed to get through the offliners he went ahead and won the entire thing on his first try while going dual finals on pretty much the most atrocious ZvT map pool you could find playing the absolute best TvZ players of that time (Midas, Hwasin, Nada, Iris) For reference when Jaedong had a similar hard ZvT map pool he got 3-0 in the finals by ForGG. I seem to remember reading an interview with Savior sometime before the MSL final vs Bisu where he said that he had never even during practice lost a BO5 vs any toss, that`s how good he was during his prime. Every ZvP game he played you just knew Savior would win in some way, he was even cheese proof defending whatever kind of cheese P players would throw at him with inferior builds. For good examples go watch his game vs Daezang@Peaks of Bakadu or his game vs Stork@Loki. Before his loss against Bisu in the EVER2007 OSL he was sitting at a 75% winrate lifetime vs P, similar to what he had before he went ahead and lost 3-0 vs Bisu (which lowered his win% by 4%). In ZvT he was also really dominant, but not in the same way as his BO3 and BO5 series often got down to the last game to be decided (see again, bad ZvT maps and the inherent slight imbalance in the matchup) but somehow you just knew that Savior would pull through as he did every time. In fact I don`t think he ever lost a BOx series against any P or T before he lost vs Bisu (his 6th starleague final), having his only BOx losses coming in ZvZ. (in those pre Jaedong days consider a big coin flip, and nothing like the matchup is today). So yeah Savior was an absolute beast during his prime and every time he went into a BOx series you knew he would turn out the eventual winner unless it was ZvZ where he COULD lose due to bad luck... As for his achievements, he was in 5 MSL finals in a row (although easier to do in a few of the MSLs he played since they had loser brackets in MSL for a long time) winning 3 of them a feat nobody else have done before or after him (Nada the most accomplished player of all time was in 4 in a row, flash and bisu in 3 each), and won the only OSL he qualified for during his prime. He was truly one of the best and most dominant players ever, and its a shame that his legacy is that of match fixing. Anyone who claims that he was not as scary as Flash or Jaedong or anyone after him, obviously was not around when he was in his prime or have a bad memory. Edit: Those who mention that the old players had worse win rates and that people today play against tougher competition, should remember that back in the days there was much less games of PL so most of the games of Savior and those before him was actually from Starleagues against the best players around, not random chumps in PL who never qualifies for MSL\OSL. Also Savior had no winners league to boost his winrates, he got it playing mostly BOx series against the best players around. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
In peak dominance, Savior was unambiguously stronger than JD. I think the strength of JD compared to Savior is that JD has had more perseverance, hence a longer and healthier career. Savior had a lot of difficulty surviving the generational gap. I think that Jaedong will have less difficulty doing so, despite his current struggles. I like Oystein's points, and regarding PL I want to add that the format used to be 3 1v1 and 2 2v2, so the odds of running into a tougher opponent were much higher. Actually, if you go back to the REALLY old days and look at really old results, you'll notice that for example Boxer faced off against Yellow an absurd amount of times. I don't have time to check right now but I think over their careers they have played each other almost SEVENTY times, and most of that was early on. | ||
SimonB
United States1088 Posts
"five msl finals in a row OMG" Yeah, while failing the OSL prelims season after season. He wasn't close to the teamleague monster that Flash or Jaedong have been, and he was able to focus on MSL almost exclusively for most of his run. Was he a great player? Yes. But he's well behind that of Nada, iloveoov, Flash, and yes, Jaedong. Titles, winning percentage, ELO. He's outstripped in all three by the latter four. Oh, but he has the AURA™. | ||
corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On March 26 2011 02:13 SimonB wrote: Ugh, I can't stand Savior. He was not even close to the most dominant. "five msl finals in a row OMG" Yeah, while failing the OSL prelims season after season. He wasn't close to the teamleague monster that Flash or Jaedong have been, and he was able to focus on MSL almost exclusively for most of his run. Was he a great player? Yes. But he's well behind that of Nada, iloveoov, Flash, and yes, Jaedong. Titles, winning percentage, ELO. He's outstripped in all three by the latter four. Oh, but he has the AURA™. I'm tempted to say you're clueless. sAviOr series play and particularly his ZvT was incredible. 42-17 (71%) (April 2005 to March 2007) Series play: 12-0 2-0 iloveoov (19-2 (91%) vs other Zergs!) 3-0 iloveoov 2-0 Yooi (3-4 (42%) vs other Zergs) 3-2 Midas (19-7 (73%) vs other Zergs) 3-0 Boxer (19-4 (83%) vs other Zergs) 3-1 Nada (13-4 (77%) vs other Zergs) 2-1 Justin (5-3 (63%) vs other Zergs) 2-1 Midas 3-2 Hwasin (25-12 (68%) vs other Zergs) 3-2 Iris (9-10 (47%) vs other Zergs) 3-1 Nada 3-1 Casy (23-11 (68%) vs other Zergs) (thanks to Ver for the data) That's a pretty good TvZer line-up, isn't it ? His two SL run is incredible. It featured Midas, Hwasin, Nada and Iris (the worst at the match-up, but the one who was closest to taking him done) on maps that were among the biggest TvZ jokes ever. I mean, everybody talks about Longinus II and Reverse Temple, as though Neo Arkanoid was a an ok ZvT map (free 14CC against forced pool first build, sounds great). During his era of dominance, no other zerg player could come close to those Terrans. Find something else like that, you'll have some trouble. It will probably be Oov's/Nada TvZ. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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e_i_pi_1_0
933 Posts
I didn't start following the BW scene until just after Batoo OSL. How were the maps back then compared to, say, the maps in Arena MSL, Hana Daetoo, and Bigfile MSL? And am I the only one that giggled at "GOAT"? | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
And Savior... I feel like it's too easy for new players to blindly hate him. Match fixing scandal, trash talk that couldn't be backed up and vocal fans. For you young kids who didn't see Savior rise from just a snot nosed brat to bonjwa it must have seemed like you were staring at a disappointing old has been. Like a former athlete who drinks beer and cusses at the tv all day. But Savior was great. You had to live through it. If you look back from a modern perspective you don't see the modernization that happened because of him much like how if you look back at Boxer you don't see the ingenuity... just a bunch "progamers" getting their asses kicked by tricks that are now common knowledge. Savior faced the most impressive TvZ line-up in history and stomped on all of them until NaDa finally managed a bo5 win in OGN Masters in 2007 on a ridiculously T > Z map pool. I think that if all you felt was anger when you saw Savior involved in the match fixing scandal then you aren't somehow who can appreciate what Savior did. And if you cannot appreciate what Savior did, you cannot appreciate how great his opponents were. If all you felt was anger then you never understood the history of SC. You're just a clueless brat. If you understood the history then you what felt... what you still feel... is an emptiness that cannot be filled. And whenever you go there and you try to think about it you feel like crying. Savior was always good at that... making people cry. But they used to be his opponents. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
That said, I think the greatest so far is flash. Most skilled we have ever seen, holds the majority of the important records, and he isn't done yet. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 26 2011 04:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Being disappointed and spiteful aren't mutually exclusive, Mortality. "...if all you felt was anger" is what I said. On March 26 2011 05:33 hacklebeast wrote: I think it's unlikely that the GOAT will come from the past 10 years as opposed to the next 50+. That said, I think the greatest so far is flash. Most skilled we have ever seen, holds the majority of the important records, and he isn't done yet. Flash could become the GOAT but he hasn't done so yet. And as for what time period the GOAT will come from... the GOAT is either a player that already has been or a player currently playing. Slowly but surely this game is becoming more and more strategically mined out. One of the most important elements of being GOAT is cross generational dominance and to be honest, it's not clear to me that there's enough undiscovered strategy left for there to be a TRUE next generation. I'd be surprised if BW is still playing on tv 10 years from now. I imagine it will continue having a cult following for decades, perhaps even centuries, to come but at a certain point the expense of running leagues and maintaining teams will outweigh the perceived benefits and corporate funding will run out. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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vishrut
United States567 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On March 26 2011 08:10 vishrut wrote: what the hell is this GOAT? ![]() + Show Spoiler + Just kidding. GOAT = Greatest (player) Of All Time Edit: Ack, damnit. TTT beat me to it. | ||
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 26 2011 12:59 GolemMadness wrote: Some would argue that Bobby Fischer is the best chess player ever. They would probably be wrong, though. Maybe some day it'll be Carlsen. Relevance or are you just trying to sound cool? | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On March 26 2011 15:53 Mortality wrote: Relevance or are you just trying to sound cool? It's just a comparison lol. Though Fischer isn't really the Nada equivalent... more like Botvinnik or someone. And Carlsen is the new top-rated, young player (though he hasn't won too many huge tournaments yet... so not really like Flash ![]() | ||
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 26 2011 15:59 ]343[ wrote: It's just a comparison lol. Though Fischer isn't really the Nada equivalent... more like Botvinnik or someone. And Carlsen is the new top-rated, young player (though he hasn't won too many huge tournaments yet... so not really like Flash ![]() I do not particularly think it is a good comparison, hence I question the relevance. | ||
Ideas
United States8058 Posts
On March 23 2011 07:25 Ideas wrote: flash -duh stats -on fucking fire jaedong - looking a lot hotter than before, but still a few bad loses keep him from #2 (losing to s2 and soulkey really hurts) movie - did really fucking well in march. best performing player on HITE right now horang2 - this guys is doing pretty good now. + qualified 2-0 for MSL. 6-1 in march fantasy - coming back to form but still not "OSL champion" level right now. if he 2-0s his MSL group, maybe switch him with horang2. baby - baby is finally on the rebound and living up to potential again. stork - pretty mediocre month for stork, but he's still stork. firebathero - one of the hottest ACE performances in month. 7-3 this month free- free is finally off his slump and 2-0d his MSL group, as well as solid performance in WL. i think if PR came out right now, it should look something like that. horang2/fantasy/baby are pretty interchangeable really though (same with bottom 3, although the bottom 3 definitely shouldn't move out of bottom) surprisingly bisu is only 3-4 this month :O ok so now that there aren't any more games to be played in the month (right?), I would change the list to: flash stats jaedong fantasy movie harang2 baby stork firebathero bisu cbnc: free, roro, zero | ||
okum
France5777 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On March 27 2011 05:28 okum wrote: Fantasy at least at #2. His performance against Hite was just something else. Hite played terrible (even Hydra in the game that he "won"). Fantasy wasn't anything special. All the games in that set were pretty awful. Hopefully Oz doesn't choke next week. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On March 27 2011 06:25 Mortality wrote: Apparently Fantasy is #1 on KeSPA right now. Just food for thought. ![]() Wait what really? | ||
Elroi
Sweden5587 Posts
On March 27 2011 06:25 Mortality wrote: Apparently Fantasy is #1 on KeSPA right now. Just food for thought. ![]() Rofl! That is awesome, I love Fanta ![]() On March 27 2011 05:28 okum wrote: Fantasy at least at #2. His performance against Hite was just something else. Fanta shouldn't be higher than Jaedong and Flash imo. Jaedong won just too easily against him. | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
On March 27 2011 06:48 Elroi wrote: Fanta shouldn't be higher than Jaedong and Flash imo. Jaedong won just too easily against him. ...or Stats. Fantasy is 10-4 SWL (and 2-0 vs a mediocre mst group). 3 kill against mbc, hite and oz (non-jd). Stats is 12-3 SWL, AK fantasy and his posse (including Bisu), AK woongjin, 3 kill khan (non-stork). fantasy for #4 next PR. | ||
Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On March 27 2011 06:25 Mortality wrote: Apparently Fantasy is #1 on KeSPA right now. Just food for thought. ![]() I'm not sure if that can be accurate. According to this list Flash was still 300 points ahead of Fantasy at the beginning of March. I'm no expert, but usually "regular" PL/WL games don't give so many points I think. Edit: Here's a little more official link to the latest KeSPA rankings. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 27 2011 07:11 Mooncat wrote: I'm not sure if that can be accurate. According to this list Flash was still 300 points ahead of Fantasy at the beginning of March. I'm no expert, but usually "regular" PL/WL games don't give so many points I think. Edit: Here's a little more official link to the latest KeSPA rankings. According to what Coach Oov told Fantasy, if he won 2-0 in MST and made a 3-kill against Hite he would overtake Flash as #1. Remember that you lose points as old results get older so Flash will probably drop in points while Fantasy will rise a bit. | ||
4vvhiplash7
South Africa392 Posts
On March 27 2011 07:43 Mortality wrote: According to what Coach Oov told Fantasy, if he won 2-0 in MST and made a 3-kill against Hite he would overtake Flash as #1. Remember that you lose points as old results get older so Flash will probably drop in points while Fantasy will rise a bit. According to the list that was mentioned Fantasy still has to overtake Jaedong as well... Flash has dropped in points but not that much. Fantasy is still quite a way behind... And Flash also won his MST group 2-0 remember? that also will push him up... but maybe April's rankings change everything... we'll see. I just thought its interesting that Bisu seems to have dropped a place every month... Fantasy is an amazing Terran, but Flash is what makes people say Terran is imba... Flash should still be no.1 | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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night terrors
China1284 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On March 26 2011 08:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Greatest of all time. You know, Kasparov for chess, Federer for Tennis, Muhammad Ali for boxing etc etc. In the chess community believe it or not there are a lot of conflicting beliefs for g.o.a.t. (I vote kasparov myself) | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On March 28 2011 12:22 AttackZerg wrote: In the chess community believe it or not there are a lot of conflicting beliefs for g.o.a.t. (I vote kasparov myself) One of the reasons is many of the possible candidates for G.O.A.T. had their primes set in different time periods. We have no way to know what will happen if Kasparov played in the prime of say Capablanca. It is impossible to determine if say Flash > Oov if flash played in his prime during that time. Its pretty much all speculation when someone says something like this. | ||
Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
It's KeSPA rating... and he won an OSL whereas Flash / JD didn't even make a final, he's BOUND to be higher. Please dont judge with KeSPA, do Elo, please. Please! Also Putting Fantasy above Stats because of KeSPA is plain dumb, he beat Fantasy and made 2 all kills, played like a fucking monster truck PvP and played one of the best noone bisu PvZ vs Zero. How can Fantasy be above because of KeSPA rating (the dumbest system ever where only 2 persons can be above 1k or so, its retarded how on can be at 2k, another at 3k and then maybe 1-2 at 1000-2000 and then rest is below 1000. | ||
popzags
Poland604 Posts
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4vvhiplash7
South Africa392 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:11 popzags wrote: 1. ![]() 2. ![]() 3. ![]() 4. ![]() 5. ![]() 6. ![]() 7. ![]() 8. ![]() 9. ![]() 10. ![]() CBNC: ![]() ![]() thats works for me | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 28 2011 16:25 Iplaythings wrote: It's KeSPA rating... and he won an OSL whereas Flash / JD didn't even make a final, he's BOUND to be higher. Please dont judge with KeSPA, do Elo, please. Please! Also Putting Fantasy above Stats because of KeSPA is plain dumb, he beat Fantasy and made 2 all kills, played like a fucking monster truck PvP and played one of the best noone bisu PvZ vs Zero. How can Fantasy be above because of KeSPA rating (the dumbest system ever where only 2 persons can be above 1k or so, its retarded how on can be at 2k, another at 3k and then maybe 1-2 at 1000-2000 and then rest is below 1000. LOLOLOL KeSPA ranking isn't dumb at all. Don't go throwing hissy fits simply because your boy may be losing his top rank on there. | ||
Hazard
Norway594 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5587 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
![]() But ya, Flash still definitely feels like the best player in the world, favourite against anyone. Jaedong had a pretty sick month, his hit-list includes Bisu, Stork and Fantasy and I think he's kinda getting back his scariness factor. I would probably favour him against anyone but Flash. Stats had the statistically best month of them (80% compared to 75, 75, 75, not that it matters much XD) and went on an awesome and impressive rampage, but he wasn't even on the PR last month. Dunno what to make of him at the moment. ![]() Dunno. They're standing out from the rest at the moment, that's for sure though. After them I have no idea. There are just so many players doing kinda well, with random players delivering all-kills all of a sudden (like CH and Movie)... I haven't been able to watch all games played either due to work, so I'm not sure at all who deserves the spots 5-10. ![]() | ||
Tribulation
Norway86 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I've been thinking about this issue more than I ought to and here's my first take on a list (and why): 1. Flash (9-3) Yes, Flash looked a bit vulnerable this month, dropping 3 games in SWL to Calm, Tyson and Baby. And I don't think he's had the best month of anyone either. But ask yourself this: how much of that is because Flash has become weaker and how much of that is because KT simply hasn't needed him as much? Cruising through his MST group with an easy 2-0, Flash is still the safest bet to win a Starleague and despite his horrible flop last December, his overall stats since the start of last season stand testament to that fact. 46-11. Flash is still winning 80% of his games. 2. Jaedong (9-3) I struggled a bit with who to put at #2. As far as I'm concerned there are 3 candidates. Ultimately I settled on Jaedong. It's not because Jaedong beat Fantasy in head-to-head (actually, until the end that game was very intense) and it's not because JD became the first Zerg to AK (I don't value JD's AK over either of Stats's). Last month we saw beautiful Starcraft from Jaedong and ever since that AK against Samsung he has had that aura about him again. I'm counting on another deep SL run from the dong. 3. Stats (12-3) Statistically nobody has had a better month than Stats, which is why Stats is my second #2. A couple players might have a higher win percentage but over fewer games. And it's not just the percentage -- look who he beat. And watch the games. Stats played like an S-class player and it should not come as a surprise that it was Stats who broke the ranks held by TBLS + Fanta + Hydra who all were over 2200 -- the only players over 2200 -- for months, plural, and is only 2 ELO points behind Stork. I asked earlier if Flash's lack of flair last month was really his fault and I think Stats is the answer. With Stats playing, Flash wasn't even needed. A burst of power at the end of the season catapulted this boy up to #3 in WL results (21-9, +12) behind only Flash (25-5, +20) and Bisu (28-10, +18) and #3 on my PR as well. EDIT: Stats is the only player whose rank could change based on tonight's results. 4. Fantasy (12-4) No question about it, Fantasy was a monster last month, proving himself worthy of last season's OSL gold. While Bisu was dropping the ball, Fantasy was picking up the slack. And if what Coach Oov said was correct, Fantasy is going to be rewarded for this effort with the coveted KeSPA #1 rank. I've seen Flash fans and Fantasy haters talking smack because of this and it's totally undeserved. What the KeSPA #1 rank means is that Fantasy has accomplished more recently than Flash has, which is true (remember that Bigfile MSL + KA2 OSL were more than 7 months ago now). And I think that there are a couple of things Fantasy actually does better than Flash. His vulture play, for instance, which was really spectacular in his recent game against the Dong. But there's a reason why Fantasy is down here and Flash is up there: there's still just a touch of scrappiness to Fantasy's game play that Flash simply doesn't have. Can Fantasy defend his new title or will Flash reclaim the throne? 5. Baby (10-4) It should be said right now that there's a pretty big gap between 4 and 5. Big, but not huge. Not long after Stats, Baby also slid into the 2200 club and has cemented his place with wins over Sea, Kal, Stork and Flash and all around solid play. And despite taking a loss, his game against Zero was something to behold. I feel that Baby has been something of a dark horse of late, falling 1-2 last season in OSL to Kal and 1-2 to the group that killed Flash in MSL and attaining results that were... good but not great in PL. But being a dark horse has its advantages. If Baby can continue fighting top players on even ground then I see no reason why he can't -- finally -- make it somewhere in individual league. 6. Firebathero (7-3) This placement surprises me, but it must be understood that as big as the gap is between 4 and 5, it pales next to the gap between 5 and 6. FBH had a big month, scoring big wins against big names and playing shockingly impressive SC, but one would be hard placed to call him a favorite to make big results next season considering that his new found power comes after and 11 game loss streak, the longest in his career. FBH has been instrumental in restoring dignity to Ace and he has momentum right now, but can he produce results? Does he have the skill to go somewhere in SL? Hard to say, but he did qualify for the MST so he will have that chance. 7. Horang2 (6-1) Another placement that is something of a surprise. I've always regarded Horang2 as a sniper, plain and simple, but this past month he has shown more depth than I gave him credit for, tearing his way through almost everybody he's faced, 10-1 if you count the offline MST where he tackled hyvaa, 3-killing Grape, Great and Stork on Khan and dismantling his MST group 2-0. Like with FBH I fear this momentum may be short lived, but there's not question that Horang2 is hot right now. And oh yeah, his one loss? FBH. 8. Stork (5-6) If PR were a results rank then Stork wouldn't even be here right now. And surely, at first glance he looks like he's in a big slump, only once last month being able to string 2 wins together despite being the star for his team. But look who the players are who toppled him: JD, Horang2, Flash, Zero, Baby, Shuttle, which is practically a who's who list of Protoss killers. By skill, Stork fans don't really have that much to worry about and I would suggest Stork as a strong candidate for a good season. The issue here is momentum, which Stork hasn't been able to find. It might not seem fair to blame Stork for Samsung Khan's misery, but without him scoring multikills, Khan finished there season with an LL on the score table for three weeks in a row. In WL, where a single player can carry a team, this isn't something we want to see. 9. Bisu (5-4) Bisu... what happened? One might argue that Bisu should be higher, and indeed it's hard to see anything in particular that's wrong with Bisu's play, except perhaps that Bisu's HT play seems to be lagging behind the competition. He's still winning more than he's losing, pulling through his MST group... but his last win in SWL was on March 8. Where Free embarrassingly dismantled him with two unscouted, undefended hidden expos (in 2005 an acceptable loss, in 2011?). 10. Zero (7-5) Like Stork, Zero has been struggling a little to get momentum, although unlike Stork he's a bit of a dark horse. IMO Zero is one of the most underrated players in Starcraft. By ELO, Zero remains the #2 ranked ZvT and #2 ranked ZvP and if you've watched his games it shows. His win over Baby, his win over Flash the month before, his 5-0 record over Stork in 2011... If only Zero could square around his ZvZ he'd pose a serious threat for a SL gold. CBNC Free - welcome back. We didn't see you at all in February. Last month we saw some spectacular play from you and so horrendous play. Get some more consistency if you want to move up. Sea - similar to Stork, you've been forced to try to carry a team without support and similarly you've displayed great strength but you keep getting blocked from multikills by strong players. Without momentum I can't really put you on the list. WL is a time for heroes and despite the name of your team you haven't succeeded in being on. Roro - is one of those players who tends to get thought of as an S-class indicator. His play always seems to solid and well-rounded, but it's hard to call him spectacular. He consistently turns out solid results, but then he has lopsided records like 0-7 against Bisu, 0-5 against Flash, 1-8 against Jaedong. He really needs to prove himself against one of these three players before he will truly cement himself alone. | ||
mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 29 2011 09:01 Mortality wrote: 9. Bisu (5-4) Bisu... what happened? One might argue that Bisu should be higher, and indeed it's hard to see anything in particular that's wrong with Bisu's play, except perhaps that Bisu's HT play seems to be lagging behind the competition. He's still winning more than he's losing, pulling through his MST group... but his last win in SWL was on March 8. Where Free embarrassingly dismantled him with two unscouted, undefended hidden expos (in 2005 an acceptable loss, in 2011?). While I am probably always kind of biased when I talk about Bisu I still think I am rather objective for a fanboy. Anyhow I would probably put him a bit higher and just give him some benefit of the doubt. While his record this month is kinda shaky, the PR have always been more than just results and stats and there have not been much of a decline in his play outside of his PvP (and even there I think it has more to do with the competition getting better at the matchup + some bad luck\getting predictable in BO). Looking at his losses they come from an in form Jaedong, where he lost simply due to trying to cut some corners against the best ZvP player on the planet and skip the second cannon (he also was insanely close to scouting the hydras in the center with his DT). One straight up build order loss vs Leta with a 1gate expo build vs 2fac, tho this can also be attributed to Bisu simply being predictable in PvT (hes used this same 1gate->lot->range goon->expo in lots of his PvT games lately). He got another loss against an in form player in Stats where he once again was at a build order disadvantage and Stats never gave up his advantage playing a rock solid game beating him pretty soundly. His game vs Free was pretty bad tho. Beside a rather scrappy game against Perfectman he looked rock solid in all his wins, and really nothing in his wins gives any indication of worse play than hes been putting up earlier in Winners league. The only 2 games you can really look at and say "well Bisu is playing bad" is his games against Free and Perfectman. If you look at him overall hes got one matchup that is light years ahead of everyone else (PvZ), and one matchup where hes one of the best. While it might not always look pretty you can`t argue with the results his putting up in PvT (17-3 in his last 20 PvTs with losses against Flash, Hiya and Leta) and currently tied in #1 PvT ELO with Stork. His PvP have been kinda shaky lately, but beside his 2 last losses against Free and Stats Bisu have been beating everyone not named Kal or Stork for a looong time in PvP, in fact ever since he lost to Stats in the PL finals in August. Hes still #2 in PvP ELO despite losing 4 of his last 5 PvPs. Do we really think that its gonna be harder to play against FBH or Horang2 than its gonna be against Bisu? If we do value short term result heavily he should at least be placed above Stork, who is performing similarly "bad". | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
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popzags
Poland604 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 29 2011 13:43 Oystein wrote: While I am probably always kind of biased when I talk about Bisu I still think I am rather objective for a fanboy. Anyhow I would probably put him a bit higher and just give him some benefit of the doubt. While his record this month is kinda shaky, the PR have always been more than just results and stats and there have not been much of a decline in his play outside of his PvP (and even there I think it has more to do with the competition getting better at the matchup + some bad luck\getting predictable in BO). Looking at his losses they come from an in form Jaedong, where he lost simply due to trying to cut some corners against the best ZvP player on the planet and skip the second cannon (he also was insanely close to scouting the hydras in the center with his DT). One straight up build order loss vs Leta with a 1gate expo build vs 2fac, tho this can also be attributed to Bisu simply being predictable in PvT (hes used this same 1gate->lot->range goon->expo in lots of his PvT games lately). He got another loss against an in form player in Stats where he once again was at a build order disadvantage and Stats never gave up his advantage playing a rock solid game beating him pretty soundly. His game vs Free was pretty bad tho. Beside a rather scrappy game against Perfectman he looked rock solid in all his wins, and really nothing in his wins gives any indication of worse play than hes been putting up earlier in Winners league. The only 2 games you can really look at and say "well Bisu is playing bad" is his games against Free and Perfectman. If you look at him overall hes got one matchup that is light years ahead of everyone else (PvZ), and one matchup where hes one of the best. While it might not always look pretty you can`t argue with the results his putting up in PvT (17-3 in his last 20 PvTs with losses against Flash, Hiya and Leta) and currently tied in #1 PvT ELO with Stork. His PvP have been kinda shaky lately, but beside his 2 last losses against Free and Stats Bisu have been beating everyone not named Kal or Stork for a looong time in PvP, in fact ever since he lost to Stats in the PL finals in August. Hes still #2 in PvP ELO despite losing 4 of his last 5 PvPs. Do we really think that its gonna be harder to play against FBH or Horang2 than its gonna be against Bisu? If we do value short term result heavily he should at least be placed above Stork, who is performing similarly "bad". One key point here is that skill != hotness. I think we can safely be 99+% confident that Bisu is more skilled than Horang2 and FBH, which is why I commented that I feel I they may be too high on my ranking. Nevertheless, both of them were undeniably hot last month, attracting a lot of attention for their strong results against strong players. | ||
VGhost
United States3608 Posts
I'm trying to decide whether ACE's great showing in the MST is due to increasing skill on ACE, declining overall skill, or both. | ||
renzy
Canada781 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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night terrors
China1284 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:40 Mortality wrote: One key point here is that skill != hotness. I think we can safely be 99+% confident that Bisu is more skilled than Horang2 and FBH, which is why I commented that I feel I they may be too high on my ranking. Nevertheless, both of them were undeniably hot last month, attracting a lot of attention for their strong results against strong players. By that logic at least some people should be above Flash. MST spoiler + Show Spoiler + i'd say stats but since he got 2-0'd last night then not so much now | ||
Ideas
United States8058 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 30 2011 01:36 night terrors wrote: By that logic at least some people should be above Flash. No, not really. The way I see hotness is a sort of composite of our perception of skill, momentum and results. Flash isn't really lacking in any of these areas. He went 9-3 last month and has been consistently dismantling the toughest competition in all match-ups pretty much all season. The only black mark on his record was a poor showing in SL, but that was way back in December. Flash is still the player everyone fears the most. He's still the player that comes to mind when we think of perfection. My concern about Bisu is that his results have been dipping and his momentum has been sputtering. I cannot imagine a ranking with Bisu ahead of any of the people I put in my last top 5, even after Stats dropping out of MST (and for the record, all of my last top 5 are players I perceive as being highly enough skilled to rival TBLS). As for Horang2 and FBH the main argument against putting them ahead of Bisu is history. But on the other hand, they brought it and it's hard to deny them that. Horang2 is a dark horse pick for continuing the tendency of Hite Entus players to come out of nowhere and deliver strong results in SL (Movie's finals, Effort's gold following the worst slump of his career, Hydra's golden season, Snow pushing JD to the very brink) and FBH deserves a lot of credit for restoring credibility and positive atmosphere to Ace, something that cannot be overlooked. | ||
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 30 2011 00:40 Mortality wrote: One key point here is that skill != hotness. I think we can safely be 99+% confident that Bisu is more skilled than Horang2 and FBH, which is why I commented that I feel I they may be too high on my ranking. Nevertheless, both of them were undeniably hot last month, attracting a lot of attention for their strong results against strong players. That is fine, but if you go by that requirement Bisu should most def be higher than Stork on your lists considering Stork had a worse February AND a worse March now, and that was kinda the point I was trying to make in the end of my post. If you go by hotness at least be consistent about it and not use it as an argument when it pleases you :p | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Also, you say Flash is up there because of how he is perceived to be that good. Well, Bisu is the same in all but his PvP(unless you like pretending the past is the present). At this point, Fantasy should go way up, and Jaedong really belongs somewhere in the middle. If you watch him, you can still see he's not quite there. His "wins against top players" fail to take into account that a few of them were with aggression, not management. | ||
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 30 2011 10:08 Mortality wrote: It's not an argument that I use only when it pleases me. My personal feeling is that Bisu and Stork are pretty comparable in hotness. If you want to flip that order I don't really care. 1 place doesn't really change much. Although personally I don't feel that Stork played worse than Bisu last month. I tried to make a joke of it with the smiley since I don`t really think you use it as it pleases you, I think however you where inconsistent in your reasoning for the placements. I don`t really mind Stork above Bisu if just strength of play was your criteria of your placements as I think Stork have played fairly well in most of the games iv seen of him this last month. However since you used hotness as the argument for FBH\Horang being above I don`t think you can say that you think Stork have had a better month result wise than Bisu. Anyway as you said its really a small detail if one of them move up\down a spot. While Horang2 is getting results, his play is still often dubious if you ask me. Look at the games hes won in March vs an unimpressive list of opponents beside Stork, against Grape he gets a solid build order advantage with his 3gate obs vs 4gate with probecut. Still in the first major engagement when he has 2 reavers against 1 reaver he almost manages to lose and takes free hits to his reavers showing off generally horrible reaver micro. However the build order advantage is way to big for Grape to ever make a comeback. His game against Great he played well enough I guess, tho his win had more too do with Great just dying to one DT he lets just walk into his main wrecking havoc for the longest of time. His game against Stork was just absolutely horrible, he fails to do any harass himself the entire game and manages to even lose his speedshuttle and the 2 reavers he dropped out of it shortly thereafter, while taking heavy probe losses the entire game himself. The only redeeming things he does the entire game is twice catching Stork out of position and actually winning the game, tho I think both those battles was poorly fought by Stork as much as being well fought by Horang. While he deserves some props for picking those battles well and catching Stork out of position he still had put himself in a position with his lackluster early game play where he NEEDED to get a good positioning in a battle. Lucky for Horang he did manage to catch Stork out of position, but that is not something you should need too rely on to win your games. Against Shine he is basically once again handed the win from his opponent when shine decides to just show his hydras half a map away in his hydrabust when he sees the probe coming toward his main for the longest time, still refuses to even try and hide his hydras and thus letting Horang cannon up his natural. A blind donkey could have won that game afterward and Horang easily wins as there was not much room for him to mess up. In his game against Paralyze he once again gets an early BO advantage and easily deflects Paralyzes early goon attack (he could have been in a tough spot if Paralyze had actually waited for his first reaver before attacking as it ended up just trading goons with him now), and while he did position himself well and microed pretty good in the deciding first reaver battle his opponent was once again just playing horribly failing first too attack with his reaver and having to bring it into the battle late where his goons are already fighting a uphill battle. These 2 games he actually played OK, but got both the games handed too him by horrible play from his opponents. Now the game against Iris was just terrible to watch and he would have gotten smashed by any decent opponent. Watching him let Iris just drive up close to his army and siege up having him consequently lose half his army before he decide to retreat was just horrible to watch. Lucky for Horang tho Bloody Ridge is a really good Carrier map and with the help of a terrible Iris he managed to win a game that was virtually lost. All Iris needed to do was pick of all the right side expos and leave Horang with 1 mining base and then just kill of all the interceptors later on. Instead Iris decided to move into his main losing a good chunk of his Gols leaving him later with not enough gols to actually kill the interceptors forcing him to try to targetfire the Carriers and that is pretty hard on a map like Bloody ridge. His sole loss against FBH there is not much to say about since it was a pure BO loss. So like I said, sure his 6-1 record looks pretty on paper. However if you actually look at the games hes been playing he has not done anything special and most of his wins can be attributed to BO advantages and/or bad play by opponents. Until he actually start showing some good games outside of PvP I have a hard time regarding him as one of the hotter players around. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
To Oystein: you raise good points and it's possible that my view of Bisu is marginally tainted by the fact that I perceive March as showing us a downward trend from Bisu, which is not something I really feel from Stork. If you compare the two of them, Bisu has always been the more streaky player able to achieve much higher peak win percentages but having less regularity. You may be right about Horang2 as well, although I'm also inclined to feel that you are dismissing his results a tiny bit easily as well. After all, how many times have we seen other Protoss players fall to the exact same hydra break from Shine? Well, to be honest, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping Horang2 to a lower rank and your arguments did help shape that opinion since I don't see any fault with your analysis (other than a tendency to use words that make it sound like he's a D-rank newb). Actually, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping him onto CBNC so that both Zero and Roro can be fit onto the rank. One of my concerns about my past ranking -- one of the things that made me unhappy with it -- was that I really thought both of them should be ranked. Regarding placement of FBH over Bisu... this I actually feel more hesitance to change unless FBH drops from MST. It's not every day a player single-handedly revives the atmosphere of a team and I feel that FBH did this for Ace with powerful play. EDIT: Just to see how I feel about it, I'm going to post my ranking again, with some modification: 1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Fantasy 4. Baby 5. Stats (I'm hesitant to drop him lower since he was playing at such an incredibly high level earlier this month -- all SWL season, really) 6. FBH 7. Bisu (or Stork?) 8. Stork 9. Zero 10. Roro | ||
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On March 30 2011 14:22 Mortality wrote:To Oystein: you raise good points and it's possible that my view of Bisu is marginally tainted by the fact that I perceive March as showing us a downward trend from Bisu, which is not something I really feel from Stork. If you compare the two of them, Bisu has always been the more streaky player able to achieve much higher peak win percentages but having less regularity. You may be right about Horang2 as well, although I'm also inclined to feel that you are dismissing his results a tiny bit easily as well. After all, how many times have we seen other Protoss players fall to the exact same hydra break from Shine? Well, to be honest, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping Horang2 to a lower rank and your arguments did help shape that opinion since I don't see any fault with your analysis (other than a tendency to use words that make it sound like he's a D-rank newb). Actually, I'm not uncomfortable with dropping him onto CBNC so that both Zero and Roro can be fit onto the rank. One of my concerns about my past ranking -- one of the things that made me unhappy with it -- was that I really thought both of them should be ranked. Regarding placement of FBH over Bisu... this I actually feel more hesitance to change unless FBH drops from MST. It's not every day a player single-handedly revives the atmosphere of a team and I feel that FBH did this for Ace with powerful play. Like I said if we judge people from their play and not their results I can see Stork being placed above Bisu simply because they have been performing kinda similar the last few months but Stork have been winning their encounters against each other and the games I have seen of Stork he has played in general really well (tho I don`t watch nearly as much BW these days as I used to, tho I try to catch all the JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork games). About the Shine game, I have never beside, Kal vs Shine @ neo medusa seen a game where a P player scouts a hydra all in early lose (in that Kal vs Shine game, Kal scouts 2hatch hydra and just does not add cannons or do anything about it and just died to it). Now I am not talking about the fake all in where you just make 5-7 hydras with just range and pick of the gate\forge, but the kind that Shine actually did where he made like 10-12 and thus ruined his economy. In this game Shines lings are chasing horangs probe from his 3rd toward his natural, and despite knowing this Shine still does not even try to hide his hydras that are just walking toward the probe. Now probably he would have ended up getting scouted anyway, but shine did nothing to prevent it and by the time he stopped producing hydras he was already in a horrible shape. Neither did it help that he sacked 6-7 hydras to kill 2 cannons for no good reason. Now I probably used kind of a harsh language to describe a lot of the things that happened in Horangs games as I think hes an overrated bad one trick pony and that affected me, but honestly the kind of mistakes his opponents/himself was making in most of those games was pretty awful to watch. Too this day I have yet seen a game of horang outside of PvP where I have thought "hes playing really well" and I usually can find at least SOME games of most players like that, now again I don`t watch all of his games but I actually went back and watched all his games from this month just because you had him at your list and what I saw did as usual not impress me. I mean iv seen like cute abusive builds from him, like 12nex into no range +1wep 2gate carrier, but never have I seen anything that suggest hes a good player who can take on good players in BOx outside of PvP. About FBH I have only watched like 3-4 of his games the last month so I can`t really discuss him more in depth so he could deserve the spot for all I know, I just threw him in there with Horang as someone who have been performing "hot" lately that I have problems seeing as being on anything else than a fluke good streak, especially considering the fact he had not won a game in 2011 before March and was on an 11 game loss streak. He did play really well against Free, even tho Free helped him look good with his non existent defense against FBHs vulture harass all game long, but here unlike the mistakes Horangs opponents where doing these mistakes can actually be attributed to FBH "forcing" his opponent too make them with his relentless vult harass. | ||
Elroi
Sweden5587 Posts
On March 30 2011 10:54 Lightwip wrote: I would have to agree that your arguments for Stork and Bisu are quite questionable. For Stork you say, "He lost to good players, but that's OK" without really mentioning much that he's done(he hasn't done much at all, he's been quite unreliable). For Bisu, you talk about all the flaws he's had when most of his losses have been losses in short games against also good players, while his wins have been pretty impressive. I mean, Bisu still stands out in PvZ while Stork doesn't really show his invincible PvT anymore. Also, you say Flash is up there because of how he is perceived to be that good. Well, Bisu is the same in all but his PvP(unless you like pretending the past is the present). At this point, Fantasy should go way up, and Jaedong really belongs somewhere in the middle. If you watch him, you can still see he's not quite there. His "wins against top players" fail to take into account that a few of them were with aggression, not management. I hate to break it to you, but Bisu is no way near Flash in any way right now. Did Jaedong really win with agression? That must be a sign that he is declining then because he was never known to be an agressive player. | ||
kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On March 30 2011 18:31 Elroi wrote: I hate to break it to you, but Bisu is no way near Flash in any way right now. Did Jaedong really win with agression? That must be a sign that he is declining then because he was never known to be an agressive player. I suppose his lurker runby against Flash counts as being aggressive, except he didn't win that one. Understandable when he's playing Flash on Benzene which is pretty anti-Hive, where Jaedong shines the most. He "cheesed" Bisu with a handful of lurkers and did a 3 hatch hydra "all-in" against Stork which accidentally worked so well Stork just lost despite Jaedong expanding at the same time. Both Bisu and Stork made one cannon and got punished for it. Is Jaedong supposed to just let them get away with that and most likely die 10-15 minutes later? | ||
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On March 30 2011 18:31 Elroi wrote: I hate to break it to you, but Bisu is no way near Flash in any way right now. Whether or not that is true, it's not the point. And no, Jaedong shouldn't let them get away with skimping. But it doesn't show that he's on top of his game either. | ||
Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
Stats #2 incoming. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
2. Jaedong 3. Fantasy 4. Stats 5. Baby 6. Horang2 7. Stork 8. FBH 9. Bisu 10. Roro could make a case for bumping roro off if he epic fails tomorrow. find it harsh on hydra to go from #2 to off, but meh, when your only wins are against rock and mong... has he even had many chances to play at all? edit - if there's fbh fail tomorrow as well, easily possible given he's playing JAEHOON, could bump him down as well | ||
e_i_pi_1_0
933 Posts
On March 31 2011 02:29 sixfour wrote: find it harsh on hydra to go from #2 to off, but meh, when your only wins are against rock and mong... has he even had many chances to play at all? edit - if there's fbh fail tomorrow as well, easily possible given he's playing JAEHOON, could bump him down as well Hydra only had only 5 games this month, and went 2-3. Losses vs Kal, fantasy, and Iris, wins against Rock and Mong. So not too good. That may be due to his team stepping up as well, but 2-3 is kinda bad, given who the 2 victories are against. | ||
dobbersp
United States94 Posts
d:- D | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On March 31 2011 15:11 dobbersp wrote: Does anyone else think it's LOL that Fantasy's high spot on the PR is 2? d:- D Haha I was just thinking about that earlier good sir. In other news the Power Rank will be coming out sometime in the next 47 hours and 47 minutes, after the MST groups have finished and I have had time to think about things. | ||
Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:16 Holgerius wrote: No way Stats gets #2 after his failure in MSL. ![]() Sadly I have to agree, but his game in the losers match was more heros win than stats' loss. And he will still be in top 5 if justice is served, cant find others than fantasy-flash-jd who performed better. | ||
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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VGhost
United States3608 Posts
On March 31 2011 22:23 Holgerius wrote: You should try to fit FBH in as high as possible. :D Can't even remember last time ACE had a player on the PR (have they ever had one? O_o)... Found one! February 2009: Anytime. Had a pretty good WL maybe? | ||
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