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On May 23 2010 19:48 InFdude wrote:
I agree with the post above me . We all know that 2 finals are > 6 SL titles . IMO we should put Flash at N1 and his monitor at N2 because it is the only thing that can beat flash in a stright up game .
1. Nada
2. Jaedong
3. oov
4. Savior
5. July
6. Bisu
Wait, this isn't the "all time Starleague titles" rank? Never mind then....
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Another argument for JD>Flash is when JD wins the finals is can you really give a person with nine losses #1?
Nine losses that all mattered.
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On May 23 2010 21:41 SuperArc wrote:
Another argument for JD>Flash is when JD wins the finals is can you really give a person with nine losses #1?
Nine losses that all mattered.
I note your use of "when" instead of "if".
We'll see.
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On May 23 2010 21:41 SuperArc wrote:
Another argument for JD>Flash is when JD wins the finals is can you really give a person with nine losses #1?
Nine losses that all mattered.
Yeah, resultwise it's hard to defend that being #1.
Reaching both finals is inhuman though. Both players he faced only had to prepare for one.
I stand by it that if jaedong shows he is better than flash in the finals he should get #1 because then he performed better this month. This is a monthly rank after all, but effort should no way be above flash because PR is not only about score but how you play and what skill you posess.
And flash will win MSL, flash fighting!! :D
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Maaan the one thing that annoys me is that there's no way Flash's Elo is recovering from this. He barely recovers everytime he gets one loss, much less this many.
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On May 23 2010 22:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Maaan the one thing that annoys me is that there's no way Flash's Elo is recovering from this. He barely recovers everytime he gets one loss, much less this many.
Blah, he's so good that he'll be back on 2400 in no time. Atleast his record is very likely never being surpassed:D
But I must say, it seems as if he actually is choking hardcore vs zergs in finals hehe
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On May 23 2010 21:57 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 21:41 SuperArc wrote:
Another argument for JD>Flash is when JD wins the finals is can you really give a person with nine losses #1?
Nine losses that all mattered. Yeah, resultwise it's hard to defend that being #1. Reaching both finals is inhuman though. Both players he faced only had to prepare for one. I stand by it that if jaedong shows he is better than flash in the finals he should get #1 because then he performed better this month. This is a monthly rank after all, but effort should no way be above flash because PR is not only about score but how you play and what skill you posess. And flash will win MSL, flash fighting!! :D
if it was the other way around and had he played the msl finals first and lose than i would have agreed that there was no way he would lose to effort ,,,, infact how the hell did he lose to him?,,,
i'm pretty sure it wont affect him too much but still the dong is the dong
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No matter what Effort should be #2.
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That's the beauty of the monthly power rank ... you get crushed in MST (hi Effort 0-2 to scrub Terrans)/ODT (hi Jaedong 0-2 getting worked hard by Baby on FS) but since it's two months ago it doesn't matter as much. That's fair, monthly is monthly and performance before the month should count for less.
Still, I can't believe we're seeing the day where a player who has crushed all opposition with just one exception for 8 months in a row, makes 4 out of 4 finals, then loses the OSL 3-2 is now potentially #3 (I guess you can make an argument for it if he gets crushed convincingly 3-0 by JD).
Such is the fickle nature of progaming. Just like that.
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On May 24 2010 08:49 darktreb wrote:
That's the beauty of the monthly power rank ... you get crushed in MST (hi Effort 0-2 to scrub Terrans)/ODT (hi Jaedong 0-2 getting worked hard by Baby on FS) but since it's two months ago it doesn't matter as much. That's fair, monthly is monthly and performance before the month should count for less.
Still, I can't believe we're seeing the day where a player who has crushed all opposition with just one exception for 8 months in a row, makes 4 out of 4 finals, then loses the OSL 3-2 is now potentially #3 (I guess you can make an argument for it if he gets crushed convincingly 3-0 by JD).
Such is the fickle nature of progaming. Just like that.
FlaSh could forget to build a fifth scv all three games against Jaedong and he still wouldn't be 3
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On May 23 2010 21:57 StylishVODs wrote:
This is a monthly rank after all, but effort should no way be above flash because PR is not only about score but how you play and what skill you posess.
Effort did not achieve his recent 4-2 record over Flash by being outplayed. :|
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On May 23 2010 19:18 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote:TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread. I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you... + Show Spoiler +
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back. The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him. I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that. Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
Regarding spoilers, it's the magnitude of the event that bothers me with people talking so candidly. I already knew the result coming in here, but still.
Making both finals may be more impressive than winning one final, but JD is now in his fourth consecutive final, which I would consider even more impressive than making two finals (what IS impressive, however, is that Flash has now back-to-back made two finals).
Really the thing about Flash, as I've said elsewhere, is that it's his near perfect fundamentals that makes him so ridiculously hard to beat. I don't think it's fair to criticize players for trying to get an early advantage. This is a strategy game and losing to well-planned strategy is a part of this game. And so far, Flash's weakness is that he seems to make certain kinds of tactical/strategic errors. So far, Zergs have been the best at exploiting this, largely because ZvT has evolved in a way different than most other match-ups: ZvT openings these days are incredibly diverse and Zerg tactics have become much deeper. As much as I hate to say it, in many ways Zerg has become the most strategic race.
An integral part of Flash's game play is taking calculated risks to strengthen his mid/late game. Zergs are much better at figuring out when those risks are being made and exploiting them. Effort's win over Flash should not be overlooked because he did exactly what he was supposed to and managed to exploit tactical errors.
Interestingly, as much as I think of Jaedong as a mechanical player, this is where he shines over Flash: he's a much better strategic player. I'm sure now a gazillion Flash fans will come out of the woodwork to scream at me for saying it, but it's true, and it's exactly why Jaedong is so damn good at Bo5's [edit: comment amended elsewhere].
I think Protoss, on the other hand, is suffering right now from a stagnation in strategic development. A player with Nal_Ra's mind and Bisu's hands would make a killing right now, but there isn't such a player, hence why Jaedong and Flash, the two closest players to being perfect, walk over toss player after toss player with little effort.
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On May 24 2010 10:11 Mortality wrote:
Interestingly, as much as I think of Jaedong as a mechanical player, this is where he shines over Flash: he's a much better strategic player. I'm sure now a gazillion Flash fans will come out of the woodwork to scream at me for saying it, but it's true, and it's exactly why Jaedong is so damn good at Bo5's..
+ Show Spoiler +
Seriously though, I believe the reason why JD is doing so well in BO5 is his incredible mental strength, not strategical superiority...
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Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
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 BoxeR will Never be back on the Rank. I'm dissapointed.
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On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote:
Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time.
Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash.
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I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol
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On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote:I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol
Me neither =/
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On May 23 2010 19:18 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote:TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread. I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you... + Show Spoiler +
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back. The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him. I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that. Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game.
Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game.
The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him.
Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it.
So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense .
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On May 24 2010 19:19 Ota Solgryn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 19:18 StylishVODs wrote:On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote:TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread. I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you... + Show Spoiler +
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back. The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him. I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that. Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever. I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game. The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him. Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it. So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense .
I'm sorry you hate me then but I think Flash has better overall game management and macro/micro than any other player right now with the exception of jaedong when he's doing his best.
If you think other players are as good as him overall then I'm fine with that.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. He's just damn good at what he does. I congratulated effort on his win but I cannot say that he showed us amazing games in that series as far as I'm concerned. He played like Octoberzerg
And since you use that PL game to describe how effort won a straight up game I'm jsut going to assume that you don't know much about starcraft in the first place.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/01/scream_narrowweb__300x377,0.jpg)
