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On May 31 2010 02:00 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 01:49 johanes wrote:On May 31 2010 01:12 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 01:10 o[twist] wrote:
counterargument: everyone hated JWD's power ranks, they were the worst in the history of the PR and showcased extreme bias justified by whatever arguments available Negative, SKT1 fans loved JWD power ranks  God, remember the time when flash was in a tournament finals WITHOUT a single loss and JWD didn't even put him on PR? So much rage back then. Nope, actually not. Flash didn't deserve to be in the PR in that month since he was out early in the MSL, OSL and PL. Everyone on that rank deserved it more than Flash. And most of the Flash fanboys even agreed with it since at that time Flash didnt show any signs of recovery. Of course then Flash proved us wrong with starting his domination. But Flash out of that PR was justified.
Those who agreed weren't flash fanboys, I'll never accept that. But it's just my opinion and luckily we don't have to discuss Flash's positon in current PRs.
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On May 31 2010 02:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The only problem with that rank was the hypocrisy of stuff like Bisu still at #3 and the SKT fandom etc etc. Also the "Flash's TvZ is bad" argument when he was 6-2 TvZ. We didn't argue with it because we were tired of arguing and no one believed us that he was still good. Flash kind of made up for it.
Yeah, but losing a bo3 to Kwanro, BBSing Effort and barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) isn't a testament of good TvZ? :p
I mean its like saying Effort 3-2ed Flash in the OSL finals, his ZvT must be S+class.
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On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote:
Effort #1
Flash #2
Jaedong #3
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
What is Power? That's what we're ranking.
Now, of course some of this is subjective, but I like to think that the best justification for Power Rank placement ever given was Mani's last February. While perhaps you can say that "Who would Vader pick to own your ass?" is an over-dramatic criterion, this is really the same question as "Who is the overwhelming favorite?"
Here's a newsflash for you: Flash is the favorite right now against anybody, with any amount of prep time, in a PL match, in an ace match, in a Bo3, in a Bo5, in a Best-of-infinity. Yes, even though he lost to EffOrt and Snow.
Flash was a huge favorite in the OSL - and only lost 3-2, from a 2-0 lead, which is as close as you can get to winning and not win. He demolished Jaedong in three straight games and Jaedong has been his closest (sometimes only) competition for the last six months. His Proleague record is impeccable apart from the match against CJ, and even that's no shame.
And if you played Flash vs. EffOrt Bo5 100 times, Flash would be favored 100 times right now, and Flash would probably win at least 75 times.
There's no question that EffOrt's accomplishment is phenomenal and could reasonably put him ahead of Jaedong for the time being. But even though he beat Flash, Flash is still the better player by almost any metric you can name.
But you're arguing that EffOrt's change-in-position makes him #1. If anything, most PR writers (and even more of the readers), expect the PR to reduce the impact of sudden changes unless they're truly devestating. You know what might have earned EffOrt #1? A 3-0 win. Even 3-1 could make an argument. But this is not Bisu vs sAviOr (and Bisu didn't even earn #1 for that piece of seismic activity). This was a close finals that EffOrt arguably wouldn't have had a shot at if Flash had played his standard safe game instead of cheesing. Flash got out-thought, not out-played (on the whole, the no-medic thing was idiotic), and still only lost by a single game.
While I'm inclined to call troll, I think you're really just having a totally different expectation from the PR than many of the rest of us.
On May 31 2010 02:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The only problem with that rank was the hypocrisy of stuff like Bisu still at #3 and the SKT fandom etc etc. Also the "Flash's TvZ is bad" argument when he was 6-2 TvZ. We didn't argue with it because we were tired of arguing and no one believed us that he was still good. Flash kind of made up for it.
The real problem for me was the next month when Bisu got knocked out of the MSL like a dork (okay, Iris did play some sweet Starcraft) and only slipped a single spot. That was what really screamed inconsistency. But yeah.
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On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote:
barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up)
How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close.
It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition.
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On May 31 2010 02:27 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote:
barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close. It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition.
The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha
Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too. 
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Man, I'm so happy right now (I know I'm little late to the party, but I wasn't able to watch the final live). I was preparing lots of totaly obnoxious stuff if Flash wins, to rub it in the face of all the haters and doubters, but that would be really unfair to JD and his reasonable fans. The haters got shut up by Flash himself anyway.
So I will keep it to minimum and just say this: Look at the #1 PR, look at the guy on the top of the Starcraft word and remember his name and face. Because no matter how hard you hate him, he ain't going anywhere soon!
While I would prefer 5 epic games and 3:2 victory, 3:0 will do as well. It tastes even sweeter now, after the OSL loss.
I quite curious for the rest of the rank...don't know how I would personaly sorted out JD vs Effort and Baby vs Kal...
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On May 31 2010 02:29 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:27 okum wrote:On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote:
barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close. It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition. The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too.
Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM).
Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part.
It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning".
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it's true flash slaughtered july and took down effort convincingly but if i remember correctly the first "holy fuckmycock flash is back" game was the one against hero
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On May 31 2010 02:37 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:29 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 02:27 okum wrote:On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote:
barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close. It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition. The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too. Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM). Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part. It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning".
Oh yeah I must be living in some weirdo reality. Me and tons of others. I just looked at the LR thread and I chose one comment which should leave no doubt.
On July 20 2009 21:58 Day[9] wrote:
in my humble but entirely correct opinion
all games were heavily in favor of july fjsldghskalfjdsagldsa
how on earth did he lose ANY of those, let alone all three -_-
So, okum. Are you trying to say you know more about sc than day9?
If not, I want an apology for calling me insane.
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On May 31 2010 02:59 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:37 okum wrote:On May 31 2010 02:29 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 02:27 okum wrote:On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote:
barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close. It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition. The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too. Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM). Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part. It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning". Oh yeah I must be living in some weirdo reality. Me and tons of others. I just looked at the LR thread and I chose one comment which should leave no doubt. Show nested quote +On July 20 2009 21:58 Day[9] wrote:
in my humble but entirely correct opinion
all games were heavily in favor of july fjsldghskalfjdsagldsa
how on earth did he lose ANY of those, let alone all three -_- So, okum. Are you trying to say you know more about sc than day9? If not, I want an apology for calling me insane.
July played like an idiot that series in the late game.
His mid game was brilliant, best power macro heavy hatch late hive zerg I've seen, he would've crushed any terran back then with his midgame, he simply out macrod and out supplied Flash, but dear god his late game was friggin horrible and was totally outclassed by Flash. I mean he had like 2 groups of units running around and doing nothing in Medusa.
The games were close and awesome, especially the game on HBr, but you could easily see that Flash was the superior player in the late game, that series imo is where Flash's TvZ suddenly awakened and turned on god mode, his management was simply unreal, his tank line and marine micro on medusa was fantastic, and that hold on the mind only on HBr was pretty insane with those vessels to snipe the defilers.
Flash's TvZ was pretty bad before that series,but during that series he suddenly turned on and awakened god mode. He raped Effort with just as much ease in WCG too. I would use that game as a transition point for Flash's strong TvZ rather than an example of his weak TvZ, you shouldve used his games vs Yarnc/Jaedong/Kwanro instead.
But overall I agree with you, that series was a lot closer than people gave it credit to, and I enjoyed it a lot, very heavy on macro with sick defence from Flash, July kept throwing units which was the bad part, but the games were really sick and I would highly recommend them.
I think the discussion is pointless though.
The PR is pretty much determined
1) Flash
2/3) Effort/Jaedong- whether you give credit to Effort's early game is going to be the main factor, it's a toss up, this month effort played much better than jaedong for sure though considering the finals performance( even though the Flash that played against Jaedong seemed stronger and more complete than the one that faced effort, but that's a different story)
4-10) Who cares, arbitary people doing decently in PL.
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On May 31 2010 01:07 JonathanJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is? You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan. But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
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On May 31 2010 02:59 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:37 okum wrote:On May 31 2010 02:29 SuperArc wrote:On May 31 2010 02:27 okum wrote:On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote:
barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close. It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition. The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too. Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM). Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part. It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning". Oh yeah I must be living in some weirdo reality. Me and tons of others. I just looked at the LR thread and I chose one comment which should leave no doubt. Show nested quote +On July 20 2009 21:58 Day[9] wrote:
in my humble but entirely correct opinion
all games were heavily in favor of july fjsldghskalfjdsagldsa
how on earth did he lose ANY of those, let alone all three -_- So, okum. Are you trying to say you know more about sc than day9? If not, I want an apology for calling me insane.
July got (varying degrees of) early-game advantages, and then Flash demolished him with vastly superior play. The series was exciting, but it was all too visible throughout how dominant Flash was. Even if Flash was in danger of losing one or two games (this is debatable -- you always have to factor in Flash's extreme ability to recover from unfavorable positions), July was nowhere near winning that series.
Edit: samachking said it better than me.
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On May 31 2010 03:18 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 01:07 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is? You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan. But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say? Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak. Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months. Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results. I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
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On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 03:18 Mortality wrote:On May 31 2010 01:07 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is? You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan. But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say? Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak. Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months. Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results. I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't. Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
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On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Find me one (1) specific example of a similar circumstance garnering #1. I already pointed out Bisu not getting #1 when he 3-0'd sAviOr. You have to do that first, and I don't think you can.
But then you'd at least have an argument from precedent, even if your actual argument doesn't hold water (hint: no one is agreeing with you).
For bonus points/plausibility points, then show me where/how this particular PR writer (Plexa) has used or is likely to use this line of reasoning, or how EffOrt #1 is consistent with Plexa's standards for PR.
That's your challenge. When you can do one or both of those things, I'll be prepared to continue the argument.
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On May 31 2010 03:56 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 03:18 Mortality wrote:On May 31 2010 01:07 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is? You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan. But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say? Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak. Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months. Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results. I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't. Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1. Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
this must be plexa or JWD trolling, nobody could argue for effort > flash without hidden devious (yet obvious) ploys
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Jonathan might also want to read Plexa's blog on the OSL finals and Effort (I don't particularly agree with what he writes). Despite his bias, I don't expect Plexa to be unfair and Effort will most likely be ranked 2/3. Which is where he should go.
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blizzard
gom
flash
jaedong
effort
kal
free
calm
baby
snow
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On May 31 2010 04:03 johanes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 03:56 J1.au wrote:On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 03:18 Mortality wrote:On May 31 2010 01:07 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is? You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan. But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say? Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak. Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months. Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results. I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't. Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1. Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question. this must be plexa or JWD trolling, nobody could argue for effort > flash without hidden devious (yet obvious) ploys
if it is a mod trolling us, it'd be Hot Bid.
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On May 31 2010 04:01 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1. Find me one (1) specific example of a similar circumstance garnering #1. I already pointed out Bisu not getting #1 when he 3-0'd sAviOr. You have to do that first, and I don't think you can. But then you'd at least have an argument from precedent, even if your actual argument doesn't hold water (hint: no one is agreeing with you). For bonus points/plausibility points, then show me where/how this particular PR writer (Plexa) has used or is likely to use this line of reasoning, or how EffOrt #1 is consistent with Plexa's standards for PR. That's your challenge. When you can do one or both of those things, I'll be prepared to continue the argument.
Not sure why you wouldnt bother to read the thread before posting, or is that my challenge too?
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EPT
