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On May 25 2010 07:22 StylishVODs wrote:
Yeah well I'm just arguing for Flash having better game management than any other player at the moment and I don't think thats such an unreasonable statement but if some think so I'll agree to disagree.
His game management is the best. That's exactly in line with what I'm saying. But game management is only a part of skill. Flash's failures were much more tactical in nature. Or do you disagree with that?
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No, I agree...
I was mainly replying to Dracovolantus' post.
As to you last statement, I completely agree that he made tactical errors. But it's important to emphasize that he only made it during this Bo5. It not something he does often or is known for and it can easily get blown out of proportion when discussing about it this close after the OSL finals.
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derp de derp
love the fact that the OSL champ wasn't even on the previous months CBNC, let alone PR.
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Because he had done literally nothing impressive leading into this month. And anything that was impressive was overshadowed by the rematch catastrophe.
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On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote:TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread. I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you... + Show Spoiler +
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
and if JD convincingly crushes flash, i claim he should be the goddamn bonjwa. the fucker has been winning consistently with minislumps in proleague for like 2 years (i mean, the bonjwas of old lost proleague games here and there, savior lost a bunch even though i dont know if they were rigged or not)
if flash can be considered a bonjwa for dominating for basically 6 months, fucking jaedong should be crowned already if flash goes down to him YET AGAIN!
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On May 25 2010 07:05 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 13:18 darktreb wrote:On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote:
Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it. I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time. Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash. Umm, me thinks you are underestimating the roles of Mind, ForGG and Fantasy, all of whom were briefly even with or even ahead of Flash in the past three years or so (although I guess Mind was a bit before Flash's first round of dominance).
I agree that Mind/ForGG/Fantasy had moments when they were doing better in Starleagues than Flash, but that's different than what I'm saying.
When it comes to trends and matchup flow, Fantasy definitely had an impact in TvZ (and sort of TvP but not quite to the same degree. As for Mind ... sort of but not really, and ForGG no. I am a BIG Mind fan and watched nearly all of his games. He never dictated the metagame nearly to the degree that Flash had. He crafted extremely well-timed and solid timing attacks and similar builds that were often both map and position specific, which allowed him to be successful. But he never even had a style stable enough for him to win more than 50% of his games - one week he'd beat Jaedong on Blue Storm and the next he'd lose to some scrub. That was Mind in a nutshell for you back then.
Similarly, ForGG basically timing attacked until it ran out of juice. It was certainly effective for awhile (ForGG 5-0 Bisu, 3-0 Jaedong, 4-1 Flash at one point in history is one of the great wow records of all time). Flash even said in an interview that he has long been looking for a TvP style that was sustainable, as opposed to ForGG's timing attack style that is heavily metagame dependent (it can't work repeatedly if it becomes the standard).
I'm not trying to say Flash was head and shoulders above every Terran player for the entire past 2 years, because he wasn't. I'm as big of a Flash fan as there is and yet I posted numerous times that Fantasy was a better Starleague player back during Flash's individual league struggles.
But in terms of the evolution of Terran, Flash has really contributed an incredible amount throughout the course of his career. His ability to come up with new subtle (and STABLE) innovations time and time again is reflected in his consistency - at no point in the past 2 years was a Terran winning PL games more consistently and at a higher clip than Flash, and for good reason.
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On May 24 2010 19:35 StylishVODs wrote:
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time.
I respect you and your opinion a lot, stylish, but this is a major flaw in logic and needs to be pointed out. The definition of a great SC player (beyond high APM and map awareness) is the player who can take the most successful calculated risks. Starcraft is, more than anything, a game about cutting corners successfully, and Flash is currently far-and-away the best player at doing this.
The concept of "Game Sense" is really a matter of knowing your opponent well enough to get away with stopping their advance/drop/expand/whatever with the absolute least amount of commitment at the last possible second. Outmacroing an opponent is largely a function of making the least possible troops early on so you can make the most dudes possible later. Timing in general is based entirely on the system of calculated risks that take place constantly, all the time, and result in minuscule windows for punishment.
Flash is able to cut corners and take enormous risks early in the game because he has exceptional micro and the ability to capitalize off any economic advantage over the course of a game. And Flash does cut corners, every game, similar to how every progamer does every game - he just has an extremely strong tendency to cut slightly larger corners in every single game because he knows how to survive timing windows so well and knows how to convert eco into a win better than anyone else.
What I'm saying is that taking risks all the time is EXACTLY how flash got this far - he just has an unbelievable understanding of the odds and his own abilities.
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On May 25 2010 09:58 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 07:05 Mortality wrote:On May 24 2010 13:18 darktreb wrote:On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote:
Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it. I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time. Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash. Umm, me thinks you are underestimating the roles of Mind, ForGG and Fantasy, all of whom were briefly even with or even ahead of Flash in the past three years or so (although I guess Mind was a bit before Flash's first round of dominance). I agree that Mind/ForGG/Fantasy had moments when they were doing better in Starleagues than Flash, but that's different than what I'm saying. When it comes to trends and matchup flow, Fantasy definitely had an impact in TvZ (and sort of TvP but not quite to the same degree. As for Mind ... sort of but not really, and ForGG no. I am a BIG Mind fan and watched nearly all of his games. He never dictated the metagame nearly to the degree that Flash had. He crafted extremely well-timed and solid timing attacks and similar builds that were often both map and position specific, which allowed him to be successful. But he never even had a style stable enough for him to win more than 50% of his games - one week he'd beat Jaedong on Blue Storm and the next he'd lose to some scrub. That was Mind in a nutshell for you back then. Similarly, ForGG basically timing attacked until it ran out of juice. It was certainly effective for awhile (ForGG 5-0 Bisu, 3-0 Jaedong, 4-1 Flash at one point in history is one of the great wow records of all time). Flash even said in an interview that he has long been looking for a TvP style that was sustainable, as opposed to ForGG's timing attack style that is heavily metagame dependent (it can't work repeatedly if it becomes the standard). I'm not trying to say Flash was head and shoulders above every Terran player for the entire past 2 years, because he wasn't. I'm as big of a Flash fan as there is and yet I posted numerous times that Fantasy was a better Starleague player back during Flash's individual league struggles. But in terms of the evolution of Terran, Flash has really contributed an incredible amount throughout the course of his career. His ability to come up with new subtle (and STABLE) innovations time and time again is reflected in his consistency - at no point in the past 2 years was a Terran winning PL games more consistently and at a higher clip than Flash, and for good reason.
I'm certainly not trying to say that Flash has contributed nothing to the metagame, but those other Terrans, when they were dominant, led the metagame if only for a brief while. And to be clear (since I feel like I wasn't in my last post), I wasn't just pointing them out because they rivaled Flash at one point: I have never felt like Leta or Light made a significant metagame contribution even though Leta was a top proleague ace labeled one of the three "shining stars" of Terran (along with Flash and Fantasy) who had famous two port wraith TvZ (his wraiths are a bit like zero's queens: cool to watch, but never something that I felt made it into the playbook) and even though Light was our Winner's League MVP even above Flash. Counter to them, Mind, ForGG and Fantasy have all put their earmarks on Terran metagame over the years.
I must confess that I don't see this incredible contribution to the metagame. Maybe I'm unfairly comparing Flash to our past Terran bonjwas (the again Flash is a bonjwa hopeful), but there are even non-bonjwa Terran players I'd be inclined to point to as having equal or bigger metagame significance (most notably Midas). That's not meant as a mark against Flash as a gamer -- certainly right now, if nothing else, he's the most studied gamer -- but his strength is more like an uncopiable skill (hurray for made up words!). It's his supreme strength at the fundamentals. He can do things like defend against the mutas with fewer turrets made slightly later, losing slightly fewer marines, ultimately leading to a vastly stronger midgame. You can copy his build and you can copy his strategy (and I'll make a point of differentiating between the two), but you won't do it as well. That's Flash's strength as a gamer and that's why Flash fans are crazy in love with him.
As for Flash's consistency, I would argue something very different: Flash's proleague dominance is a product of his incredibly strong fundamentals. This is why even during the in between years going from Flash 1.0 (early 2008) to Flash 2.0 (late 2009 through today) where Flash's style wasn't as well defined or stable, Flash continued to win games at an extraordinary rate.
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On May 25 2010 10:05 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 19:35 StylishVODs wrote:
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. I respect you and your opinion a lot, stylish, but this is a major flaw in logic and needs to be pointed out. The definition of a great SC player (beyond high APM and map awareness) is the player who can take the most successful calculated risks. Starcraft is, more than anything, a game about cutting corners successfully, and Flash is currently far-and-away the best player at doing this. The concept of "Game Sense" is really a matter of knowing your opponent well enough to get away with stopping their advance/drop/expand/whatever with the absolute least amount of commitment at the last possible second. Outmacroing an opponent is largely a function of making the least possible troops early on so you can make the most dudes possible later. Timing in general is based entirely on the system of calculated risks that take place constantly, all the time, and result in minuscule windows for punishment. Flash is able to cut corners and take enormous risks early in the game because he has exceptional micro and the ability to capitalize off any economic advantage over the course of a game. And Flash does cut corners, every game, similar to how every progamer does every game - he just has an extremely strong tendency to cut slightly larger corners in every single game because he knows how to survive timing windows so well and knows how to convert eco into a win better than anyone else. What I'm saying is that taking risks all the time is EXACTLY how flash got this far - he just has an unbelievable understanding of the odds and his own abilities.
Good post. Thumbs up.
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On May 25 2010 10:05 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 19:35 StylishVODs wrote:
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. I respect you and your opinion a lot, stylish, but this is a major flaw in logic and needs to be pointed out. The definition of a great SC player (beyond high APM and map awareness) is the player who can take the most successful calculated risks. Starcraft is, more than anything, a game about cutting corners successfully, and Flash is currently far-and-away the best player at doing this. The concept of "Game Sense" is really a matter of knowing your opponent well enough to get away with stopping their advance/drop/expand/whatever with the absolute least amount of commitment at the last possible second. Outmacroing an opponent is largely a function of making the least possible troops early on so you can make the most dudes possible later. Timing in general is based entirely on the system of calculated risks that take place constantly, all the time, and result in minuscule windows for punishment. Flash is able to cut corners and take enormous risks early in the game because he has exceptional micro and the ability to capitalize off any economic advantage over the course of a game. And Flash does cut corners, every game, similar to how every progamer does every game - he just has an extremely strong tendency to cut slightly larger corners in every single game because he knows how to survive timing windows so well and knows how to convert eco into a win better than anyone else. What I'm saying is that taking risks all the time is EXACTLY how flash got this far - he just has an unbelievable understanding of the odds and his own abilities.
Yes I agree with most part of your post. I'm trying to point out that by cutting corners in a well calculated way lets you set up for a good position in lategame which Flash utalizes almost every game.
However the reason why he is able to keep up his macro almost without flaw (constantly during a full game) and at the same time do all the actions he does can not simply be explained with cutting corners, wouldn't you agree?
His descisionmaking (moves throughout the game and "cutting corners"), and his raw mechanic skill combined, is the reason why he's playing starcraft at his current level.
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On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote:
If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point.
ManagementApm
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Baby for top5 please. 
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now that's what i'm talkin about superarc!
somehow baby always gets panned in the power rank thread, and yet the live report threads of his games are always "i can't believe he's doing that" "where are all these units coming from" "omg cho gosu apm" "the new boxer" etc.
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On May 25 2010 18:32 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote:
If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point. Management Apm
Why use a picture Stylish? 
+ Show Spoiler +
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I dont know how to make the =/= thingy
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I don't think there is any sane person questioning that yet
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 25 2010 18:32 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote:
If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point. Management Apm
That said,  EffOrt's management, (especially his hive management) is at least as good as, if not better than Jaedong's, and probably second only to  Flash.
Also, I said it before, but fantasy should be on this next ranking. Check out his last month, it's quietly been very strong. He's beaten some good players without playing TvP, and lost once to the presumed top three on the next PR.
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On May 26 2010 01:05 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 18:32 StylishVODs wrote:On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote:
If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point. Management Apm That said, EffOrt's management, (especially his hive management) is at least as good as, if not better than Jaedong's, and probably second only to Flash.
No it's not, where is this even coming from?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i46.tinypic.com/255kifs.jpg)
