Update: 24/03/09 A 30 minute lag test was played yesterday and there were no complaints from either side. Series will go on as planned. Yauyuan uploaded replay of game 2 here There are times when things just never go the way they do no matter how hard you try to ensure things go smoothly. Indeed, this week was one of those times. After last episode's lag issues between Strelok and F91, we took every precaution possible between F91 and Nony to ensure that there would be no lag. The two tested their connections with each other earlier on in the week and there was no lag, thus everyone thought things would run smoothly today.
Well, it turns out that even with testing Chinese Internet can't be consistently good. Nony and F91 tried to play out the series but it was aborted prematurely due to lag issues. Here is what Nony had to say about the series
Liquid`NonY wrote: lag is too bad. he nearly dropped in first game with high latency. 2nd game i move shuttle before scourge hits, no response in time. i cast storm on mutas, no storm before death. i tell shuttle to pick up reaver, too late. all his moves are just send units in to attack and hope i dont respond fast enough. i cant stand being fast enough and having it not pay off, so reschedule.
Here is what F91's manager, Ash, had to say;
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: I can see a lot of people flaming me for what I'm gonna say given the amount of nony fans there are in TL.net but I'm still going to write my point of view of this whole event. Please read carefully what I'm going to say instead of flaming me blindly
So this is what happened:
Over the past few days, I've been asking nony to do lag test with f91 just to ensure things go fine but everytime I msg him in MSN when he is available(available mode in msn) I get 0 responses but I still see him posting in TL.net at that particular time. The message usually goes like this " Hello nony! please let me know when you're back and tell me if you will be available to try out the connection with f91" Fine, I didn't mind about it because I was confident with the connection of china and USA due to the amount of games the fnatic players have played against americans in the past so I knew any problems can be easily solved (IF there is any).
After a few days of requesting, I finally get a reply from Nony on wednesday to try it out. Both of them tried it once in iCCup and nony said speed was fine then left the server. As soon as I see that I told plexa about the good condition and setup a date for nony to play against f91 which is Friday 20CET.
On Friday, Nony showed up and went ahead to play against F91 (there wasn't any tl admins around so we had to deal things ourselves) After the first game , F91 was up 1-0 and then nony complained in channel that there was lag in F91 . I was kinda surprised when I saw it since they didn't have any problems 2 days ago so I asked F91 to reconnect. Five minutes later, the series continued with me joining as an obs. Surprisingly it was fine in iCCup low latency. A few minutes later, spikes happened every once in 2-3 minutes which I ended up leaving the game. Not long after, Nony came out from the game saying something like " fuck it i shouldn't have agreed to play chinese players in the first place. reschedule if you want" and left immediately which obviously showed that he has lost the second game as well. Dude this guy did not even bother to switch the latency to high/extra high and complained about lag? Whats more ridiculous is he told me that he is a professional player and he expects the games to be played in LAN speed. Everyone who plays iCCup regularly would know that lan high latency is definitely playable even for high level games. How many koreans in iCCup have you seen leaving your game because they cant play in low latency???
Hence, I'd like you guys to reconsider if you still think nony has the real sportmanship. I had a lot of respect for nony before this when he went to korea , heck I would even consider myself as a nony fan but sadly now after what has happened i think he's not as mannered as most people would consider him to be afterall. Draco vs Nony TSL 1 year ago anyone??
seriously how can you actually expect a LAN speed game connecting from America to China? You should've been more than happy provided that you're able to play in high latency game in iccup without lag. I can't imagine how he'd talk if he had to play f91 in a situation like how strelok played f91. (Chinese can barely have a perfect connection with Ukr unless they were to play in battle net speed) which is why the respect I have for strelok now is even more. This is what nony has expected and he said he'd refuse to play in any other possible environment because he is a professional player and he plays only in "professional" speed. uh wtf? Give f91 a flight ticket so they could play in an internet cafe maybe?
1. Nony wants low latency speed in iCCup with 0 lag 0 spike 0 latency. 2. Nony refuses to play on high latency in iCCup even if there is no lag because he thinks as a professional player, the difference of response time like 0.005 sec?is unplayable. 3. Nony refuses to play in such situation unless the TL admins force him to do so. 4. Nony refused to tolerate.
There may be some who lagged with the chinese or some who don't. In this case, Nony had the opportunity to play in a lag free game if he was kind enough to do a f10 o n h o but he refused to do so. I'm sure most of you may automatically assume nony being a victim for this lag but honestly chinese connections aren't as stable as most of the connections you guys tend to have so you cant expect them to provide you a completely iCCup LL lag free game everytime you play.
In most of the cases, China - USA,Canada,Spain + some of the countries usually work FINE unless they have a bad day.
Sportsmanship? Think twice!
Given the laggy conditions, TeamLiquid thought that it would be best if the series was played with minimal lag to ensure the highest quality of games possible. Thus, we have decided to delay the series a week to give the players plenty of opportunities to play and hopefully on one of those days there will be no lag. In the mean time we will bring you some interviews with the players and staff analysis of the series.
The series will air at 2pm EST on Sunday next week. TeamLiquid apologizes for the delay, and hopes that we haven't caused significant trouble for anyone.
My understanding of the situation is that the lag problems vary from day to day, hour to hour, for some really weird reason. We've also got R1CH on the case, so we're doing everything in our power to solve the lag problem.
I had the misfortune of playing F91 in a gosucup, and if its anything remotely like how that was I can feel Nony`s pain... However those same games also amazed me. Watching F91 have perfect micro in almost a second delay was one of the sickest things I have ever seen.
On March 21 2009 19:29 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Lol Idra would have whined about lag even if it wouldn't have lagged. <3 Nony.
um. have you considered that since the OP mentioned sick lag due to Chinese internet that maybe IdrA lagged against F91
IdrA mentioned that it wasn't the completely lag-free environment he's accustomed to in Korean practice houses, but there wasn't any sort of significant lag. Definitely not the unplayable situation Nony alludes to.
Korean fiberoptic infrastructure is far beyond that of America.
I can see a lot of people flaming me for what I'm gonna say given the amount of nony fans there are in TL.net but I'm still going to write my point of view of this whole event. Please read carefully what I'm going to say instead of flaming me blindly
So this is what happened:
Over the past few days, I've been asking nony to do lag test with f91 just to ensure things go fine but everytime I msg him in MSN when he is available(available mode in msn) I get 0 responses but I still see him posting in TL.net at that particular time. The message usually goes like this " Hello nony! please let me know when you're back and tell me if you will be available to try out the connection with f91" Fine, I didn't mind about it because I was confident with the connection of china and USA due to the amount of games the fnatic players have played against americans in the past so I knew any problems can be easily solved (IF there is any).
After a few days of requesting, I finally get a reply from Nony on wednesday to try it out. Both of them tried it once in iCCup and nony said speed was fine then left the server. As soon as I see that I told plexa about the good condition and setup a date for nony to play against f91 which is Friday 20CET.
On Friday, Nony showed up and went ahead to play against F91 (there wasn't any tl admins around so we had to deal things ourselves) After the first game , F91 was up 1-0 and then nony complained in channel that there was lag in F91 . I was kinda surprised when I saw it since they didn't have any problems 2 days ago so I asked F91 to reconnect. Five minutes later, the series continued with me joining as an obs. Surprisingly it was fine in iCCup low latency. A few minutes later, spikes happened every once in 2-3 minutes which I ended up leaving the game. Not long after, Nony came out from the game saying something like " fuck it i shouldn't have agreed to play chinese players in the first place. reschedule if you want" and left immediately which obviously showed that he has lost the second game as well. Dude this guy did not even bother to switch the latency to high/extra high and complained about lag? Whats more ridiculous is he told me that he is a professional player and he expects the games to be played in LAN speed. Everyone who plays iCCup regularly would know that lan high latency is definitely playable even for high level games. How many koreans in iCCup have you seen leaving your game because they cant play in low latency???
Hence, I'd like you guys to reconsider if you still think nony has the real sportmanship. I had a lot of respect for nony before this when he went to korea , heck I would even consider myself as a nony fan but sadly now after what has happened i think he's not as mannered as most people would consider him to be afterall. Draco vs Nony TSL 1 year ago anyone??
seriously how can you actually expect a LAN speed game connecting from America to China? You should've been more than happy provided that you're able to play in high latency game in iccup without lag. I can't imagine how he'd talk if he had to play f91 in a situation like how strelok played f91. (Chinese can barely have a perfect connection with Ukr unless they were to play in battle net speed) which is why the respect I have for strelok now is even more. This is what nony has expected and he said he'd refuse to play in any other possible environment because he is a professional player and he plays only in "professional" speed. uh wtf? Give f91 a flight ticket so they could play in an internet cafe maybe?
1. Nony wants low latency speed in iCCup with 0 lag 0 spike 0 latency. 2. Nony refuses to play on high latency in iCCup even if there is no lag because he thinks as a professional player, the difference of response time like 0.005 sec?is unplayable. 3. Nony refuses to play in such situation unless the TL admins force him to do so. 4. Nony refused to tolerate.
There may be some who lagged with the chinese or some who don't. In this case, Nony had the opportunity to play in a lag free game if he was kind enough to do a f10 o n h o but he refused to do so. I'm sure most of you may automatically assume nony being a victim for this lag but honestly chinese connections aren't as stable as most of the connections you guys tend to have so you cant expect them to provide you a completely iCCup LL lag free game everytime you play.
In most of the cases, China - USA,Canada,Spain + some of the countries usually work FINE unless they have a bad day.
so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
On March 21 2009 19:29 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Lol Idra would have whined about lag even if it wouldn't have lagged. <3 Nony.
um. have you considered that since the OP mentioned sick lag due to Chinese internet that maybe IdrA lagged against F91
IdrA mentioned that it wasn't the completely lag-free environment he's accustomed to in Korean practice houses, but there wasn't any sort of significant lag. Definitely not the unplayable situation Nony alludes to.
this has been brought up before by people other than you, and IdrA disagreed with their analysis of the lag. if the progamer who's been living in Korea for what, more than 6 months, playing in a completely lag-free environment every day, has trouble playing against a Chinese player because of lag, then it looks like you're contradicting yourself. I'd say that is significant lag.
On March 21 2009 19:53 Oystein wrote: I had the misfortune of playing F91 in a gosucup, and if its anything remotely like how that was I can feel Nony`s pain... However those same games also amazed me. Watching F91 have perfect micro in almost a second delay was one of the sickest things I have ever seen.
Hahah, for a while I was super in to the bounds and learned to time my clicks with the lat. I found that once I got that down it was easier than learning to click right after the explosion. Earlier today I played an icc game (both had AH, but no LL in game D=) and I found that I micro'd muta's really well in the lat. Props to bounding.
Unfortunate delay, I was really looking forward to this
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
On March 21 2009 19:29 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Lol Idra would have whined about lag even if it wouldn't have lagged. <3 Nony.
um. have you considered that since the OP mentioned sick lag due to Chinese internet that maybe IdrA lagged against F91
IdrA mentioned that it wasn't the completely lag-free environment he's accustomed to in Korean practice houses, but there wasn't any sort of significant lag. Definitely not the unplayable situation Nony alludes to.
this has been brought up before by people other than you, and IdrA disagreed with their analysis of the lag. if the progamer who's been living in Korea for what, more than 6 months, playing in a completely lag-free environment every day, has trouble playing against a Chinese player because of lag, then it looks like you're contradicting yourself. I'd say that is significant lag.
That's even more ridiculous, Idra had TL-Mani in his games against F91 playing in LL. IdrA kicked him without saying a word in the lobby and Mani wasn't even aware of the lag. Significant lag? Look at the amount of games chinese are able to play with koreans in iCCup and think again.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
So you think 99% of the top foreigners would be able to provide nony his ideal speed in tournaments? Feel free to prove it.
I wouldn't come up with my opinion if Strelok was the one complaining about lag against f91 because I sincerely think F91's connection was at fault at that. Thumbs up to strelok for that. But god, in this case ? No way!
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
What? You JUST made a 3 or 4 paragraph post detailing why you thought Nony is not a good sport, and you even summed it up with bullet points and a conclusion saying "Sportsmanship? Think twice!". A real sportsman wants to play in an ideal environment. It's great that Strelok agreed to play in lag, that's good for him. I like Strelok, he is a respectable guy. But I can also respect the decision of Nony not to play in that lag because it's unbearable for him, you should be able to too. Jeez, he's not obligated to play against a Chinese player if he perceives the lag to be terrible.
On March 21 2009 20:14 Ash wrote: That's even more ridiculous, Idra had TL-Mani in his games against F91 playing in LL. IdrA kicked him without saying a word in the lobby and Mani wasn't even aware of the lag. Significant lag? Look at the amount of games chinese are able to play with koreans and think again.
Of course Mani didn't notice the lag. This is what I meant by "brought up by people other than you". If IdrA, who has been playing on lan latency for 6+ months, notices lag, and Manifesto, who has only ever played SC on battle.net and iccup, doesn't notice the lag, where is the surprise? The difference is in the perception. Once again, just because Chinese and Koreans CAN play games doesn't mean that an American or a Korean person is OBLIGATED to play those games against Chinese players.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
I know I quit every single laddergame that don`t have LL, and every time I forget to launch with AH the Koreans who I arrange games with refuse to play. Sure maybe Nony could have handled this better (I don`t know since I wasnt there and we only have your side of the story), but the Chinese lag is world famous and you can`t really expect others to suffer in it when its at its worst, and its clearly the Chinese connections fault.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
What? You JUST made a 3 or 4 paragraph post detailing why you thought Nony is not a good sport, and you even summed it up with bullet points and a conclusion saying "Sportsmanship? Think twice!". A real sportsman wants to play in an ideal environment. It's great that Strelok agreed to play in lag, that's good for him. I like Strelok, he is a respectable guy. But I can also respect the decision of Nony not to play in that lag because it's unbearable for him, you should be able to too. Jeez, he's not obligated to play against a Chinese player if he perceives the lag to be terrible.
On March 21 2009 20:14 Ash wrote: That's even more ridiculous, Idra had TL-Mani in his games against F91 playing in LL. IdrA kicked him without saying a word in the lobby and Mani wasn't even aware of the lag. Significant lag? Look at the amount of games chinese are able to play with koreans and think again.
Of course Mani didn't notice the lag. This is what I meant by "brought up by people other than you". If IdrA, who has been playing on lan latency for 6+ months, notices lag, and Manifesto, who has only ever played SC on battle.net and iccup, doesn't notice the lag, where is the surprise? The difference is in the perception. Once again, just because Chinese and Koreans CAN play games doesn't mean that an American or a Korean person is OBLIGATED to play those games against Chinese players.
My one and only argument would be do you seriously think 99% of the top foreigners will provide the so-called lag free games to these players(IdrA , Nony)? What's going to happen to our community if LAN latency wasnt implemented in the first place? Will the community die just because these players cant play in LAN speed? Note: F91 was even able to provide a close to lan speed game which nony refused to play in. This is an online series not a lan event FYI
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
I know I quit every single laddergame that don`t have LL, and every time I forget to launch with AH the Koreans who I arrange games with refuse to play. Sure maybe Nony could have handled this better (I don`t know since I wasnt there and we only have your side of the story), but the Chinese lag is world famous and you can`t really expect others to suffer in it when its at its worst, and its clearly the Chinese connections fault.
Koreans refusing to play in a non lan latency game is extremely understandable. But this wasn't the case in the first place. Of course the chinese lag is world famous because that's an impression chinese has given to the world due to their past terrible connections. The connections have improved significantly since then and frankly speaking there are more people who have no problems playing the chinese than those with problems. I wouldn't say they have a godly internet connection now but it is defitenily better than you guys assume it to be. BTW, I meant LL as in Low latency instead of LAN latency
No suprise for me.... since nony didnt even bother to gg or something vs draco... so i definetly believe Ash that it was like that... Nony its not so cool as everybody sees him...
and definetly when i see that nony lost first game... will be also replay of this game? because its not gonna be count in liquitbition... so something like preview for it?
I play on laggy connections all the time for fun (I live in germany), but I would never do it with money on the line either so I can't say I blame NonY at all. Also, when I talked to him at the WCG he seemed plenty polite so I'm sure he was just getting frustrated that he couldn't play his best. I don't want to watch the games unless I know the players are on an equal playing field, so it's unfair to the players and the viewers. If it's impossible to have a lag free environment without doing only LAN games, then so be it, I'll wait until these players can be in the same room (even if that never happens). I'd rather watch nothing than an unfair fight.
On March 21 2009 20:25 stevethemacguy wrote: I play on laggy connections all the time for fun (I live in germany), but I would never do it with money on the line either so I can't say I blame NonY at all. Also, when I talked to him at the WCG he seemed plenty polite so I'm sure he was just getting frustrated that he couldn't play his best. I don't want to watch the games unless I know the players are on an equal playing field, so it's unfair to the players and the viewers. If it's impossible to have a lag free environment without doing only LAN games, then so be it, I'll wait until these players can be in the same room (even if that never happens). I'd rather watch nothing than an unfair fight.
isnt that lag same for both? yes u can counter that chinese are use to lag... but as ash said latency was like on original battle.net ... so something what we were playing online tournament for how long? 6 or 8 years?...
On March 21 2009 20:25 stevethemacguy wrote: I play on laggy connections all the time for fun (I live in germany), but I would never do it with money on the line either so I can't say I blame NonY at all. Also, when I talked to him at the WCG he seemed plenty polite so I'm sure he was just getting frustrated that he couldn't play his best. I don't want to watch the games unless I know the players are on an equal playing field, so it's unfair to the players and the viewers. If it's impossible to have a lag free environment without doing only LAN games, then so be it, I'll wait until these players can be in the same room (even if that never happens). I'd rather watch nothing than an unfair fight.
Then maybe Nony shouldn't have agreed for the showmatch in the first place? I don't think Nony was stupid enough to accept the invitation assuming that he'd be playing in a completely LL lag free game.
On March 21 2009 20:25 stevethemacguy wrote: I play on laggy connections all the time for fun (I live in germany), but I would never do it with money on the line either so I can't say I blame NonY at all. Also, when I talked to him at the WCG he seemed plenty polite so I'm sure he was just getting frustrated that he couldn't play his best. I don't want to watch the games unless I know the players are on an equal playing field, so it's unfair to the players and the viewers. If it's impossible to have a lag free environment without doing only LAN games, then so be it, I'll wait until these players can be in the same room (even if that never happens). I'd rather watch nothing than an unfair fight.
isnt that lag same for both? yes u can counter that chinese are use to lag... but as ash said latency was like on original battle.net ... so something what we were playing online tournament for how long? 6 or 8 years?...
That wasn't the case. Ironically, they were able to play in a much better environment compared to the battle net speed. It's High Latency in iCCup and you guys need to play iccup regularly if you want to know what I am talking about
so its even better that battle.net... so where is the problem? that he is used to lan latency?? did he really expect latency vs Chinese player like on lan... also its good to say that Nony is the chalenger if he was defender so ok i would accept his argument that chinese should play this...
You seem hell-bent on ruining his reputation and everyone's view of him.
You should have just posted your first message and left it at that. You lost all weight in that message in my eyes because clearly you have some personal problem with him that's illustrated in your repeated posting with every post being an insult to nony.
Get off the high horse and get over whatever it is you're butthurt about, people aren't going to listen to a troll like you.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
What? You JUST made a 3 or 4 paragraph post detailing why you thought Nony is not a good sport, and you even summed it up with bullet points and a conclusion saying "Sportsmanship? Think twice!". A real sportsman wants to play in an ideal environment. It's great that Strelok agreed to play in lag, that's good for him. I like Strelok, he is a respectable guy. But I can also respect the decision of Nony not to play in that lag because it's unbearable for him, you should be able to too. Jeez, he's not obligated to play against a Chinese player if he perceives the lag to be terrible.
On March 21 2009 20:14 Ash wrote: That's even more ridiculous, Idra had TL-Mani in his games against F91 playing in LL. IdrA kicked him without saying a word in the lobby and Mani wasn't even aware of the lag. Significant lag? Look at the amount of games chinese are able to play with koreans and think again.
Of course Mani didn't notice the lag. This is what I meant by "brought up by people other than you". If IdrA, who has been playing on lan latency for 6+ months, notices lag, and Manifesto, who has only ever played SC on battle.net and iccup, doesn't notice the lag, where is the surprise? The difference is in the perception. Once again, just because Chinese and Koreans CAN play games doesn't mean that an American or a Korean person is OBLIGATED to play those games against Chinese players.
My one and only argument would be do you seriously think 99% of the top foreigners will provide the so-called lag free games to these players(IdrA , Nony)? What's going to happen to our community if LAN latency wasnt implemented in the first place? Will the community die just because these players cant play in LAN speed? Note: F91 was even able to provide a close to lan speed game which nony refused to play in. This is an online series not a lan event FYI
actually im usually fine on iccup launcher low lat with europeans and americans, its just with eastern europeans and chinese that generally need high or extra high, and even then theres lag spikes (although not always, ive had fine games on low lat with chinese on iccup. dunno)
really no ones at fault here. people have different standards, and its very hard to play in conditions you arent used to. how happy do you think f91 would be about playing a tournament in bnet extra high latency? well for someone used to lan play all day every day laggy high lat games are just as bad.
every time this issue comes up you defend the chinese and blame the foreigners, but is it really a coincidence that every match involving chinese players has lag issues? obviously its beyond your control but stop acting like it isnt a problem.
and it wouldnt be a problem if lan speed was never implemented because everyone would be used to high lat. the problem here is playing in different conditions. when it takes your units a half second to respond to your clicks every single game, you get used to that. when they respond instantly, you get used to that. when something throws that off all of your timing in micro goes out the window. f91 is used to playing in that delay, nony isnt. if nony were used to it there would be no problem. fact is you cant expect everyone else to play at sub-optimal settings to compensate for your connection problems.
but idra... i dont want to say that u are making excuse for u... U knew before that game that you gonna play vs chinese guy... so u were aware of lag issue.. same as nony... so if u have problem with this u should play vs him... and dont play one game like nony and say this sucks and leave...
im not making excuses. i never have, our games were actually pretty good lag wise once i kicked mani
im just defending nony and the situation with chinese players and lag in general.
and the argument that 'you accepted to play a chinese player so you're ok with lag' is bullshit. are foreigners just not allowed to play anything chinese players choose to enter if they dont want to deal with lag? nony did not agree to play a chinese player. he agreed to play liquibition.
On March 21 2009 21:08 kulik- wrote: but idra... i dont want to say that u are making excuse for u... U knew before that game that you gonna play vs chinese guy... so u were aware of lag issue.. same as nony... so if u have problem with this u should play vs him... and dont play one game like nony and say this sucks and leave...
Sorry but that's just not true. Read the text, the lagtest was fine, only the games that were played 2 days later had lag issues.
i didnt said that u are making excuse i just try say... that everyone knows taht chinese have lag problem so if is problem for u dont play vs them... nobody force u to play again F91... u saw chance of playing this event... to make some money... u face it quite well... u played and lost ok... but nony? he knew that there is gonna be lag problem and according to ash it was so big... what did he expected? that its gonna be like in estro house on lan??
On March 21 2009 20:20 Ash wrote: My one and only argument would be do you seriously think 99% of the top foreigners will provide the so-called lag free games to these players(IdrA , Nony)? What's going to happen to our community if LAN latency wasnt implemented in the first place? Will the community die just because these players cant play in LAN speed? Note: F91 was even able to provide a close to lan speed game which nony refused to play in. This is an online series not a lan event FYI
No, but 99% of top foreigners outside of China don't lag as much as the ones in China.
On March 21 2009 20:24 ondik wrote: Good luck fighting with biased mills Ash
The irony. Chinese players can do it!!! So can the other foreigners!! :eyeroll:
On March 21 2009 21:16 kulik- wrote: i didnt said that u are making excuse i just try say... that everyone knows taht chinese have lag problem so if is problem for u dont play vs them... nobody force u to play again F91... u saw chance of playing this event... to make some money... u face it quite well... u played and lost ok... but nony? he knew that there is gonna be lag problem and according to ash it was so big... what did he expected? that its gonna be like in estro house on lan??
actually he had reason to believe there wouldnt be a lag problem because of the lag test. when he plays and sees that it lags he leaves. i dont see anything wrong with that.
whereas i just played it out and then everyone jumped on my ass afterwards saying i was lying about the lag to downplay my loss.
that aside, he did not agree to play in lag. he agreed to play liquibition. are foreigners not allowed to play in any event chinese choose to play if they dont want to deal with lag?
I don't see why everyone is quick to believe ash and not nony... it's not like he just quit and said "fuck lag"... he gave specific examples of what failed to happen, and I'm sure that if we had a fpvod of nony, it would show that he really did the things he claimed and his units failed to respond, and that would be the most frustrating thing on earth to me and I only play at a D level - and nony has perfected these timings with 100 times more playing time than me, so it'd be even harder to adjust.
Saying that everyone can play in lag equally well is bullshit. Just like the casters explained during the strelok vs f91 series, lag affects different sides of every matchup differently. Even in a mirror matches this is true... what if a PvP game was 2 gate robo versus 4 gate - the person with the reaver would probably be at a disadvantage (or much less of an advantage) because they have far more micro intensive work to do. While you could choose your strategies to account for this fact, it can seriously change or even break the delicate balancing of different strategies at high levels of the game.
That being said, I hope the games get played soon, and I hope Ash stops responding to every single post in this thread and just waits for the Liquibition to make its own statement. We know you want to support your player, and you may have some idea of what sportmanship is, but I think that being classy is a big part of sportsmanship (even in sports as brutal as American Football), and your posts have not been.
why would someone turn down playing liquibition? its a pretty prestigious thing just to be asked to play in it. the theme with liquibition is more closely linked to "honour" rather than "monetary winnings".
nony is allegedly a very mannered person. if a person is unmannered about lag they generally wait till after they have lost to fully lay the blame upon lag.
On March 21 2009 21:32 nebffa wrote: why would someone turn down playing liquibition?
I dunno, maybe the reasons already mentioned in the prior 3 pages of the thread and the original post? I love TL and the people who work for it, but Liquibition is just another tournament with a money prize.
soudns like nony was getting owned LOLLL jk honestly hope this lag works out i heard f91 has lag issues all the time. You'd think one of his sponsors would give him some proxy to allow good internet because thats just rediculous
awww, was really wanting to watch this today. I'd rather watch it when both players can give it their all though. So hopefully they'll get it played more or less lagfree^^
because i dont like nony... it started when he didnt gg vs draco... and go on in his fp vods where he imo disrespected his oponent not by his play style but what he was saying... ok he wanted to be funny but that did also the mistrzzzz... and most of u would say that he is bm.. for me mistrzzz is more manner than nony because mistrzz is not trying to be manner and just make fun of everyone...
in regards to observers not noticing lag, of course they arent going to. LL seems to feel like extra high latency even with it on low latency in game. most of the time someone is lagging, the game might look smooth, but its still taking two seconds for units to move. I've had times on iccup on extra high lat where I've been able to 1a2a3a4a5a6a twice and still have to wait a second for my army to start moving, and I'm by no means fast on the keyboard.
To an observer its going to look like the player was just slow in acting, while the player he's thinking something along the lines of 'WHAT THE FUCK I MOVED MY SHUTTLE WHAT THE FUCK WAS IT DOING' F91 probably plays a very large portion of his games with two seconds of delay, most people aren't used to it. not to discount his skill but I think the liquibitions with him involved so far would have been MUCH closer if he didn't lag.
This has nothing to do with the Nony vs F91 series fwiw. Nony has agreed to play out the rest of the series and a little extra rivalry isn't going to hurt Liquibition. Some thoughts on lag to consider:
Of course Mani didn't notice the lag. This is what I meant by "brought up by people other than you". If IdrA, who has been playing on lan latency for 6+ months, notices lag, and Manifesto, who has only ever played SC on battle.net and iccup, doesn't notice the lag, where is the surprise? The difference is in the perception. Once again, just because Chinese and Koreans CAN play games doesn't mean that an American or a Korean person is OBLIGATED to play those games against Chinese players.
I think that if you are playing online against across continent opponents any lag not noticeable by an observer should be fine to play with, despite not being perfect. It is more like a delay than lag and delay is expected, but lag (the constant small interruptions of the game) is really bad. Idra noticed a delay and asking an observer to leave is always a possibility.
Idra is holding up to really high standards because of his offline experience. It is understandable that it bothers him. However in my opinion if a non noticeable lag for observers (and opponent btw) bothers a player I think he is unsuited for playing leagues and tournaments online. Though looking to improve the delay with proxies and asking observers to leave to make the connection as good as possible is a given. Give a little take a little the conditions aren't going to be perfect. The games of Idra vs F91 might have improved after Mani left but even then the small delay could have stayed and it shouldn't have been a big deal for an online series.
The difference is indeed perception, if you are used to playing in an offline environment and know that everyone else isn't you need to perceive things not from your own perspective but from one where you know everyone else isn't going to mind playing with a small delay so neither should you. If you want to play online tournaments delay is going to be a part of this. Real lag is inexcusable, but there is a clear difference.
To an observer its going to look like the player was just slow in acting, while the player he's thinking something along the lines of 'WHAT THE FUCK I MOVED MY SHUTTLE WHAT THE FUCK WAS IT DOING' F91 probably plays a very large portion of his games with two seconds of delay, most people aren't used to it. not to discount his skill but I think the liquibitions with him involved so far would have been MUCH closer if he didn't lag.
He didn't 'lag' vs Idra even Idra says it was fine so what are you talking about? The only times I've had a delay as large as 2s is when the actual game was moving in spikes. In a game seemingly perfect I have never seen a delay that large.
On March 21 2009 22:20 7th-Real wrote: in regards to observers not noticing lag, of course they arent going to. LL seems to feel like extra high latency even with it on low latency in game. most of the time someone is lagging, the game might look smooth, but its still taking two seconds for units to move. I've had times on iccup on extra high lat where I've been able to 1a2a3a4a5a6a twice and still have to wait a second for my army to start moving, and I'm by no means fast on the keyboard.
To an observer its going to look like the player was just slow in acting, while the player he's thinking something along the lines of 'WHAT THE FUCK I MOVED MY SHUTTLE WHAT THE FUCK WAS IT DOING' F91 probably plays a very large portion of his games with two seconds of delay, most people aren't used to it. not to discount his skill but I think the liquibitions with him involved so far would have been MUCH closer if he didn't lag.
Except F91 is terrifying in offline competitions with his micro. He is just an incredibly skilled, unorthodox player that presents a unique challenge to a lot of people who are so stringent in their builds like Nony, Idra etc.
F91 "probably" plays the majority of his games with other Chinese and with Koreans, who geographically he is very close to and probably doesn't lag to at all. So let's not pretend like F91 is acclimated to lag and that's the reason he wins games, that's so wrong and proves a lot of ignorance on the part of people who say things like that. He is a good player, that is all. Zerg typically has less reactive micro to do outside of mutas in starcraft, so I think the race in general is easier to play in laggy conditions for the most part. I'll give people that.
Concerning Nony, he's really similar in mindset to Idra in my opinion, in the way he believes so strongly in his abilities. Without the BM that is, I don't think he's a bad sportsman at all it's just my view of him, he's someone who believes very strongly in themselves and that's where they get a lot of their ability. So I'm not surprised to find out playing in a bit of lag is going to be frustrating for him especially he loses because of it. I don't doubt the lag affected his play, and I don't doubt that he wants to win and show everyone good games. I also think from watching his xfire stream, he is not in top form and F91 will easily win this series in any circumstances.
There's going to be lag in US vs China games, and in most of Europe as well. That's just the reality of playing against Chinese players. I'm tired of seeing it being used as an excuse to be honest because everyone knows it's going to happen. They have to work together if they want to get these games played by trying to get them played over the course of the week, and that's all people are trying to get done I think.
If you're playing an online match, you should realize before you challenge someone that it's going to lag - especially against a chinese player. If the chinese player can cope with the lag and Nony can't... well, guess what that means?
It seems to me Nony has problem with his (too big) ego. I understand that ex-progamer wants to have a perfect conditions but cmon, its a show, its a satarday entartainment for all sc fans and if hes afraid to lose just replace him with someone less sensitive.
F91 is not invincible, many players can give us a good match vs him.
On March 21 2009 22:20 7th-Real wrote: F91 probably plays a very large portion of his games with two seconds of delay, most people aren't used to it. not to discount his skill but I think the liquibitions with him involved so far would have been MUCH closer if he didn't lag.
On March 21 2009 21:16 kulik- wrote: i didnt said that u are making excuse i just try say... that everyone knows taht chinese have lag problem so if is problem for u dont play vs them... nobody force u to play again F91... u saw chance of playing this event... to make some money... u face it quite well... u played and lost ok... but nony? he knew that there is gonna be lag problem and according to ash it was so big... what did he expected? that its gonna be like in estro house on lan??
actually he had reason to believe there wouldnt be a lag problem because of the lag test. when he plays and sees that it lags he leaves. i dont see anything wrong with that.
whereas i just played it out and then everyone jumped on my ass afterwards saying i was lying about the lag to downplay my loss.
that aside, he did not agree to play in lag. he agreed to play liquibition. are foreigners not allowed to play in any event chinese choose to play if they dont want to deal with lag?
On March 21 2009 21:16 kulik- wrote: i didnt said that u are making excuse i just try say... that everyone knows taht chinese have lag problem so if is problem for u dont play vs them... nobody force u to play again F91... u saw chance of playing this event... to make some money... u face it quite well... u played and lost ok... but nony? he knew that there is gonna be lag problem and according to ash it was so big... what did he expected? that its gonna be like in estro house on lan??
actually he had reason to believe there wouldnt be a lag problem because of the lag test. when he plays and sees that it lags he leaves. i dont see anything wrong with that.
whereas i just played it out and then everyone jumped on my ass afterwards saying i was lying about the lag to downplay my loss.
that aside, he did not agree to play in lag. he agreed to play liquibition. are foreigners not allowed to play in any event chinese choose to play if they dont want to deal with lag?
I have to agree with IdrA.
Have you ever tried to play relatively high level games without good latency? Even at a C- level, the difference really shines. Regular latency will give you about a 1 second response time. Sure, that may not seem like much, but opposed to a nearly instantaneous reaction, it is monumental. It is the difference between losing one straggling marine and your entire army. Running away your vessels, and getting every single one cloned and killed. The difference between a battle-winning storm and one that does nothing. Even more so, it is the difference between losing your entire economy to a harassment or a drop, compared to losing almost nothing.
Try playing in LAN latency at a level higher than D, and then play battle.net at the same level, and then tell me it is the same.
On March 21 2009 22:37 synapse wrote: If you're playing an online match, you should realize before you challenge someone that it's going to lag - especially against a chinese player. If the chinese player can cope with the lag and Nony can't... well, guess what that means?
Real lag (spikes) is inexcusable. Delay should be expected.
no one hates Nony but people have very short memories, he refused to GG before the Idra controversy where we atleast got one G out of him. His fpvods were very disparaging to his opponents at worst and dismissive at best. He's not BM but his attitude has never been fantastic so an issue like this doesn't really come as a surprise. He also contributes a lot to the site and that should be appreciated
I play iccup at a D+ level and I refuse to play on bnet or if my opponent doesn't have the AH. You people make it seem like there was just a little bit of delay, like the average iccup game, but looking at NonY's post, it seems like there was at least battlenet delay.
Sure he agreed to play, but he shouldn't be expected to play in these conditions. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't get much entertainment out of "i tell shuttle to pick up reaver, too late. all his moves are just send units in to attack and hope i dont respond fast enough." Thank you NonY for delaying the match and actually giving us a good show.
And yes, I get slightly BM too when I lose because of lag even when the LL is on. I tihnk NonY handled himself rather well considering that it's for a decent amount of money and hundreds/thousands of people will be watching you.
On March 21 2009 20:24 ondik wrote: Good luck fighting with biased mills Ash
The irony. Chinese players can do it!!! So can the other foreigners!! :eyeroll:
What? I have no idea what you are reffering to but let me guess, the sentence about how lag is same for both players. Don't put words I haven't said into my mouth, please. In fact i find such sentence stupid, a) F91 is probably used to such lag conditions more than Nony, b) even if both of them were used to it the same, race still make some difference.
What I was reffering to is that majority here is Nony's fans with a tendency to defend him and make excuses no matter what he did. I didn't say Nony did good thing I didn't say Nony did bad thing, I didn't judge, I just said that it would be hard for Ash to argue with a priori biased persons.
I used to have a lot of respect for nony before this. Anyone who thinks I wrote all the posts is only to insult and destroy his reputation has no idea what he's talking about. The reason why I wrote them isn't only about defending the chinese players. I myself have even asked quite a number tournament admins to disqualify the chinese players when I know it's their problems and games were unplayable. Some who do not know me may think that I'm nothing but a biased manager from fnatic.
Everything I did is to ensure a best possible environment for everyone to play in and also a best possible stream for the audience. My complaints about nony are mostly due of him refusing to solve the problems which he claimed to have . Instead of being rational telling me about the condition, he chose to leave the server right after he typed some not-so-polite comments before either one of us had enough time to respond. A smooth tournament requires toleration of players and also admins. F91 was kind to accept nony request to agree playing at (20 CET) 3 am China time so why does nony have problems being nice to spend some time for us to settle the problems instead of delaying the stream for everyone who has waited 2 weeks for it?
I will only say this one more time, the problem was definitely solvable had nony been patient or polite enough. It was being played on Low Latency in iCCup so for those who are going to tell everyone how Lan Latency differs from Battle net speed please stop and save your time. I personally have doubts in nony's complaint bout the lag which shouldn't happen in a Low Latency iCCup game. Maybe I should upload the replay and let everyone judge if admin allows me to do so?
Other than that, Nazgul has already explained what's in my mind so thank you nazgul for that. I will stop posting in this thread now to avoid more flames. I apologize if any of you has been offended by my posts but please I just was trying to tell everyone the other side of the truth so people would know the story behind it instead of randomly blaming f91 for the delay. It's really unfair to F91. He has also offered to start the series again from nil nil.
It makes me so sad that I've played this game for so fucking long and hardly ever notice lag. Like a no lag b.net game and a lan latency game is indistinguishable to me. Lolz, I suck.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: There may be some who lagged with the chinese or some who don't. In this case, Nony had the opportunity to play in a lag free game if he was kind enough to do a f10 o n h o but he refused to do so. I'm sure most of you may automatically assume nony being a victim for this lag but honestly chinese connections aren't as stable as most of the connections you guys tend to have so you cant expect them to provide you a completely iCCup LL lag free game everytime you play.
In most of the cases, China - USA,Canada,Spain + some of the countries usually work FINE unless they have a bad day.
Sportsmanship? Think twice!
look we all know that chinese connection really suks (by this im referring to chinese connections to other countries).
but u rn't making any sense in your logic u said u did a connection test like some days b4? y did u run that test? because u didnt want lag rite?
so how come u do a test to make sure there's no lag and when there is lag IN A GAME u say that nony is being a bad sport for not wanting to play?
every gamer knows that lag tends to fuk every1 over cept one person
u cannot say he's being a bad sport for leaving a laggy game... if u joined a laggy game in sc woudln't u leave? it's a waste of time!
if nony says there's lag and that it's crippling his micro then u gotta move the date telling nony to tough it up is like telling a marathon runner who's juts lost one of his leg to stop being a pussy and run...
On March 21 2009 22:37 synapse wrote: If you're playing an online match, you should realize before you challenge someone that it's going to lag - especially against a chinese player. If the chinese player can cope with the lag and Nony can't... well, guess what that means?
R U SERIOUS?
dude if u r expecting to watch a GOOD online match u should expect some delays cus of the stupid lag jeez.. y do the players have to accommodate for ur ass? it's not even like they were forced to play =.=
Everyone really likes stirring the drama... Guys, just relax.
I don't think anyone can fault Nony for wanting to play in an environment that more closely suited to what the rest of the non-Chinese world plays in and that he's been playing in for years. None of us except Ash/Nony/F91 know exactly what he said so lets not jump to conclusions. For the time being we only have Ash's word to go on, so perhaps Nony could have been a bit more diplomatic about it if we are to believe Ash. That said, I think we can all understand Nony's reasons for delaying the match to try to get more optimal conditions.
I don't think Ash is really out to get Nony either, just perhaps using a poor choice of words sometimes.
Nony and F91 are both great players, let everyone (players, coaches, tl, etc) do their thing and we should get some great games out of it. Relax guys.
Bummer. I was planning to play basketball and then come home looking forward to this. Now, there's no liquibitio and it's too cold outside. + Show Spoiler +
On March 21 2009 20:24 ondik wrote: Good luck fighting with biased mills Ash
The irony. Chinese players can do it!!! So can the other foreigners!! :eyeroll:
a) F91 is probably used to such lag conditions more than Nony,
That was my point. o: I'm not personally biased. I don't really care about IdrA or Nony or what they do with their SC careers. It's just that people say stupid shit in order to make others look bad, particularly in this thread.
I don't think anyone can fault Nony for wanting to play in an environment that more closely suited to what the rest of the non-Chinese world plays in and that he's been playing in for years. None of us except Ash/Nony/F91 know exactly what he said so lets not jump to conclusions. For the time being we only have Ash's word to go on, so perhaps Nony could have been a bit more diplomatic about it if we are to believe Ash. That said, I think we can all understand Nony's reasons for delaying the match to try to get more optimal conditions.
This. Everyone just stop your whining complaining and side-picking. It isn't always so that one side has to be right one has to be wrong.
On March 22 2009 00:40 ilistis wrote: Bummer. I was planning to play basketball and then come home looking forward to this. Now, there's no liquibitio and it's too cold outside. + Show Spoiler +
On March 22 2009 00:36 Phyre wrote: I don't think Ash is really out to get Nony either, just perhaps using a poor choice of words sometimes.
Are you kidding? Based on the contents of this thread, it looks like Ash has spent a good portion of the last two hours reading this thread and posting long replies to anyone who disagrees with him and defends NonY. His original post's primary purpose was clearly to insinuate that NonY was being unsportsmanlike for refusing to play in laggy conditions. Regardless of whether his account of the events is fair, it's clear that Ash entered this thread specifically to call NonY a bad sport in public. Is that really productive? Ash, what kind of a person spends two hours trying to assault someone's reputation on an online forum? Don't you have better things to do?
If anything, Ash's complaint should have been raised with the TL admins or directly to NonY. Coming directly to this thread is in very poor taste.
NonY might have been able to explain himself better at the time, but why should he be forced to play out a series in extremely laggy conditions? The game quality would be awful, he wouldn't have a chance to accurately represent his skills, and in general the excellent reputation of Liquibition would be tarnished. Given that NonY experienced lag to the extent that he considered the series totally unplayable, he really had no other choice but to hope for a reschedule under better conditions. What did you expect him to do, Ash?
NonY made the best choice for himself and the viewers. If F91 is a great competitor like his recent Liquibition series have suggested, he will also be happy with NonY's decision - in the absence of lag complaints, F91 has the opportunity for an unblemished victory.
Edit: Ash, the other problem I have with your posts is that you don't seem to acknowledge that it's possible NonY was even experiencing "unplayable lag", but instead insist he merely has an unrealistic expectation for lag. This position is completely untenable...NonY has likely played countless games with Chinese gamers in the past so he obviously knows what an acceptable level of China-US lag is. Just because "many Chinese play Koreans on iCCup" does not mean that the lag was playable for NonY.
On March 22 2009 00:40 ilistis wrote: Bummer. I was planning to play basketball and then come home looking forward to this. Now, there's no liquibitio and it's too cold outside. + Show Spoiler +
Oh, and Jangbi lost. Damn it, not a good weekend.
That was pretty messed up. After being disappointed with the prospect of no liquibition, I planned on watching the series as I've had finals all week. Use spoilers -_-;; It didn't even have anything to do with this thread. No one even knows you're an avid + Show Spoiler +
On March 22 2009 00:40 ilistis wrote: Bummer. I was planning to play basketball and then come home looking forward to this. Now, there's no liquibitio and it's too cold outside. + Show Spoiler +
Oh, and Jangbi lost. Damn it, not a good weekend.
That was pretty messed up. After being disappointed with the prospect of no liquibition, I planned on watching the series as I've had finals all week. Use spoilers -_-;; It didn't even have anything to do with this thread. No one even knows you're an avid + Show Spoiler +
If I went on iccup played 2 games... LOST then made a complaint about lag.. would I get back my game back?
Its all good if Nony just said fuck this lag is unplayable then quit the game 1 minute in.
But he played TWO games.... LOST... then said fuck this lag is UNWINNABLE.
Consider that Nony is usually perceived as sportsman-like. It's not out of the question - perhaps even likely - that he wanted to play the series regardless of the lag. He wanted to show a good series of games (evidenced by the fact he had agreed prior to play out the entire series upon rescheduling). By the second game though, he could see the conditions weren't changing. Look at it from both perspectives. If he'd just quit one minute in, wouldn't that be even weirder? Imagine the reaction on TL. People wait for 2 weeks for a series of games, then Nony is like 'oh nah this is too laggy' and quits one minute in. People would have jumped all over him anyway, saying things like "he should have waited to see what the lag was like. sometimes it lags in the beginning"
If I went on iccup played 2 games... LOST then made a complaint about lag.. would I get back my game back?
Its all good if Nony just said fuck this lag is unplayable then quit the game 1 minute in.
But he played TWO games.... LOST... then said fuck this lag is UNWINNABLE.
Consider that Nony is usually perceived as sportsman-like. It's not out of the question - perhaps even likely - that he wanted to play the series regardless of the lag. He wanted to show a good series of games (evidenced by the fact he had agreed prior to play out the entire series upon rescheduling). By the second game though, he could see the conditions weren't changing. Look at it from both perspectives. If he'd just quit one minute in, wouldn't that be even weirder? Imagine the reaction on TL. People wait for 2 weeks for a series of games, then Nony is like 'oh nah this is too laggy' and quits one minute in. People would have jumped all over him anyway, saying things like "he should have waited to see what the lag was like. sometimes it lags in the beginning"
This.
Also, I read a post earlier, maybe Plexas? That said the Chinese's internet varies day-to-day, hour-to-hour. To add to that, we read Ash's biased reply and even though his reply he sheds light on lag spikes once every few minutes game 2. So most likely the lag varied through-out. Though I don't know why this is up for discussion, it's not even a debate. Ash just felt like trying to start a bandwagon for f91. He rides on his player's success more than any manager I've ever seen.
I think people need to realize that there are two sides to every story, and since we had no admin there we can't verify anything. Can everyone stop taking one side as 100% truth? Because more often than not usually the true story is a combination of both sides version of events.
Wow it's really sad how few people can stay objective about this. I mean okay its never possible to stay completely objective but its still interesting to see all these people bashing Ash like that.
Think about it: Even if you completely take away whether or not it is ok to play with lag like that it was still unsportsmanlike from nony Whats wrong with saying something like "Sry but the lag is really bad, can we plz delay this whole event and play it some other time?!" Saying "fuck I never should have agreed to this" and then just leaving f91 who then has to talk to his manager just to know wtf just happened - who can you deny its not very sportsmanlike For me personally its not about the fact that nony didnt want to play but about how he did it.
I'm sure nony got really angry for the reasons he explained, I mean everyone here I'm sure would be angry if he for example picks up a reaver and a second later it's dead even though you theoretically microed it perfectly.
I also cant agree with everything Ash said but in his case it is (although apparently not to many) also very easy to understand that he got pretty angry about nony's behavior (including the whole lag-testing thing before the games..)
Nony usually seems like a really nice guy, he just gets worked up too easily,gets angry and starts being bm, that's why people like draco or mondragon have/had some issues with him. Nobody is not perfect, he doesn't need to be, but stop bashing Ash for being pissed about him.
And btw. don't forget that despite what happened f91 was very sportsmanlike and just agreed to restart from 0-0
"Ash just felt like trying to start a bandwagon for f91. He rides on his player's success more than any manager I've ever seen." I mean comments like that just show how few people are really able to THINK
Youre damn right Ash is biased. Of course he is because he feels like one of his friends just got fu*ked over but how can you blame him for that... no matter if hes right or wrong about that
On March 22 2009 02:00 Hot_Bid wrote: I think people need to realize that there are two sides to every story, and since we had no admin there we can't verify anything. Can everyone stop taking one side as 100% truth? Because more often than not usually the true story is a combination of both sides version of events.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
am not saying he's a not good sport but are you going to spoil the whole schedule just because your opponent cannot provide you your "ideal environment" . If you were a real sport man you'd tolerate
Maybe we have a different definitions for Sport but how many of you actually refuse to play if you don't get LL in iCCup?
Well, he kinda has a reputation to uphold being a foreigner in korea. If he gets smashed, everyone will say hes wasting his time blah blah
f91 will be liquibition champion forever, as no other human can survive under such extreme conditions of lag
hahaha
that's awesome laggy game should be considered an extreme esport! too bad no1 would watch... or maybe they can just air the players' reactions, haha
on a brighter note i totally thought this thread was about liquibition being out cus all i saw was the "liquibition" and "!" and i assumed it was out b4 entering the thread, heh
Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?
On March 22 2009 02:19 Zepish wrote: Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?
Hamachi wouldnt help, there would still be AT LEAST 250 ping to China from US. It's just the distance the signal has to travel and like 20 hops instead of 10.
Try tracing your connection to a chinese city and see what the delay is.
I just traced my connection to YaoYuan, and the ping is 500ms. To me that's unplayable in any game, and i'm not even a professional player.
On March 22 2009 02:19 Zepish wrote: Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?
im not 100% sure on this but i think china blocks hamachi
and even if it didn't it wouldn't make that much of a difference in terms of lag spikes and such
On March 22 2009 02:19 Zepish wrote: Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?
Hamachi wouldnt help, there would still be AT LEAST 250 ping to China from US. It's just the distance the signal has to travel and like 20 hops instead of 10.
Try tracing your connection to a chinese city and see what the delay is.
On March 22 2009 00:36 Phyre wrote: I don't think Ash is really out to get Nony either, just perhaps using a poor choice of words sometimes.
Are you kidding? Based on the contents of this thread, it looks like Ash has spent a good portion of the last two hours reading this thread and posting long replies to anyone who disagrees with him and defends NonY. His original post's primary purpose was clearly to insinuate that NonY was being unsportsmanlike for refusing to play in laggy conditions. Regardless of whether his account of the events is fair, it's clear that Ash entered this thread specifically to call NonY a bad sport in public. Is that really productive? Ash, what kind of a person spends two hours trying to assault someone's reputation on an online forum? Don't you have better things to do?
If anything, Ash's complaint should have been raised with the TL admins or directly to NonY. Coming directly to this thread is in very poor taste.
Thats interesting cause to me it seems like nony was the one who refused to properly communicate - I mean posting at TL.net while dodging ash at msn? Posting a short bm comment after game 2 and then just leaving?
I do agree with your other points about Ash not considering that lag might have been a lot more severe than what he describes it to be but thats just another clear case where we just dont know and people should stop pretending they know whats going on and know that one of the two sides is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.
What I was wondering about though is that nony said that f91 nearly dropped in game 1... So to my understanding both players had to sit there, seeing a little number starting with 0:45 slowly going down... so this would be something f91 would clearly have realised as being really bad so why didnt ash mention it either he left it out trying to make a point or nony was exaggerating a bit...
On March 22 2009 02:27 R3condite wrote: u r rite but nony is not in US atm?
poor F91, he had to play this game at 3am and be left without knowing anything happening. and there is another game for him the next day in China, what a poor man. let's say he was fucked up.
On March 22 2009 02:35 pure)3.41 wrote: poor F91, he had to play this game at 3am and be left without knowing anything happening. and there is another game for him the next day in China, haha. what a poor man.
He's not poor at all he's makin that chedda thanks to liquibition victims
Can I ask TL why a Chinese player was allowed into Liquibition in the first place? F91 is, in my opinion, an excellent gamer, but the Chinese were banned from TSL for a reason: game quality. Shouldn't Liquibition be held to the same standard?
On April 01 2008 12:03 Manifesto7 wrote: Sorry China.
After extensive dicussion amongst the TSL staff, well-known gamers, and members of the Chinese gaming community, we have decided to prohibit all gamers residing in China from qualifying for the playoffs of the TSL.
The reason for this is simple; game quality. There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers. These problems will only be magnified when two casters and an observer are present. Rather than have issues during broadcast times, we will avoid the situation altogether.
For the TSL staff, the quality of the league is paramount to the considerations of individual gamers. I apologize to those Chinese gamers who have already invested time in the league, but we felt it was better to make this clear now rather than later. Gamers are still welcome to participate in the ladder, but will not be eligible for qualification.
If you have any questions of comments, please PM Manifesto7.
Thank you, TSL Staff
Ash you seem to be on some kind of crusade here. Every time someone hints at intolerable Chinese lag, you get defensive and saying its not their fault. Yes, we realize NonY was irritated by the lag. Who wouldn't be? When the lag test was fine and then your connection went to crap (don't try and turn the blame on NonY's, there have been 28 Liquibitions - only the ones with your player have had any lag complaints of this magnitude that I recall) and he got upset because it is unplayable at that level. Obviously it wasn't just one or two small little things, it was a big deal. Don't forget that NonY has been one of the heroes of this community and you're taking on an entire website when you try and insinuate that he has bad sportsmanship because he refuses to play in HIGHLY unfavorable conditions. That's like saying a coach is a bad sport because he doesn't want his team to play in a rain storm because he doesn't want his kids to get injure.
Let's just take a quick look here:
TeamLiquid Star League - Chinese IPs banned due to game quality issues. Reasoning: "There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers."
Liquibition #27 - JF vs. F91, Complaints of lag (according to another TL.netter)
Broodsport 1 - IdrA vs. F91, IdrA kicks Mani because of lag, also mentions hints of lag later on.
Liquibition #28 - Strelok vs. F91 - We noticed hints of lag in this one too.
Liquibition #29 - NonY vs. F91 - Delayed due to lag
Stamina - Jaystar vs. ret - ret forfeits series after 1 game because of lag issues.
NASCL KoTH - Jaystar vs. DIMAGA - Jaystar has latency issues, becomes Never vs. DIMAGA
I do see a trend forming here, and it's not crappy non-Chinese connections.
On March 22 2009 00:09 Ash wrote: I will only say this one more time, the problem was definitely solvable had nony been patient or polite enough. It was being played on Low Latency in iCCup so for those who are going to tell everyone how Lan Latency differs from Battle net speed please stop and save your time. I personally have doubts in nony's complaint bout the lag which shouldn't happen in a Low Latency iCCup game. Maybe I should upload the replay and let everyone judge if admin allows me to do so?
If my units refused to do what I told them to and my micro timing is messed up in an important game because of lag, maybe it's not that easy for me to be patient (even I'm at D/D+). I guess it's natural to get frustrated, and when frustrated one cannot deliver his best games even if the problem is then solved.
And how is the replay supposed to be an evidence of lag? The replays are always smooth (correct me if I got you wrong) FPVod can help though.
Judge I think you made a really nice post, but it's important to consider the benefits of involving Chinese talents in all of these "foreigner" events. China is easily the strongest SC country outside of Korea, I think its players deserve to have representation in special matches like Liquibition, assuming both players involved can accept the level of latency.
On March 22 2009 02:45 JWD wrote: Judge I think you made a really nice post, but it's important to consider the benefits of involving Chinese talents in all of these "foreigner" events. China is easily the strongest SC country outside of Korea, I think its players deserve to have representation in special matches like Liquibition, assuming both players involved can accept the level of latency.
I agree that they are excellent players, but they do have quite the scene of their own over there, and the latency issues are noteworthy for organizers. Unfortunately the StarCraft scene does not have the money in it like the CounterStrike scene does to co-ordinate bigger LAN events rather than online tournaments and matches.
On March 22 2009 02:36 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: Can I ask TL why a Chinese player was allowed into Liquibition in the first place? F91 is, in my opinion, an excellent gamer, but the Chinese were banned from TSL for a reason: game quality. Shouldn't Liquibition be held to the same standard?
On April 01 2008 12:03 Manifesto7 wrote: Sorry China.
After extensive dicussion amongst the TSL staff, well-known gamers, and members of the Chinese gaming community, we have decided to prohibit all gamers residing in China from qualifying for the playoffs of the TSL.
The reason for this is simple; game quality. There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers. These problems will only be magnified when two casters and an observer are present. Rather than have issues during broadcast times, we will avoid the situation altogether.
For the TSL staff, the quality of the league is paramount to the considerations of individual gamers. I apologize to those Chinese gamers who have already invested time in the league, but we felt it was better to make this clear now rather than later. Gamers are still welcome to participate in the ladder, but will not be eligible for qualification.
If you have any questions of comments, please PM Manifesto7.
Thank you, TSL Staff
Ash you seem to be on some kind of crusade here. Every time someone hints at intolerable Chinese lag, you get defensive and saying its not their fault. Yes, we realize NonY was irritated by the lag. Who wouldn't be? When the lag test was fine and then your connection went to crap (don't try and turn the blame on NonY's, there have been 28 Liquibitions - only the ones with your player have had any lag complaints of this magnitude that I recall) and he got upset because it is unplayable at that level. Obviously it wasn't just one or two small little things, it was a big deal. Don't forget that NonY has been one of the heroes of this community and you're taking on an entire website when you try and insinuate that he has bad sportsmanship because he refuses to play in HIGHLY unfavorable conditions. That's like saying a coach is a bad sport because he doesn't want his team to play in a rain storm because he doesn't want his kids to get injure.
Let's just take a quick look here:
TeamLiquid Star League - Chinese IPs banned due to game quality issues. Reasoning: "There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers."
Broodsport 1 - IdrA vs. F91, IdrA kicks Mani because of lag, also mentions hints of lag later on.
Liquibition #28 - Strelok vs. F91 - We noticed hints of lag in this one too.
Liquibition #29 - NonY vs. F91 - Delayed due to lag
Stamina - Jaystar vs. ret - ret forfeits series after 1 game because of lag issues.
NASCL KoTH - Jaystar vs. DIMAGA - Jaystar has latency issues, becomes Never vs. DIMAGA
I do see a trend forming here, and it's not crappy non-Chinese connections.
There was also lag issues in the JF vs F91 series. Yeah, hopefully this gets resolved, and propos to Idra, JF, and Streok for dealing with it and showing us a few decent series.
I think if nony really waited till the end of the game to complain about lag, that's not very mannered. Whatevs I dont know the whole story, I just hope the games get played so we can see some cool matches.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
In starcraft skills, I want to point out that in PGL tournament Nony was invited to play LAN in China. He was soon eliminated in the weakest group. He even had no chance to face to F91 and other stronger Chinese and Korean players in a totally lag-free environment.
In personality, I don't think an educated man will say:"" fuck it i shouldn't have agreed to play chinese players in the first place. reschedule if you want." after his embarassed lose. Not to mention his irresponsible attitude during the game test.
The question is why let such a bad-skill and bad-manner player ruin our Liquibition?
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.
The lag is a two way street. Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win? This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close. The lag should not be a deciding factor.
meh sum up this thread: nony was not wrong in being mad about lag BUT he could have handled it better.
and I think its just as unfair for chinese players used to a little delay to have to play lan speeds. imo that throws them off just as much as lag does for other players. So any way you cut it...dont play one another if you want to take it so seriously.
On March 22 2009 04:58 stack wrote: meh sum up this thread: nony was not wrong in being mad about lag BUT he could have handled it better.
and I think its just as unfair for chinese players used to a little delay to have to play lan speeds. imo that throws them off just as much as lag does for other players. So any way you cut it...dont play one another if you want to take it so seriously.
That actually is a nice one-sentence-summary.. close thread plz? ^^
I don't think anyone can fault Nony for wanting to play in an environment that more closely suited to what the rest of the non-Chinese world plays in and that he's been playing in for years. None of us except Ash/Nony/F91 know exactly what he said so lets not jump to conclusions. For the time being we only have Ash's word to go on, so perhaps Nony could have been a bit more diplomatic about it if we are to believe Ash. That said, I think we can all understand Nony's reasons for delaying the match to try to get more optimal conditions.
This. Everyone just stop your whining complaining and side-picking. It isn't always so that one side has to be right one has to be wrong.
On March 21 2009 22:37 synapse wrote: If you're playing an online match, you should realize before you challenge someone that it's going to lag - especially against a chinese player. If the chinese player can cope with the lag and Nony can't... well, guess what that means?
Real lag (spikes) is inexcusable. Delay should be expected.
What Nony clearly defined was delay. If you're playing on ICCUP against a Chinese player it is only normal that there will be some 'delay' sometimes. Over the last few years the Chinese infratstructure has gotten a little bit better.
Now would everyone please STFU and encourage both players.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.
The lag is a two way street. Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win? This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close. The lag should not be a deciding factor.
Are you for real? Of course it makes a huge difference if one of the party is used to playing under such conditions...
I know from I played vs F91 how unbearable the lag can be (delay is more the correct term, since it did not really lag, just everything took around a second to respond) Now I would probably have lost vs him anyway since hes a way better player than me, but I know the delay made my chances to win drop to zero. Its virtually impossible to play with that kind of delay when your used to instant reaction from units. At the same time as I am struggling beyond words, F91 was microing his mutas perfectly picking off all my probes one by one and that made it crystal clear to me that he is perfectly used to playing under such condition, and therefor receiving an unfair advantage.
Yeah... pretty much, if the conditions are unplayable, it's better to wait. Decision makes sense to me.
The quotes from nony's end are a little fierce, and I think could be toned down probably, but what matters is that everything goes on. It's not as though nony is insulting F91 by doing this, at least, not intentionally.
And yeah, oystein is correct on the lag thing. I think a good comparison is if you played on 56k when other people were on cable (maybe not in starcraft, which isn't actually my gamer background, but the analogy works there too).. people would probably be freaking out as to how you could play so well on 200 ping, or whatever. This is where pings AREN'T balanced (like in FPS games, lockstep is not used for networking as it is in RTS..typically). If you're used to the environment, you play better in the environment because there isn't a change from the norm (though I'd imagine f91 lans... so, take that as you will).
Anyway, I don't see a reason to get in Nony's face about this and launch an anti-noni campaign. Sure, he might've been a bit angry, but it's certainly not enough evidence. Estro said what they thought about him, so I'd imagine he's a respectable guy as most of us believe.
On March 22 2009 07:23 Mobius wrote: i wonder if f91 is as gosu without lag
Chinese gamers can play with or without lag, several foreigners made that painful experience at PGL or WCG, including Nony. Maybe F91 has an advantage with lag though.
F91 played hundreds of offline games and online games I donot think he really gave a shit about the stuff so called LAN or NO LAN, as a good player sometime s u had to adapt yourselft to differeent circumstances. hope things will be solved next week.
gotta say though even though I agree with all the people saying lag is a real disadvantage for nony, I wonder what it feels like trying to dodge storms with like 2 seconds delay ^^
I understand both sides to this and don't think anyone acted unreasonably but you have to understand one thing about this all. Lag lowers the skill required to play the game, peroid. Sure you might argue that F91 is more skilled in laggy conditions than Nony. He probably is. But the fact that you're playing on lag just makes some strategies so much worse. The game becomes less about fast hands and reactions and more about strategy and planning. A one second delay might make any type of reaver opening worthless. Right then and there you several perfectly valid strategies not being usable because it's either too risky or to easy to counter. On the other hand mutas get harder to micro. But not really vs toss. The only muta micro you can't do vs toss in lag is the vs archon micro so the strategy is still fine basically.
I'm sure everyone allready thought about what I said but whatever side you're on in this discussion (hopefully both sides if you aren't a Nony fanboy or an angry Draco fan) you have to acknowledge the simple truth that delay is not only about who's more experienced in playing in it. It also lowers the very skillcap of the game.
On March 22 2009 08:32 StarBrift wrote: I understand both sides to this and don't think anyone acted unreasonably but you have to understand one thing about this all. Lag lowers the skill required to play the game, peroid. Sure you might argue that F91 is more skilled in laggy conditions than Nony. He probably is. But the fact that you're playing on lag just makes some strategies so much worse. The game becomes less about fast hands and reactions and more about strategy and planning. A one second delay might make any type of reaver opening worthless. Right then and there you several perfectly valid strategies not being usable because it's either too risky or to easy to counter. On the other hand mutas get harder to micro. But not really vs toss. The only muta micro you can't do vs toss in lag is the vs archon micro so the strategy is still fine basically.
I'm sure everyone allready thought about what I said but whatever side you're on in this discussion (hopefully both sides if you aren't a Nony fanboy or an angry Draco fan) you have to acknowledge the simple truth that delay is not only about who's more experienced in playing in it. It also lowers the very skillcap of the game.
If I had to read one more comment about "China is used to this lag but the rest of the world isn't" I'd probably blow my top.
I live in Australia. When I connect to iccup and type /ping, I consider 350 a good value for a return. Yet when I go and play games, with Lan Latency, there are rarely issues, and if there are they are quickly fixed by switching over to High Latency in Network Settings. (You'll notice that 350 is a much higher number than 200 which someone quoted for China.)
Now, maybe Nony didn't want to play on High Latency because he is used to perfect conditions, and I don't necessarily fault him for that. But all you people talking about "two seconds of delay" and Chinese players just being used to playing in "b-net like lag" really need to get a clue, because I highly doubt it's like that.
On March 22 2009 08:32 StarBrift wrote: I understand both sides to this and don't think anyone acted unreasonably but you have to understand one thing about this all. Lag lowers the skill required to play the game, peroid. Sure you might argue that F91 is more skilled in laggy conditions than Nony. He probably is. But the fact that you're playing on lag just makes some strategies so much worse. The game becomes less about fast hands and reactions and more about strategy and planning. A one second delay might make any type of reaver opening worthless. Right then and there you several perfectly valid strategies not being usable because it's either too risky or to easy to counter. On the other hand mutas get harder to micro. But not really vs toss. The only muta micro you can't do vs toss in lag is the vs archon micro so the strategy is still fine basically.
I'm sure everyone allready thought about what I said but whatever side you're on in this discussion (hopefully both sides if you aren't a Nony fanboy or an angry Draco fan) you have to acknowledge the simple truth that delay is not only about who's more experienced in playing in it. It also lowers the very skillcap of the game.
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.
The lag is a two way street. Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win? This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close. The lag should not be a deciding factor.
Are you for real? Of course it makes a huge difference if one of the party is used to playing under such conditions...
I know from I played vs F91 how unbearable the lag can be (delay is more the correct term, since it did not really lag, just everything took around a second to respond) Now I would probably have lost vs him anyway since hes a way better player than me, but I know the delay made my chances to win drop to zero. Its virtually impossible to play with that kind of delay when your used to instant reaction from units. At the same time as I am struggling beyond words, F91 was microing his mutas perfectly picking off all my probes one by one and that made it crystal clear to me that he is perfectly used to playing under such condition, and therefor receiving an unfair advantage.
My point is, even without lag, Nony hardly stand a chance to win, just like you vs F91.
I think TL should just set the standard so both sides would shutup.
A) If TL says "we want completely lag free games and thus will only invite Americans with no lag", then fine, don't ask eastern european and chinese top players to play.
B) If TL wants the absolute top players in the world, they have to expect there will be lag problems. It doesn't make sense to blame F91 for China's slower internet infrastructure. I'm sure F91 would want to magically speed up the internet if he had the power.
I believe Nony acted a little snobbish in this situation. This is just a exhibition play, for fun, and for all of our enjoyment of high-level non-Korean starcraft. Frankly, it''s amazing and i'm very thankful that we even have the chance to witness top non-koreans play each other across the globe! It's not like this is for the MSL championship. Remember, he had a chance so be a progamer and quit.
To me, it is a joy to see top players from around the globe play each other, share strategies, and enjoy themselves. I frankly think Nony was upset that he lost the first set, and was looking for an excuse, and blamed the lag so he wouldn't hurt his own ego.
I am only interested the future games, would F91 be 2-0 heading into the resume? or did Ash said F91 offered nony to start the series from 0-0 when they resume?
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: Sportsmanship? Think twice!
No matter what happened, whether we take one side's story or the other side's story, or the midpoint of the two, I don't see how we can skewer Nony for his alleged less than diplomatic statements, and not do the same to Ash. There is absolutely no reason to come post a note like that - if that's not a straight up flame/troll I don't know what is. I can think of a million better ways to raise the issues that Ash raised, and explain the story, without needing to convince us that Nony is bm - let public opinion decide that Nony was at fault if you're truly on the "right" side.
Anyways, I really hope everyone listens to the mods and simmers down, we'll get our liquibition in a week, and then we'll have something to amuse ourselves from the monotony of days without SC games.
I've always found it weird that people complain about "Lan Latency" being turned on or not. Whenever I play games on iccup with or without the "Lan Latency" option being turned on it is the same ping, same speed. I can't seem to figure out how you can achieve the same speed that a LAN has over the internet. Does clicking this option speed up light?
It is very very unlikely that you can achieve the 100Gbit LAN speeds when playing ANY internet game. It would be ridiculous for Nony to expect local network speeds (like he's used to in the korean training houses) when playing any internet game.
On March 22 2009 09:54 bcjuggler wrote: I've always found it weird that people complain about "Lan Latency" being turned on or not. Whenever I play games on iccup with or without the "Lan Latency" option being turned on it is the same ping, same speed. I can't seem to figure out how you can achieve the same speed that a LAN has over the internet. Does clicking this option speed up light?
It is very very unlikely that you can achieve the 100Gbit LAN speeds when playing ANY internet game. It would be ridiculous for Nony to expect local network speeds (like he's used to in the korean training houses) when playing any internet game.
Lag seems to be a popular scapegoat lately.
Bandwidth and latency are not mutually inclusive
And bnet was designed for dial up modem latency. Bnet requires the players to be synced so every action has noticeable delay compared to when you are playing offline (be it lan or single player)
a typical dial up modem has device latency of around 100 ms. That is, 2 33.6k modems can not achieve lower than 200 ms under the most optimal conditions, while ethernet can be as low as 0.3ms
So when you are using lan latency vs an opponent, all that matters is the stability of your connection, and your latency to that person. So while you can't ever achieve lan latency, you can get close to it with people within the same geographical area (outside routing and trafficking issues notwithstanding)
it doesn't "speed up light" but it uncaps the limitations bnet set forth to ensure smooth play vs 2 modem users so instead of having the game be extremely choppy, everything is sluggish.
Even if there was delay which I somehow doubt it's for both players. Anyway I'm getting the feeling that alot of foreigners are backing up their lack of skill with excuses about delay and lag issues when they're playing chinese/korean players. In 90-95% of the cases I don't have any problems while playing chinese/korean players. That's why I respect players like Strelok/White-ra alot more they aren't arrogant and don't come with new excuses every time. I'll probably get flamed for this by some fanboys but these threads are getting a hype lately.
I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
because F91 almost took out stork in a best out of 3 in an live event in front of many chinese, and that 3rd game was close. Just a little bit more impressive than nony's epic courage finalist match
On March 22 2009 10:44 B1nary wrote: I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
On March 22 2009 10:44 B1nary wrote: I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
Mainly because a lot of people here fickle. Remember when it was F91 v JF? Before that, about 1% of the TL population knew who F91 is, and the Liquibet statistics showed JF as the overwhelming favorite. Because JF was coming off 4 Liquibition wins, everyone just assumed he'd steamroll everyone. And then F91 came along and basically demolished JF, and now, 3 more Liquibitions later, TL is enamored with F91. If Nony wasn't Nony, people'd be predicting F91 4-0. Not many people here have an accurate gauge of the skill levels of many of the foreign pros relative to each other. People sway where the wind blows.
I argue that one should gauge their skill when they go up against S class koreans, in spirit tournament nony was the only one didn't get completely stream rolled by the S class pros (he played good vs julyzerg)
and F91 like i said almost took out stork in his prime at the time. So base on this, F91 is ahead of nony, but nony did have like a good month of living in a pro team to make up for the skill gap, I really hope nony can take out F91, or at least take 3 games from him and make it close.
As long as f91 isn't overly offended, and doesn't even mind restarting after being up 2/0 or so it seems, then I think it doesn't really matter.
Nony should abuse zergs lack of micro in lan lat and play defensive/grade heavy lategame oriented toss. If he does I'm sure he can do all right. If he plays standard I'm sure just like with strelok f91 will be able to lag abuse him to death. I've seen a couple chinese zergs abuse cosairs lack of micro against early mutas a million times so that is definately an adjustment that we should hope nony keeps in mind.
On March 22 2009 11:07 AttackZerg wrote: As long as f91 isn't overly offended, and doesn't even mind restarting after being up 2/0 or so it seems, then I think it doesn't really matter.
This. I don't think either player is being particularly mannered (assuming that Ash's posts were made following a request by F91, and weren't entirely his own idea), but it's in the past, just shake hands, agree on a standard beforehand, and try again.
On March 22 2009 11:16 CaptainPlatypus wrote: This. I don't think either player is being particularly mannered (assuming that Ash's posts were made following a request by F91, and weren't entirely his own idea), but it's in the past, just shake hands, agree on a standard beforehand, and try again.
I don't think anyone here needs to defend F91 from you.
I don't really get why this had to be a huge flame war. It would've been better for Ash to take it to NonY and whoever's in charge of the event quietly.
Isn't it interesting that F91 defeated 3 of the best foreigners, (Idra, Strelok, Nony 2-0) and yet lost pretty badly in the qualifiers for ESWC (brackets are here).
This means that either the Chinese as a whole are much better than we previously thought, or that something else is at work in the Liquibition games (aka lag).
On March 22 2009 12:03 motbob wrote: Isn't it interesting that F91 defeated 3 of the best foreigners, (Idra, Strelok, Nony 2-0) and yet lost pretty badly in the qualifiers for ESWC (brackets are here).
This means that either the Chinese as a whole are much better than we previously thought, or that something else is at work in the Liquibition games (aka lag).
Winning in 'unplayable' lag, hardly constitutes defeat. It's rescheduled anyways.
On March 22 2009 12:03 motbob wrote: Isn't it interesting that F91 defeated 3 of the best foreigners, (Idra, Strelok, Nony 2-0) and yet lost pretty badly in the qualifiers for ESWC (brackets are here).
This means that either the Chinese as a whole are much better than we previously thought, or that something else is at work in the Liquibition games (aka lag).
I don't think that's very conclusive - maybe he had a bad matchup, or maybe people in China are more familiar with his style (I'm sure the top Chinese players play each other at least a fair amount), or maybe he just had a bad day/tournament. He has been convincingly better than these foreigners, so if there was lag it could factor in, but the results themselves don't prove anything. If he were losing to C+ players on ICCUP all over the place and then 5-2d Idra and Strelok, then we could wonder.
On March 22 2009 10:44 B1nary wrote: I don't understand why people are saying Nony doesn't stand much of a chance. Nony's shown that he can hold his own against top Chinese players numerous times in the past and surely, spending time in Korea must mean something, right?
Mainly because a lot of people here fickle. Remember when it was F91 v JF? Before that, about 1% of the TL population knew who F91 is, and the Liquibet statistics showed JF as the overwhelming favorite. Because JF was coming off 4 Liquibition wins, everyone just assumed he'd steamroll everyone. And then F91 came along and basically demolished JF, and now, 3 more Liquibitions later, TL is enamored with F91. If Nony wasn't Nony, people'd be predicting F91 4-0. Not many people here have an accurate gauge of the skill levels of many of the foreign pros relative to each other. People sway where the wind blows.
I need to learn to put things into prospective like you do. You wrote that whole thing out addressing the ignorance level on this forum without offending anyone. I like you.
On March 22 2009 12:03 motbob wrote: Isn't it interesting that F91 defeated 3 of the best foreigners, (Idra, Strelok, Nony 2-0) and yet lost pretty badly in the qualifiers for ESWC (brackets are here).
This means that either the Chinese as a whole are much better than we previously thought, or that something else is at work in the Liquibition games (aka lag).
PJ / Lx / F91 / Super etc... are ( at least imo ) on the same level than Ief, Strelok Nony or Idra lol. And tbh China >>>>>>>>>>> any other country ( except Korea ;D ).
They have like 10 players who could be on liquibition. Now try to find 10 players who deserve to be on this showmatch in the US or even Poland ( two quite strong countries ). You will find 4-5 max :/
FYI, that's LX (Legend), generally recognized to be the top player in China. He, along with PJ, used to be SKT1 as B-teamers, and generally Chinese Protosses are the best of the three races (There is an aspect of 1a2a3a involved here =\). F91 has traditionally lost more to Lx than won :X
Super's, in my opinion, on a lower level.
But this proves my point about how most people here don't have an accurate view of the skill level of foreigners, especially Chinese ones - you basically presented Lx as a "nobody" who beat F91, when in fact he was the favorite going into the matchup.
I know there are quite a few rich TL posters. Maybe one of them can donate money to fly F91 to US (not Nony to China cause that would just give him another excuse)?
Or maybe we should start a pot for "donate to F91 US ticket"
I know there are quite a few rich TL posters. Maybe one of them can donate money to fly F91 to US (not Nony to China cause that would just give him another excuse)?
Or maybe we should start a pot for "donate to F91 US ticket"
because i'm sure f91 would want to fly to the US to win $25 (assuming he wins)
iono, seems like a lack of manners here dont it? at least according to Ash's story, he was trying to be accomodating and work this shit out. "fuck it i knew i shouldn't have agreed to play a chinese player" sounds like someone doesn't know how to handle social etiquette... hm... looks like f91 is showing the bad side of all the american players lol.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: Sportsmanship? Think twice!
No matter what happened, whether we take one side's story or the other side's story, or the midpoint of the two, I don't see how we can skewer Nony for his alleged less than diplomatic statements, and not do the same to Ash. There is absolutely no reason to come post a note like that - if that's not a straight up flame/troll I don't know what is. I can think of a million better ways to raise the issues that Ash raised, and explain the story, without needing to convince us that Nony is bm - let public opinion decide that Nony was at fault if you're truly on the "right" side.
It's not a flame/troll, it's just an argument; with support and etc to back it up. In fact, it could maybe be the truth (<---key word, maybe), in which case it's anything but a flame. It's the follow-up posts that ignite the flamewars.
On March 22 2009 15:51 SerpentFlame wrote: It's not a flame/troll, it's just an argument; with support and etc to back it up. In fact, it could maybe be the truth (<---key word, maybe), in which case it's anything but a flame. It's the follow-up posts that ignite the flamewars.
It is a flame/troll the way its presented. There's no reason to frame the entire story around how Nony is unsportsmanlike. Why do you need to argue at all, if you're trying to post the truthful story behind what happened? And why disrespect Nony so badly while claiming he disrespected you... it seems like that would be counterproductive, and perhaps bordering on hypocritical.
You know, if this lag thing doesn't work out, how about we just get a top Chinese player to play out this final Liquibition? In general TL.net audience isn't familiar with the Chinese scene, so this could be a nice way to get everyone familiar with the players. It really sucks that we'll never be able to have a lag-free liquibition between a top Chinese vs a top non-Chinese foreigner.
Anyway, just my personal thoughts.
And about F91 losing recently, losing to Legend is nothing to be ashamed of. The guy is just good. And he's pretty cool in that he commentating too, which is always good.
On March 22 2009 18:13 baubo wrote: You know, if this lag thing doesn't work out, how about we just get a top Chinese player to play out this final Liquibition? In general TL.net audience isn't familiar with the Chinese scene, so this could be a nice way to get everyone familiar with the players. It really sucks that we'll never be able to have a lag-free liquibition between a top Chinese vs a top non-Chinese foreigner.
Anyway, just my personal thoughts.
And about F91 losing recently, losing to Legend is nothing to be ashamed of. The guy is just good. And he's pretty cool in that he commentating too, which is always good.
Yeah well the other chinese players are at the same level as him (Lx,PJ,RushGoon,Super etc.) and are all very capable of beating him.
I like ash and very many chinese guys, but i can't accept that admins doing right at now allowing them playing in foreign events. They lag as hell... Only because of the respect to ash and his tryings to make game me vs F91 possible, i didn't do same as Nony...
On March 22 2009 19:20 3D.Strelok wrote: I like ash and very many chinese guys, but i can't accept that admins doing right at now allowing them playing in foreign events. They lag as hell... Only because of the respect to ash and his tryings to make game me vs F91 possible, i didn't do same as Nony...
Yes, the lag from chinese players can be difficult to handle for westerners. Hopefully NonY will defeat F91 in the liquibition and thus get the title back in the west. It is a difficult situation for TL admins I'm sure, as they cannot simply take the title away from F91 without him either refusing to defend it or losing it in a match--to do so spits on the idea of a KOTH format.
On March 22 2009 19:20 3D.Strelok wrote: I like ash and very many chinese guys, but i can't accept that admins doing right at now allowing them playing in foreign events. They lag as hell... Only because of the respect to ash and his tryings to make game me vs F91 possible, i didn't do same as Nony...
With this three top foreigners and the F91s latest opponents have voiced how extreme the situation can be (Idra to a lesser extent since he obviously had less lag). This should proove that there IS a problem with the lag. Whether or not the players acted wrong or right here is irrelevant. Everyone should care more the lag issues being resolved than flaming either player. I also believe that the TL staff is very focused on this very thing. Rather than discussing right and wrong they're interested in getting the game started in playable conditions. Kudos!
No one in their right mind can blame Nony because of the extreme situation and no one in their right mind can blame F91 because he is the victim of his country's infrastructure. Just drop the flaming, OK?
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote: so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|
I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?
Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games? The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.
The lag is a two way street. Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win? This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close. The lag should not be a deciding factor.
Are you for real? Of course it makes a huge difference if one of the party is used to playing under such conditions...
I know from I played vs F91 how unbearable the lag can be (delay is more the correct term, since it did not really lag, just everything took around a second to respond) Now I would probably have lost vs him anyway since hes a way better player than me, but I know the delay made my chances to win drop to zero. Its virtually impossible to play with that kind of delay when your used to instant reaction from units. At the same time as I am struggling beyond words, F91 was microing his mutas perfectly picking off all my probes one by one and that made it crystal clear to me that he is perfectly used to playing under such condition, and therefor receiving an unfair advantage.
My point is, even without lag, Nony hardly stand a chance to win, just like you vs F91.
Maybe, maybe not, but I still wanna see them play the games at an even playing field aka lagfree games. I don`t care who wins and I don`t have a "side" in this case, all I am trying to say is that the lag that can and sometimes will occur with Chinese players are unacceptable to compete in if we want a fair and good match imo. All I am hoping for is some great matches to watch with both players performing their best.
I have tested games with a slow and a fast connections before. What happens is that the slower connection one is able to maintain a smooth frame rate but the faster one will go fast but then every certain number of cycles there is a pause as it tries to wait for the slow client to catch up which makes it very difficult to play. So there would be this animation cycle of pause and play. It's really damn annoying and unplayable. I would suggest to try and test switching around with different hosts.
Plus, what's a Malaysian doing obsing a game that already has potential lag(stretching the connections even further than China)? I would suggest a retake. I want exhibition games which are exhibition games, where both sides are satisfied and do not have excuses to lose, not ones that are rushed to get a result. They're not fighting to win WW3, newbs.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: I can see a lot of people flaming me for what I'm gonna say given the amount of nony fans there are in TL.net but I'm still going to write my point of view of this whole event. Please read carefully what I'm going to say instead of flaming me blindly
So this is what happened:
Over the past few days, I've been asking nony to do lag test with f91 just to ensure things go fine but everytime I msg him in MSN when he is available(available mode in msn) I get 0 responses but I still see him posting in TL.net at that particular time. The message usually goes like this " Hello nony! please let me know when you're back and tell me if you will be available to try out the connection with f91" Fine, I didn't mind about it because I was confident with the connection of china and USA due to the amount of games the fnatic players have played against americans in the past so I knew any problems can be easily solved (IF there is any).
After a few days of requesting, I finally get a reply from Nony on wednesday to try it out. Both of them tried it once in iCCup and nony said speed was fine then left the server. As soon as I see that I told plexa about the good condition and setup a date for nony to play against f91 which is Friday 20CET.
What does the organization of the lag test have to do with anything? You've proven that I'm on MSN when I'm actually not available to chat, something most people are guilty of and isn't a big deal at all. There was no scheduled time for the lag test. The very first time I saw your message and was available to do it, we did it. If you don't like the messiness of instant messages, then use normal messaging and schedule a time. But again, I don't see how this is relevant.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: On Friday, Nony showed up and went ahead to play against F91 (there wasn't any tl admins around so we had to deal things ourselves) After the first game , F91 was up 1-0 and then nony complained in channel that there was lag in F91 . I was kinda surprised when I saw it since they didn't have any problems 2 days ago so I asked F91 to reconnect. Five minutes later, the series continued with me joining as an obs. Surprisingly it was fine in iCCup low latency. A few minutes later, spikes happened every once in 2-3 minutes which I ended up leaving the game. Not long after, Nony came out from the game saying something like " fuck it i shouldn't have agreed to play chinese players in the first place. reschedule if you want" and left immediately which obviously showed that he has lost the second game as well. Dude this guy did not even bother to switch the latency to high/extra high and complained about lag? Whats more ridiculous is he told me that he is a professional player and he expects the games to be played in LAN speed. Everyone who plays iCCup regularly would know that lan high latency is definitely playable even for high level games. How many koreans in iCCup have you seen leaving your game because they cant play in low latency???
How were you surprised that there was lag in the first game? At the very start of the game you had to leave because of lag.
After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all. Interesting side note here: F91's last opponent has already sworn off playing Chinese players in online competitions whenever he can avoid it. But anyway, when I came out of the game, I explained the situation. Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone. I told you that I agreed to play the match if there was no lag and there was lag so I had to stop the match. I said if there was reason to believe that there wouldn't be lag at some other time under different conditions, then we could reschedule. Otherwise, we'll have to cancel. And I also said no TL.net admin was available at the time so we'll just have to wait to contact them for a decision. My last comment was about not playing Chinese players anymore, and then I left.
I was playing the SCL ladder when you called me out of that competition to come chat. You had nothing new to say. That's all I did was repeat myself at this point. This was completely on my own time that I was giving to you and you were wasting it. I re-explained that I was not going to play in lag. You started saying I was being emo and letting my emotions get into the situation. But that simply wasn't the case and when you started that, I just left abruptly. The fact is that I explained the situation perfectly fine, without disrespecting anyone, and you simply wouldn't accept it. As far as I can tell, you were simply trying to coerce me into playing in laggy conditions and I'm just not going to have it.
The LAN speed was switched to high latency and the "Waiting for players..." countdown got in the 20's. Yeah, we could keep elevating the latency until we're playing on old school b.net latency and it's still lagging, which are the conditions Strelok had to play in, but I'm not going to do that. For the record, my limit on the lag is this: LAN latency set to high, with minimal choppiness (drop screen shouldn't nearly come up). It was worse than that.
I don't think this is very relevant, but I do stand by the statement that the Korean pros would not play in anything they care about with high LAN latency or any amount of choppiness. I saw players make faces because of the tiniest lag in simple iCCup practice games. Setting to high is just ridiculous for them because there are 100's of people to play with for which low LAN latency will be perfectly fine.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: Hence, I'd like you guys to reconsider if you still think nony has the real sportmanship. I had a lot of respect for nony before this when he went to korea , heck I would even consider myself as a nony fan but sadly now after what has happened i think he's not as mannered as most people would consider him to be afterall. Draco vs Nony TSL 1 year ago anyone??
Ah, now I get to your next paragraph, and I find that your whole post is just an attack on my sportsmanship. Here I thought you were just trying to let the people know what happened. But this is just to attack my sportsmanship. Draco vs NonY TSL 1 year ago? How about Draco and NonY 4 months ago, practicing together and hanging out the whole WCG? I'll admit my mistakes, disrespect, and BM from the past, but when you want to judge who I currently am, you should not pick and choose. Start from the most recent times and paint the whole picture, keeping in mind that people change and mature.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: seriously how can you actually expect a LAN speed game connecting from America to China? You should've been more than happy provided that you're able to play in high latency game in iccup without lag. I can't imagine how he'd talk if he had to play f91 in a situation like how strelok played f91. (Chinese can barely have a perfect connection with Ukr unless they were to play in battle net speed) which is why the respect I have for strelok now is even more. This is what nony has expected and he said he'd refuse to play in any other possible environment because he is a professional player and he plays only in "professional" speed. uh wtf? Give f91 a flight ticket so they could play in an internet cafe maybe?
I seriously did not expect LAN latency from America to China. With that physical distance, it is possible, but China in particular has had some problems, but I've heard sometimes it works nonetheless. Still, I didn't expect it and that's why there was a lag test. We should have done a lag test longer than 10 seconds. That is really what has caused this whole mess. And then you bring up Strelok, which I honestly think is an example against you. Is that what you really want, what the people want, is for players to struggle through a laggy match, only to look like a much worse player in the broadcast, disappointing the fans, and then refusing to play Chinese players online again? Since you expected it to lag, and you definitely expected me to play through it, then I guess that this is what you expected to happen all along. No, I don't think that's what Liquibition ought to be.
I didn't call myself a professional player. I said I was acting professionally in response to your claims to the contrary. By that I meant I was explaining myself simply and clearly, since that was all that needed to be done at that time. For a match that I care about, I have a lag threshold. I don't recall saying the phrase 'professional speeds'. I did say that professional players wouldn't play in lag for something that matters (well, they could be forced by their coach, but that's a different matter).
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: 1. Nony wants low latency speed in iCCup with 0 lag 0 spike 0 latency. 2. Nony refuses to play on high latency in iCCup even if there is no lag because he thinks as a professional player, the difference of response time like 0.005 sec?is unplayable. 3. Nony refuses to play in such situation unless the TL admins force him to do so. 4. Nony refused to tolerate.
1. Untrue. I never said that. I never implied that. 2. I will and did play on high latency. The difference is much greater than .005, btw. 3. This is an interesting one. You say it as a point against me, but it seems to me that it's the natural order of things. The TL.net admins understood that I didn't want to play in lag, thus the lag test. So when they hear that it's laggy, they probably wouldn't make me play, to respect my wishes and for the quality of the match. But since they already announced the match and hyped it, they might want to force the match to be played so as to not disappoint the fans. Since I care about TL.net and I care about the viewers, I said that I'd be willing to play if that's what the admins think is best. 4. Yeah, I have to draw the line somewhere. I refuse to tolerate things that have crossed that line, such as the lag and you. I think this speaks toward my character.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: There may be some who lagged with the chinese or some who don't. In this case, Nony had the opportunity to play in a lag free game if he was kind enough to do a f10 o n h o but he refused to do so. I'm sure most of you may automatically assume nony being a victim for this lag but honestly chinese connections aren't as stable as most of the connections you guys tend to have so you cant expect them to provide you a completely iCCup LL lag free game everytime you play.
In most of the cases, China - USA,Canada,Spain + some of the countries usually work FINE unless they have a bad day.
Again with the high latency. We did high latency. I guess this is just a fact that you got wrong and perhaps now that you know, it's enough to change your mind on the whole thing. I don't know.
On March 21 2009 20:03 Ash wrote: Sportsmanship? Think twice!
I'd also like to note that people shouldn't flame Ash. You can all easily see here we have a disagreement but he has not been bad at all. I think it all just centers around how much lag I should have to play in and whether or not I should be able to cancel a match due to lag. We had much different opinions on those things going in. Attacks on sportsmanship, flames, etc, aren't really needed. The purpose of the news post, I think, is just to inform people with 100% transparency.
On March 22 2009 23:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: I told you that I agreed to play the match if there was no lag and there was lag so I had to stop the match. I said if there was reason to believe that there wouldn't be lag at some other time under different conditions, then we could reschedule. Otherwise, we'll have to cancel.
Since getting no lag is near impossible. This is cancel for good?
On March 22 2009 23:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: I told you that I agreed to play the match if there was no lag and there was lag so I had to stop the match. I said if there was reason to believe that there wouldn't be lag at some other time under different conditions, then we could reschedule. Otherwise, we'll have to cancel.
Since getting no lag is near impossible. This is cancel for good?
I guess there will be no matches. Lag may be inevitable for the next 15 years. So what do you want?
For the greater good of non-Korean starcraft, we all have to accept some lag issues.
The alternative is to say absolutely no matches with Chinese players, no matter how good they are.
Ok Look nony, I didn't want to continue the flame here butI can't believe how hard you tried to twist the truth of what really happened. It's either you have a really short memories or you're really good at lying.
No schedule time for the lag test? First time of you noticing my message and you did it?
2. I was surprised with the lag of the first game because in my country different ip domain would provide different speed of connection so I knew I was the one lagging the game which why I left immediately and reconnected to get a better ip. Anyone who lives in Malaysia would understand this.
3.
Picture shows thousands of words so I'm not gonna talk about how you actually left the server immediately after game 2. The screenshot is enough proof to show that you didn't mention a thing about what you posted except for some bad language and rescheduling possibility.
I really didn't want to continue this flame war or whatever you call it which is why I stopped posting earlier after that but you're such a mask man in front of the community that I really cannot stand it anymore. You and I both know that your posts are so ridiculously full of lies. I'm sorry but you just took away the last few of respect I had for you now.
I like idra's 1st post here and nony's point of view too
and wanted to answer to "How many koreans in iCCup have you seen leaving your game because they cant play in low latency??? "... From my experience - a lot.
Now you're just trying to discredit me? You haven't posted any evidence to discredit me. Everything there is compatible with what I said happened. We scheduled the lag test for an entire 24 hour period and we were online at different times. I didn't fail to come through. As for the b.net conversation, in your first post, you cut out 90% of the conversation we had. I responded by accounting for the rest of the conversation and also acknowledging that snippet. You respond by posting the snippet and calling me a liar. Unless you're going to somehow prove that we didn't have a conversation, you have no point.
Why would you even take that screenshot? You needed to remember that I said I'd reschedule? It seems like you took that screenshot just in case you could find a reason to post it on a forum. Bad intentions from the start?
I've done nothing to antagonize you. No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here. Since you seem to like using the Koreans as a reference, I can assure you that none of the Korean team managers act in the way you are right now. My job was to inform you and an admin that I was stopping the match, why I was stopping the match, and whether or not I'd reschedule. I did all of those things immediately. Your job was to inform F91 what was going on, to report to the admin and to talk to F91 about rescheduling if there's a reschedule. Nothing else. Your job is NOT to coerce your player's opponent into playing a match. Your job is NOT to question your player's opponent's decision. Your job is NOT to antagonize your player's opponent.
On March 21 2009 20:57 -orb- wrote: Ash are you on a crusade against nony?
You seem hell-bent on ruining his reputation and everyone's view of him.
You should have just posted your first message and left it at that. You lost all weight in that message in my eyes because clearly you have some personal problem with him that's illustrated in your repeated posting with every post being an insult to nony.
Get off the high horse and get over whatever it is you're butthurt about, people aren't going to listen to a troll like you.
My thoughts exactly
No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here.
On March 23 2009 03:20 Liquid`NonY wrote: Now you're just trying to discredit me? You haven't posted any evidence to discredit me. Everything there is compatible with what I said happened. We scheduled the lag test for an entire 24 hour period and we were online at different times. I didn't fail to come through. As for the b.net conversation, in your first post, you cut out 90% of the conversation we had. I responded by accounting for the rest of the conversation and also acknowledging that snippet. You respond by posting the snippet and calling me a liar. Unless you're going to somehow prove that we didn't have a conversation, you have no point.
Why would you even take that screenshot? You needed to remember that I said I'd reschedule? It seems like you took that screenshot just in case you could find a reason to post it on a forum. Bad intentions from the start?
I've done nothing to antagonize you. No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here. Since you seem to like using the Koreans as a reference, I can assure you that none of the Korean team managers act in the way you are right now. My job was to inform you and an admin that I was stopping the match, why I was stopping the match, and whether or not I'd reschedule. I did all of those things immediately. Your job was to inform F91 what was going on, to report to the admin and to talk to F91 about rescheduling if there's a reschedule. Nothing else. Your job is NOT to coerce your player's opponent into playing a match. Your job is NOT to question your player's opponent's decision. Your job is NOT to antagonize your player's opponent.
Didn't you just mention in your previous posts about how you didn't say what I said, you didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing you said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all? If it's not lying then tell me what it is?
Sure you're going to say I cut out 90% of the conversation , that was expected. The reason why I did not post the other conversation is because it only happened like 1 hour after you left the server and came back in as SCL-NonY, that's when we really had a talk about the reasons why you left and discuss about the reschedule. I would be more than willing to upload the whole screenshots of our conversation if you want. Screenshots would show that our conversations only happened when you had a different logged in ID. I took them just as a backup incase anything happens because there wasn't any admin around. I've stated in my first post that all my posts are my point of views so it has nothing to do with my manager position in Fnatic. I am defending f91 as a friend of his because it's sad how people always try to take advantage or steal credits from the non english speakers just because people think they wont be able to defend themselves. I am here to inform the community what really happened, period.
Note: I could've uploaded all the screenshots earlier for others to judge but I refused to because I think what I've previously said is more than enough. I only did it now because you were obviously twisting the fact and I needed to provide a proof of how you did it.
On March 23 2009 03:20 Liquid`NonY wrote: Now you're just trying to discredit me? You haven't posted any evidence to discredit me. Everything there is compatible with what I said happened. We scheduled the lag test for an entire 24 hour period and we were online at different times. I didn't fail to come through. As for the b.net conversation, in your first post, you cut out 90% of the conversation we had. I responded by accounting for the rest of the conversation and also acknowledging that snippet. You respond by posting the snippet and calling me a liar. Unless you're going to somehow prove that we didn't have a conversation, you have no point.
Why would you even take that screenshot? You needed to remember that I said I'd reschedule? It seems like you took that screenshot just in case you could find a reason to post it on a forum. Bad intentions from the start?
I've done nothing to antagonize you. No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here. Since you seem to like using the Koreans as a reference, I can assure you that none of the Korean team managers act in the way you are right now. My job was to inform you and an admin that I was stopping the match, why I was stopping the match, and whether or not I'd reschedule. I did all of those things immediately. Your job was to inform F91 what was going on, to report to the admin and to talk to F91 about rescheduling if there's a reschedule. Nothing else. Your job is NOT to coerce your player's opponent into playing a match. Your job is NOT to question your player's opponent's decision. Your job is NOT to antagonize your player's opponent.
Sure you're going to say I cut out 90% of the conversation , that was expected. The reason why I did not post the other conversation is because it only happened like 1 hour after you left the server and came back in as SCL-NonY, that's when we really had a talk about the reasons why you left and discuss about the reschedule. I would be more than willing to upload the whole screenshots of our conversation if you want. Screenshots would show that our conversations only happened when you had a different logged in ID. I took them just as a backup incase anything happens because there wasn't any admin around. I've stated in my first post that all my posts are my point of views so it has nothing to do with my manager position in Fnatic. I am defending f91 as a friend of his because it's sad how people always try to take advantage or steal credits from the non english speakers just because people think they wont be able to defend themselves. I am here to inform the community what really happened, period.
what are you blithering about no ones stealing his credit, and the vast majority of the time your players do lag with foreigners. saying so isnt a crime or even an insult, its an annoying reality that most players would rather not deal with. believe it or not when players are forced to deal with something like that they get frusterated.. but nony didnt even say anything personally insulting or even all that rude. so why do you keep posting?
The bottom line is if one of the players believes that the lag will be so bad, that it will affect their gameplay severely, they have every right to reschedule until the conditions are better or cancel altogether.
Ash, and supporters, please don't come in here riding on your high horse, bitching about how Nony was unprofessional, we all know how frustrating is lag, and to take one word 'fuck' and to make it look like it's the end of the world is nothing but trolling. Your TLDR posts about something so trivial and common as lag are just a waste of everyone's time.
On March 21 2009 20:57 -orb- wrote: Ash are you on a crusade against nony?
You seem hell-bent on ruining his reputation and everyone's view of him.
You should have just posted your first message and left it at that. You lost all weight in that message in my eyes because clearly you have some personal problem with him that's illustrated in your repeated posting with every post being an insult to nony.
Get off the high horse and get over whatever it is you're butthurt about, people aren't going to listen to a troll like you.
No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here.
QFT
+1. Seriously, being a neutral party here (I don't really know anything about any of these players here), I've lost any respect for what Ash has to say in this thread, because he is accusing Nony of bad sportsmanship in an even lower, less classy way. If everything Ash says about Nony is exactly true, I would have agreed with him, but the unnecessary constant attacks just ruin it for me.
On March 21 2009 20:57 -orb- wrote: Ash are you on a crusade against nony?
You seem hell-bent on ruining his reputation and everyone's view of him.
You should have just posted your first message and left it at that. You lost all weight in that message in my eyes because clearly you have some personal problem with him that's illustrated in your repeated posting with every post being an insult to nony.
Get off the high horse and get over whatever it is you're butthurt about, people aren't going to listen to a troll like you.
My thoughts exactly
No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here.
QFT
+1. Seriously, being a neutral party here (I don't really know anything about any of these players here), I've lost any respect for what Ash has to say in this thread, because he is accusing Nony of bad sportsmanship in an even lower, less classy way. If everything Ash says about Nony is exactly true, I would have agreed with him, but the unnecessary constant attacks just ruin it for me.
I sincerely understand what you think about me. To me my original intention wasn't to attack nony constantly. I just wanted to explain to people the whole situation of what really happened. I wouldn't deny the fact that I could've done it at a better way but it just pisses me off when I see such things happen. I knew I had to stand up for F91. I'm willing to apologize if I've said anything more than what really happened. I've said I would have no problems if the lag really happened but
On March 22 2009 08:44 Turbovolver wrote: I skipped to the end of the thread after page 4.
If I had to read one more comment about "China is used to this lag but the rest of the world isn't" I'd probably blow my top.
I live in Australia. When I connect to iccup and type /ping, I consider 350 a good value for a return. Yet when I go and play games, with Lan Latency, there are rarely issues, and if there are they are quickly fixed by switching over to High Latency in Network Settings. (You'll notice that 350 is a much higher number than 200 which someone quoted for China.)
Now, maybe Nony didn't want to play on High Latency because he is used to perfect conditions, and I don't necessarily fault him for that. But all you people talking about "two seconds of delay" and Chinese players just being used to playing in "b-net like lag" really need to get a clue, because I highly doubt it's like that.
Is it so hard to believe Nony was exaggerating?
this guy has explained the EXACT situation of the games which Nony was obviously exaggerating bout how slow his units actually responded. Other than that I'm also not really happy with his lies or story twisting skills. I really did not have anything against nony before this but now I'd admit i think hes a big liar. Anyone with an unbiased view would be able to notice that.
On March 21 2009 20:57 -orb- wrote: Ash are you on a crusade against nony?
You seem hell-bent on ruining his reputation and everyone's view of him.
You should have just posted your first message and left it at that. You lost all weight in that message in my eyes because clearly you have some personal problem with him that's illustrated in your repeated posting with every post being an insult to nony.
Get off the high horse and get over whatever it is you're butthurt about, people aren't going to listen to a troll like you.
My thoughts exactly
No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here.
QFT
+1. Seriously, being a neutral party here (I don't really know anything about any of these players here), I've lost any respect for what Ash has to say in this thread, because he is accusing Nony of bad sportsmanship in an even lower, less classy way. If everything Ash says about Nony is exactly true, I would have agreed with him, but the unnecessary constant attacks just ruin it for me.
I sincerely understand what you think about me. To me my original intention wasn't to attack nony constantly. I just wanted to explain to people what really happened. I wouldn't deny that I could've done it at a better way but it just pisses me off when I see such things happen. I knew I had to stand up for F91. I'm willing to apologize if I've said anything more than what really happened.
As much as I think many members of the community are eagerly awaiting more juicy drama I think it's time you guys (TL admins, Nony, Ash, F91) take this behind closed doors and have a civil real time discussion.
It looks like this is degenerating into discrediting the other side and no good can really come of that. Sort it out like mature adults, away from the legions of fans on both sides. Preferably with TL admins present to moderate things.
Hi. Being a third party here as well, my concern is about the unfairness in which Nony left after game 2 and only after apparently when his psi storms failed. Now, some people might say: you only leave when you loose and only then do you blame it on lag if there was any. But looking it from this direction, what if f91 had left after 2 games - and not just after the first - to state that lag is an issue in which everything must be rescheduled and all previous games must be canceled or annuled?
Now, this is all under the assumption that Nony left after game 2 and only after an exceptionally unfortunate encounter between f91's forces and nony's forces. I think what must be done is a publicly disclosed replay of both game 2 and game 1 to see the true extent of this impossible and unplayable lag.
On March 23 2009 04:17 archaicon wrote: Hi. Being a third party here as well, my concern is about the unfairness in which Nony left after game 2 and only after apparently when his psi storms failed. Now, some people might say: you only leave when you loose and only then do you blame it on lag if there was any. But looking it from this direction, what if f91 had left after 2 games - and not just after the first - to state that lag is an issue in which everything must be rescheduled and all previous games must be canceled or annuled?
Now, this is all under the assumption that Nony left after game 2 and only after an exceptionally unfortunate encounter between f91's forces and nony's forces. I think what must be done is a publicly disclosed replay of both game 2 and game 1 to see the true extent of this impossible and unplayable lag.
I don't think you can really get a feel for lag conditions from a replay.
On March 23 2009 04:17 archaicon wrote: Hi. Being a third party here as well, my concern is about the unfairness in which Nony left after game 2 and only after apparently when his psi storms failed. Now, some people might say: you only leave when you loose and only then do you blame it on lag if there was any. But looking it from this direction, what if f91 had left after 2 games - and not just after the first - to state that lag is an issue in which everything must be rescheduled and all previous games must be canceled or annuled?
Now, this is all under the assumption that Nony left after game 2 and only after an exceptionally unfortunate encounter between f91's forces and nony's forces. I think what must be done is a publicly disclosed replay of both game 2 and game 1 to see the true extent of this impossible and unplayable lag.
I don't think you can really get a feel for lag conditions from a replay.
Normally, players tend to have much higher apm compared to the usual one. A lot of people have seen 1000 apm or something like that in extremely laggy games. Other than that I think there are also some parts where people can look at.
On March 23 2009 03:20 Liquid`NonY wrote: Why would you even take that screenshot? You needed to remember that I said I'd reschedule? It seems like you took that screenshot just in case you could find a reason to post it on a forum. Bad intentions from the start?
If you say "fuck", people will take a screenshot for sure cause you are famous.
On March 23 2009 04:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I love how so many people open their posts with something along the lines of "Being a neutral party..." and then proceeds to take a stance =D
People say that meaning that they had no prior expectations before reading this thread, and thus are trying to judge things from the content of the posts, rather than their opinions of the parties involved. I think its a perfectly reasonable thing to say - its like serving jury duty (I guess I'm not familiar with how many other people on this site will be familiar with that), not that anyone is really asking for my opinion.
On March 21 2009 20:57 -orb- wrote: Ash are you on a crusade against nony?
You seem hell-bent on ruining his reputation and everyone's view of him.
You should have just posted your first message and left it at that. You lost all weight in that message in my eyes because clearly you have some personal problem with him that's illustrated in your repeated posting with every post being an insult to nony.
Get off the high horse and get over whatever it is you're butthurt about, people aren't going to listen to a troll like you.
My thoughts exactly
No responsible manager publicly attacks the character of his players' opponents. You're way out of line here.
QFT
+1. Seriously, being a neutral party here (I don't really know anything about any of these players here), I've lost any respect for what Ash has to say in this thread, because he is accusing Nony of bad sportsmanship in an even lower, less classy way. If everything Ash says about Nony is exactly true, I would have agreed with him, but the unnecessary constant attacks just ruin it for me.
I sincerely understand what you think about me. To me my original intention wasn't to attack nony constantly. I just wanted to explain to people the whole situation of what really happened. I wouldn't deny the fact that I could've done it at a better way but it just pisses me off when I see such things happen. I knew I had to stand up for F91. I'm willing to apologize if I've said anything more than what really happened. I've said I would have no problems if the lag really happened but
The thing is, I don't think anyone has tried to flame F91 in this thread, and I don't think anyone has really come close to posting that this is in some way his fault. I guess some people have posted that F91 is not a good player or insinuated that he's only winning because of lag, but that is a TL tradition, and its because people have selective memories about who won and lost what (and they also forget that at the top levels, anyone can win any game - see Bisu vs Chrh). The bottom line is, it doesn't really seem like you're jumping up in defense of your own player because everything you have to say is about how Nony did this or that - if you really just wanted to protect F91 you could say "look how reasonable my player has been - he dealt with lag, and he's willing to reschedule and even start over at 0-0 despite staying up really late for the first attempt at liquibition 29", instead of what you have said.
If Nony is at fault it is Nony, and if lag is at fault it is the fact that F91 is playing out of China, which he can't really help. I admire F91 for being willing to start over at 0-0 and trust his own skills, and his patience with the matter (or at least lack of public demonstration of any frustrations). However, your excuse of "I could've done it a better way but...", is exactly what Nony could say, so if it exonerates one of you it exonerates you both (to a certain extent). If you want to do it a better way (or at least as well as you can from this point forwards), I'd take down the conversations between you and Nony (that's private) and the inflammatory parts of some of your posts (like "sportsmanship? think twice!"), and ask Nony to do the same, or if he won't, ask the mods to remove most of this thread, and then take this disagreement to the mods, and away from the public. I'm sure there's a solution possible short of flying F91 to the US (or Nony to China), and it would be more quickly reached behind closed doors. And next time, maybe both players can take FPVODs and then the public will really know which side is which about the lag - no need to argue with that kind of evidence.
On March 23 2009 04:17 archaicon wrote: Hi. Being a third party here as well, my concern is about the unfairness in which Nony left after game 2 and only after apparently when his psi storms failed. Now, some people might say: you only leave when you loose and only then do you blame it on lag if there was any. But looking it from this direction, what if f91 had left after 2 games - and not just after the first - to state that lag is an issue in which everything must be rescheduled and all previous games must be canceled or annuled?
Now, this is all under the assumption that Nony left after game 2 and only after an exceptionally unfortunate encounter between f91's forces and nony's forces. I think what must be done is a publicly disclosed replay of both game 2 and game 1 to see the true extent of this impossible and unplayable lag.
I don't think you can really get a feel for lag conditions from a replay.
Still, can we see a replay of the first two games?
I think that a replay would show whether or not an action trigger would have mattered even if a player had done something (as an response to an opponent).
On March 22 2009 22:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all.
Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone.
Ash was actually pretty civil when recounting the situation the first time. I would have just posted that damn thing first time around and called Nony out to apologize. All that organizing and he just leaves.
On March 23 2009 03:33 IdrA wrote: what are you blithering about no ones stealing his credit, and the vast majority of the time your players do lag with foreigners.
It's not so much about stealing credit as getting an unfair picture of the situation. Most people to might only hear Nony's side of the story, given F91's language barrier. If people side against F91, it's not only his reputation but Fnatic's - which Ash would have a stake in, wouldn't he?
On March 23 2009 03:33 IdrA wrote: its an annoying reality that most players would rather not deal with. believe it or not when players are forced to deal with something like that they get frusterated..
Of course it would be annoying playing under that lag, and Ash acknowledged that. But how frustrating would it be, considering if you were F91, playing an important event, and half way through the second game your opponent leaves, rants something about lag, and log off without an explanation? Why shouldn't F91, and more importantly Ash, who's spend a lot of time organizing this, be frustrated after it gets cut short in such a manner?
On March 23 2009 03:33 IdrA wrote: but nony didnt even say anything personally insulting or even all that rude.
Look @ screenshot again please. It's not that distasteful, sure, but not exactly polite either, is it?
Shit is stirring up, so imho: - Nony, Ash (maybe but not necessarily F91) should sit down with TL staff and sort things out discretely and as adults do - this thread should be temporarily closed until this is resolved. (and apart from a post to elaborate on the results of the debates NonY and Ash should not discuss these events further) - while they are at it, the mods could distribute some bans around this thread...
so we can have an epic, nice and clean LB finale next weekend.
My (more) biased personal opinion: Ash, you are disgracing yourself, NonY, Liquibition, and as manager, F91 as well. After F91 -with great sportsmanship!- agreed to have rematches, you should not have started insulting NonY on these boards, or post private messaging logs (Man, I hope - for his sake- that's not his real messenger email adress you copied several times), calling him a liar several times (I don't care that much about what really happened.), etc. Seriously, what was your intention? Nobody was saying bad things about F91 until you came. You're a manager, and an interpreter helping the clash of these two great players to happen. (and with such, doing a great service for the whole community, that I, and I'm sure everybody else respects and appreciates.) You could have attacked NonY personally via the site's PM system, instant messaging, you could've torn off your posters if you have really lost 10 posts' worth of faith and appreciation for him, you could've torn your bff bracelet, you could have told him your father would surely beat his, but you posted the logs and screenshots you aquired through your official work, and used them for your personal attacks against NonY. In the meanwhile (I know I'm repeating myself so I'll stop) you are disgracing, undermining and plagueing the spirit and the very institute of Liquibition itself. Think about this. In the meanwhile: (I might get banned for this, but I dont mind) f**k you!
On March 23 2009 06:13 538 wrote: Shit is stirring up, so imho: - Nony, Ash (maybe but not necessarily F91) should sit down with TL staff and sort things out discretely and as adults do - this thread should be temporarily closed until this is resolved. (and apart from a post to elaborate on the results of the debates NonY and Ash should not discuss these events further) - while they are at it, the mods could distribute some bans around this thread...
so we can have an epic, nice and clean LB finale next weekend.
My (more) biased personal opinion: Ash, you are disgracing yourself, NonY, Liquibition, and as manager, F91 as well. After F91 -with great sportsmanship!- agreed to have rematches, you should not have started insulting NonY on these boards, or post private messaging logs (Man, I hope - for his sake- that's not his real messenger email adress you copied several times), calling him a liar several times (I don't care that much about what really happened.), etc. Seriously, what was your intention? Nobody was saying bad things about F91 until you came. You're a manager, and an interpreter helping the clash of these two great players to happen. (and with such, doing a great service for the whole community, that I, and I'm sure everybody else respects and appreciates.) You could have attacked NonY personally via the site's PM system, instant messaging, you could've torn off your posters if you have really lost 10 posts' worth of faith and appreciation for him, you could've torn your bff bracelet, you could have told him your father would surely beat his, but you posted the logs and screenshots you aquired through your official work, and used them for your personal attacks against NonY. In the meanwhile (I know I'm repeating myself so I'll stop) you are disgracing, undermining and plagueing the spirit and the very institute of Liquibition itself. Think about this. In the meanwhile: (I might get banned for this, but I dont mind) f**k you!
Ah thanks for the reminder. I've removed the log. I apologize for that. However, I only uploaded the screenshot because I needed to prove that I wasn't twisting the fact like how Nony mentioned I was. There is a reason why I didn't upload the screenshot in the first place only after doing it when nony responded to my post saying that he didn't do so and sounded like I was the one making up the story to make everyone hate him for that. I was upset because I think the games had to be postponed just because of some personal egos after losing games and tried to use lag as an excuse to cover the truth that someone was outplayed thus gaining the whole community sympathy for it and spoiling half of the audience plan on saturday to watch this amazing showmatch.
Once again , I admit I could've settled this better. Now I've had a talk with Nazgul and we shall stop this flame war.
Sorry for those who have been offended by my post once again. I will now stop posting in this thread. Sorry NonY. I hope you can be a little bit more patient the next time we arrange stuff. I stayed up to 3 am together with F91 just to get this series played so we could provide an interesting series for the audience in time to watch. I hope you understand that we could've dealt with the problem easily so please give a little bit more patience next time if anything happens again. Once again, I'm sorry.
I apologize for that. However, I only uploaded the screenshot because I needed to prove that I wasn't twisting the fact like how Nony mentioned I was. There is a reason why I didn't upload the screenshot in the first place only after doing it when nony responded to my post saying that he didn't do so and sounded like I was the one making up the story to make everyone hate him for that. I was upset because I think the games had to be postponed just because of some personal egos after losing games and tried to use lag as an excuse to cover the truth that someone was outplayed thus gaining the whole community sympathy for it.
Twisting the facts? It's two lines of texts with him throwing a curse word to prove his frustration, and saying he's not playing the match. I'm pretty sure both stories line up in some way on that.
Yeah, ego, lag, chinese. It all makes sense now. No wait it doesn't. Thank you for not posting in here anymore ash, I'm going to hold you to that.
You should try to set the games when it's like 6 to 9 P.M. US EASTERN time , just make F91 weak up a bit ealier , then the net should be 99999 times better than the rest of the day
On March 23 2009 06:23 LRM)TechnicS wrote: i think roadrunner didn't get the essense of idra's 1st post too XD
If I were F91 and were used to play in lag in an important match and my opponent is not i will feel pretty comfortable with that edge
Nothing I've argued pertains to whether the lag was acceptable or not.
On March 23 2009 06:30 Divinek wrote: Twisting the facts? It's two lines of texts with him throwing a curse word to prove his frustration, and saying he's not playing the match. I'm pretty sure both stories line up in some way on that.
I suggest you read over what Nony said in his post before jumping to conclusions like this:
On March 23 2009 06:30 Divinek wrote: Yeah, ego, lag, chinese. It all makes sense now. No wait it doesn't. Thank you for not posting in here anymore ash, I'm going to hold you to that.
I apologize for that. However, I only uploaded the screenshot because I needed to prove that I wasn't twisting the fact like how Nony mentioned I was. There is a reason why I didn't upload the screenshot in the first place only after doing it when nony responded to my post saying that he didn't do so and sounded like I was the one making up the story to make everyone hate him for that. I was upset because I think the games had to be postponed just because of some personal egos after losing games and tried to use lag as an excuse to cover the truth that someone was outplayed thus gaining the whole community sympathy for it.
Twisting the facts? It's two lines of texts with him throwing a curse word to prove his frustration, and saying he's not playing the match. I'm pretty sure both stories line up in some way on that.
Yeah, ego, lag, chinese. It all makes sense now. No wait it doesn't. Thank you for not posting in here anymore ash, I'm going to hold you to that.
2 line or 20 lines, it's hardcore proof that Nony lied to everyone here on TL.
I don't think the screenshot would ever surface if Nony hasn't made that denying post.
I apologize for that. However, I only uploaded the screenshot because I needed to prove that I wasn't twisting the fact like how Nony mentioned I was. There is a reason why I didn't upload the screenshot in the first place only after doing it when nony responded to my post saying that he didn't do so and sounded like I was the one making up the story to make everyone hate him for that. I was upset because I think the games had to be postponed just because of some personal egos after losing games and tried to use lag as an excuse to cover the truth that someone was outplayed thus gaining the whole community sympathy for it.
Twisting the facts? It's two lines of texts with him throwing a curse word to prove his frustration, and saying he's not playing the match. I'm pretty sure both stories line up in some way on that.
Yeah, ego, lag, chinese. It all makes sense now. No wait it doesn't. Thank you for not posting in here anymore ash, I'm going to hold you to that.
2 line or 20 lines, it's hardcore proof that Nony lied to everyone here on TL.
I don't think the screenshot would ever surface if Nony hasn't made that denying post.
Yeah, cause its totally impossible that he forgot he didn't just curse out loud (I'd be disappointed in him if he didn't do that at least:-p), but also typed it in. (Being unable to play due to lag in a stressful match can be just as unpleasant as staying up till 3 am to have the opponent leave on you) No, I'm sure it was a deliberate lie to the community, and the bastard was trying to get away with it, lynch him.
You're just a pathetic vulture needing and enjoying this highschool drama. Actually I even gave you too much by just responding.
I'm done with this thread before (?) I get myself banned. Have fun, see you during the cast.
I cannot say anything about the time. I don't know f91 personally and what his time arrangement is. But fnatic played a lot of cws around that time so he probably is used to it..
I apologize for that. However, I only uploaded the screenshot because I needed to prove that I wasn't twisting the fact like how Nony mentioned I was. There is a reason why I didn't upload the screenshot in the first place only after doing it when nony responded to my post saying that he didn't do so and sounded like I was the one making up the story to make everyone hate him for that. I was upset because I think the games had to be postponed just because of some personal egos after losing games and tried to use lag as an excuse to cover the truth that someone was outplayed thus gaining the whole community sympathy for it.
Twisting the facts? It's two lines of texts with him throwing a curse word to prove his frustration, and saying he's not playing the match. I'm pretty sure both stories line up in some way on that.
Yeah, ego, lag, chinese. It all makes sense now. No wait it doesn't. Thank you for not posting in here anymore ash, I'm going to hold you to that.
What are you talking about It is undeniable that nony didnt say the truth: really short summary Ash says: Nony said "fuck i shouldnt have agreed on playing chinese" nony says " I never would have said anything like 'fuck'" Turns out he did, how can anybody not see that
I really dont blame nony for having been angry about lag, in case it really was lagging properly (which im not sure but who knows, word against word) but in that instance he's just lying, im not saying hes lying about something of extreme importance but he's still lying.
Ash went too far by attacking nony to the extent he did but lets face it nony and ash were both pissed off and did things they shouldnt have done the way they did it.
People should stop immediately hating on either side because both sides were understandable, everybody has the right to agree with one side more than the other just like I do but come on be fucking reasonable. anyways I hope this is resolved now and I certainly hope well have some good games.
On March 22 2009 07:23 Mobius wrote: i wonder if f91 is as gosu without lag
Chinese gamers can play with or without lag, several foreigners made that painful experience at PGL or WCG, including Nony. Maybe F91 has an advantage with lag though.
but hes definately used to lag, whereas nony isnt. soooo.. not to mention koreans dont have to put up withthat
I dont understand why Nony has to get angry about anything. Its just a game why cant they just talk about the lag and realize theres a problem and discuss it normally. But theres always anger and harsh comments...
On March 23 2009 07:32 LRM)TechnicS wrote: anyway I hope things to find their right place and we witness some epic games ^__^
If the match really went off next sunday. This will be totaly epic. This is THE MOST HYPED game ever! I thought the Idra vs f91 was hyped, but obviously we havn't seen anything yet.
Maybe, just maybe, none of these actually happened. It was a plan to hype up the event?
imo I dont think this series should be played... whoever wins is going to have an excuse... F91(ash) would say he was already up 2-0... NonY will say lag sux etc...
I think Ash has been quite honest in his intentions and in his message.
Which, based on that screenshot, is more than I can say for Nony. He gets caught in his own lies and immediately tries to spin the wrongdoing onto Ash? For what? Screenshotting a convo when there was no admin around? Please.
I don't claim to know either party involved but it is shameful the way you guys are unfairly attacking Ash for standing up for his friend.
On March 23 2009 08:44 hauton wrote: I don't claim to know either party involved but it is shameful the way you guys are unfairly attacking Ash for standing up for his friend.
Except his friend hasn't been attacked once in the thread.
On March 23 2009 08:44 hauton wrote: I don't claim to know either party involved but it is shameful the way you guys are unfairly attacking Ash for standing up for his friend.
Except his friend hasn't been attacked once in the thread.
Don't twist my words... when did I say people were attacking F91 in this thread? Please read.
Ash is standing up for F91 because he feels the way the way this went down, especially Nony's behaviour, was unfair to F91. That's why he spoke up. Not as F91's manager, not as F91's representative. But as F91's friend. Just like fans of Nony are speaking up and fans of F91 are speaking up. He has that right.
Whether you agree with what he's saying is an entire different subject. IMO, based on what I've read and seen, both parties made real concessions to try to get this event to work. But frankly, Nony could've dealt with the lag problem in a much better way, and it was quite BM the way he stormed out. The fact that he bold-faced lied about it in this thread further compounds my poor view of Nony in this situation.
On March 22 2009 22:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all.
Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone.
F*** , you got owned bad!
3:0 to F91
I can't believe anyone would defend Nony or attack Ash after this. Look, if I were Ash, I'd be pretty damn pissed about it. And probably would've written a more vicious rant afterwards. Even if Nony forgot what he said in the heat of the moment(which is perfectly fine), he should at least not just outright deny the accusation. Say something like "I forgot what I did. If I did use the word fuck I apologize". Something like that.
That said, I hope all parties kiss and make up because there really is no point in dragging this out more. Ash, just let it go. It really isn't worth it. Talk with the TL.net staff and see how you should move forward from here.
IMHO I think you should just cancel this Liquibition. If non-Chinese foreigners can't handle the lag, either no more Chinese players in the future or just Chinese vs. Chinese in the future.
On March 22 2009 22:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all.
Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone.
F*** , you got owned bad!
3:0 to F91
I can't believe anyone would defend Nony or attack Ash after this. Look, if I were Ash, I'd be pretty damn pissed about it. And probably would've written a more vicious rant afterwards. Even if Nony forgot what he said in the heat of the moment(which is perfectly fine), he should at least not just outright deny the accusation. Say something like "I forgot what I did. If I did use the word fuck I apologize". Something like that.
That said, I hope all parties kiss and make up because there really is no point in dragging this out more. Ash, just let it go. It really isn't worth it. Talk with the TL.net staff and see how you should move forward from here.
IMHO I think you should just cancel this Liquibition. If non-Chinese foreigners can't handle the lag, either no more Chinese players in the future or just Chinese vs. Chinese in the future.
seriously this few typed lines are seriously drawn out of their context
he says: fuck it i'm not playing ==> ACCORDING to lag, reschedule if u want if there's no lag then he says: dont know why i agreed to play a chinese player ==> like djeeze i should have known better im a 100% with nony on this and shame on you ash for blowing it up like this it seems some people are not to familiar with the american/english language
Many props to F91 -for agreeing to the 3am series. -for being able to play with and without lag -agreeing to the score reset after going 2-0
Props to NonY also for sticking out that first and most of 2nd game despite the lag.
Also, I for one would love to continue seeing more Chinese players, the lag problems can only get better from here as China's communication infrastructure is no doubt being slowly upgraded.
Here's to hoping for the the issue to be resolved and epic games.
I don't understand why there's such a big discussion here. It's well-known that nony is not exactly mannered. It's also well-known that a lot of people here at TL are fans of Nony nonetheless and will take his side whatever it is that's being discussed. There's no point in arguing unless you were in the game and thus able to judge how bad of a lag there really was or if it was just Nony's play that was bad. As for me, this whole discussion strikes me as a typical Nony-discussion on TL: admins and North Americans defending him against Europeans' accusations. Boring, biased, and totally senseless. Waste of time. I even regret wasting the minutes these lines take me to write. Stop plskthx.
mh great seems like everything that had to be said for now was said but no of course there's a bunch of people who apparently only just joined TL to state how much nony sucks...way to go people this is really gonna help..
On March 22 2009 22:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all.
Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone.
F*** , you got owned bad!
3:0 to F91
I can't believe anyone would defend Nony or attack Ash after this. Look, if I were Ash, I'd be pretty damn pissed about it. And probably would've written a more vicious rant afterwards. Even if Nony forgot what he said in the heat of the moment(which is perfectly fine), he should at least not just outright deny the accusation. Say something like "I forgot what I did. If I did use the word fuck I apologize". Something like that.
That said, I hope all parties kiss and make up because there really is no point in dragging this out more. Ash, just let it go. It really isn't worth it. Talk with the TL.net staff and see how you should move forward from here.
IMHO I think you should just cancel this Liquibition. If non-Chinese foreigners can't handle the lag, either no more Chinese players in the future or just Chinese vs. Chinese in the future.
seriously this few typed lines are seriously drawn out of their context
he says: fuck it i'm not playing ==> ACCORDING to lag, reschedule if u want if there's no lag then he says: dont know why i agreed to play a chinese player ==> like djeeze i should have known better im a 100% with nony on this and shame on you ash for blowing it up like this it seems some people are not to familiar with the american/english language
This is some horrible spinning. How are you actually trying to twist 2 simple straightforward sentences. It doesn't take an American to understand that. Any foreign school children with some EFL class can figure it out.
Hence, why Nony trying to deny it is so ridiculous. And as an American I'm actually quite annoyed by him and Idra representing my country. I mean, it's not as if I don't get enough flak for trying to explain to foreigners(as in non-Americans) why my country has Dubya for 8 years.
I am not a big noony fan . Remember before he went to PGL said something like he will at least not lose to chinese player. Then he got owned so bad by eva and super in LAN. You don't have ball to admit what you said this time, not to mention the 2 games you have lost. So I am 100% with ash
On March 22 2009 22:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all.
Yes, I was short about it and it was easy to tell I was impatient, but I didn't use bad language or insult anyone.
F*** , you got owned bad!
3:0 to F91
I can't believe anyone would defend Nony or attack Ash after this. Look, if I were Ash, I'd be pretty damn pissed about it. And probably would've written a more vicious rant afterwards. Even if Nony forgot what he said in the heat of the moment(which is perfectly fine), he should at least not just outright deny the accusation. Say something like "I forgot what I did. If I did use the word fuck I apologize". Something like that.
That said, I hope all parties kiss and make up because there really is no point in dragging this out more. Ash, just let it go. It really isn't worth it. Talk with the TL.net staff and see how you should move forward from here.
IMHO I think you should just cancel this Liquibition. If non-Chinese foreigners can't handle the lag, either no more Chinese players in the future or just Chinese vs. Chinese in the future.
seriously this few typed lines are seriously drawn out of their context
he says: fuck it i'm not playing ==> ACCORDING to lag, reschedule if u want if there's no lag then he says: dont know why i agreed to play a chinese player ==> like djeeze i should have known better im a 100% with nony on this and shame on you ash for blowing it up like this it seems some people are not to familiar with the american/english language
You're an obvious NonY fan. That's all you've proven.
It's ridiculous how you're trying to twist this whole thing into NonY's favour and I find it quite pathetic that you're doing that. What is said is said, you seem to be a bit paranoid that NonY is a BM guy, and because of your ignorance you don't realize NonY actually has a history of it much like IdrA. Don't kid yourself, both of them are extremely skilled and you can learn a lot from watching them play, but I haven't become obsessed like 90% of TL members.
I think what annoys a lot of people is what i perceive as a pretty arrogant tone always coming fron Nony and Idra in a lot of posts. I don't understand it really, its only a game yet they seem completely uptight about it. A reasonable person might just say, ok sorry but the lag is unplayable so we should try to fix this before continuing not have pointless angry outbursts. F91 can't speak english so leaving like that immediately is probably kind of annoying.
god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
How are there so many people with post counts under 10 in this thread... not that I'm a 'veteran' on the site either, but... if you really needed to make an account just to post in this thread, just do it with your real account. I feel like no real new member would pick this thread to start from, or at least no smart ones.
Luckily this is Nony's fansite so he will get away lightly, but I think this is very unprofessional behavior.
If it lags you leave early, after < 4 minutes at least. You don't play 2 games, lose, and then go "Oh lagg, we can't play like this". The lagg would have affected F91 aswell (even if it affects races differently), so he must have thought it was playable conditions.
If this was Idra playing F91 you would not believe the amount of flak comming his way at this time. Be a professional audience, be objective and don't try to blame all previous F91 wins on lagg, now that the opportunity presents itself.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
No he wasnt instulting them, but how can writing that and then leaving, instead of properly asking for a rematch not be rude I mean surely your standards of politeness aren't that high so im not sure youre the right person to talk about what bm and not.. Also no matter if it was insulting or not, nony still lied about not having said it.
however people shoudlnt blow this out of proportion and starting accounts to state that you think nony sucks is incredibly constructive but maybe you should stop despite of that... Even though im more on Ashs side on this one I kinda have to agree with this:
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas
So here's nony's probalistic behavior during those first 2 games.
Instead of doing this: -"oh shit -"there's lag -"I'm going to leave and postpone this
Nony did:
-"oh shit -"there's lag -"I'm going to go ahead and play this. if i win, f91 probably is too well mannered to complain about it -"but if i loose, i'll TOTALLY complain about it
Now, any respectable observer will see this and post about it and this is exactly what ash has done. And what did you do? you attacked ash for bringing this to light.
Mondragon even said during his tl attack that you were bm
Mondragon said during TL Attack season 2 episode 4 mondragon, "oh yeah, it's nony.' ... Chill, "so rage you had the right scent... but the talking just covered it up. the trash talk..." ... Chill (to Mondragon), "I heard the word on the street is that you ... don't really get along with each other" mondragon, "yeah it's probably true" chill, "and what's the cause of that" mondragon "well, i don't like his behavior when he looses and stuff. It's not really appropriate"
and now you post that you're trying to show 100% transparency and so when ash posts the evidence, you attack him?
On March 22 2009 23:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: The purpose of the news post, I think, is just to inform people with 100% transparency.
On March 23 2009 02:46 Ash wrote: Picture shows thousands of words so I'm not gonna talk about how you actually left the server immediately after game 2. The screenshot is enough proof to show that you didn't mention a thing about what you posted except for some bad language and rescheduling possibility.
And now when you say "FUCK, I should have never agreed to play..." , you deny saying fuck in front of everyone??
Jesus christ! and this guy is going to get away with leaving the game, right in the middle of it?
Don't go around telling people what to do and what not to do you stupid self-indulging, rule-breaking brat! Ash did what anyone would have done had they also observed the situation!
And this... another attack on ash that is completely false! I can't even believe he has the nerve to do this and get everyone else to think ash is wrong and he is right!;
On March 22 2009 23:03 Liquid`NonY wrote: Your job is NOT to coerce your player's opponent into playing a match. Your job is NOT to question your player's opponent's decision. Your job is NOT to antagonize your player's opponent..
You're lucky chinese ppl like Ash who lives in Malaysia are willing to postpone and reset the entire 2-0 counter! Any other manager or team would have done something entirely different, like an automatic win for leaving the game!!
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
clearly it wasnt bad by f91s standards this discussion has been had 3 times already in this thread alone
F91 is the champ, beat him on his conditions or get out of the way for other challengers.
And for gods sake don't leave after 1.5 games...
Playing one game = agreeing to lag conditions. Starting next game = agreeing to lag conditions. Quitting midgame because of lag = incredibly stupid and bm.
complain/refuse to play at the beginning or don't at all.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
How are Chinese players used to playing in lag everyday? They have their own offlines, their own server and when they are on ICCUP due to their time zone they play against other asian countries.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
Hope theyre gonna get some nice relatively low ping games done
I gotta say though, despite being annoyed by all the people immediately starting to hate on one side, this whole thing makes the whole liquibition even way more hyped up and exciting ^^
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
This is why I have no desire to follow your progress in korea. You give a bad image to american gamers in korea. You don't understand what is BM and what isn't. I understand you are just acting your age, but it doesn't excuse it. There is a professional way of going about things, and swearing and closing down the game is not one of them.
I would have more respect for nony if the screenshot showed "Hey, this lag is really becoming an issue, can we reschedule?" Saying fuck it and signing off is trashy behavior. Why TL would even have a rematch is beyond me. Find a new player who would appreciate the opportunity and move on.
On March 23 2009 16:56 bludragen88 wrote: How are there so many people with post counts under 10 in this thread... not that I'm a 'veteran' on the site either, but... if you really needed to make an account just to post in this thread, just do it with your real account. I feel like no real new member would pick this thread to start from, or at least no smart ones.
This means these international events are attracting players in other countries to TL.net. Which is a good thing both for TL and the foreign SC community.
With SC2 coming out, the more ppl come to TL.net, the better it will get.
On March 23 2009 21:37 Chill wrote: Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
Seriously, this post just shows you have NEVER played inside China before and you just assumed that ppl in China are used to lag. Some people might be creating drama when there is none, but you are creating "facts" when there are none.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
This is why I have no desire to follow your progress in korea. You give a bad image to american gamers in korea. You don't understand what is BM and what isn't. I understand you are just acting your age, but it doesn't excuse it. There is a professional way of going about things, and swearing and closing down the game is not one of them.
I would have more respect for nony if the screenshot showed "Hey, this lag is really becoming an issue, can we reschedule?" Saying fuck it and signing off is trashy behavior. Why TL would even have a rematch is beyond me. Find a new player who would appreciate the opportunity and move on.
the fact that he said a naughty word gets your panties in a bunch and you're implying im immature? you can sit there bitching and moaning all you want. fact is when you're playing a competitive match and you're forced to play in shitty conditions its gonna frusterate anyone. strelok is by all accounts one of the best mannered foreigners, and he said he hoped hed never have to play a chinese player in a tournament again cuz of lag and latency issues after the match vs f91. nony did not take his frusterations out on either ash or f91, whats the big deal?
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
this is totally not ture and just your own assumpsion, In china ,they have several league played almost every week and there are lots of offlines/onlines game event, let me just give you some of the name: offline games: IEF, PGL, CHINA-KOREA friendly, NEOTV Star League, PLU Live, G-League (online game at cellectiving phase , offline games at final stage), not to mention hundreds of small offline events in different cities. the thing you said Chinese people can play in lag before they used to playing in ti everyday is not really ture. there are online games/offline games almost 50%-50%, and people prefer fast speed and no lag of course, and the connection between china-china and china-korean is not that lag as you saw it. that's the environment chinese gamers played everyday!
Okay, obviously I was implying the connection speed between China and the rest foreign world. I'm not meaning to create facts - laggy countries have more experience with lag. Shocker!
that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
On March 24 2009 00:48 Ash wrote: They tried the connection today again. This time nony says it's fine and the games will be played some time within this week. Hope for an epic clash.
On March 24 2009 00:48 Ash wrote: They tried the connection today again. This time nony says it's fine and the games will be played some time within this week. Hope for an epic clash.
Here it comes! The greatest clash so far in Liquibition!!!!
On March 23 2009 23:37 IdrA wrote: the fact that he said a naughty word gets your panties in a bunch and you're implying im immature? you can sit there bitching and moaning all you want. fact is when you're playing a competitive match and you're forced to play in shitty conditions its gonna frusterate anyone. strelok is by all accounts one of the best mannered foreigners, and he said he hoped hed never have to play a chinese player in a tournament again cuz of lag and latency issues after the match vs f91. nony did not take his frusterations out on either ash or f91, whats the big deal?
Yes it is a big deal. It is your job, you, and nony, should work as professionals. When I am sitting in a meeting and there are technical issues holding things up, I don't get up and say fuck it and walk out. That is how you lose a job.
Hopefully you will learn this lesson before your team lets you go for the bad image you are creating.
On March 23 2009 23:37 IdrA wrote: the fact that he said a naughty word gets your panties in a bunch and you're implying im immature? you can sit there bitching and moaning all you want. fact is when you're playing a competitive match and you're forced to play in shitty conditions its gonna frusterate anyone. strelok is by all accounts one of the best mannered foreigners, and he said he hoped hed never have to play a chinese player in a tournament again cuz of lag and latency issues after the match vs f91. nony did not take his frusterations out on either ash or f91, whats the big deal?
Yes it is a big deal. It is your job, you, and nony, should work as professionals. When I am sitting in a meeting and there are technical issues holding things up, I don't get up and say fuck it and walk out. That is how you lose a job.
Hopefully you will learn this lesson before your team lets you go for the bad image you are creating.
g
Um. Looking professional to the foreign community has no bearing on Idra.
On March 24 2009 00:48 Ash wrote: They tried the connection today again. This time nony says it's fine and the games will be played some time within this week. Hope for an epic clash.
This is the only post meaningful in the whole thread. Let's hope for epic games.
I just want to say that I respect TL and what you guys are tryin to do, but I think you guys can do better.
Not sure what goes on behind the scenes, but you guys should at least have a ref / admin / whatever present and logged on when you are trying to run a major event.
Second, most of your events that I've seen usually involve some sort of prize money paid out to the winner, and sometimes the loser just for participating. Why not attach some strings to that prize money that say you have to be GM when competing in a TL event? People being BM and acting rude would get fined and have their winnings cut. I bet BM in your events would be non-existent and people would treat each other with respect.
Just throwing some ideas out there. Keep up the good work guys!
Wow, this thread has really brought out the worst in people. And by that I don't mean the people it concerns but random idiots whos scream and whine for something they shouldn't even care about.
There are some very angry people on this side of the pond that looks down on Nony and american players because they see them as rivals too their precious Draco, White-RA, Strelok. Don't get me wrong, I love watching these players and greatly respect their skill and the effort they put in to be among the best. The ones I have a problem with is the fans that blindly follow just one or a few players and hate everyone else. It's like you're retarded sports fans that love your team but hates everyone else just because people told you that's how it works. Grow up and learn to appreciate all top players for their skill and dedication, Whether or not you like their personality.
Also you people need to STOP relating other europeans (like myself) with yourself because this is not europe vs america. This is a few crazy people vs the sane majority.
Nony has always been bitchy about lag, even in his VODs. It's one thing to play without normal battle.net latency or with actual lag spikes, but if the game worked with high lan latency, a foreign player should have nothing to complain about.
Complaining that lag makes it hard to cast storm? Not that F91 actually has to try and dodge the storm in lag. Or even worse, complaining that F91 is abusing the lag simply by sending his units to attack? Was Nony born a gosu yesterday?
Then he lies in a post, gets called out on it, but still tries to defend himself. As far as i'm concerned Nony still has a lot to prove, and he doesn't have much right to act all high and mighty when far more established players can deal with issues like this much more maturely.
On March 24 2009 05:44 Devilbat wrote: nony has rights to refuse the game if its laggy but he could do it much more manner.
The things he did now its just like piss off the Liquibition so badly
Dose he still have the right to refuse the game after he lost 2 and demand a fresh rematch? I mean comon, it's more like trying to find an excuse for his loses right?
On March 24 2009 00:48 Ash wrote: They tried the connection today again. This time nony says it's fine and the games will be played some time within this week. Hope for an epic clash.
Yay! <3
Thanks for everyone who had the patience to make this possible.
Can't wait for the rematch without the lag issues so both parties will have nothing to put the blame on, though I somewhat doubt it.
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
I'm more inclined to believe both of you are full of shit.
A) There is no doubt in my mind that the lag gives F91 somewhat of an unfair advantage. The Pro 91 people underestimate this advantage, and the Pro Nony people overrestimate this advantage.
B) Given the advantage and the fact that it's simply an exhibition, both players should be thankful to play a fellow top player thousands of miles away. F91 has been more than courteous, agreeing to play at 3am, offering to start 0-0. Nony seems ungrateful for the chance to play F91, and seems far too competitive and bent on winning, given the nature of the EXHIBITIION event. This event should be a chance to meet foreign top players, share strategies, improve oneself. Nony has shown signs of disdain for Chinese players, which is unsportsmanlike.
C) Ash has been very aggressive, but I think he was emotional because he felt F91 was being picked on because of his lag and lack of english.
D) I think what has people bashing Nony is just that his manner has come across as rather snobbish, as if he's too high for Chinese players. In actuality, i'm sure Nony has nothing particular against Chinese players or people, but lets his emotions get in the way of his manner. However, it's quite rude to invite Chinese players to come play in our exhibition, then treat them coldly if they win or if they lag.
On March 24 2009 08:39 zhuangcorp wrote: However, it's quite rude to invite Chinese players to come play in our exhibition, then treat them coldly if they win or if they lag.
Very true. This is probably where a lot of the hostility on the part of Ash & Co. comes from.
On March 23 2009 23:56 Chill wrote: Okay, obviously I was implying the connection speed between China and the rest foreign world. I'm not meaning to create facts - laggy countries have more experience with lag. Shocker!
I don't claim to know the facts behind everything. Despite the fact that I do live in China, I have not played any starcraft here and really has no clue about the Chinese SC community(I'm not a Chinese native speaker).
But your claim is based on a very important assumption, which I don't feel has been substantiated. You say that laggy countries have more experience with lag, yet it takes two to tango. That is, it requires a western player and a laggy-Chinese player to create a laggy match. So for your statement to be correct, there has to be a much higher number of western players than Chinese(and any other country within this circle of lagginess) players who are willing to play in laggy conditions.
And if this thread is any indication, people in the west don't really play with the Chinese. That Chinese SC players mostly play themselves. So there's an inherent contradiction. If so-called non-laggy countries don't play Chinese players, how are Chinese players more familiar with lag?
Complaining that lag makes it hard to cast storm? Not that F91 actually has to try and dodge the storm in lag. Or even worse, complaining that F91 is abusing the lag simply by sending his units to attack?
Fuck it. Here "it" means the situation that Idra and Nony cannot shut up.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
On March 23 2009 23:56 Chill wrote: Okay, obviously I was implying the connection speed between China and the rest foreign world. I'm not meaning to create facts - laggy countries have more experience with lag. Shocker!
I don't claim to know the facts behind everything. Despite the fact that I do live in China, I have not played any starcraft here and really has no clue about the Chinese SC community(I'm not a Chinese native speaker).
But your claim is based on a very important assumption, which I don't feel has been substantiated. You say that laggy countries have more experience with lag, yet it takes two to tango. That is, it requires a western player and a laggy-Chinese player to create a laggy match. So for your statement to be correct, there has to be a much higher number of western players than Chinese(and any other country within this circle of lagginess) players who are willing to play in laggy conditions.
And if this thread is any indication, people in the west don't really play with the Chinese. That Chinese SC players mostly play themselves. So there's an inherent contradiction. If so-called non-laggy countries don't play Chinese players, how are Chinese players more familiar with lag?
I'm not entirely sure of the situation facing Chinese players either but here is my guess:
- Most players play on ICC for the majority of their games. - The majority of ICC players are not Chinese. - Let's take a guess and say 1 in 4 players (25%) on ICC are Chinese. - Thus, assuming each player chooses his opponents fairly randomly with regards to their location the non-Chinese players should only run into Chinese players 25% thus only 25% of their games are under lag. Chinese players however would have 75% of their games be subject to adverse lag because they only get consistently lag free games with other Chinese players.
Now, my reasoning could be completely off since I'm tired as hell and sick to boot but it makes sense at the moment.
On March 23 2009 15:48 IdrA wrote: god damn you people are a bunch of sandy vaginas he didnt say fuck to ash or f91, he wasnt insulting them or being rude to them. 'fuck it' just means he was fed up with the situation, hence he was leaving. saying he shouldntve agreed to play chinese in the first place is pretty much just echoing the sentiments of strelok after his match vs f91, why arent you jumping on his ass for that? hell thats the same thing just about every foreigner says after playing with chinese players online.
Clearly, the lag wasn't too bad at least from what f91 said in the screenshot. he said "go nony" means the game was playable for him. And when ash asked "is it still lagging?" F91: He(nony) said "still lags" (means OK for F91)
Lol. Use your head. Of course Chinese people can play in lag their used to playing in it every day.
People are trying to create drama when there is none. They're going to fix the lag and replay the series. Get over it.
No, we don't play in lag everyday, actually we don't agree to play in lag at all. How on earth would you think chinese people have different "lag standard" from you?
We played in B.net latency for years, and now cannot bear to play in that latency anymore just because LAN latency is more used? This doesn't make any sense. Plus, Nony have played 1.5 games and quit because of "the LAG", it seems to be totally BM to me.
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
Just like 10 games then you say chinese is more used to play with lag? Maybe its because F91 is more professional player than you, he just want to bring the most beautiful games to the audience inspite of lag.
And why are you calling China "the lag land"? I mean if you consider how big China is, Europe is almost the same size as China. Europians don't lag with each other. Chinese don't lag with each other. When it comes to across the continents, the lag comes. To see replays from ToT vs Korea, most of them have to set the latency to high and let the obs out in order not to play laggy. And according to my iCCup play, I can play most Europian and American in high or extra high latency, most Korean in low latency, and my connection is very common in China.
I'm not denying that Chinese internet is worse than Korea and western countries, but it's not fair that we being called lagger.
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
hehe idra trying to group himself with nony now, trying to blame the lag as a group
in that last game where you sent marines into mutas with no medics whatsoever, I suppose that's cus of lag too huh?
On March 24 2009 08:39 zhuangcorp wrote: However, it's quite rude to invite Chinese players to come play in our exhibition, then treat them coldly if they win or if they lag.
Very true. This is probably where a lot of the hostility on the part of Ash & Co. comes from.
Yes because alot of the teamliquid gosus bitch constantly about chinese lag , I was shocked when it happend and everbody was upset/shocked.
I think it was awesome to bridge the communities. I don't think anybody can be upset about chinese lag when after all these years, I can say "Are you chinese?" on iccup with 85% accuracy just because of how it feels.
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
hehe idra trying to group himself with nony now, trying to blame the lag as a group
in that last game where you sent marines into mutas with no medics whatsoever, I suppose that's cus of lag too huh?
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
hehe idra trying to group himself with nony now, trying to blame the lag as a group
in that last game where you sent marines into mutas with no medics whatsoever, I suppose that's cus of lag too huh?
WEAK
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit i said the speed was fine after i kicked mani, and i never ever used the lag as an excuse, i didnt even mention it all until mani did. but f91 claimed he didnt feel lag before i kicked mani, and it was definitely there. the same thing happens with nony. you can claim we're both lying, but is strelok and.... every single other foreigner who has ever played a game with a chinese player lying as well?
Now that I've posted my opinion on the treatment of the chinese players. I will also post realistically.
Chill is 100% dead on.
F91 had to play a series against oystein for a gosugamers (I think) tour.
Both games were played under very laggy/slow conditions. F91 used builds both games that completely exploited the lag. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it.
But when you go 3 hat muta timing and have the mechanics and timing to pull it off very well, and you have 9 muta + 4 scourge fly into tosses main and your scourge arrive late while the mutas tackle both cannons, it is IMPOSSIBLE to move those cosairs in time. They react very badly on regular lan lat.
Also he went for a runby in another game. Any protoss player can attest to how bloody easy it is to overclick in excess lag and mess up an early probe block.
I think it is inteligent to use whatever ingame situation you can to win. Anything else would be retarded. BUT if nony or another player facing f91 can't say "ok there will be lag" and train themselves to play on extra high or even battle.net to prepare for the reality of an upcomming match then they flat out do not deserve to win.
Oh ya for people questioning it, Protoss and Terran are way more effected by lag then zerg. Dodging storm is rough, but in lag its slower and easier to start moving ahead of time, while casting a storm is (and I don't know why) super super delayed in extra high or bnet latency.
Responding to muta harass, fighting lurkers, irradiating defilers/lurkers... everything is VERY hard to do against zerg in bad conditions. The only advantage protoss and terran gleam from any lag is bbs and 99 almost can not lose against a 12 hat.
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
hehe idra trying to group himself with nony now, trying to blame the lag as a group
in that last game where you sent marines into mutas with no medics whatsoever, I suppose that's cus of lag too huh?
WEAK
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit i said the speed was fine after i kicked mani, and i never ever used the lag as an excuse, i didnt even mention it all until mani did. but f91 claimed he didnt feel lag before i kicked mani, and it was definitely there. the same thing happens with nony. you can claim we're both lying, but is strelok and.... every single other foreigner who has ever played a game with a chinese player lying as well?
who has ever? are you saying the chinese lags every game? even though you just said yourself the speed is fine after?
and you don't even know why you're called weak - you think it's cus you lose, it's not, you're weak cus you're weak-minded. instead of throwing a fit at losing liquibition (not even regular liquibition), which is random peanuts, you shoulda accepted it and learn from the loss (instead of finding excuses). You get pissed off at things both big and small without fail, you got no system at all.
your prob is cus you got no confidence. I still kinda remember the stuff people posted before you went to korea, some sad stuff really, calling you a gaming nerd, etc. Really shallow stuff, and you bow down to that crap is why you're weak. And look at you now, still the same old pissy terran, it's like you never left USA.
On March 24 2009 14:36 IdrA wrote: shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit i said the speed was fine after i kicked mani, and i never ever used the lag as an excuse, i didnt even mention it all until mani did. but f91 claimed he didnt feel lag before i kicked mani, and it was definitely there. the same thing happens with nony. you can claim we're both lying, but is strelok and.... every single other foreigner who has ever played a game with a chinese player lying as well?
Plz, moderator do something, allow only people concerned to write in this thread, cause this became some kind of huge bitching thread and its horrible, either close it or start banning people who are flamming plz.
On March 24 2009 08:39 zhuangcorp wrote: However, it's quite rude to invite Chinese players to come play in our exhibition, then treat them coldly if they win or if they lag.
Very true. This is probably where a lot of the hostility on the part of Ash & Co. comes from.
Yes because alot of the teamliquid gosus bitch constantly about chinese lag , I was shocked when it happend and everbody was upset/shocked.
I think it was awesome to bridge the communities. I don't think anybody can be upset about chinese lag when after all these years, I can say "Are you chinese?" on iccup with 85% accuracy just because of how it feels.
I was wondering the same thing ever since F91 was first invited to play. Especially since the TSL eliminated Chinese players for lagging reason. This isn't some new problem. But since TL.net did invite F91, and Strelok/Idra/Nony/JF all agreed to play him, I naturally figured that the lag wasn't really a problem for such exhibition games.
On March 23 2009 23:56 Chill wrote: Okay, obviously I was implying the connection speed between China and the rest foreign world. I'm not meaning to create facts - laggy countries have more experience with lag. Shocker!
I don't claim to know the facts behind everything. Despite the fact that I do live in China, I have not played any starcraft here and really has no clue about the Chinese SC community(I'm not a Chinese native speaker).
But your claim is based on a very important assumption, which I don't feel has been substantiated. You say that laggy countries have more experience with lag, yet it takes two to tango. That is, it requires a western player and a laggy-Chinese player to create a laggy match. So for your statement to be correct, there has to be a much higher number of western players than Chinese(and any other country within this circle of lagginess) players who are willing to play in laggy conditions.
And if this thread is any indication, people in the west don't really play with the Chinese. That Chinese SC players mostly play themselves. So there's an inherent contradiction. If so-called non-laggy countries don't play Chinese players, how are Chinese players more familiar with lag?
I'm not entirely sure of the situation facing Chinese players either but here is my guess: - Most players play on ICC for the majority of their games.
Now, my reasoning could be completely off since I'm tired as hell and sick to boot but it makes sense at the moment.
From what I've read in this thread, this doesn't seem to be the case. Chinese generally play against the Chinese. And I can attest that the internet within China is very fast and no more problematic than the US. It really is the government firewall that's fucking up connections with other parts of the world.
Here is a nice story about a (formerly) rich friend of mine that I'd thought I share. Hopefully some people can see what he can't.
Jeff was great with the stock market, as was his father. Every year up until the the recession that we are currently, he was always increasing his family's wealth by stock trading. Near the end of 2006, he had amassed nearly 4.6 million dollars in stocks and bonds. His father was now retired and nothing could go wrong. I was just happy that I knew a millionaire. Being the arrogant brat I always knew he was he decided to quit school and travel the world while being confident that his stock trading wit would carry him through life. That was a few years ago.
When the market took a turn for the worst, he lost everything. Since all his wealth was in stock and bonds, when they devalued, so did his wealth.
Now he is currently living in my (nice) basement , paying $400 a month rent it. He is also working at a local restaurant and going back to school. Every now and then he rants about how mad he is about how things turned out, how he wasn't used to be limited financially, how it isn't fair this to have happened to him.
I said to him "look at the bright side, there's people starving in Africa. You still have food on the table and a house to live in."
He simply replied, "they're use to it."
And I think to myself, "they're not used to it. They just deal with it the best they can because it's part of life."
I think this story is a great analogy to this lag fiasco because no one wants to lag, but some people understand that lag is part of online gaming, like being poor is sometimes part of life. Maybe one day no one will lag online anymore, but I can also guarantee that when that days comes, no one will starve anymore, either.
On March 23 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote: that doesnt change the fact that they are signifcantly more used to playing in lag then the average foreigner. after both my match and the one vs nony he said he didnt feel lag while we both did.
hehe idra trying to group himself with nony now, trying to blame the lag as a group
in that last game where you sent marines into mutas with no medics whatsoever, I suppose that's cus of lag too huh?
WEAK
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit i said the speed was fine after i kicked mani, and i never ever used the lag as an excuse, i didnt even mention it all until mani did. but f91 claimed he didnt feel lag before i kicked mani, and it was definitely there. the same thing happens with nony. you can claim we're both lying, but is strelok and.... every single other foreigner who has ever played a game with a chinese player lying as well?
who has ever? are you saying the chinese lags every game? even though you just said yourself the speed is fine after?
and you don't even know why you're called weak - you think it's cus you lose, it's not, you're weak cus you're weak-minded. instead of throwing a fit at losing liquibition (not even regular liquibition), which is random peanuts, you shoulda accepted it and learn from the loss (instead of finding excuses). You get pissed off at things both big and small without fail, you got no system at all.
your prob is cus you got no confidence. I still kinda remember the stuff people posted before you went to korea, some sad stuff really, calling you a gaming nerd, etc. Really shallow stuff, and you bow down to that crap is why you're weak. And look at you now, still the same old pissy terran, it's like you never left USA.
i said it was fine, i didnt say it was good. fine means acceptable. and yes, the fact that one game a chinese player was involved in was playable definitely means that every other foreigner whos played with them has been lying...... ? dumbass
what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to f91. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
On March 24 2009 16:23 ZeitgeistMovie wrote: Here is a nice story about a (formerly) rich friend of mine that I'd thought I share. Hopefully some people can see what he can't.
Jeff was great with the stock market, as was his father. Every year up until the the recession that we are currently, he was always increasing his family's wealth by stock trading. Near the end of 2006, he had amassed nearly 4.6 million dollars in stocks and bonds. His father was now retired and nothing could go wrong. I was just happy that I knew a millionaire. Being the arrogant brat I always knew he was he decided to quit school and travel the world while being confident that his stock trading wit would carry him through life. That was a few years ago.
When the market took a turn for the worst, he lost everything. Since all his wealth was in stock and bonds, when they devalued, so did his wealth.
Now he is currently living in my (nice) basement , paying $400 a month rent it. He is also working at a local restaurant and going back to school. Every now and then he rants about how mad he is about how things turned out, how he wasn't used to be limited financially, how it isn't fair this to have happened to him.
I said to him "look at the bright side, there's people starving in Africa. You still have food on the table and a house to live in."
He simply replied, "they're use to it."
And I think to myself, "they're not used to it. They just deal with it the best they can because it's part of life."
I think this story is a great analogy to this lag fiasco because no one wants to lag, but some people understand that lag is part of online gaming, like being poor is sometimes part of life. Maybe one day no one will lag online anymore, but I can also guarantee that when that days comes, no one will starve anymore, either.
Wow. Man, this is ... one of the worst analogies I've ever heard, let alone morals. Are you from authonomy?
i said it was fine, i didnt say it was good. fine means acceptable. and yes, the fact that one game a chinese player was involved in was playable definitely means that every other foreigner whos played with them has been lying...... ? dumbass
what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to f91. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
Yes IdrA! Keep showing the world how immature you are. Posts like this is why I can't wait for you to get kicked off your team and shipped back to america.
Anyone who doesnt think professionalism matters, you are an idiot. You really think a star team has any desire to have some whiny ass kid on their team who can't keep his mount shut on forums? You are in for a rude awakening. Perhaps you should focus on your game more, IdrA, then running your e-mouth on the internet.
You know why people like him are making fictitious claims against you? Because you are on here talking like a douchebag trying to defend someone who also couldn't keep his cool under pressure.
On March 24 2009 16:23 ZeitgeistMovie wrote: Here is a nice story about a (formerly) rich friend of mine that I'd thought I share. Hopefully some people can see what he can't.
Jeff was great with the stock market, as was his father. Every year up until the the recession that we are currently, he was always increasing his family's wealth by stock trading. Near the end of 2006, he had amassed nearly 4.6 million dollars in stocks and bonds. His father was now retired and nothing could go wrong. I was just happy that I knew a millionaire. Being the arrogant brat I always knew he was he decided to quit school and travel the world while being confident that his stock trading wit would carry him through life. That was a few years ago.
When the market took a turn for the worst, he lost everything. Since all his wealth was in stock and bonds, when they devalued, so did his wealth.
Now he is currently living in my (nice) basement , paying $400 a month rent it. He is also working at a local restaurant and going back to school. Every now and then he rants about how mad he is about how things turned out, how he wasn't used to be limited financially, how it isn't fair this to have happened to him.
I said to him "look at the bright side, there's people starving in Africa. You still have food on the table and a house to live in."
He simply replied, "they're use to it."
And I think to myself, "they're not used to it. They just deal with it the best they can because it's part of life."
I think this story is a great analogy to this lag fiasco because no one wants to lag, but some people understand that lag is part of online gaming, like being poor is sometimes part of life. Maybe one day no one will lag online anymore, but I can also guarantee that when that days comes, no one will starve anymore, either.
Wow. Man, this is ... one of the worst analogies I've ever heard, let alone morals. Are you from authonomy?
I was gonna say the same thing... seriously... such a shitty analogy..lol..
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to Savior. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
sad. i dont know what to think about this.I respect Ash words and F91 gamestyle, but nony its a lovely player if he turns bm like "Idra" ill blame USA or Kor for fuck with players brains -_-
i said it was fine, i didnt say it was good. fine means acceptable. and yes, the fact that one game a chinese player was involved in was playable definitely means that every other foreigner whos played with them has been lying...... ? dumbass
what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to f91. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
Yes IdrA! Keep showing the world how immature you are. Posts like this is why I can't wait for you to get kicked off your team and shipped back to america.
Anyone who doesnt think professionalism matters, you are an idiot. You really think a star team has any desire to have some whiny ass kid on their team who can't keep his mount shut on forums? You are in for a rude awakening. Perhaps you should focus on your game more, IdrA, then running your e-mouth on the internet.
You know why people like him are making fictitious claims against you? Because you are on here talking like a douchebag trying to defend someone who also couldn't keep his cool under pressure.
Why must you write this on a smurf? Also, you're just as bad as him. Sure we have 10000 instances where IdrA BMs. But from what I've seen he's been doing well in Korea, despite the recent results. His previous posts in this thread shouldn't be considered "BM" some kid attacked him first. The only reason you felt inclined to respond was because you were conforming to the IdrA troll express. I mean seriously, what is there 8 continually posts bashing IdrA? Grow up. Support him or leave him be. + Show Spoiler +
How am I a troll? I just started following this website because of an IdrA post on the BNET forums.
I started off defending IdrA on the bnet forums. And then when i came here and saw how he continuously acted like a child, my support for him quickly diminished. Why should the community leave him be? He is creating a terrible image for USA gamers with his attitude. How many pro teams would you see bringing new players over if they end up with players like IdrA who cant handle a loss or cant avoid talking crap on community forums?
Because I look at his behavior with concern on how he is representing America I need to grow up? I don't mean to get defensive here -- but honestly my goal with my posts are for him to realize he needs to grow up and take his job serious. Why someone doesn't want fan support is beyond me. I think there would be a lot more fans following IdrA if he didnt come onto a forum screaming "idiot" and "shut the fuck up" or rage quit out of games. Yea, losing sucks. But there is a way to handle it that makes players get better. To see him coming on here and make excuses as to why he loss, he obviously doesn't understand that.
While I was at blizzcon watching the starcraft tournament, I overheard someone ask who Idra was. The response he got was not positive. That it was bothers me about Idra. I would love to see him succeed and I would hate to see his opportunity vanish because the manager of his team decides his immaturity and leaving a bad image for the team name.
On March 24 2009 08:39 zhuangcorp wrote: However, it's quite rude to invite Chinese players to come play in our exhibition, then treat them coldly if they win or if they lag.
Very true. This is probably where a lot of the hostility on the part of Ash & Co. comes from.
Yes because alot of the teamliquid gosus bitch constantly about chinese lag , I was shocked when it happend and everbody was upset/shocked.
I think it was awesome to bridge the communities. I don't think anybody can be upset about chinese lag when after all these years, I can say "Are you chinese?" on iccup with 85% accuracy just because of how it feels.
I was wondering the same thing ever since F91 was first invited to play. Especially since the TSL eliminated Chinese players for lagging reason. This isn't some new problem. But since TL.net did invite F91, and Strelok/Idra/Nony/JF all agreed to play him, I naturally figured that the lag wasn't really a problem for such exhibition games.
On March 23 2009 23:56 Chill wrote: Okay, obviously I was implying the connection speed between China and the rest foreign world. I'm not meaning to create facts - laggy countries have more experience with lag. Shocker!
I don't claim to know the facts behind everything. Despite the fact that I do live in China, I have not played any starcraft here and really has no clue about the Chinese SC community(I'm not a Chinese native speaker).
But your claim is based on a very important assumption, which I don't feel has been substantiated. You say that laggy countries have more experience with lag, yet it takes two to tango. That is, it requires a western player and a laggy-Chinese player to create a laggy match. So for your statement to be correct, there has to be a much higher number of western players than Chinese(and any other country within this circle of lagginess) players who are willing to play in laggy conditions.
And if this thread is any indication, people in the west don't really play with the Chinese. That Chinese SC players mostly play themselves. So there's an inherent contradiction. If so-called non-laggy countries don't play Chinese players, how are Chinese players more familiar with lag?
I'm not entirely sure of the situation facing Chinese players either but here is my guess: - Most players play on ICC for the majority of their games.
Now, my reasoning could be completely off since I'm tired as hell and sick to boot but it makes sense at the moment.
From what I've read in this thread, this doesn't seem to be the case. Chinese generally play against the Chinese. And I can attest that the internet within China is very fast and no more problematic than the US. It really is the government firewall that's fucking up connections with other parts of the world.
Do they have some other private server or something? Just curious. As for the rest of your post, that's generally what I've heard. China to China connections are blindingly fast, China to anywhere else is hit or miss.
On March 24 2009 21:56 7mk wrote: Just imagine this:
On March 24 2009 16:54 Sea[Shield] wrote:
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to Savior. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
bwahaha
By the way:
IdrA was just temp banned for 2 days by Carnac.
That account was created on 2004-07-31 20:59:50 and had 8299 posts.
Reason: "shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit" = unacceptable
... and ...
moriya was just temp banned for 1 week by Plexa.
That account was created on 2009-03-14 10:01:09 and had 7 posts.
Reason:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On March 24 2009 12:17 moriya wrote: And noob Idra, check your replay again to see why F91 didnot take you with 7:0 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn't acceptable posting
I guess it's only in a stacraft forum that "noob" is considered as a worse insult than "illiterate piece of shit" and "sandy vaginas".
(Or maybe it has something to do with the post count?)
Zerg has low-hp units that die very quickly compared to Protoss. Even without lag, Nony still would most likely lose. He gladly accepts a 0-0 restart from 0-2.
F91 is already a good player and doesn't need to exploit anything to win. If there's lag, then he is probably more adjusted, but to call him exploiting the lag in order to beat his opponents pretty pathetic. Especially since he rapes his opponents. It's not like tiny delays in micro made the difference and allowed F91 to beat them by a small margin.
As for Nony on Andromeda, he was getting out-macroed and was way behind in upgrades. Lag or not he was getting rolled.
On March 25 2009 01:18 vnlegend wrote: Zerg has low-hp units that die very quickly compared to Protoss. Even without lag, Nony still would most likely lose. He gladly accepts a 0-0 restart from 0-2.
F91 is already a good player and doesn't need to exploit anything to win. If there's lag, then he is probably more adjusted, but to call him exploiting the lag in order to beat his opponents pretty pathetic. Especially since he rapes his opponents. It's not like tiny delays in micro made the difference and allowed F91 to beat them by a small margin.
As for Nony on Andromeda, he was getting out-macroed and was way behind in upgrades. Lag or not he was getting rolled.
On March 25 2009 01:18 vnlegend wrote: Zerg has low-hp units that die very quickly compared to Protoss. Even without lag, Nony still would most likely lose. He gladly accepts a 0-0 restart from 0-2.
F91 is already a good player and doesn't need to exploit anything to win. If there's lag, then he is probably more adjusted, but to call him exploiting the lag in order to beat his opponents pretty pathetic. Especially since he rapes his opponents. It's not like tiny delays in micro made the difference and allowed F91 to beat them by a small margin.
As for Nony on Andromeda, he was getting out-macroed and was way behind in upgrades. Lag or not he was getting rolled.
On March 24 2009 21:56 7mk wrote: Just imagine this:
On March 24 2009 16:54 Sea[Shield] wrote:
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to Savior. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
That account was created on 2009-03-14 10:01:09 and had 7 posts.
Reason:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On March 24 2009 12:17 moriya wrote: And noob Idra, check your replay again to see why F91 didnot take you with 7:0 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn't acceptable posting
I guess it's only in a stacraft forum that "noob" is considered as a worse insult than "illiterate piece of shit" and "sandy vaginas".
(Or maybe it has something to do with the post count?)
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similiar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little girly-kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 500 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has 1000+ posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.
So from that commandment Idra has: - Veterancy: He's been here a long time. - Post Count: Idra has 8000+ vs Moriya's 7 posts. - Pro status. - Contributions: Not just all the juicy drama as a result of his BM but he regularly helps us nooblets in the Strat forum with knowledge few others on this board have at the level he does.
Moriya has... 7 posts, none of which are terribly noteworthy in terms of contribution. You better believe Idra will be given preferential treatment and rightfully so. Imagine Mani telling Moriya to eat shit and die, what do you think would happen to him? Now, reverse that situation and imagine the consequences.
<rant> Also, I find it laughable how many people are jumping on Idra for things totally unrelated to this topic. Nony didn't want to play in lag conditions that he felt were intolerable by his standards, Ash thinks either the lag wasn't that bad or people should just suck it up and play anyway. No one is clearly in the right or wrong here as it's a matter of opinion as far as I'm concerned. Like arguing whether blue or red is the superior color (blue is, btw).
Idra agreed with Nony and all of a sudden this crazy shitstorm arises with people accusing Idra of making excuses for his match against F91, that he doesn't deserve to be in Korea, he should go home, and all manner of personal attacks on his character. He's most definitely not the most "manner" of players and I can certainly understand that he gets under people's skin but I think it's getting to the point of ridiculousness where personal attacks against him are just becoming the norm. For people that seem to give such a huge mammoth crap about being "mannered" they certainly seem to lack any form of restraint, manner, or ability to simply take the high road. You don't need to praise the guy, support him, or even refrain from disagreeing with him. Simply showing some "manner" would suffice, even if you feel it's not due to him.
While Idra may not have been the most likable person in the past, it most certainly won't get better at this rate. A few weeks in Idra's shoes would probably drive anyone to be ill-tempered to say the least. </rant>
On March 24 2009 21:56 7mk wrote: Just imagine this:
On March 24 2009 16:54 Sea[Shield] wrote:
shut the fuck up you illiterate piece of shit what are you babbling about i didnt throw a fit i was discussing the games with people in private. i didnt make a single public comment about it, or say anything to Savior. then rekrul decided he needed you nerds to suck his dick for a little bit and posted certain bits and pieces of it to get you all riled up. you rose to the stimulation astoundingly. well done puppet boy.
That account was created on 2009-03-14 10:01:09 and had 7 posts.
Reason:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On March 24 2009 12:17 moriya wrote: And noob Idra, check your replay again to see why F91 didnot take you with 7:0 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn't acceptable posting
I guess it's only in a stacraft forum that "noob" is considered as a worse insult than "illiterate piece of shit" and "sandy vaginas".
(Or maybe it has something to do with the post count?)
for the record I should have banned IdrA for longer.
Phyre, something tells me you didnt even read the posts about Idra, or why he was even brought up in this topic. Idra came to this thread on his own, defending the poor manners of Nony as if he didn't act inappropriate. This is why Idra came into the cross hairs. He is acting like a moron on here trying to defend someone else for acting like a moron. He doesn't get it and shouldn't just be ignored every time he acts up. If no one targeted his behavior he won't have any reason to fix it. It's like training a dog. o.O
People! F91 is old as fuck (in starcraft age), this guy has being slaying koreans (and PJ) before any of yous so stfu and let's say he creampied all foreigners and leave it at that.
On March 25 2009 06:40 haduken wrote: People! F91 is old as fuck (in starcraft age), this guy has being slaying koreans (and PJ) before any of yous so stfu and let's say he creampied all foreigners and leave it at that.
I thought PJ has a pretty good record against F91. I saw a replay of them recently and PJ won pretty decisively. If Nony fails to take down F91, I'd love to see a PJ/LX vs F91 liquibition match.
On March 25 2009 06:24 jeremycafe wrote: Phyre, something tells me you didnt even read the posts about Idra, or why he was even brought up in this topic. Idra came to this thread on his own, defending the poor manners of Nony as if he didn't act inappropriate. This is why Idra came into the cross hairs. He is acting like a moron on here trying to defend someone else for acting like a moron. He doesn't get it and shouldn't just be ignored every time he acts up. If no one targeted his behavior he won't have any reason to fix it. It's like training a dog. o.O
At first I thought this was entirely possible, my memory is pretty terrible. Perhaps I've overlooked something, so I went back through the thread Ctrl+Fing "idra".
Looking through the first 14 pages or so Idra was pretty reasonable in my opinion, certainly nothing to warrant personal attacks on himself. I wouldn't say he was defending the alleged poor manners of Nony either so much as saying what Nony did wasn't all that BM (which again, is opinion). Last I checked, that doesn't give anyone free reign to make personal attacks. If it was, I should be able to start making personal attacks on you because I happen to disagree with your assessment of the topic. The topic isn't black and white though. If someone was defending the use of hacks or something, sure, flame away. That's black and white, this is not.
Idra came into this thread, gave his opinion in civil fashion and well before he started appearing even remotely pissed I found these:
On March 21 2009 19:29 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Lol Idra would have whined about lag even if it wouldn't have lagged. <3 Nony.
On March 21 2009 21:16 kulik- wrote: i didnt said that u are making excuse i just try say... that everyone knows taht chinese have lag problem so if is problem for u dont play vs them... nobody force u to play again F91... u saw chance of playing this event... to make some money... u face it quite well... u played and lost ok... but nony? he knew that there is gonna be lag problem and according to ash it was so big... what did he expected? that its gonna be like in estro house on lan??
actually he had reason to believe there wouldnt be a lag problem because of the lag test. when he plays and sees that it lags he leaves. i dont see anything wrong with that.
whereas i just played it out and then everyone jumped on my ass afterwards saying i was lying about the lag to downplay my loss.
that aside, he did not agree to play in lag. he agreed to play liquibition. are foreigners not allowed to play in any event chinese choose to play if they dont want to deal with lag?
so u got owned by 2 hatch muta under lag?
On March 23 2009 17:34 kernl wrote: Idra, you are a very, very, very stupid person. Really.
I don't think either of those were all that warranted, just people taking pot shots at him.
Wow, I just watched their match on Andromeda. Reminds me a lot of his matches with Idra, where F91 pounced on a slight error of his opponent.
Match starts with Nony complementing Ash for perfect lag.
Nony keeps all his corsairs alive, and has several reavers, seems to have an advantage. All of a sudden, he tries to move out his reavers on the ground. F91, who put zerglings all across the map for vision, uses only 1 control group of hydras and snipes 3/4 reavers moving out on the ground. 2 of those could not be microed, 1 of them was mismicroed by the shuttle, possibly as a resullt of lag but nony makes no mention of it.
Nony runs all his corsairs into a group of hydras, loses all his corsairs.
Midway through the game, the game appears to lag, both nony and F91 complain about it, and Ash leaves the game.
F91 was very aggressive with his expos, and had more economy than Nony. Nony tries for a storm drop but the shuttle get scourged. F91 appears to have maphacks built into his brain, as there didn't appear to be any way F91 could've saw the shuttle.
Finally, in F.91's final push, Nony complains about the , but the game is already decided.
Phyre: Definitely. I think Idra could be much better mannered, but when I see someone post something like "lol idra you stupid fuck you need to be mannered" I just facepalm, because they probably don't even SEE the irony.
Ash and F91 seem to be pretty cool. Reminds me that I know so little about Chinese starcraft. I wish there was more English coverage of the Chinese scene.
On March 25 2009 11:26 zhuangcorp wrote:F91 appears to have maphacks built into his brain, as there didn't appear to be any way F91 could've saw the shuttle.
I will not get into the flamewar, I'll only comment on this sentence: F91 had an overlord at the six o'clock island when the slow (!) shuttle passed near the wall, and on such level it should be no big deal to notice something like that.
On March 25 2009 06:40 haduken wrote: People! F91 is old as fuck (in starcraft age), this guy has being slaying koreans (and PJ) before any of yous so stfu and let's say he creampied all foreigners and leave it at that.
I thought PJ has a pretty good record against F91. I saw a replay of them recently and PJ won pretty decisively. If Nony fails to take down F91, I'd love to see a PJ/LX vs F91 liquibition match.
Yea.........mh I dont know but somehow I have a feeling that they're not gonna send a chinese player for next liquibition O_o
oh and afaik F91 has a very good record against PJ, maybe youre confusing it with f91 v LX?
PJ,LX, rushgoon (aka Never), chinatttt, super both had very close records against F91, I would say they are both at very close level (maybe Pj,Lx little bit stronger imo), F91 won a lot of game vs Lx when he used to play all-in cheesy style.His ZvT is relative weak compare with his ZvZ and Zvp. recently he almost lost every game against Pj and Lx and Never. But F91 is so good he is just unpredictable. his Micro of Muta and zerglings are very famous in china, that's why Chinese player call F91 "Dog king of the south" (In china, zerglings are called dogs). I believe it will be hard for Nony to take f91down if f91 plays as usual.
On March 25 2009 23:49 pure)3.41 wrote: PJ,LX, rushgoon (aka Never), chinatttt, super both had very close records against F91, I would say they are both at very close level (maybe Pj,Lx little bit stronger imo), F91 won a lot of game vs Lx when he used to play all-in cheesy style.His ZvT is relative weak compare with his ZvZ and Zvp. recently he almost lost every game against Pj and Lx and Never. But F91 is so good he is just unpredictable. his Micro of Muta and zerglings are very famous in china, that's why Chinese player call F91 "Dog king of the south" (In china, zerglings are called dogs). I believe it will be hard for Nony to take f91down if f91 plays as usual.
I see thanks for the infos =)
"Dog king of the south" lol thats just great xD, pretty gangsta as well
On March 25 2009 15:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Only way to take out F91 is to get Pj or Lx =P
Or Sea[Shield]!
Yeah but then nobody could beat Sea[Shield] cause no foreigner has a chance -> we would have to send more pro gamers, jaedong, flash etc. to beat him and then every progamer would just want to play liquibition and nobody would participate in the starleagues anymore so OSL and MSL would soon seize to exist so that would be kinda sad.
It has been way too long since Sea[Shield] has made a TL appearance and considering the pro gamer's will get a break very soon, with the only exception being GOM season 3 starting soon, perhaps he will have a little free time on his hands?
On March 25 2009 23:49 pure)3.41 wrote: PJ,LX, rushgoon (aka Never), chinatttt, super both had very close records against F91, I would say they are both at very close level (maybe Pj,Lx little bit stronger imo), F91 won a lot of game vs Lx when he used to play all-in cheesy style.His ZvT is relative weak compare with his ZvZ and Zvp. recently he almost lost every game against Pj and Lx and Never. But F91 is so good he is just unpredictable. his Micro of Muta and zerglings are very famous in china, that's why Chinese player call F91 "Dog king of the south" (In china, zerglings are called dogs). I believe it will be hard for Nony to take f91down if f91 plays as usual.
Super's been playing like shit lately and his record against F91 isn't that close. Pj and Lx are the ones who beat F91 more than they lose, so it's not close there either. Never and F91 is the only close one, since Chinatttt never did much vZ.
F91 kinda went below the radar for a little bit a year ago when S.C.Evangelion was slated to be the enxt big Chinese Zerg, but he decided to retire from SC and do something else because of the lack of overall interest in the Chinese SC scene. Pity, too, I loved watching EVA play, he was like my favorite Zerg player for forever =X Now F91's basically having a resurgence, but unfortunately he's been irked by Lx and Pj in a lot of events recently...
On March 25 2009 15:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Only way to take out F91 is to get Pj or Lx =P
Or Sea[Shield]!
None of the non-korean players can win Sea in the BO7 series, in any case. The one who's gonna beat Sea afterwards must be a korean player. It means if Sea was invited one time, Liquibition would change into a Korean vs World mode until the end.
On March 25 2009 15:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Only way to take out F91 is to get Pj or Lx =P
Or Sea[Shield]!
None of the non-korean players can win Sea in the BO7 series, in any case. The one who's gonna beat Sea afterwards must be a korean player. It means if Sea was invited one time, Liquibition would change into a Korean vs World mode until the end.
1.) I already said exactly that 2.) I doubt he was being serious ^^
Nony has every right to be upset of the lag and say anything he wants as long as it is not intended for anyone. Ash, that is what we call democracy w/c china doesn't have, I feel sorry for you guys.
On March 27 2009 16:02 logicgosu wrote: Nony has every right to be upset of the lag and say anything he wants as long as it is not intended for anyone. Ash, that is what we call democracy w/c china doesn't have, I feel sorry for you guys.
I don't even think Ash is from China ( Malaysia? ) and this comment is uncalled for. Yes America is a great place to live (I live here...) but every country has their own culture, tradition and way of life. Saying stuff like "I feel sorry for you guys because you don't have democracy" is just ignorant because someone from China might just as well say "I feel sorry for you because I don't like American food".
On March 27 2009 16:02 logicgosu wrote: Nony has every right to be upset of the lag and say anything he wants as long as it is not intended for anyone. Ash, that is what we call democracy w/c china doesn't have, I feel sorry for you guys.
Every post I've seen from Ash is nothing but class and manner, despite nony complaining or idra complaining or huge lag problems or whatever the case is. It's nice to see. Hope this issue is solved, I'm really looking forward to this match :D
On March 27 2009 16:02 logicgosu wrote: Nony has every right to be upset of the lag and say anything he wants as long as it is not intended for anyone. Ash, that is what we call democracy w/c china doesn't have, I feel sorry for you guys.
I don't even think Ash is from China ( Malaysia? ) and this comment is uncalled for. Yes America is a great place to live (I live here...) but every country has their own culture, tradition and way of life. Saying stuff like "I feel sorry for you guys because you don't have democracy" is just ignorant because someone from China might just as well say "I feel sorry for you because I don't like American food".
Whats funny is that even though theres so many democratic countries in this world its obvious that logicgosu must an ignorant american (and before I get flamed, I like the US, you just unfortunately have a lot of people like that)
On March 27 2009 16:02 logicgosu wrote: Nony has every right to be upset of the lag and say anything he wants as long as it is not intended for anyone. Ash, that is what we call democracy w/c china doesn't have, I feel sorry for you guys.
WTF does the 1st amendment has to do with anything? What, F91 can't bitch about lag because he fears the Chinese secret police or something?
On a side note, your post is quite ironic considering the chaotic state of Chinese message boards. I really dislike them because they're so poorly moderated and people really do say whatever they want. Which leads to flame wars that dwarfs anything you might see on this baord, and even spills into real life.
OTOH, American message boards in general have good number of mods and people are generally much more well-mannered due to the control.
A) NonY acting bad tempered after the losses (with lag) and saying things that was more than offending to the chinese gaming community.
B) Ash reacting incorrectly to the situation.
Nony has the rights to be pissed off since there WAS a lag and he clearly did say he refuses to play if there was. However, there was no need for him to say "fuck it, i never should have agreed to play chinese.." because this just shows sc-idraness and nony should know better.
No its wrong no matter what the excuse is, you can't blame the other entire community. Blame iccup server for not handling lag free games. Anyway this was over the line and nony should apologize.
Ash should also aplogize since despite having all those lag tests (1 with 10seconds long) there was lag which bothered the contender and he indirectly forced nony to continue. This was bad decision but I can also understand ash's frustration since Nony started the BM.
Then it got worse as it came over to TL and I still think nony is in the wrong since he lied about what happened and resulted in ash posting the pic of it and now both party becoming enemies.
To conclude, Nony owes an apology to ash for acting immature after the game, and Ash to Nony for not producing 100percent gaming environment for nony.
I just wish there is a rematch with no lag and no bm this time.
I had a lot of respect for Nony until all this commotion. I was okay with him being frustrated and not wanting to play anymore because of the game conditions being laggier than he expected. I was even okay with him being BM about it. But then when he posted his response and lied about what happened, I've lost respect for him. You have to at least own up when you do something wrong.
Anyways... looking forward to a good match tomorrow.
On March 22 2009 22:57 Liquid`NonY wrote: After the second game, I didn't say what you said. The way you recount it gives a horrible impression of me. I didn't start anything with 'fuck' and the very last thing I said was that I shouldn't schedule matches with Chinese players at all.
On March 23 2009 02:46 Ash wrote: 3.
In the "white" corner, wearing very very white trousers, Ash, in the "black" corner, wearing very very black trousers, Nony..
it's just lag issues come on guys, playing so far from each other of course there will be lag, i would be surprised if it was smooth and would be like woa what internet you guys have?
On March 25 2009 01:18 vnlegend wrote: Zerg has low-hp units that die very quickly compared to Protoss. Even without lag, Nony still would most likely lose. He gladly accepts a 0-0 restart from 0-2.
F91 is already a good player and doesn't need to exploit anything to win. If there's lag, then he is probably more adjusted, but to call him exploiting the lag in order to beat his opponents pretty pathetic. Especially since he rapes his opponents. It's not like tiny delays in micro made the difference and allowed F91 to beat them by a small margin.
As for Nony on Andromeda, he was getting out-macroed and was way behind in upgrades. Lag or not he was getting rolled.
I read through a whole lot of this thread just for this link. But I enjoyed reading through all the drama becuase it was fucking hilarious. Thanks for posting the link 3.41.
To think that something like lag could inspire so many hateful remarks.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/alffla/f91nony.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1926/supernony.jpg)
because its not gonna be count in liquitbition... so something like preview for it?
![[image loading]](http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aaad.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://g.imageshack.us/img147/aaad.jpg/1/)
![[image loading]](http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6728/aaad.jpg)
