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On March 22 2009 15:51 SerpentFlame wrote:
It's not a flame/troll, it's just an argument; with support and etc to back it up. In fact, it could maybe be the truth (<---key word, maybe), in which case it's anything but a flame. It's the follow-up posts that ignite the flamewars.
It is a flame/troll the way its presented. There's no reason to frame the entire story around how Nony is unsportsmanlike. Why do you need to argue at all, if you're trying to post the truthful story behind what happened? And why disrespect Nony so badly while claiming he disrespected you... it seems like that would be counterproductive, and perhaps bordering on hypocritical.
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You know, if this lag thing doesn't work out, how about we just get a top Chinese player to play out this final Liquibition? In general TL.net audience isn't familiar with the Chinese scene, so this could be a nice way to get everyone familiar with the players. It really sucks that we'll never be able to have a lag-free liquibition between a top Chinese vs a top non-Chinese foreigner.
Anyway, just my personal thoughts.
And about F91 losing recently, losing to Legend is nothing to be ashamed of. The guy is just good. And he's pretty cool in that he commentating too, which is always good.
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On March 22 2009 18:13 baubo wrote:
You know, if this lag thing doesn't work out, how about we just get a top Chinese player to play out this final Liquibition? In general TL.net audience isn't familiar with the Chinese scene, so this could be a nice way to get everyone familiar with the players. It really sucks that we'll never be able to have a lag-free liquibition between a top Chinese vs a top non-Chinese foreigner.
Anyway, just my personal thoughts.
And about F91 losing recently, losing to Legend is nothing to be ashamed of. The guy is just good. And he's pretty cool in that he commentating too, which is always good.
Yeah well the other chinese players are at the same level as him (Lx,PJ,RushGoon,Super etc.) and are all very capable of beating him.
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Lx in top form is one level above them all imo.
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I like ash and very many chinese guys, but i can't accept that admins doing right at now allowing them playing in foreign events. They lag as hell... Only because of the respect to ash and his tryings to make game me vs F91 possible, i didn't do same as Nony...
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On March 22 2009 19:20 3D.Strelok wrote:
I like ash and very many chinese guys, but i can't accept that admins doing right at now allowing them playing in foreign events. They lag as hell... Only because of the respect to ash and his tryings to make game me vs F91 possible, i didn't do same as Nony...
Yes, the lag from chinese players can be difficult to handle for westerners. Hopefully NonY will defeat F91 in the liquibition and thus get the title back in the west.
It is a difficult situation for TL admins I'm sure, as they cannot simply take the title away from F91 without him either refusing to defend it or losing it in a match--to do so spits on the idea of a KOTH format.
P i a n o M a n
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On March 22 2009 19:20 3D.Strelok wrote:
I like ash and very many chinese guys, but i can't accept that admins doing right at now allowing them playing in foreign events. They lag as hell... Only because of the respect to ash and his tryings to make game me vs F91 possible, i didn't do same as Nony...
With this three top foreigners and the F91s latest opponents have voiced how extreme the situation can be (Idra to a lesser extent since he obviously had less lag). This should proove that there IS a problem with the lag. Whether or not the players acted wrong or right here is irrelevant. Everyone should care more the lag issues being resolved than flaming either player. I also believe that the TL staff is very focused on this very thing. Rather than discussing right and wrong they're interested in getting the game started in playable conditions. Kudos!
No one in their right mind can blame Nony because of the extreme situation and no one in their right mind can blame F91 because he is the victim of his country's infrastructure. Just drop the flaming, OK?
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On March 22 2009 09:04 sungohan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 05:35 Oystein wrote:On March 22 2009 04:39 sungohan wrote:On March 22 2009 04:24 APurpleCow wrote:On March 22 2009 03:54 sungohan wrote:On March 21 2009 20:09 Sadistx wrote:On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote:
so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :| I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether? Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost. If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue. The lag is a two way street. Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win? This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close. The lag should not be a deciding factor. Are you for real? Of course it makes a huge difference if one of the party is used to playing under such conditions... I know from I played vs F91 how unbearable the lag can be (delay is more the correct term, since it did not really lag, just everything took around a second to respond) Now I would probably have lost vs him anyway since hes a way better player than me, but I know the delay made my chances to win drop to zero. Its virtually impossible to play with that kind of delay when your used to instant reaction from units. At the same time as I am struggling beyond words, F91 was microing his mutas perfectly picking off all my probes one by one and that made it crystal clear to me that he is perfectly used to playing under such condition, and therefor receiving an unfair advantage. My point is, even without lag, Nony hardly stand a chance to win, just like you vs F91.
Maybe, maybe not, but I still wanna see them play the games at an even playing field aka lagfree games. I don`t care who wins and I don`t have a "side" in this case, all I am trying to say is that the lag that can and sometimes will occur with Chinese players are unacceptable to compete in if we want a fair and good match imo. All I am hoping for is some great matches to watch with both players performing their best.
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I have tested games with a slow and a fast connections before. What happens is that the slower connection one is able to maintain a smooth frame rate but the faster one will go fast but then every certain number of cycles there is a pause as it tries to wait for the slow client to catch up which makes it very difficult to play. So there would be this animation cycle of pause and play. It's really damn annoying and unplayable. I would suggest to try and test switching around with different hosts.
Plus, what's a Malaysian doing obsing a game that already has potential lag(stretching the connections even further than China)? I would suggest a retake. I want exhibition games which are exhibition games, where both sides are satisfied and do not have excuses to lose, not ones that are rushed to get a result. They're not fighting to win WW3, newbs.
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8748 Posts
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
I can see a lot of people flaming me for what I'm gonna say given the amount of nony fans there are in TL.net but I'm still going to write my point of view of this whole event. Please read carefully what I'm going to say instead of flaming me blindly
So this is what happened:
Over the past few days, I've been asking nony to do lag test with f91 just to ensure things go fine but everytime I msg him in MSN when he is available(available mode in msn) I get 0 responses but I still see him posting in TL.net at that particular time. The message usually goes like this " Hello nony! please let me know when you're back and tell me if you will be available to try out the connection with f91" Fine, I didn't mind about it because I was confident with the connection of china and USA due to the amount of games the fnatic players have played against americans in the past so I knew any problems can be easily solved (IF there is any).
After a few days of requesting, I finally get a reply from Nony on wednesday to try it out. Both of them tried it once in iCCup and nony said speed was fine then left the server. As soon as I see that I told plexa about the good condition and setup a date for nony to play against f91 which is Friday 20CET.
What does the organization of the lag test have to do with anything? You've proven that I'm on MSN when I'm actually not available to chat, something most people are guilty of and isn't a big deal at all. There was no scheduled time for the lag test. The very first time I saw your message and was available to do it, we did it. If you don't like the messiness of instant messages, then use normal messaging and schedule a time. But again, I don't see how this is relevant.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
On Friday, Nony showed up and went ahead to play against F91 (there wasn't any tl admins around so we had to deal things ourselves) After the first game , F91 was up 1-0 and then nony complained in channel that there was lag in F91 . I was kinda surprised when I saw it since they didn't have any problems 2 days ago so I asked F91 to reconnect. Five minutes later, the series continued with me joining as an obs. Surprisingly it was fine in iCCup low latency. A few minutes later, spikes happened every once in 2-3 minutes which I ended up leaving the game. Not long after, Nony came out from the game saying something like " fuck it i shouldn't have agreed to play chinese players in the first place. reschedule if you want" and left immediately which obviously showed that he has lost the second game as well. Dude this guy did not even bother to switch the latency to high/extra high and complained about lag? Whats more ridiculous is he told me that he is a professional player and he expects the games to be played in LAN speed. Everyone who plays iCCup regularly would know that lan high latency is definitely playable even for high level games. How many koreans in iCCup have you seen leaving your game because they cant play in low latency???
How were you surprised that there was lag in the first game? At the very start of the game you had to leave because of lag.
After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all. Interesting side note here: F91's last opponent has already sworn off playing Chinese players in online competitions whenever he can avoid it. But anyway, when I came out of the game, I explained the situation. Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone. I told you that I agreed to play the match if there was no lag and there was lag so I had to stop the match. I said if there was reason to believe that there wouldn't be lag at some other time under different conditions, then we could reschedule. Otherwise, we'll have to cancel. And I also said no TL.net admin was available at the time so we'll just have to wait to contact them for a decision. My last comment was about not playing Chinese players anymore, and then I left.
I was playing the SCL ladder when you called me out of that competition to come chat. You had nothing new to say. That's all I did was repeat myself at this point. This was completely on my own time that I was giving to you and you were wasting it. I re-explained that I was not going to play in lag. You started saying I was being emo and letting my emotions get into the situation. But that simply wasn't the case and when you started that, I just left abruptly. The fact is that I explained the situation perfectly fine, without disrespecting anyone, and you simply wouldn't accept it. As far as I can tell, you were simply trying to coerce me into playing in laggy conditions and I'm just not going to have it.
The LAN speed was switched to high latency and the "Waiting for players..." countdown got in the 20's. Yeah, we could keep elevating the latency until we're playing on old school b.net latency and it's still lagging, which are the conditions Strelok had to play in, but I'm not going to do that. For the record, my limit on the lag is this: LAN latency set to high, with minimal choppiness (drop screen shouldn't nearly come up). It was worse than that.
I don't think this is very relevant, but I do stand by the statement that the Korean pros would not play in anything they care about with high LAN latency or any amount of choppiness. I saw players make faces because of the tiniest lag in simple iCCup practice games. Setting to high is just ridiculous for them because there are 100's of people to play with for which low LAN latency will be perfectly fine.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
Hence, I'd like you guys to reconsider if you still think nony has the real sportmanship. I had a lot of respect for nony before this when he went to korea , heck I would even consider myself as a nony fan but sadly now after what has happened i think he's not as mannered as most people would consider him to be afterall. Draco vs Nony TSL 1 year ago anyone??
Ah, now I get to your next paragraph, and I find that your whole post is just an attack on my sportsmanship. Here I thought you were just trying to let the people know what happened. But this is just to attack my sportsmanship. Draco vs NonY TSL 1 year ago? How about Draco and NonY 4 months ago, practicing together and hanging out the whole WCG? I'll admit my mistakes, disrespect, and BM from the past, but when you want to judge who I currently am, you should not pick and choose. Start from the most recent times and paint the whole picture, keeping in mind that people change and mature.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
seriously how can you actually expect a LAN speed game connecting from America to China? You should've been more than happy provided that you're able to play in high latency game in iccup without lag. I can't imagine how he'd talk if he had to play f91 in a situation like how strelok played f91. (Chinese can barely have a perfect connection with Ukr unless they were to play in battle net speed) which is why the respect I have for strelok now is even more. This is what nony has expected and he said he'd refuse to play in any other possible environment because he is a professional player and he plays only in "professional" speed. uh wtf? Give f91 a flight ticket so they could play in an internet cafe maybe?
I seriously did not expect LAN latency from America to China. With that physical distance, it is possible, but China in particular has had some problems, but I've heard sometimes it works nonetheless. Still, I didn't expect it and that's why there was a lag test. We should have done a lag test longer than 10 seconds. That is really what has caused this whole mess. And then you bring up Strelok, which I honestly think is an example against you. Is that what you really want, what the people want, is for players to struggle through a laggy match, only to look like a much worse player in the broadcast, disappointing the fans, and then refusing to play Chinese players online again? Since you expected it to lag, and you definitely expected me to play through it, then I guess that this is what you expected to happen all along. No, I don't think that's what Liquibition ought to be.
I didn't call myself a professional player. I said I was acting professionally in response to your claims to the contrary. By that I meant I was explaining myself simply and clearly, since that was all that needed to be done at that time. For a match that I care about, I have a lag threshold. I don't recall saying the phrase 'professional speeds'. I did say that professional players wouldn't play in lag for something that matters (well, they could be forced by their coach, but that's a different matter).
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
1. Nony wants low latency speed in iCCup with 0 lag 0 spike 0 latency.
2. Nony refuses to play on high latency in iCCup even if there is no lag because he thinks as a professional player, the difference of response time like 0.005 sec?is unplayable.
3. Nony refuses to play in such situation unless the TL admins force him to do so.
4. Nony refused to tolerate.
1. Untrue. I never said that. I never implied that.
2. I will and did play on high latency. The difference is much greater than .005, btw.
3. This is an interesting one. You say it as a point against me, but it seems to me that it's the natural order of things. The TL.net admins understood that I didn't want to play in lag, thus the lag test. So when they hear that it's laggy, they probably wouldn't make me play, to respect my wishes and for the quality of the match. But since they already announced the match and hyped it, they might want to force the match to be played so as to not disappoint the fans. Since I care about TL.net and I care about the viewers, I said that I'd be willing to play if that's what the admins think is best.
4. Yeah, I have to draw the line somewhere. I refuse to tolerate things that have crossed that line, such as the lag and you. I think this speaks toward my character.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
There may be some who lagged with the chinese or some who don't. In this case, Nony had the opportunity to play in a lag free game if he was kind enough to do a f10 o n h o but he refused to do so. I'm sure most of you may automatically assume nony being a victim for this lag but honestly chinese connections aren't as stable as most of the connections you guys tend to have so you cant expect them to provide you a completely iCCup LL lag free game everytime you play.
In most of the cases, China - USA,Canada,Spain + some of the countries usually work FINE unless they have a bad day.
Again with the high latency. We did high latency. I guess this is just a fact that you got wrong and perhaps now that you know, it's enough to change your mind on the whole thing. I don't know.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote:
Sportsmanship? Think twice!
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8748 Posts
I'd also like to note that people shouldn't flame Ash. You can all easily see here we have a disagreement but he has not been bad at all. I think it all just centers around how much lag I should have to play in and whether or not I should be able to cancel a match due to lag. We had much different opinions on those things going in. Attacks on sportsmanship, flames, etc, aren't really needed. The purpose of the news post, I think, is just to inform people with 100% transparency.
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TY for sharing your side of the picture NonY. I look forward to next week where we'll hopefully have a great match!
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On March 22 2009 23:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I told you that I agreed to play the match if there was no lag and there was lag so I had to stop the match. I said if there was reason to believe that there wouldn't be lag at some other time under different conditions, then we could reschedule. Otherwise, we'll have to cancel.
Since getting no lag is near impossible. This is cancel for good?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
We will see what happens this week
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wow.... Ash is hard to believe but still... coming from NonY?
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Good to finally hear Nony's side.
Here's hoping to them finding a way around the lag for some great matches. 
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On March 22 2009 23:28 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 23:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I told you that I agreed to play the match if there was no lag and there was lag so I had to stop the match. I said if there was reason to believe that there wouldn't be lag at some other time under different conditions, then we could reschedule. Otherwise, we'll have to cancel.
Since getting no lag is near impossible. This is cancel for good?
I guess there will be no matches. Lag may be inevitable for the next 15 years. So what do you want?
For the greater good of non-Korean starcraft, we all have to accept some lag issues.
The alternative is to say absolutely no matches with Chinese players, no matter how good they are.
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Ok Look nony, I didn't want to continue the flame here butI can't believe how hard you tried to twist the truth of what really happened. It's either you have a really short memories or you're really good at lying.
No schedule time for the lag test? First time of you noticing my message and you did it?
2. I was surprised with the lag of the first game because in my country different ip domain would provide different speed of connection so I knew I was the one lagging the game which why I left immediately and reconnected to get a better ip. Anyone who lives in Malaysia would understand this.
3.
Picture shows thousands of words so I'm not gonna talk about how you actually left the server immediately after game 2. The screenshot is enough proof to show that you didn't mention a thing about what you posted except for some bad language and rescheduling possibility.
I really didn't want to continue this flame war or whatever you call it which is why I stopped posting earlier after that but you're such a mask man in front of the community that I really cannot stand it anymore. You and I both know that your posts are so ridiculously full of lies. I'm sorry but you just took away the last few of respect I had for you now.
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I like idra's 1st post here and nony's point of view too
and wanted to answer to "How many koreans in iCCup have you seen leaving your game because they cant play in low latency??? "... From my experience - a lot.
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