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On May 24 2010 19:35 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 19:19 Ota Solgryn wrote:On May 23 2010 19:18 StylishVODs wrote:On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote:TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread. I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you... + Show Spoiler +
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back. The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him. I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that. Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever. I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game. The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him. Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it. So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense . I'm sorry you hate me then but I think Flash has better overall game management and macro/micro than any other player right now with the exception of jaedong when he's doing his best. If you think other players are as good as him overall then I'm fine with that. He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. He's just damn good at what he does. I congratulated effort on his win but I cannot say that he showed us amazing games in that series as far as I'm concerned. He played like Octoberzerg  And since you use that PL game to describe how effort won a straight up game I'm jsut going to assume that you don't know much about starcraft in the first place.
First of, I did not say I hate people, I said I hate that people think that flash has the best "straight up" game.
Also I did acknowlegde that he has very good mechanics and decisions, otherwise he would not be able to pull these calculated risks off that in almost every game he plays.
I'm just saying he forces people to do risks as well, which often means he forces his opponents to go early aggresion, because he cuts corners early. The thing is just that most players early aggresion is more blatant than flash's more subtle risks.
But look at JD's and Snow's way of turning flash's risks against him. In the last MSL between JD and flash, JD went 3 hatch before pool in 2 games (and in a proleague game later) and snow went FE with 2 zealots because they predicted that flash would cut the usual corners and they took advantage of this.
What I am trying to say is simply that Flash's late/mid game often seems imba, but this is largely applied to his ability to make very clever risks which sets him up for his lategame style. When these risks are insuccesful there are a handful of players that have just as good straight up game. IMO.
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Nobody's perfect. From time to time, your opening will be guessed correctly and countered. Still Flash won a ridiculous amount of games this month.
After the loss to Effort, it is important for Flash to acknowledge a lot of things. One of those things is the first sentence of my post. The other is - Jaedong is completely different thing. So, he should practice accordingly, to counter his play.
And the most important thing, that we all need from Flash. Forget about the games vs Effort, come to finals with clear and optimistic state of mind. This is what we all need to get a good finals.
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On May 24 2010 21:05 Ota Solgryn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 19:35 StylishVODs wrote:On May 24 2010 19:19 Ota Solgryn wrote:On May 23 2010 19:18 StylishVODs wrote:On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote:TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread. I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you... + Show Spoiler +
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back. The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him. I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that. Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever. I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game. The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him. Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it. So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense . I'm sorry you hate me then but I think Flash has better overall game management and macro/micro than any other player right now with the exception of jaedong when he's doing his best. If you think other players are as good as him overall then I'm fine with that. He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. He's just damn good at what he does. I congratulated effort on his win but I cannot say that he showed us amazing games in that series as far as I'm concerned. He played like Octoberzerg And since you use that PL game to describe how effort won a straight up game I'm jsut going to assume that you don't know much about starcraft in the first place. First of, I did not say I hate people, I said I hate that people think that flash has the best "straight up" game. Also I did acknowlegde that he has very good mechanics and decisions, otherwise he would not be able to pull these calculated risks off that in almost every game he plays. I'm just saying he forces people to do risks as well, which often means he forces his opponents to go early aggresion, because he cuts corners early. The thing is just that most players early aggresion is more blatant than flash's more subtle risks. But look at JD's and Snow's way of turning flash's risks against him. In the last MSL between JD and flash, JD went 3 hatch before pool in 2 games (and in a proleague game later) and snow went FE with 2 zealots because they predicted that flash would cut the usual corners and they took advantage of this. What I am trying to say is simply that Flash's late/mid game often seems imba, but this is largely applied to his ability to make very clever risks which sets him up for his lategame style. When these risks are insuccesful there are a handful of players that have just as good straight up game. IMO.
Ok I'm sorry, I misread that as "I hate people who thinks..." so I overreacted abit.
But I still stand by my point that he has the best game management out of all players right now. JD went 3 hatch before pool, same as effort simply to get an edge early on because they need it vs Flash. Effort more than Jaedong. Flash did in fact not use very risky builds vs JD, I would have liked to see 3hatch before pool vs 14CC for example, or both players open equal builds.
I agree that flash often cuts corners, all top players do, which leads him into a good position in the lategame but that is not all. In the lategame, no matter the start, Flash seems to have more control over numerous bases than any other player right now. Macro and so on while multitasking.
That is why he had almost 90% in proleague and was in both finals for the second time in a row.
He is simply that good.
To claim that any other progamer right now, except Jaedong if he's really back in form, has equal lategame management as Flash is just wrong
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I don't know about all the fancy little details which may make Flash the best, although of course I also have my theories.
The one thing I do know as a fact is, that whenever in any game they show Flashs base, his barracks are always blinking. Always. All the time, until he runs out of ressources. Macro in general has become pretty unreal, but compared to other terrans (it's hard to compare with Z's or P's) Flash is just the king of macro. His timing attacks often look so strong because he literally just produces more units than his opponent with the same base-count. Add that to the fact that he sometimes doesn't lose a single marine to early flanks (in zvt that is), and you got yourself unreal armies very early on.
Anyway. If he beats JD he stays #1, if he loses he has to be #2. EffOrt should be #3 regardless what happens.
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On May 24 2010 16:55 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote:I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol Me neither =/
I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash.
Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism.
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On May 25 2010 04:19 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 16:55 Mooncat wrote:On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote:I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol Me neither =/ I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash. Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism.
I don't know man... punnishing his risks? More like punnishing terrans weakness early game.
He did it well but it's not really that hard.
The games he won were basically 2hatch massling and get a surround ealry game, then he scouted the proxy and then he did zergling allin that I see alot on iccup lower levels.
Effective but not that hard to do.
Effort is good and can play a well managed game, don't get me wrong, but what he did to win those games doesn't exactly merrit that much credit or mentioning that he played amazingly or something like that.....
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Yeah. Effort deserves the opposite of criticism, but games 3-5 were really like Flash vs Kwanro game 2, only three consecutive times instead of once. Now, I do think Effort is better than Kwanro, but still...
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Actually, if you think about this game as a STRATEGY game, you will understand that EffOrt did play amazing, as he used the correct strategies to counteract FlaSh's only real weakness. So what if the games EffOrt won weren't macro games? This game isn't about pure mechanics like IdrA would want you to believe. EffOrt played perfectly well, and won the series. That's all that counts.
Now I just can't wait for Jaedong to smash FlaSh, it's extremely boring to see one player dominate, and I think FlaSh has burnt out by now.
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On May 25 2010 04:26 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 04:19 Mindcrime wrote:On May 24 2010 16:55 Mooncat wrote:On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote:I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol Me neither =/ I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash. Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism. I don't know man... punnishing his risks? More like punnishing terrans weakness early game. He did it well but it's not really that hard. The games he won were basically 2hatch massling and get a surround ealry game, then he scouted the proxy and then he did zergling allin that I see alot on iccup lower levels. Effective but not that hard to do. Effort is good and can play a well managed game, don't get me wrong, but what he did to win those games doesn't exactly merrit that much credit or mentioning that he played amazingly or something like that.....
This and I still think Game 3 was more luck than anything else... Had Flash waited 2 more seconds for his medics it would have been a completely different game. Whether you believe the "EffOrt lured Flash out by losing lings on purpose" stories or not, there was no way in hell EffOrt could have calculated that Flash would move out without his 2 medics instead of waiting 1 or 2 more secs. I'm not saying EffOrt played like crap in that game and only won by luck, but this was the game winning situation imho and it was based mainly on luck.
I'm comfortable with giving EffOrt credit for Game 4, since he expected Flash to proxy and thus scouted it. But again, it was basically one crucial moment that decided the rest of the game. It would have required some huge mistake on EffOrt's part to allow Flash to come back from this.
Game 5 was completely Flash's own fault. In retrospect, I don't even blame him for going 14CC, as some people have elaborated why he might have felt that he needed to. He should have walled off though.
Summary: Game 3 - Luck; Game 4 - Scouting(one crucial moment of scouting as opposed to perfect scouting over a 20min. game for example); Game 5 - Screw up by Flash
EffOrt didn't take single straight up macro game off of Flash.
Now don't get me wrong. Of course this isn't an in-depth analysis and I am biased being a Flash fan. On the other hand though I'm a CJ fan too, so it could have hit me worse. The thing is, I have accepted that EffOrt won the OSL fair and square, but don't expect me to give him a crap ton of credit or praise for the way he did it.
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On May 25 2010 04:33 okum wrote:
Yeah. Effort deserves the opposite of criticism, but games 3-5 were really like Flash vs Kwanro game 2, only three consecutive times instead of once. Now, I do think Effort is better than Kwanro, but still...
Flash wanted mind games
he got mind games. props to the winner
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On May 25 2010 04:38 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
Actually, if you think about this game as a STRATEGY game, you will understand that EffOrt did play amazing, as he used the correct strategies to counteract FlaSh's only real weakness. So what if the games EffOrt won weren't macro games? This game isn't about pure mechanics like IdrA would want you to believe. EffOrt played perfectly well, and won the series. That's all that counts.
Now I just can't wait for Jaedong to smash FlaSh, it's extremely boring to see one player dominate, and I think FlaSh has burnt out by now.
Yes i know...
He used risky strategies that worked out but could just as easily have failed.
He didn't rely on his skill to win these games. He relied on doing a risky desicion early on that paid of this time.
Who won is all that counts if you look at score. But if you look at power rank that is hardly everything.
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Can't we just get the Darth Vader system back?
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On May 25 2010 05:23 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 04:26 StylishVODs wrote:On May 25 2010 04:19 Mindcrime wrote:On May 24 2010 16:55 Mooncat wrote:On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote:I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol Me neither =/ I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash. Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism. I don't know man... punnishing his risks? More like punnishing terrans weakness early game. He did it well but it's not really that hard. The games he won were basically 2hatch massling and get a surround ealry game, then he scouted the proxy and then he did zergling allin that I see alot on iccup lower levels. Effective but not that hard to do. Effort is good and can play a well managed game, don't get me wrong, but what he did to win those games doesn't exactly merrit that much credit or mentioning that he played amazingly or something like that..... This and I still think Game 3 was more luck than anything else... Had Flash waited 2 more seconds for his medics it would have been a completely different game. Whether you believe the "EffOrt lured Flash out by losing lings on purpose" stories or not, there was no way in hell EffOrt could have calculated that Flash would move out without his 2 medics instead of waiting 1 or 2 more secs. I'm not saying EffOrt played like crap in that game and only won by luck, but this was the game winning situation imho and it was based mainly on luck.
Flash chose not to wait. It had nothing to do with luck, and everything to do with Flash taking a risk by assuming that Effort did not have those lings and attempting to pressure him and getting punished for it.
EffOrt didn't take single straight up macro game off of Flash.
Maybe he would have if Flash hadn't made crucial mistakes in two of the last three games and gotten read like a book in the other.
Flash got outplayed.
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I think people were too intimidated by Flash's late game. He always took these risks. It's just that Effort figured out his pattern of riskiness and beat him in a BO5. Now, more and more people will challenge flash early game and Flash will struggle to adapt for a bit. His 80+ % win rate will come down to low 70s or high 60s. This happens to every pro-gamer.
There's no way Flash can play safe against the Dong. He has to take smarter risks and hope that JD does not get his counters right.
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Well this whole argument started with someone saying that people think wrongly that flash is better at management games than others. And you prove it by pointing to the series vs effort?
It just doesn't add up.
Yeah, flash got outplayed. But it has nothing to do with the argument.
By reading some of the posts I understand it as some of you think he's better at management because he cuts risky corners. Thats not why he has better macro/micro.
Sure if he cuts corners he will get more money, thus more production facilities earlier on, but it has nothing to do with him being able to keep up the use of those buildings while attacking all over the place at the same time.
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On May 25 2010 06:12 Mindcrime wrote:Maybe he would have if Flash hadn't made crucial mistakes in two of the last three games and gotten read like a book in the other. Flash got outplayed.
Well, he had really nice chance to do so in game 1 or 2, right? He even had a pretty good BO advantage in game 2 and still got completely crushed. He really looked pretty clueless that game.
But losing to Flash in a straight up game is not a shame...even losing to him if you have initial advantage could be considered pretty normal, that often it happens. Similarly, win is a win, Flash apparently understands it much better than most fans out there (just remember the shitstorm last OSL after he kicked out Jaedong). I'm sure he isn't blaming Effort in the slightest and neither do I.
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On May 24 2010 13:18 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote:
Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it. I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time. Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash.
Umm, me thinks you are underestimating the roles of Mind, ForGG and Fantasy, all of whom were briefly even with or even ahead of Flash in the past three years or so (although I guess Mind was a bit before Flash's first round of dominance).
Historically, Flash has twice arisen as the dominant Terran leader, once around Bacchus 2008 OSL and then once again more recently. I would point out that his notable contribution back in 08 was to TvP and I wouldn't regard him as a particularly major metagame influence at that time [EDIT: I meant to say "to TvZ" here, but my mind jumped ahead of my fingers; 08 was Flash's biggest contribution to TvP]. It wasn't until his more recent dominance that TvZ metagame was his ballpark really at all. It was only about a year ago that the power rank featured Kwanro with a pithy remark to the effect of: He beat Flash twice proving only that he's a Zerg. And at the time, fans would routinely scream on the message boards things to the effect of: God damn it flash, stick with the SK Terran, that's all you're good at!
Even with TvP, I'd hesitate to call what Flash is doing now "leading the TvP metagame." It's more like he understands PvT metagame better than anyone and then relies heavily on his super strong fundamentals.
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HaHa, Things Flash Fanboys are typing are so funny =)
Flash woulda coulda shoulda wait for 2 medics,
but there was an option of 6 hatcheries going on
like in first game of this so mindgames series =)
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On the subject of Flash vs Effort, before the regame, Effort's position seemed favorable. Not including that Effort is 4-2 against Flash in the past few weeks. Way too much hate on Effort going on and way too many excuses for Flash. He might be the better player, but he lost fair and square. Not the first time that's ever happened to a top gamer.
The question now becomes how he fairs against Jaedong.
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Yeah well I'm just arguing for Flash having better game management than any other player at the moment and I don't think thats such an unreasonable statement but if some think so I'll agree to disagree.
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EPT
