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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2009 02:43 zazen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:36 Plexa wrote:On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote:
I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking. The reason I think he should be in the PR is because I believe PL results are more worthy of "power" than individual league results. Luxury, along with Flash, is no doubt the reason why KT are standing strong in the first position of the league.  cool - so crushing Juni, Killer and Special were such amazing victories. Dude just go watch luxury's last 5 games and you'll see instantly why he didn't make the cut (clue: he played like crap).
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On November 02 2009 02:43 zazen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:36 Plexa wrote:On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote:
I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking. The reason I think he should be in the PR is because I believe PL results are more worthy of "power" than individual league results. Luxury, along with Flash, is no doubt the reason why KT are standing strong in the first position of the league.
How can you value Bo1 games more than Bo3s?
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Doesn't matter, guys, Flash is #1!
Ultimate Weapon back in action, Little Monster eating nooblets! End is nigh! Child Labor powers go!
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Yep, Flash at the top no doubt.
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Actually I have one complaint, after reading through some old PRs.
Please write more in the PR, more exitement and such. The older PRs were more fun to read. :D
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On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote:
I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month.
Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose , because his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung can beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . It's more like Hwaseung has been leting JD down that last PL season and this one then vice versa .
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On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote:
I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis .
But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk.
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On November 02 2009 02:32 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 00:46 fanatacist wrote:On November 02 2009 00:42 Musoeun wrote:On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote:
Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR. Yes and no. Yes he played kind of badly. But he doesn't have a losing record and he's still a favorite in a Best-of-5 against almost anybody not on the PR and some who did make it (hi, Kal, fantasy). I think he's a little too high (I'd put Calm over him and maybe Stork, but then I'm a Stork fanboy) but I'm not ready to argue with him making the PR - yet. If we get another bad month out of him, then I'll consider it. You think that Jaedong is that high of a favorite over fantasy? I thought that their recent games in the SPL finals would at least add on to the fact that they played a decent series previously, but I guess haters will always be haters. I would agree to putting Calm above Jaedong, but not Stork. I'll be honest: I don't like fantasy. So yes, I do think Jaedong is still a favorite over fantasy. Maybe not by much (if you look at my post, my change to the PR would have JD 4, fantasy 6, which isn't a huge difference), but I really don't think fantasy's played very solidly lately, any more than Jaedong has. This month he may be 4-3 overall, but he's 1-2 against good opponents (1-3 if you count Stats' PvT as a good opponent). Jaedong in contrast is 3-3, 2-2 against good opponents. Jaedong does have an inexplicable loss of his own - to 815. They're performing about equally badly compared to their peaks, but in series play I will still take Jaedong over fantasy every time. If you make it one game, fantasy's more liable to come out with a build and win, but in series play that approach doesn't hold up as well. EDIT: While I'm at it, the biggest problem with Calm to my mind is that one of his losses was an ace game. The only ace game JD's gotten to play, he won (and essentially made one of his own losses meaningless). Look, in a sane world Jaedong would have played two more ace games than he actually has, and probably would have won both. DarkElf and Modesty? Please. That would give him a 5-3 record, 3 ace wins, 2 leagues, and suddenly #2 makes a lot more sense. I'm not saying that riptide factored that in... but it could be part of it.
What I was trying to say was that JD vs. Fantasy I'd say is 60-40 in a Bo5, but everyone else (including you) makes it seem to me like you all think JD would curbstomp Fantasy 99 times out of a 100. I don't see how preparation for a BoX and having a different build for each map is that different from a 1 game set in SPL finals - the pressure is there, I guess the thing missing is some of that adaptation to the play of your opponent but if its different builds each time then what effect does it have? Psychological effects can remain but are arguable.
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I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
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On November 02 2009 02:44 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:29 n.DieJokes wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote:
I strongly object to JD at 2. Because he lost to Hyuk. When you say players who beat him this month, you really just mean Hyuk, and by soundly you mean won a 10 minute ZvZ JD also lost to ZerO…and every ZvZ is 10 minutes, I don't see your point there. JD and Hyuk opened with identical builds, and Hyuk simply outmicroed JD for the win. Also it's pretty lame to directly edit my quote like that :/
JD lost to ZerO (whom he then beat in an ace match, so I consider the loss meaningless). He lost to Hyuk due to losing an extra overlord (and never looking for Hyuk's in time), which isn't so much a micro mistake as decision-making or something. The loss to 815 is the only "bad" loss. We've seen nothing in leagues yet because he's seeded. He hasn't been playing ace matches because OZ is... building for the future. I really consider this month's results insufficient to say anything about Jaedong's real form, other than that it's not the level it was two-three months ago.
That said I'd still put him at #4 or #5 myself rather than #2, but hey.
On November 02 2009 02:52 fanatacist wrote:
What I was trying to say was that JD vs. Fantasy I'd say is 60-40 in a Bo5, but everyone else (including you) makes it seem to me like you all think JD would curbstomp Fantasy 99 times out of a 100. I don't see how preparation for a BoX and having a different build for each map is that different from a 1 game set in SPL finals - the pressure is there, I guess the thing missing is some of that adaptation to the play of your opponent but if its different builds each time then what effect does it have? Psychological effects can remain but are arguable.
Here, let me quote myself: "So yes, I do think Jaedong is still a favorite over fantasy. Maybe not by much (if you look at my post, my change to the PR would have JD 4, fantasy 6, which isn't a huge difference)... in series play I will still take Jaedong over fantasy every time. If you make it one game, fantasy's more liable to come out with a build and win..."
Yes, I think Jaedong's better than fantasy in a BoX series. No, I wouldn't bet on JD in a single game. How is that saying "curbstomp 99 times out of 100"? I'm trying to be reasonable here, and you're basically accusing me of being a rabid JD fanboy.
As for the difference between single sets and series: Jaedong is 2-0 in Bo5s against fantasy, set score 6-3. Jaedong is 1-3 against fantasy in Proleague games. The evidence - and the way gamers talk about it - suggests there's a significant difference in there somewhere.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote:
I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
Flash? He killed everyone.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote:
I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
Yeah, Bisu sure wouldnt. I mean when he was kicked out from BOTH leagues by then mediocre zergs he only fell down to #7.
Nooo, Bisu would have stayed #2 or even got #1.
EDIT: Sorry Bisu only fell down to #5, not #7.
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On November 02 2009 02:51 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote:
I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk.
Calm lost to Roro in the ACE match who after that was beaten by savior's ZvZ . Those this meen Calm is bad at ZvZ and should be lower on the rank ? i don't think so ....
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I can agree with 2 of this month's placements: Flash and Fantasy. I'm usually all for giving the PR creator a generous amount of discretion, but... this time, the placements were generally off the mark IMO. There's plenty of names I'd have shuffled around- generally the same ones you claimed would be contested. JD at #2 is... just... wrong.
I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all.
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On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote:
I can agree with 2 of this month's placements: Flash and Fantasy. I'm usually all for giving the PR creator a generous amount of discretion, but... this time, the placements were generally off the mark IMO. There's plenty of names I'd have shuffled around- generally the same ones you claimed would be contested. JD at #2 is... just... wrong.
I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all.
Why? Because its skt biased?
On November 02 2009 03:00 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:51 MuffinDude wrote:On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote:
I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk. Calm lost to Roro in the ACE match who after that was beaten by savior's ZvZ . Those this meen Calm is bad at ZvZ and should be lower on the rank ? i don't think so ....
Calm only lost once and jaedong lost to hyuk and 815, and 815 hasn't done shit yet.
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It came out on the 1st!?!?!? WHOA
Flash fanboy??!?!? Maybe...
But, seriously though, the guy does look like he's been playing a different game entirely the last few weeks. I don't agree with #2... but the rest of it looks pretty good.
With the whole "imba" thing maybe a few of the Zergs should have been higher up? Not that I agree, but it does seem like the good Zergs are steamrolling these days. When I joined TL about a year ago it was all about the Dragons and how bad Protoss were broken. Id love to see Flash and company start a huge debate about Terran imba... Splash damage etc. That would be hilarious 
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Musoeun wrote:
JD lost to ZerO (whom he then beat in an ace match, so I consider the loss meaningless). I don't think you can call that meaningless, since Jaedong had to hope his team could take it to Ace (which they did). The fact that he got a second chance was not something in his control (unlike had he lost the first game in a Bo3 or something.He lost to Hyuk due to losing an extra overlord (and never looking for Hyuk's in time), which isn't so much a micro mistake as decision-making or something. The loss to 815 is the only "bad" loss. First of all, why does bad decision-making make for a "better" loss? Second of all, the loss to Hyuk had much more to do with micro over decision-making compared to the loss to 815, which I think was a 12-hatch vs. 9-pool. Did you even watch both games?We've seen nothing in leagues yet because he's seeded. He hasn't been playing ace matches because OZ is... building for the future. I really consider this month's results insufficient to say anything about Jaedong's real form, other than that it's not the level it was two-three months ago. But the PR has to be at least in large part based on this month's results, doesn't it?
That said I'd still put him at #4 or #5 myself rather than #2, but hey. Well, I agree with you there.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote:
I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
Here's the last time Flash had a mediocre month..
(Also 3-3 isn't a "terrible" month, especially when one of the losses (to ZerO) is essentially meaningless. It's an average month, it just looks really bad because it's Jaedong, and Jaedong is the Tyrant, the third winner of the Golden Mouse, yadda yadda yadda.)
EDIT: Why am I even defending JD's placement? I don't even like the guy, I don't think he actually deserves the #2 spot... I guess I'm just upset by people teeing off on the guy like 3-3 is the end of the world.
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I'm biased, but I would have put Zero onto the PR. Perversely, I think he got hurt by being seeded into MSL and only having to play two games in OSL since it meant he had less games this month. He did thrash FBH in OSL and went 5-3 in PL, with the 3 losses being to Leta (x2) and Jaedong. He's also been clearly established as Woongjin's ace, having played all 3 ace matches so far. I think that certainly puts him above Kal at least.
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As much as I like them, I think JD and Kal don't deserve those spots ><
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EPT
