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I skipped to the end of the thread after page 4.
If I had to read one more comment about "China is used to this lag but the rest of the world isn't" I'd probably blow my top.
I live in Australia. When I connect to iccup and type /ping, I consider 350 a good value for a return. Yet when I go and play games, with Lan Latency, there are rarely issues, and if there are they are quickly fixed by switching over to High Latency in Network Settings.
(You'll notice that 350 is a much higher number than 200 which someone quoted for China.)
Now, maybe Nony didn't want to play on High Latency because he is used to perfect conditions, and I don't necessarily fault him for that. But all you people talking about "two seconds of delay" and Chinese players just being used to playing in "b-net like lag" really need to get a clue, because I highly doubt it's like that.
Is it so hard to believe Nony was exaggerating?
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On March 22 2009 08:41 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 08:32 StarBrift wrote:
I understand both sides to this and don't think anyone acted unreasonably but you have to understand one thing about this all. Lag lowers the skill required to play the game, peroid. Sure you might argue that F91 is more skilled in laggy conditions than Nony. He probably is. But the fact that you're playing on lag just makes some strategies so much worse. The game becomes less about fast hands and reactions and more about strategy and planning. A one second delay might make any type of reaver opening worthless. Right then and there you several perfectly valid strategies not being usable because it's either too risky or to easy to counter. On the other hand mutas get harder to micro. But not really vs toss. The only muta micro you can't do vs toss in lag is the vs archon micro so the strategy is still fine basically.
I'm sure everyone allready thought about what I said but whatever side you're on in this discussion (hopefully both sides if you aren't a Nony fanboy or an angry Draco fan) you have to acknowledge the simple truth that delay is not only about who's more experienced in playing in it. It also lowers the very skillcap of the game. Try dodging storms with mutas in lag. -_-;
or a nice bunch of hydras ^^
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On March 22 2009 05:35 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 04:39 sungohan wrote:On March 22 2009 04:24 APurpleCow wrote:On March 22 2009 03:54 sungohan wrote:On March 21 2009 20:09 Sadistx wrote:On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote:
so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :| I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether? Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost. If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue. The lag is a two way street. Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win? This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close. The lag should not be a deciding factor. Are you for real? Of course it makes a huge difference if one of the party is used to playing under such conditions... I know from I played vs F91 how unbearable the lag can be (delay is more the correct term, since it did not really lag, just everything took around a second to respond) Now I would probably have lost vs him anyway since hes a way better player than me, but I know the delay made my chances to win drop to zero. Its virtually impossible to play with that kind of delay when your used to instant reaction from units. At the same time as I am struggling beyond words, F91 was microing his mutas perfectly picking off all my probes one by one and that made it crystal clear to me that he is perfectly used to playing under such condition, and therefor receiving an unfair advantage.
My point is, even without lag, Nony hardly stand a chance to win, just like you vs F91.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On March 22 2009 08:32 StarBrift wrote:
The game becomes less about fast hands and reactions and more about strategy and planning..
Most people would consider that a good thing.
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I think TL should just set the standard so both sides would shutup.
A) If TL says "we want completely lag free games and thus will only invite Americans with no lag", then fine, don't ask eastern european and chinese top players to play.
B) If TL wants the absolute top players in the world, they have to expect there will be lag problems. It doesn't make sense to blame F91 for China's slower internet infrastructure. I'm sure F91 would want to magically speed up the internet if he had the power.
I believe Nony acted a little snobbish in this situation. This is just a exhibition play, for fun, and for all of our enjoyment of high-level non-Korean starcraft. Frankly, it''s amazing and i'm very thankful that we even have the chance to witness top non-koreans play each other across the globe! It's not like this is for the MSL championship. Remember, he had a chance so be a progamer and quit.
To me, it is a joy to see top players from around the globe play each other, share strategies, and enjoy themselves. I frankly think Nony was upset that he lost the first set, and was looking for an excuse, and blamed the lag so he wouldn't hurt his own ego.
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I am only interested the future games, would F91 be 2-0 heading into the resume? or did Ash said F91 offered nony to start the series from 0-0 when they resume?
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On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
Sportsmanship? Think twice!
No matter what happened, whether we take one side's story or the other side's story, or the midpoint of the two, I don't see how we can skewer Nony for his alleged less than diplomatic statements, and not do the same to Ash. There is absolutely no reason to come post a note like that - if that's not a straight up flame/troll I don't know what is. I can think of a million better ways to raise the issues that Ash raised, and explain the story, without needing to convince us that Nony is bm - let public opinion decide that Nony was at fault if you're truly on the "right" side.
Anyways, I really hope everyone listens to the mods and simmers down, we'll get our liquibition in a week, and then we'll have something to amuse ourselves from the monotony of days without SC games.
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I've always found it weird that people complain about "Lan Latency" being turned on or not. Whenever I play games on iccup with or without the "Lan Latency" option being turned on it is the same ping, same speed. I can't seem to figure out how you can achieve the same speed that a LAN has over the internet. Does clicking this option speed up light?
It is very very unlikely that you can achieve the 100Gbit LAN speeds when playing ANY internet game. It would be ridiculous for Nony to expect local network speeds (like he's used to in the korean training houses) when playing any internet game.
Lag seems to be a popular scapegoat lately.
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If anyone, F91 is the one suffers the most from having lag because of the mutalisk jerking micro.
so when this resumes would F91 be up 2:0 or would i be 0:0 fresh start? i'm hoping for a fresh start.
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United States11390 Posts
F91 said he'd start it from 0-0.
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On March 22 2009 10:03 Harem wrote:
F91 said he'd start it from 0-0.
+ Sportsmanship
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On March 22 2009 09:54 bcjuggler wrote:
I've always found it weird that people complain about "Lan Latency" being turned on or not. Whenever I play games on iccup with or without the "Lan Latency" option being turned on it is the same ping, same speed. I can't seem to figure out how you can achieve the same speed that a LAN has over the internet. Does clicking this option speed up light?
It is very very unlikely that you can achieve the 100Gbit LAN speeds when playing ANY internet game. It would be ridiculous for Nony to expect local network speeds (like he's used to in the korean training houses) when playing any internet game.
Lag seems to be a popular scapegoat lately.
Bandwidth and latency are not mutually inclusive
And bnet was designed for dial up modem latency. Bnet requires the players to be synced so every action has noticeable delay compared to when you are playing offline (be it lan or single player)
a typical dial up modem has device latency of around 100 ms. That is, 2 33.6k modems can not achieve lower than 200 ms under the most optimal conditions, while ethernet can be as low as 0.3ms
So when you are using lan latency vs an opponent, all that matters is the stability of your connection, and your latency to that person. So while you can't ever achieve lan latency, you can get close to it with people within the same geographical area (outside routing and trafficking issues notwithstanding)
it doesn't "speed up light" but it uncaps the limitations bnet set forth to ensure smooth play vs 2 modem users so instead of having the game be extremely choppy, everything is sluggish.
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Even if there was delay which I somehow doubt it's for both players. Anyway I'm getting the feeling that alot of foreigners are backing up their lack of skill with excuses about delay and lag issues when they're playing chinese/korean players. In 90-95% of the cases I don't have any problems while playing chinese/korean players. That's why I respect players like Strelok/White-ra alot more they aren't arrogant and don't come with new excuses every time. I'll probably get flamed for this by some fanboys but these threads are getting a hype lately.
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I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
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This should restart 1-0 IMO.
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On March 22 2009 10:53 Hydrolisko wrote:
This should restart 1-0 IMO.
Yes, does the first or second game count?
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because F91 almost took out stork in a best out of 3 in an live event in front of many chinese, and that 3rd game was close. Just a little bit more impressive than nony's epic courage finalist match
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On March 22 2009 10:44 B1nary wrote:
I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
eh..
when did he show this?
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Baa?21242 Posts
On March 22 2009 10:44 B1nary wrote:
I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
Mainly because a lot of people here fickle. Remember when it was F91 v JF? Before that, about 1% of the TL population knew who F91 is, and the Liquibet statistics showed JF as the overwhelming favorite. Because JF was coming off 4 Liquibition wins, everyone just assumed he'd steamroll everyone. And then F91 came along and basically demolished JF, and now, 3 more Liquibitions later, TL is enamored with F91. If Nony wasn't Nony, people'd be predicting F91 4-0. Not many people here have an accurate gauge of the skill levels of many of the foreign pros relative to each other. People sway where the wind blows.
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EPT
