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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
Not to hate on MC or anything, but I don't agree with much what it was said on the article. This guy was the ultimate "bitbybitprime" of BW. I mean they made fun of him everywhere in SC-BW for his "suicide" style of playing.
I always said, MC is just a temporal phenomenon. SC2 is a new game, people are figuring out stuff and abusive strats pop up every single week, that's the environment of a dream for all-in/not so talented players like "fish-protoss" aka as MC.
In my opinion that's the only reason MC did well in the first year of competitive SC2. Sure, he got better in the process, but honestly he is still at the very basics, the same all-inish abusive style of player he was in BW, which in the long run (and with the help of balance) will fade out.And thats exactly what started to happen few months ago already.
Props to him for taking advantage of the opportunity thou.
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On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL.
GTFO....
Puma is shit compared to MVP yet Puma was able to take MC with very sloppy play and allins....
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On September 09 2011 08:30 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL. GTFO.... Puma is shit compared to MVP yet Puma was able to take MC with very sloppy play and allins....
wtf are you talking about? puma won nasl, and I don't think winning iem and nasl is something a "shit" player would do.
Also, MC was the one who played sloppily. He should have made better decisions in game 1, and just got outplayed the other 2 games.
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On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it.
Really?! Im not even sure if youre trolling?
Mothership is incredibly expensive, the end of a pointless tech tree, cloak does literally nothing at that point and vortex, if it ever gets to cast it before getting shut down doesnt even do anything?
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I thought Motherships got explored plenty a while ago. Then as Terran and Zerg gained more and more advantages over Protoss, they lost their ability to sit there and tech to Fleet Beacon, of all things, and sacrifice Probe production out of a Nexus for an eternity while easily revealing their tech due to the extreme light that the Nexus generates while warping in a Mothership.
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I understand the whine about PvT to some extent, but seriously, what is imbalanced about PvZ at the moment ?
Also, saying protoss is really weak in korea is right, and I'm pretty sure there are imbalance... but you cannot fully explain it if you don't mention the fact that the protoss race was, since SC1, the weakest race in terms of overall number of players, and how SC2 took that scene as a heritage.
And, two protoss in top 3 is not enough... ?
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Great. Now people will use tl front page article to state imbalance.
As Pandain stated, MC choked. He was late on charge, attacked without it. And the game 3 was an utter failure from him. If he had played near perfection, then the balance whine would have been 'correct'. But he didn't.
You can't be a president when you are not able to maintain your reign. Maybe he should train more instead of travelling to foreign tourney ?
And what do you mean by 'if he was terran, he would have won 5 GSL' ? If I played terran and 14hours a day I would be a progammer in Korea. That doesn't work like that.
Btw PuMa isn't any terran.
Then I don't see how you can make some statements about protoss being overpowered in a tournament when 2 top 3 are protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +Sure terran is overrepresented at the top, but I don't think that tl writer should blame the game, ESPECIALLY when there is a patch with buff to protoss and nerf to terran. Maybe they're just better than protoss/zerg.
Edit : + Show Spoiler +Sorry if my thoughts aren't readable, i'm tired ^^"
Edit2 :
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2011 05:30 Olinim wrote:
By your logic, are there any patches that should have gone through? Has there ever been a point where a strat was demonstrated to be unbeatable with supposed perfect play? 5 rax reaper...maybe. Your view simply isn't realistic, and blizzard disagrees with you since apparently they do think bunker rushes are op, considering the nerf. Hopefully they will not take a page from your book of insanity and look further into the absolute nonsense that is the 1/1/1 :/. This simply isn't fair to protoss players, the results, the games, and the opinions of other pros show that. And yes MC shouldn't have to play perfectly to beat Puma's sloppy 1/1/1 on XNC that he didn't even do very well, because NO ONE plays perfectly. The Reaper wasn't nerfed because of the 5-Rax reaper build being imbalanced in 1v1, it was nerfed because of how imbalanced Reaper/Speedling was in 2v2. 5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM.
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On September 09 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:30 Rorschach wrote:On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL. GTFO.... Puma is shit compared to MVP yet Puma was able to take MC with very sloppy play and allins.... wtf are you talking about? puma won nasl, and I don't think winning iem and nasl is something a "shit" player would do. Also, MC was the one who played sloppily. He should have made better decisions in game 1, and just got outplayed the other 2 games.
I said he was shit compared to MVP which is 100% true.
MVP has excellent mechanics and godlike multitasking. Puma is just another terran taking advantage of how forgiving making mistakes is with the race.......
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On September 09 2011 08:54 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:On September 09 2011 08:30 Rorschach wrote:On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL. GTFO.... Puma is shit compared to MVP yet Puma was able to take MC with very sloppy play and allins.... wtf are you talking about? puma won nasl, and I don't think winning iem and nasl is something a "shit" player would do. Also, MC was the one who played sloppily. He should have made better decisions in game 1, and just got outplayed the other 2 games. I said he was shit compared to MVP which is 100% true. MVP has excellent mechanics and godlike multitasking. Puma is just another terran taking advantage of how forgiving making mistakes is with the race.......
Seriously, please stop. MVP is better than puma, but puma ain't shit... He was flash practice partner... do you know what that mean man ?
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I must say that I'm also disappointed that an article that involves such strong, one-sided statements is on the front page of TL, even if these statements are indeed all arcuate - even obvious. I wont pretend that I am in a position to judge these statements, however, I do feel that TL should be very careful when they put something like this on the front page. I'd rather see that TL (as a whole, not players individually) remains strictly neutral and professional when it comes to balance, and the like, that can potentially hurt the solidity of the game. Unfortunately Starcraft 2 isn't like a ''real'' sport in this regard. I'm sure foodball players also blame their underperformance on anything at all between the havens and the earth when they fall short, however, as football is more solid and simple at its core mechanics, it's hardly as believable when a football player blames his lack of success on his shoes, the football, ect, as it is when a starcraft 2 player blames in on balance. Therefore Starcraft 2 needs strong, solid foundations like TL (expert in this situation, imo), all the more.
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when protoss starts using more than one army ctrl group ill consider their QQ
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 09 2011 08:21 Tacoss23 wrote:
Not to hate on MC or anything, but I don't agree with much what it was said on the article. This guy was the ultimate "bitbybitprime" of BW. I mean they made fun of him everywhere in SC-BW for his "suicide" style of playing.
I always said, MC is just a temporal phenomenon. SC2 is a new game, people are figuring out stuff and abusive strats pop up every single week, that's the environment of a dream for all-in/not so talented players like "fish-protoss" aka as MC.
In my opinion that's the only reason MC did well in the first year of competitive SC2. Sure, he got better in the process, but honestly he is still at the very basics, the same all-inish abusive style of player he was in BW, which in the long run (and with the help of balance) will fade out.And thats exactly what started to happen few months ago already.
Props to him for taking advantage of the opportunity thou.
Lol you are so delusional. MC has the best macro of any protoss, seriously he rarely does all ins, not anymore than MVP. he started to "fade out" a few months ago according to you, yet he is still the most successful player of all time in sc2, and the best performing protoss for a year. Your ignorance is seriously astounding, it's not like MC has been replaced by superior and better performing protoss. MC is the only protoss to accomplish anything in korea and to call him untalented is an insult and completely retarded, not only to him but the protoss players that haven't even accomplished a fraction of what he has.
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On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL.
Blizzard said explicitly that the mothership wasn't even intended for competitive play, it's a piece of candy for casual gamers.
"There are some units that just aren't going to be used at "high" levels of play and the Mothership is probably one of them. We currently don't have any plans to change this unit."
Cited from the community manager in this b.net forum: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1020823601?page=4#71
I'm amazed at how resiliant people like you are to cold, hard, numerical facts. http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png
If one of the races remains as under powered and dysfunctional as P is now and as Z was six months ago for very long sc2 will lose it's credibility as an esport. Pull your head out of your ass and be a team player, we need to care more about the game than about our individual races or the pro's who play them.
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On September 09 2011 09:02 Spacedude wrote:
I must say that I'm also disappointed that an article that involves such strong, one-sided statements is on the front page of TL, even if these statements are indeed all arcuate - even obvious. I wont pretend that I am in a position to judge these statements, however, I do feel that TL should be very careful when they put something like this on the front page. I'd rather see that TL (as a whole, not players individually) remains strictly neutal and professional when it comes to balance and the like that can potentially hurt the solidity of the game. Unfortunately Starcraft 2 isn't like a 'real' sport in this regard. I'm sure foodball players also blame their underperformance on anything at all between the havens and the earth when they fall short, however, as foodball is more solid at its core mechanics, it's hardly as believable when a foodball player blames his lack of success on his shoes, ect, as it is when a starcraft 2 player blames in on balance. Therefore Starcraft 2 needs solid foundations like TL all the more.
I disagree with the idea that TL should just ignore imbalance even if it exists, merely for the sake of preserving the "solidity" of the game (if I misinterpreted your statement and you're not actually saying that, then I apologize, but that's what I gleaned from it). If the game is truly imbalanced, it needs to be acknowledged. TL and any other big community site/figure should not just censor admittances of imbalance if it does indeed exist. There seems to be an opinion popular among many posters here that the success or lack thereof of players is some sort of sacred concept that balance should not be considered a part of because some notion of legitimacy needs to be preserved, but the reality of things is that balance is THE core aspect of how games actually play out as strategies are developed, and thus, really shouldn't be ignored, since it does indeed affect how successful or unsuccessful various players are. Bottom line: If you don't have a balanced game, you don't have a competitively legitimate one, and if the game truly isn't balanced at the highest level, then ignoring it for the sake of preserving a false notion of legitimacy doesn't help things at all. It's essentially covering up to preserve an image that isn't even a reality.
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On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM.
Idra didn't play anywhere near perfection during that series, and quite frankly Morrow just outplayed him, and easily deserved the win more.
No way to argue imbalance from that. Blizzard should bring back the old reapers and see how it plays out for a few months.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Well, I've been inactive for more than 8 months and looking at the patch logs and top ladder once in a while, I still deduce two things:
- People are arguing about an unfinished game.
- The patch policy is one-dimensional and cuts out extremes. Nothing is really good at something. Blizzard balances out by forbidding strong mechanics.
- SC2 Vanilla is at least slightly imbalanced in the current map pool.
Thus I'm currently not interested in playing this game. I've identified such deficiencies in Blizzard's games before and it is only a logical, very democratic answer to the complaints of the community. Sadly, Blizzard is not precise enough to conduct a better policy.
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On September 09 2011 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:54 Rorschach wrote:On September 09 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:On September 09 2011 08:30 Rorschach wrote:On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL. GTFO.... Puma is shit compared to MVP yet Puma was able to take MC with very sloppy play and allins.... wtf are you talking about? puma won nasl, and I don't think winning iem and nasl is something a "shit" player would do. Also, MC was the one who played sloppily. He should have made better decisions in game 1, and just got outplayed the other 2 games. I said he was shit compared to MVP which is 100% true. MVP has excellent mechanics and godlike multitasking. Puma is just another terran taking advantage of how forgiving making mistakes is with the race....... Seriously, please stop. MVP is better than puma, but puma ain't shit... He was flash practice partner... do you know what that mean man ?
im far from saying puma is not a good player but using broodwar accomplishments isnt the best way go gauge a person's sc2 skill
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Great now everybody will try to cite this article as some sort of "proof" (lol) of imbalance as protoss. Protoss may not be super-terran-imba-strong at the highest level of play, but that doesn't affect you diamond/master-leaguers who just can't macro or use one hotkey for your army. Protoss is plenty strong at your level.
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On September 09 2011 09:20 pieisamazing wrote:
Great now everybody will try to cite this article as some sort of "proof" (lol) of imbalance as protoss. Protoss may not be super-terran-imba-strong at the highest level of play, but that doesn't affect you diamond/master-leaguers who just can't macro or use one hotkey for your army. Protoss is plenty strong at your level.
No one gives a shit about that. We're tired of seeing GSL completely ruined by 1/1/1 and GomTvTvTvTvTvTvT.
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On September 09 2011 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 08:54 Rorschach wrote:On September 09 2011 08:32 kofman wrote:On September 09 2011 08:30 Rorschach wrote:On September 09 2011 08:10 kofman wrote:
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL. GTFO.... Puma is shit compared to MVP yet Puma was able to take MC with very sloppy play and allins.... wtf are you talking about? puma won nasl, and I don't think winning iem and nasl is something a "shit" player would do. Also, MC was the one who played sloppily. He should have made better decisions in game 1, and just got outplayed the other 2 games. I said he was shit compared to MVP which is 100% true. MVP has excellent mechanics and godlike multitasking. Puma is just another terran taking advantage of how forgiving making mistakes is with the race....... Seriously, please stop. MVP is better than puma, but puma ain't shit... He was flash practice partner... do you know what that mean man ?
Okay. I hate this statement. "PuMa was Flash's practice partner."
Everybody was everybody's practice partner. Flash practiced with the entirety of his team and players outside of it. What you might want to say is that he was known for being extremely good in practice (he was), but saying that he was Flash's practice partner means very little in the entire scheme of things.
That said, yeah, no, PuMa is not shit compared to MVP. If PuMa's shit compared to MVP, then every Terran who is not Bomber is also absolute shit (and Bomber only just because he's nowhere near as consistent as MVP). Yes, PuMa plays one of the more "abusive" TvP styles -- hey, just like MC played one of the most abusive Protoss styles! -- but he's still very, very good and saying otherwise is selling him short.
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EPT
