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Liquibition #29 - Delayed! - Page 6

Forum Index > News
394 CommentsPost a Reply
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Zepish
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada160 Posts
March 21 2009 17:19 GMT
#101
Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 17:28:30
March 21 2009 17:26 GMT
#102
On March 22 2009 02:19 Zepish wrote:
Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?


Hamachi wouldnt help, there would still be AT LEAST 250 ping to China from US. It's just the distance the signal has to travel and like 20 hops instead of 10.

Try tracing your connection to a chinese city and see what the delay is.

I just traced my connection to YaoYuan, and the ping is 500ms. To me that's unplayable in any game, and i'm not even a professional player.
R3condite
Profile Joined August 2008
Korea (South)1541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 17:28:41
March 21 2009 17:27 GMT
#103
On March 22 2009 02:19 Zepish wrote:
Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?

im not 100% sure on this but i think china blocks hamachi

and even if it didn't it wouldn't make that much of a difference in terms of lag spikes and such

On March 22 2009 02:26 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2009 02:19 Zepish wrote:
Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but why aren't they playing on hamachi? I feel like it would be way less laggy, Is there something I don't know about connecting hamachi oversea?


Hamachi wouldnt help, there would still be AT LEAST 250 ping to China from US. It's just the distance the signal has to travel and like 20 hops instead of 10.

Try tracing your connection to a chinese city and see what the delay is.

u r rite but nony is not in US atm?
ggyo...
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
March 21 2009 17:28 GMT
#104
I guess I have time to revamp my video, still sucks though.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 17:36:02
March 21 2009 17:34 GMT
#105
On March 22 2009 00:55 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2009 00:36 Phyre wrote:
I don't think Ash is really out to get Nony either, just perhaps using a poor choice of words sometimes.


Are you kidding? Based on the contents of this thread, it looks like Ash has spent a good portion of the last two hours reading this thread and posting long replies to anyone who disagrees with him and defends NonY. His original post's primary purpose was clearly to insinuate that NonY was being unsportsmanlike for refusing to play in laggy conditions. Regardless of whether his account of the events is fair, it's clear that Ash entered this thread specifically to call NonY a bad sport in public. Is that really productive? Ash, what kind of a person spends two hours trying to assault someone's reputation on an online forum? Don't you have better things to do?

If anything, Ash's complaint should have been raised with the TL admins or directly to NonY. Coming directly to this thread is in very poor taste.


Thats interesting cause to me it seems like nony was the one who refused to properly communicate - I mean posting at TL.net while dodging ash at msn?
Posting a short bm comment after game 2 and then just leaving?

I do agree with your other points about Ash not considering that lag might have been a lot more severe than what he describes it to be but thats just another clear case where we just dont know and people should stop pretending they know whats going on and know that one of the two sides is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.



What I was wondering about though is that nony said that f91 nearly dropped in game 1...
So to my understanding both players had to sit there, seeing a little number starting with 0:45 slowly going down...
so this would be something f91 would clearly have realised as being really bad so why didnt ash mention it
either he left it out trying to make a point or nony was exaggerating a bit...




On March 22 2009 02:27 R3condite wrote:
u r rite but nony is not in US atm?


How is nony not in the US ...



beep boop
pure)3.41
Profile Joined November 2008
China154 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 17:36:32
March 21 2009 17:35 GMT
#106
poor F91, he had to play this game at 3am and be left without knowing anything happening. and there is another game for him the next day in China,
what a poor man. let's say he was fucked up.
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
March 21 2009 17:36 GMT
#107
On March 22 2009 02:35 pure)3.41 wrote:
poor F91, he had to play this game at 3am and be left without knowing anything happening. and there is another game for him the next day in China, haha. what a poor man.

He's not poor at all he's makin that chedda thanks to liquibition victims
vx70GTOJudgexv
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3161 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 19:14:59
March 21 2009 17:36 GMT
#108
Can I ask TL why a Chinese player was allowed into Liquibition in the first place? F91 is, in my opinion, an excellent gamer, but the Chinese were banned from TSL for a reason: game quality. Shouldn't Liquibition be held to the same standard?

+ Show Spoiler [TSL Announcement Banning Chinese IPs] +

On April 01 2008 12:03 Manifesto7 wrote:
Sorry China.

After extensive dicussion amongst the TSL staff, well-known gamers, and members of the Chinese gaming community, we have decided to prohibit all gamers residing in China from qualifying for the playoffs of the TSL.

The reason for this is simple; game quality. There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers. These problems will only be magnified when two casters and an observer are present. Rather than have issues during broadcast times, we will avoid the situation altogether.

For the TSL staff, the quality of the league is paramount to the considerations of individual gamers. I apologize to those Chinese gamers who have already invested time in the league, but we felt it was better to make this clear now rather than later. Gamers are still welcome to participate in the ladder, but will not be eligible for qualification.

If you have any questions of comments, please PM Manifesto7.

Thank you,
TSL Staff



Ash you seem to be on some kind of crusade here. Every time someone hints at intolerable Chinese lag, you get defensive and saying its not their fault. Yes, we realize NonY was irritated by the lag. Who wouldn't be? When the lag test was fine and then your connection went to crap (don't try and turn the blame on NonY's, there have been 28 Liquibitions - only the ones with your player have had any lag complaints of this magnitude that I recall) and he got upset because it is unplayable at that level. Obviously it wasn't just one or two small little things, it was a big deal. Don't forget that NonY has been one of the heroes of this community and you're taking on an entire website when you try and insinuate that he has bad sportsmanship because he refuses to play in HIGHLY unfavorable conditions. That's like saying a coach is a bad sport because he doesn't want his team to play in a rain storm because he doesn't want his kids to get injure.

Let's just take a quick look here:
  • TeamLiquid Star League - Chinese IPs banned due to game quality issues. Reasoning: "There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers."
  • Liquibition #27 - JF vs. F91, Complaints of lag (according to another TL.netter)
  • Broodsport 1 - IdrA vs. F91, IdrA kicks Mani because of lag, also mentions hints of lag later on.
  • Liquibition #28 - Strelok vs. F91 - We noticed hints of lag in this one too.
  • Liquibition #29 - NonY vs. F91 - Delayed due to lag
  • Stamina - Jaystar vs. ret - ret forfeits series after 1 game because of lag issues.
  • NASCL KoTH - Jaystar vs. DIMAGA - Jaystar has latency issues, becomes Never vs. DIMAGA


I do see a trend forming here, and it's not crappy non-Chinese connections.
(-_-) BW for ever. #1 Iris fan.
fbchicken
Profile Joined December 2008
Vietnam8 Posts
March 21 2009 17:41 GMT
#109
On March 22 2009 00:09 Ash wrote:
I will only say this one more time, the problem was definitely solvable had nony been patient or polite enough. It was being played on Low Latency in iCCup so for those who are going to tell everyone how Lan Latency differs from Battle net speed please stop and save your time. I personally have doubts in nony's complaint bout the lag which shouldn't happen in a Low Latency iCCup game. Maybe I should upload the replay and let everyone judge if admin allows me to do so?



If my units refused to do what I told them to and my micro timing is messed up in an important game because of lag, maybe it's not that easy for me to be patient (even I'm at D/D+). I guess it's natural to get frustrated, and when frustrated one cannot deliver his best games even if the problem is then solved.

And how is the replay supposed to be an evidence of lag? The replays are always smooth (correct me if I got you wrong) FPVod can help though.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 17:47:46
March 21 2009 17:45 GMT
#110
Judge I think you made a really nice post, but it's important to consider the benefits of involving Chinese talents in all of these "foreigner" events. China is easily the strongest SC country outside of Korea, I think its players deserve to have representation in special matches like Liquibition, assuming both players involved can accept the level of latency.
✌
vx70GTOJudgexv
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3161 Posts
March 21 2009 17:55 GMT
#111
On March 22 2009 02:45 JWD wrote:
Judge I think you made a really nice post, but it's important to consider the benefits of involving Chinese talents in all of these "foreigner" events. China is easily the strongest SC country outside of Korea, I think its players deserve to have representation in special matches like Liquibition, assuming both players involved can accept the level of latency.


I agree that they are excellent players, but they do have quite the scene of their own over there, and the latency issues are noteworthy for organizers. Unfortunately the StarCraft scene does not have the money in it like the CounterStrike scene does to co-ordinate bigger LAN events rather than online tournaments and matches.
(-_-) BW for ever. #1 Iris fan.
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
March 21 2009 18:28 GMT
#112
On March 22 2009 02:36 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
Can I ask TL why a Chinese player was allowed into Liquibition in the first place? F91 is, in my opinion, an excellent gamer, but the Chinese were banned from TSL for a reason: game quality. Shouldn't Liquibition be held to the same standard?

+ Show Spoiler [TSL Announcement Banning Chinese IPs] +

On April 01 2008 12:03 Manifesto7 wrote:
Sorry China.

After extensive dicussion amongst the TSL staff, well-known gamers, and members of the Chinese gaming community, we have decided to prohibit all gamers residing in China from qualifying for the playoffs of the TSL.

The reason for this is simple; game quality. There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers. These problems will only be magnified when two casters and an observer are present. Rather than have issues during broadcast times, we will avoid the situation altogether.

For the TSL staff, the quality of the league is paramount to the considerations of individual gamers. I apologize to those Chinese gamers who have already invested time in the league, but we felt it was better to make this clear now rather than later. Gamers are still welcome to participate in the ladder, but will not be eligible for qualification.

If you have any questions of comments, please PM Manifesto7.

Thank you,
TSL Staff



Ash you seem to be on some kind of crusade here. Every time someone hints at intolerable Chinese lag, you get defensive and saying its not their fault. Yes, we realize NonY was irritated by the lag. Who wouldn't be? When the lag test was fine and then your connection went to crap (don't try and turn the blame on NonY's, there have been 28 Liquibitions - only the ones with your player have had any lag complaints of this magnitude that I recall) and he got upset because it is unplayable at that level. Obviously it wasn't just one or two small little things, it was a big deal. Don't forget that NonY has been one of the heroes of this community and you're taking on an entire website when you try and insinuate that he has bad sportsmanship because he refuses to play in HIGHLY unfavorable conditions. That's like saying a coach is a bad sport because he doesn't want his team to play in a rain storm because he doesn't want his kids to get injure.

Let's just take a quick look here:
  • TeamLiquid Star League - Chinese IPs banned due to game quality issues. Reasoning: "There are many connection problems between Chinese IPs and European or American gamers."
  • Broodsport 1 - IdrA vs. F91, IdrA kicks Mani because of lag, also mentions hints of lag later on.
  • Liquibition #28 - Strelok vs. F91 - We noticed hints of lag in this one too.
  • Liquibition #29 - NonY vs. F91 - Delayed due to lag
  • Stamina - Jaystar vs. ret - ret forfeits series after 1 game because of lag issues.
  • NASCL KoTH - Jaystar vs. DIMAGA - Jaystar has latency issues, becomes Never vs. DIMAGA


I do see a trend forming here, and it's not crappy non-Chinese connections.


There was also lag issues in the JF vs F91 series. Yeah, hopefully this gets resolved, and propos to Idra, JF, and Streok for dealing with it and showing us a few decent series.
Ry-Masta-T
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States478 Posts
March 21 2009 18:44 GMT
#113
I think if nony really waited till the end of the game to complain about lag, that's not very mannered. Whatevs I dont know the whole story, I just hope the games get played so we can see some cool matches.
Speak the word...
archaicon
Profile Joined March 2009
9 Posts
March 21 2009 18:48 GMT
#114
Can we see the replays of game 1 and the almost finished game 2? Maybe then we can partially see if there was impossible lag..

I wanna see the played games still!!!
shenlong
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-21 18:53:48
March 21 2009 18:49 GMT
#115
man i was really looking forward to this; artosis and day commentating was going to be awesome..

i even bought beer and pizza for the event >.<


well guess i'll wait for next week...

f91 fighting =]


btw if possible can the first replay of the series be released to the public?
sungohan
Profile Joined August 2008
United States54 Posts
March 21 2009 18:54 GMT
#116
On March 21 2009 20:09 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote:
so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|

I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?


Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games?
The reason why he complained is just because he lost.
moriya
Profile Joined March 2009
United States54 Posts
March 21 2009 19:22 GMT
#117
In starcraft skills, I want to point out that in PGL tournament Nony was invited to play LAN in China. He was soon eliminated in the weakest group. He even had no chance to face to F91 and other stronger Chinese and Korean players in a totally lag-free environment.

In personality, I don't think an educated man will say:"" fuck it i shouldn't have agreed to play chinese players in the first place. reschedule if you want." after his embarassed lose. Not to mention his irresponsible attitude during the game test.

The question is why let such a bad-skill and bad-manner player ruin our Liquibition?
APurpleCow
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1372 Posts
March 21 2009 19:24 GMT
#118
On March 22 2009 03:54 sungohan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2009 20:09 Sadistx wrote:
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote:
so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|

I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?


Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games?
The reason why he complained is just because he lost.


If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.
sungohan
Profile Joined August 2008
United States54 Posts
March 21 2009 19:39 GMT
#119
On March 22 2009 04:24 APurpleCow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2009 03:54 sungohan wrote:
On March 21 2009 20:09 Sadistx wrote:
On March 21 2009 20:06 H wrote:
so basically because Nony doesn't want to play in a less than ideal environment he's a bad sport? that's terrible reasoning. he's not from China, he doesn't have to put up with laggy shit if he doesn't want to bother. :|

I agree. Who can blame a person for not wanting to put up with 2 second delay on every order? Do you want to see good games or 1a2a3a from both players and just give up on micro altogether?


Do you think Nony will complain about the lag if he won those two games?
The reason why he complained is just because he lost.


If he won the lag wouldn't have been an issue. However, if he believes he was losing because of the lag, then the lag is an issue.


The lag is a two way street.
Don't be naive, do you really think that will make a huge difference on deciding who will win?
This is not Progamer scene, the skills of these two players are not that close.
The lag should not be a deciding factor.
stack
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada348 Posts
March 21 2009 19:58 GMT
#120
meh sum up this thread:
nony was not wrong in being mad about lag BUT he could have handled it better.

and I think its just as unfair for chinese players used to a little delay to have to play lan speeds. imo that throws them off just as much as lag does for other players. So any way you cut it...dont play one another if you want to take it so seriously.
life is short, dont F it up
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