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On May 31 2010 03:56 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 03:18 Mortality wrote:On May 31 2010 01:07 JonathanJohnson wrote:On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is? You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan. But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say? Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak. Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months. Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results. I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't. Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1. Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
Ive come here off and on over the years, never really felt inclined to post before. I was pretty completely shocked to see that Effort won the OSL especially from being down 2-0 vs MrTvZ himself, cant remember ever seeing a bigger upset, although i wasnt around in the savior-bisu days.
There are some interesting posts here, but I dont recall anything about this ranking having a surge protector and anything less of a lightning strike than that result well...(although dual finals gold silver is pretty nice) I guess you might ask who made the brightest Flash? =D
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I hope Plexa posts the new PR soon.
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I have no idea who deserves #2 more between Effort and JD. There is no clear favourite in my eyes. It's very subjective.
I'm indescribably happy that the God of Terran managed to overcome that final hurdle; beating JD in a Bo5 (in a final). And he did it by crushing him 3-0 as well, something only Frogg had ever done before (at least I think so)! He's 100 ELO points ahead of #2 once again and he's bound to break the Kespa point record as well. And I do not foresee a slump incoming anytime soon, the fact that he bounced back from the OSL loss so fast shows how strong he has become mentally. He's obviously still the clear #1 on the scene, and JD/Nada has some serious competition in the race for the position as GOAT now that the Ultimate Weapon is starting to get the titles that his talent deserves. The next Starleague season will be very interesting.
Lee Young Ho fighting!
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On May 31 2010 04:58 Holgerius wrote:
I have no idea who deserves #2 more between Effort and JD. There is no clear favourite in my eyes. It's very subjective.
Come now we cant give flash third place, that would just be wrong
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You are so adorable, Jonathan.
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On May 31 2010 05:02 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You are so adorable, Jonathan.
thks =)
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Oh yeah baby, Flash back over 2400  back on track.
Jonathan = hot bid?
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On a different note, this Power Rank has more comments than any PR since the one for May last year. Incidentally, that was the month after which Effort hit #1! The guy sure generates conversation 
(Also, there was the issue of the Kespa dog that month.)
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On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote:
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
Where do you get that idea? The PR is about absolute recent power plus discounted past power. What is "power"? A combination of results and subjective evaluation of a player's play.
Effort does not deserve to be ranked higher because he played like shit last month: quite the opposite, in fact.
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On May 31 2010 02:15 Musoeun wrote:There's no question that EffOrt's accomplishment is phenomenal and could reasonably put him ahead of Jaedong for the time being. But even though he beat Flash, Flash is still the better player by almost any metric you can name. But you're arguing that EffOrt's change-in-position makes him #1. If anything, most PR writers (and even more of the readers), expect the PR to reduce the impact of sudden changes unless they're truly devestating. You know what might have earned EffOrt #1? A 3-0 win. Even 3-1 could make an argument. But this is not Bisu vs sAviOr ( and Bisu didn't even earn #1 for that piece of seismic activity). This was a close finals that EffOrt arguably wouldn't have had a shot at if Flash had played his standard safe game instead of cheesing. Flash got out-thought, not out-played (on the whole, the no-medic thing was idiotic), and still only lost by a single game.
Im so tired of all these Flash fanboys making johns for the OSL finals results. On one hand, everyone considers SC to be akin to Chess, yet on the other, when Flash loses in a Best of 5 it somehow becomes a valid excuse to say "Oh. He got out-thought not out-played." Effort is something like 20-2 since the super tiebreaker (and 4-2 vs Flash). Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that.
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Sea.Blue, can't you see any reasonable arguement for Flash getting #1 in next PR? I'm just asking...
"Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that."
It's not that simple.
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On May 31 2010 05:54 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:15 Musoeun wrote:There's no question that EffOrt's accomplishment is phenomenal and could reasonably put him ahead of Jaedong for the time being. But even though he beat Flash, Flash is still the better player by almost any metric you can name. But you're arguing that EffOrt's change-in-position makes him #1. If anything, most PR writers (and even more of the readers), expect the PR to reduce the impact of sudden changes unless they're truly devestating. You know what might have earned EffOrt #1? A 3-0 win. Even 3-1 could make an argument. But this is not Bisu vs sAviOr ( and Bisu didn't even earn #1 for that piece of seismic activity). This was a close finals that EffOrt arguably wouldn't have had a shot at if Flash had played his standard safe game instead of cheesing. Flash got out-thought, not out-played (on the whole, the no-medic thing was idiotic), and still only lost by a single game. Im so tired of all these Flash fanboys making johns for the OSL finals results. On one hand, everyone considers SC to be akin to Chess, yet on the other, when Flash loses in a Best of 5 it somehow becomes a valid excuse to say "Oh. He got out-thought not out-played." Effort is something like 20-2 since the super tiebreaker (and 4-2 vs Flash). Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out- done by Effort. No excuse changes that.
Flash lost to Effort fair and square, no question.
Flash is also a lot better at Starcraft than Effort and he just won a gold and a silver to Effort's gold.
#1 PR has never been more obvious.
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On May 31 2010 05:54 See.Blue wrote:
Snow beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Snow. No excuse changes that.
Surely you see the problem with your reasoning? Favorites lose games and even series, but it takes worse than a 2-3 loss and a 3-0 win (in simultaneous starleague finals) to unseat Flash from his throne.
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Yes Effort is like 15-2 in his last 17, but before that he was pretty awful. Since the start of April he's 19-8, whereas Flash has twice as many wins and one more loss.
Yes Effort won a best of five against Flash, but can any of you say you watch that series and thought "wow Effort is amazing" instead of "wow Flash threw that away". I don't think you can. Yes he is 4-2 against Flash recently but he simply cannot compete in a management game. If you go lurkers vs. valkyries and can't finish the game there are some serious concerns about your play, even if you end up with the win.
Flash himself said that once he was up 2-0 he lost focus. Effort made him pay with a nice 2-hatch build in game 3, nobody can deny that - but games 4 and 5 were hardly inspired. Heck, we can even boil this down to Gold + Silver vs. Gold if that makes it easier for you.
(This is directed at See.Blue as I have to assume Jonathan is a troll.)
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On May 31 2010 04:47 JonathanJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 04:01 Musoeun wrote:On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote:
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1. Find me one (1) specific example of a similar circumstance garnering #1. I already pointed out Bisu not getting #1 when he 3-0'd sAviOr. You have to do that first, and I don't think you can. But then you'd at least have an argument from precedent, even if your actual argument doesn't hold water (hint: no one is agreeing with you). For bonus points/plausibility points, then show me where/how this particular PR writer (Plexa) has used or is likely to use this line of reasoning, or how EffOrt #1 is consistent with Plexa's standards for PR. That's your challenge. When you can do one or both of those things, I'll be prepared to continue the argument. Not sure why you wouldnt bother to read the thread before posting, or is that my challenge too?
I don't even know what this means, but I think you're trying to tell me I didn't read the thread. I have. I'll deal with your purported examples here - no, I am not going to debate this, I am going to tell you why they fail - and then yes, that was a challenge to you. Go find good examples and I'll listen.
You brought up a total of two points, neither one of which meets either criteria of my challenge. Your first example, which you mention indirectly and without hard numbers/accomplishments, is the rank last June when EffOrt made #1. That rank's top five were: EffOrt, Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Leta. Bisu dropped from the previous rank, Jaedong and Flash climbed, and Leta stayed the same.
Here are the records:
#1 EffOrt: 16-1. That's a 94% winrate. His single loss was to Mind in a Bo3 in GOM that he won. He progressed in GOM, MSL, and OSL, as well as a perfect proleague record. This is probably the closest anyone has ever come to a perfect month of progaming. I don't know, maybe oov did better at some point.
#2 Bisu: 7-3. That's a 70% winrate (a 20% drop-off) and not much more than half as many games. He was not playing in GOM, out of the OSL, played one game in the MSL which he lost to Jangbi, and obviously went 7-2 in Proleague. He made #2 by beating Jaedong soundly after JD made a crucial mistake in the opening.
#3 Jaedong: 9-3 (75%). He was #3 because first, 3 of his wins were crushing some noob in GOM, and second, he lost to Bisu. Again, nowhere close to EffOrt's performance that month.
#4 Flash: 9-3 (75%). #4 mainly because at this point he hadn't showed that he was playing at the Bisu-Jaedong level (even though his record was identical to Jaedong's). Really a toss-up though.
#5 Leta: 6-2 (75%). No leagues, and lost to both Flash and Jaedong.
Summary: No one was anywhere close to EffOrt that month. NOWHERE CLOSE. Not in number of games, not in number of wins, not in play quality. EffOrt was furthermore already on the PR from the previous rank (#6). Additionally, there was no question that month of league titles. Gold and silver didn't factor into the argument AT ALL.
In contrast, this month's apparent top three:
EffOrt: 9-2 (82%). 3-0 Kal. Both losses against Flash who he ultimately beat. OSL gold. Perfect PL performance, including a win against Flash. Very very good, definitely.
Flash: 17-5 (77%). All four losses to EffOrt. A loss to Snow in proleague. More than twice as many games as EffOrt, half again as many as Jaedong. OSL silver. MSL gold, beating Jaedong (gold standard for Bo5) 3-0. Previously #1 for the last several months.
Jaedong: 12-4[ (75%). MSL silver. 3-1 Calm. 3 of those losses to Flash. Perfect in proleague.
Summary: all three at the top are extremely close. EffOrt has a slight edge in quality of wins and head-to-head (4-0 Flash is extremely impressive), but this month really is a streak far different from previous play. Flash had a much heavier workload, gets a higher total medal count (2 > 1) than either competitor, and of course 3-0 against Jaedong. Jaedong is a touch behind either competitor this month, but has shown stronger play for a longer stretch than either even if he's currently a touch behind Flash.
Conclusion: Your example fails. The difference is far less this time, and the change from the previous months is completely different. Try again. (Note: if this month was completely isolated, you could make an argument for EffOrt #1, but it would still be a shaky argument, because of Flash's gold+silver and huge accomplishment in beating Jaedong 3-0 vastly outweighs EffOrt's barely defeating Flash.)
Your second argument was based on something JWD said a while ago. I'll quote it again:
On June 13 2009 05:49 JWD wrote:
That makes total sense, and it gets at a really simple point about my PR philosophy: the rank should be based on both "who is better right now (i.e. who would win an ideal Bo5)" and "who was most impressive over the last month". Even if Bisu may still be a slight favorite in a hypothetical Bo5, Effort has earned his #1 spot by simply posting better results recently.
This fails on two levels. The most basic is that JWD is (most likely) not writing the PR. As the PR is somewhat subjective, calling on Plexa (or us) to abide by JWD's vision seems... strange.
The second is that your argument doesn't meet these criteria. The clear favorites (favorite = "should win a hypothetical game played right this moment to see who's better", not "who actually won") right now are:
Flash > Jaedong
Flash > EffOrt
Jaedong ??? EffOrt
EffOrt should probably be ranked over JD this month because he overcame those odds to actually win, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Flash would be the favorite even now if we somehow went back in time and re-did the OSL final.
And who was most impressive last month?
Major accomplishments:
EffOrt: 4-2 vs Flash, OSL gold.
Flash: MSL gold, 3-0 Jaedong, OSL silver.
Jaedong: MSL silver
EffOrt's accomplishment is... beating the clearly most accomplished player, and, yes, getting an OSL gold out of it. But 3-2 vs Flash - even 4-2 - simply is not the caliber of domination of a 3-0 vs Jaedong. Simply not.
So by JWD's own criteria - which don't reasonably apply to Plexa's PR in the first place - your argument falls apart.
Please find some better examples if you want to argue this further.
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I am for #1 Flash all the way, havent said otherwise since months. #2, #3 is a tossup between JD and Effort.
But what I really don't like is how everyone is saying odds are low that Effort wins another bo5 against Flash. Why is that?
If you call that win a fluke, well then I call Flash's win vs JD a fluke too.
Fact is, Flash got gold+silver, LOST a bo5 to Effort (if they rematch, I'd say its 60-40 favoured towards Flash, because he has more experience in bo5s)
But I'd also say JD vs Flash is 50-50 (except we get Thriatlon and Odd-Eye again).
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Superarc, I don't know about that.
Seems like the games vs Effort was very important for flash and we could clearly see in his Bo5 vs Jaedong that he had fixed the things he lacked.
He scouted earlier and was more cautious with building walls etc.
We saw what happened to effort if he didn't get a huge early lead or had a successful ling runby, hell he even got away with a 3hatch before pool build where all hatches were on different expansions and we saw what happened as soon as the game lasted over 10 minutes...
If flash corrects his errors, which he has, Effort is clearly the underdog in another Bo5.
That said, Effort is playing better and better and I hope he can show us some awesome games vs Flash in the future that doesn't rely on him winning in the early game.
Because you can't always rely on such things.
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On May 31 2010 05:54 See.Blue wrote:
Im so tired of all these Flash fanboys making johns for the OSL finals results. On one hand, everyone considers SC to be akin to Chess, yet on the other, when Flash loses in a Best of 5 it somehow becomes a valid excuse to say "Oh. He got out-thought not out-played." Effort is something like 20-2 since the super tiebreaker (and 4-2 vs Flash). Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that.
When I say "out-thought not out-played", I'm not trying to take away from EffOrt's accomplishment, I'm just trying to make the point that Flash is still a favorite over EffOrt. If Flash played EffOrt again, single set, Best of 3, Best of 5, Best of 1349, Flash would be at least a 65% favorite. At a guess. (Also I'm not a Flash fanboy, I'm a Stork-ite.)
There's no question that EffOrt deserved the win, and played the last three sets absolutely correctly - but there's also no point ignoring the fact that Flash screwed up his BO choice. And yes, Flash made some bad decisions and some bad plays (no medics, poor building placement), so yes, in that sense EffOrt outplayed Flash. But to me, "out-play" has a connotation of bringing the excellence. To "outplay" someone you have to do better than their best. I realize that's not exactly the dictionary definition, so that's why I'm trying to clarify. Some examples: July out-played BeSt, not just because July absolutely dominated the series but because it's hard to say what BeSt really did wrong. Jaedong outplayed fantasy in Batoo (at least the last 3 sets) even if fantasy prepped his builds with far more care. Compared to that, this OSL was far far more a case of Flash screwing up.
I am not in any way trying to take away from EffOrt's accomplishment, or make excuses, I'm just talking about what I saw. If you will, the quintessential example of defeating the opponent without "outplaying" him was the Boxer 3x bunker rush. The execution was a part of it, yes (for instance, with modern building placement and micro that kind of stunt wouldn't have better than a 40% chance of succeeding unless if was Flash vs Juni or something) but that's primarily a "thinking" victory.
I hope that helps clear things up - I'm trying to explain what's really a kind of fuzzy distinction though.
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I feel very confident that Flash has learned from his mistakes vs Effort. If they played a Bo5 today he would just make sure he gets to the late game without dying to lings and then ape-smash him. 
I have already said this earlier; I think Effort deserved to beat Flash that day. He won 3 games, Flash won 2, simple as that. I have never said anything else. But that does not make him the better overall player, and I sincerly doubt he would be able to repeat it.
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On May 31 2010 07:31 Holgerius wrote:I feel very confident that Flash has learned from his mistakes vs Effort. If they played a Bo5 today he would just make sure he gets to the late game without dying to lings and then ape-smash him. I have already said this earlier; I think Effort deserved to beat Flash that day. He won 3 games, Flash won 2, simple as that. I have never said anything else. But that does not make him the better overall player, and I sincerly doubt he would be able to repeat it.
Agreed. Flash would easily be the favorite if they were to face each other again in a Bo5. The MSL games vs. JD were very good examples of how Flash learned to avoid exactly the mistakes that he made against EffOrt. Good scouting & good walls and a bit more careful play(Medics...) make Lee Young God Effort's worst nightmare.
Also: Guys, just ignore that Jonathan fellow. It's either Hot Bid in disguise or the most successful PR troll I've ever seen.
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EPT
