Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way.
I think that overall terran players are better than protoss players. I've backed it up with proof. You just say what I say in sarcastic tones.
Actually, you have not shown any proof what-so-ever. The only "proof" you have shown is that you claim, in some discombobulate rush, that the Terran players are magically better some how. The stats on the other hand, are hard solid proof. Just because you write everything in bold doesn't make it proof.
It is pretty obvious you are not interested in a balanced game, you just want your race to be as strong as possible. Which unfortunately is the basis for most balance whine in all directions, especially amongst recently registered users such as yourself. However, at some point you have to step back and look at the bigger picture. I myself think that the race I play is too strong and too forgiving. It makes it boring to watch the high concept tournaments as they mostly consist of one race, with a few zergs thrown in.
I was going to stop after someone said that I only believe about things which affect my race. But this game means alot to me. To say that I care only about myself is dumb. I've made THREADS talking about solutions rather than imbalance.
I just don't see Hong un's on the calibar of MMA's. I don't see San's or Inca's which have been brought up as possible "leaders" for protoss. I've said before JYP, sage, Tassador, and Puzzle have impressed me and I'm looking forward to see how they do.(Puzzle got ro16, w/e. Nestea was a horrible zerg season 1.)
I see MC making a mistake which cost him the game. I say that that means its not imbalanced. I don't believe that if you can stop something with a reasonable amount of skill(compared to your opponet, puma and mc even).
Heck to be technical I still thought the reaper nerf was too soon and I believed that zerg's had been starting to find a solution to it(14 gas 14 pool was being formed.)
Furthormore I'm sorry if I sound agressive at times I am very engaged during debates and sometimes it comes across negatively.
This sentence basically proves that it is an exercise in futility to discuss balance with you...I mean if you though 5 rax reaper nerf was too soon...you would have 0 protoss in code s before considering imbalance. I mean that shit was fucking broken. Clearly we want different things out of this game...I for one don't want the best protoss in the world to be beaten easily by puma using a strategy he could employ with 1 hand but hey thats just me.
Condor Hero is right, everyone see it. Pandain doesn´t seem to really understand what´s going on. So why keep on smashing it in his head Condor?
He doesn´t see anything wrong with the 20 terrans vs 5 protosses statistic.
He doesn´t see anything wrong with 1/1/1 sufficing mediocre terrans to beat the top 3 protosses in the world
He doesn´t see anything wrong with 1 race having too many super strong viable options to open with off of 1 base, while also being the hardest race to scout, that is perfectly normal to him.
Also he doesn´t see anything wrong with the only 2-3 openings that you need to do blindly as protoss vs terran to hold 1/1/1 are terrible against f.x 3 rax openings/2 rax pressure or CC in base into fast expand openings.
So why beat your head against the wall you mighty good Condor Hero?
On September 09 2011 04:43 SeaSwift wrote: The notion of foreign players ever "commanding the helm" of play that affects Korea at all seems absurd to me
I read through your entire post (even though obviously you started writing it before acknowledging or perhaps reading all of mine) and despite trudging through the obvious pro-MC fanboy remarks and Korean elitism, I couldn't stand to see this sentence go untouched.
To say that the mass-Infestor based style of play wasn't popularized outside of Korea is VERY wrong, and to say that it isn't one of the major steps in Zergs success in ZvP is also very wrong. How then, can you say that foreigners don't influence Korean play? Do you think that Korea has a giant-ass shield around the country protecting them from different ideas, and that foreigners have nothing of value to share to the metagame? Get the stick out of your ass.
You obviously didn't recognize me acknowledging MC's superior micro techniques in the storm drop, but also you don't realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MATCHUP. That's what I mean by innovative... the 1-1-1 is innovative. Spanishiwa style is innovative. It's shit like that that changes the matchup, not one micro technique. By the way, he also wasn't the first to do it:
I guarantee you that in 2-3 months the 1-1-1 will no longer be a problem (whether it be due to a patch or not), just like EVERY OTHER CHEESE. This game is so young and is moving so fast that this one strategy will be stopped by a Protoss that INNOVATES, and popularizes that method, whatever it may be. MC right now is not that Protoss.
People complaining about the 1-1-1 I feel don't have the matchup's long-term viability in mind because maybe they're tired of seeing their favorite players lose, or they want their damn ladder points back, or maybe they're just tired of Terran bullshit. However, it saddens me that while it is maddening to lose to that shit, it's small potatoes. It's small potatoes, and just like BW has shown us, there will be Boxers and Bisus and Saviors. There will people who are good at this game beyond the actually keyboard and mouse, and that's where the game will evolve.
And it saddens me that not many people share this view, and instead would rather carry a pitchfork and yell at people like me for disagreeing.
Compare 1-1-1 to any other one base all-in. The truth is it is a completely different beast than anything else we've seen in SC2.
1-1-1 is a heavy teching build that ends with terran having access to almost every unit in it's arsenal. 4 gating leaves you with no tech except warp gates. 3 gate stargate is the closest toss gets, and that can't even make half the toss units
1-1-1 is adaptable to almost any situation (banshees/medivacs/vikings/raven) 4 gating can be done with 2 gas to get more stalkers/ a couple sentries
1-1-1 never runs out of resources since OCs can lift off and move, as seen when Puma beat MC with his second wave. 4 gate and 3 gate stargate can't even be fully supported off of just one base.
In the same vein, 1-1-1 can pull scvs and continue production. If other races pull their workers, it really is win or lose right there.
1-1-1 can be scouted and prepared for 5 minutes in advance and still give the terran a decisive victory. I guarantee that if a pro knew any toss/zerg all-in was coming that far ahead of time, they would be able to stop it.
100% of this post is true, however, that doesn't change the important part: that in a few months, this will be small potatoes. Someone (that's really vague, I know) will discover and popularize some build order or technique or metagame change that holds this off, and this won't become a big deal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I know that that statement is very vague, but there's no better way to state it. This game is moving so fast (hell, this all-in has only become popular in what, the last month?) that this is a small period in the game and I think (although I may be wrong) that the 1-1-1 will be antiquated due to the efforts of a Protoss player, not a Terran nerf.
People don't remember BW days before Boxer, where Zerg had 129867195 different ways to kill you, and then suddenly 3 really damn good Terran players turned TvZ into a joke for Zerg... until Savior came along. It's all a giant circle, that wasn't changed by a patch, it was changed by strategies and techniques by human beings. It'll be the same for SC2, it just hasn't happened yet.
But then again, I may be wrong. They're patching this game at a ridiculous rate, even though we haven't really seen this game mature at all (I still think that late game Protoss and Terran airplay hasn't been played around with enough yet...).
Either way, this is small potatoes. The thing about this game is that in no way is someone hopeless and caged because they play a certain race. This is because 1) Protoss players are still winning, albeit not as often as the other races and 2) there are still Protoss players left! If the state of Protoss and the 1-1-1 were as bad as everyone is making it seem, everyone would have switched to Terran already.
I feel like I should just put everything I've said in a manifesto because I don't think anyone agrees with me :/
At this rate there won't be any protoss in code s. None of the code s nor code a protoss even present a threat to the top terrans or zergs now that MC has fallen. It is as bad as everyone is making it seem. You act like 1/1/1 is some complex style that just needs to be deciphered...it's a 1 base all in is simple, but too powerful, if there were a reliable solution it would have been found.
Give it time, it's only been a month or so.
And is the fact that there aren't any threatening Protoss the fault of the race or the players? Is MVP a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Terran? Is Nestea a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Zerg?
I think Protoss don't have any good players at the moment, compared to Terran or Zerg. And in that case, having no Protoss in Code S is perfectly OK, because Code S is for only the best Starcraft players.
On September 09 2011 04:43 SeaSwift wrote: The notion of foreign players ever "commanding the helm" of play that affects Korea at all seems absurd to me
I read through your entire post (even though obviously you started writing it before acknowledging or perhaps reading all of mine) and despite trudging through the obvious pro-MC fanboy remarks and Korean elitism, I couldn't stand to see this sentence go untouched.
To say that the mass-Infestor based style of play wasn't popularized outside of Korea is VERY wrong, and to say that it isn't one of the major steps in Zergs success in ZvP is also very wrong. How then, can you say that foreigners don't influence Korean play? Do you think that Korea has a giant-ass shield around the country protecting them from different ideas, and that foreigners have nothing of value to share to the metagame? Get the stick out of your ass.
You obviously didn't recognize me acknowledging MC's superior micro techniques in the storm drop, but also you don't realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MATCHUP. That's what I mean by innovative... the 1-1-1 is innovative. Spanishiwa style is innovative. It's shit like that that changes the matchup, not one micro technique. By the way, he also wasn't the first to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98
I guarantee you that in 2-3 months the 1-1-1 will no longer be a problem (whether it be due to a patch or not), just like EVERY OTHER CHEESE. This game is so young and is moving so fast that this one strategy will be stopped by a Protoss that INNOVATES, and popularizes that method, whatever it may be. MC right now is not that Protoss.
People complaining about the 1-1-1 I feel don't have the matchup's long-term viability in mind because maybe they're tired of seeing their favorite players lose, or they want their damn ladder points back, or maybe they're just tired of Terran bullshit. However, it saddens me that while it is maddening to lose to that shit, it's small potatoes. It's small potatoes, and just like BW has shown us, there will be Boxers and Bisus and Saviors. There will people who are good at this game beyond the actually keyboard and mouse, and that's where the game will evolve.
And it saddens me that not many people share this view, and instead would rather carry a pitchfork and yell at people like me for disagreeing.
Compare 1-1-1 to any other one base all-in. The truth is it is a completely different beast than anything else we've seen in SC2.
1-1-1 is a heavy teching build that ends with terran having access to almost every unit in it's arsenal. 4 gating leaves you with no tech except warp gates. 3 gate stargate is the closest toss gets, and that can't even make half the toss units
1-1-1 is adaptable to almost any situation (banshees/medivacs/vikings/raven) 4 gating can be done with 2 gas to get more stalkers/ a couple sentries
1-1-1 never runs out of resources since OCs can lift off and move, as seen when Puma beat MC with his second wave. 4 gate and 3 gate stargate can't even be fully supported off of just one base.
In the same vein, 1-1-1 can pull scvs and continue production. If other races pull their workers, it really is win or lose right there.
1-1-1 can be scouted and prepared for 5 minutes in advance and still give the terran a decisive victory. I guarantee that if a pro knew any toss/zerg all-in was coming that far ahead of time, they would be able to stop it.
100% of this post is true, however, that doesn't change the important part: that in a few months, this will be small potatoes. Someone (that's really vague, I know) will discover and popularize some build order or technique or metagame change that holds this off, and this won't become a big deal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I know that that statement is very vague, but there's no better way to state it. This game is moving so fast (hell, this all-in has only become popular in what, the last month?) that this is a small period in the game and I think (although I may be wrong) that the 1-1-1 will be antiquated due to the efforts of a Protoss player, not a Terran nerf.
People don't remember BW days before Boxer, where Zerg had 129867195 different ways to kill you, and then suddenly 3 really damn good Terran players turned TvZ into a joke for Zerg... until Savior came along. It's all a giant circle, that wasn't changed by a patch, it was changed by strategies and techniques by human beings. It'll be the same for SC2, it just hasn't happened yet.
But then again, I may be wrong. They're patching this game at a ridiculous rate, even though we haven't really seen this game mature at all (I still think that late game Protoss and Terran airplay hasn't been played around with enough yet...).
Either way, this is small potatoes. The thing about this game is that in no way is someone hopeless and caged because they play a certain race. This is because 1) Protoss players are still winning, albeit not as often as the other races and 2) there are still Protoss players left! If the state of Protoss and the 1-1-1 were as bad as everyone is making it seem, everyone would have switched to Terran already.
I feel like I should just put everything I've said in a manifesto because I don't think anyone agrees with me :/
At this rate there won't be any protoss in code s. None of the code s nor code a protoss even present a threat to the top terrans or zergs now that MC has fallen. It is as bad as everyone is making it seem. You act like 1/1/1 is some complex style that just needs to be deciphered...it's a 1 base all in is simple, but too powerful, if there were a reliable solution it would have been found.
Give it time, it's only been a month or so.
And is the fact that there aren't any threatening Protoss the fault of the race or the players? Is MVP a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Terran? Is Nestea a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Zerg?
I think Protoss don't have any good players at the moment, compared to Terran or Zerg. And in that case, having no Protoss in Code S is perfectly OK, because Code S is for only the best Starcraft players.
Yeah protoss is fine, lets instead side with the idea of a statistical impossiblity Inherently only shitty players pick protoss, I like that idea. Seriously protoss could have a 0 percent winrate and people would still tell them to l2p.
On September 09 2011 04:43 SeaSwift wrote: The notion of foreign players ever "commanding the helm" of play that affects Korea at all seems absurd to me
I read through your entire post (even though obviously you started writing it before acknowledging or perhaps reading all of mine) and despite trudging through the obvious pro-MC fanboy remarks and Korean elitism, I couldn't stand to see this sentence go untouched.
To say that the mass-Infestor based style of play wasn't popularized outside of Korea is VERY wrong, and to say that it isn't one of the major steps in Zergs success in ZvP is also very wrong. How then, can you say that foreigners don't influence Korean play? Do you think that Korea has a giant-ass shield around the country protecting them from different ideas, and that foreigners have nothing of value to share to the metagame? Get the stick out of your ass.
You obviously didn't recognize me acknowledging MC's superior micro techniques in the storm drop, but also you don't realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MATCHUP. That's what I mean by innovative... the 1-1-1 is innovative. Spanishiwa style is innovative. It's shit like that that changes the matchup, not one micro technique. By the way, he also wasn't the first to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98
I guarantee you that in 2-3 months the 1-1-1 will no longer be a problem (whether it be due to a patch or not), just like EVERY OTHER CHEESE. This game is so young and is moving so fast that this one strategy will be stopped by a Protoss that INNOVATES, and popularizes that method, whatever it may be. MC right now is not that Protoss.
People complaining about the 1-1-1 I feel don't have the matchup's long-term viability in mind because maybe they're tired of seeing their favorite players lose, or they want their damn ladder points back, or maybe they're just tired of Terran bullshit. However, it saddens me that while it is maddening to lose to that shit, it's small potatoes. It's small potatoes, and just like BW has shown us, there will be Boxers and Bisus and Saviors. There will people who are good at this game beyond the actually keyboard and mouse, and that's where the game will evolve.
And it saddens me that not many people share this view, and instead would rather carry a pitchfork and yell at people like me for disagreeing.
Compare 1-1-1 to any other one base all-in. The truth is it is a completely different beast than anything else we've seen in SC2.
1-1-1 is a heavy teching build that ends with terran having access to almost every unit in it's arsenal. 4 gating leaves you with no tech except warp gates. 3 gate stargate is the closest toss gets, and that can't even make half the toss units
1-1-1 is adaptable to almost any situation (banshees/medivacs/vikings/raven) 4 gating can be done with 2 gas to get more stalkers/ a couple sentries
1-1-1 never runs out of resources since OCs can lift off and move, as seen when Puma beat MC with his second wave. 4 gate and 3 gate stargate can't even be fully supported off of just one base.
In the same vein, 1-1-1 can pull scvs and continue production. If other races pull their workers, it really is win or lose right there.
1-1-1 can be scouted and prepared for 5 minutes in advance and still give the terran a decisive victory. I guarantee that if a pro knew any toss/zerg all-in was coming that far ahead of time, they would be able to stop it.
100% of this post is true, however, that doesn't change the important part: that in a few months, this will be small potatoes. Someone (that's really vague, I know) will discover and popularize some build order or technique or metagame change that holds this off, and this won't become a big deal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I know that that statement is very vague, but there's no better way to state it. This game is moving so fast (hell, this all-in has only become popular in what, the last month?) that this is a small period in the game and I think (although I may be wrong) that the 1-1-1 will be antiquated due to the efforts of a Protoss player, not a Terran nerf.
People don't remember BW days before Boxer, where Zerg had 129867195 different ways to kill you, and then suddenly 3 really damn good Terran players turned TvZ into a joke for Zerg... until Savior came along. It's all a giant circle, that wasn't changed by a patch, it was changed by strategies and techniques by human beings. It'll be the same for SC2, it just hasn't happened yet.
But then again, I may be wrong. They're patching this game at a ridiculous rate, even though we haven't really seen this game mature at all (I still think that late game Protoss and Terran airplay hasn't been played around with enough yet...).
Either way, this is small potatoes. The thing about this game is that in no way is someone hopeless and caged because they play a certain race. This is because 1) Protoss players are still winning, albeit not as often as the other races and 2) there are still Protoss players left! If the state of Protoss and the 1-1-1 were as bad as everyone is making it seem, everyone would have switched to Terran already.
I feel like I should just put everything I've said in a manifesto because I don't think anyone agrees with me :/
At this rate there won't be any protoss in code s. None of the code s nor code a protoss even present a threat to the top terrans or zergs now that MC has fallen. It is as bad as everyone is making it seem. You act like 1/1/1 is some complex style that just needs to be deciphered...it's a 1 base all in is simple, but too powerful, if there were a reliable solution it would have been found.
Give it time, it's only been a month or so.
And is the fact that there aren't any threatening Protoss the fault of the race or the players? Is MVP a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Terran? Is Nestea a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Zerg?
I think Protoss don't have any good players at the moment, compared to Terran or Zerg. And in that case, having no Protoss in Code S is perfectly OK, because Code S is for only the best Starcraft players.
Yeah protoss is fine, lets instead side with the idea of a statistical impossiblity Inherently only shitty players pick protoss, I like that idea.
I didn't vocalize my point correctly. I meant on the highest level of play, with the Nesteas, MVPs and Julys and such. I don't think there is a Protoss at the moment that has proven he deserves to be there.
On September 09 2011 04:43 SeaSwift wrote: The notion of foreign players ever "commanding the helm" of play that affects Korea at all seems absurd to me
I read through your entire post (even though obviously you started writing it before acknowledging or perhaps reading all of mine) and despite trudging through the obvious pro-MC fanboy remarks and Korean elitism, I couldn't stand to see this sentence go untouched.
To say that the mass-Infestor based style of play wasn't popularized outside of Korea is VERY wrong, and to say that it isn't one of the major steps in Zergs success in ZvP is also very wrong. How then, can you say that foreigners don't influence Korean play? Do you think that Korea has a giant-ass shield around the country protecting them from different ideas, and that foreigners have nothing of value to share to the metagame? Get the stick out of your ass.
You obviously didn't recognize me acknowledging MC's superior micro techniques in the storm drop, but also you don't realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MATCHUP. That's what I mean by innovative... the 1-1-1 is innovative. Spanishiwa style is innovative. It's shit like that that changes the matchup, not one micro technique. By the way, he also wasn't the first to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98
I guarantee you that in 2-3 months the 1-1-1 will no longer be a problem (whether it be due to a patch or not), just like EVERY OTHER CHEESE. This game is so young and is moving so fast that this one strategy will be stopped by a Protoss that INNOVATES, and popularizes that method, whatever it may be. MC right now is not that Protoss.
People complaining about the 1-1-1 I feel don't have the matchup's long-term viability in mind because maybe they're tired of seeing their favorite players lose, or they want their damn ladder points back, or maybe they're just tired of Terran bullshit. However, it saddens me that while it is maddening to lose to that shit, it's small potatoes. It's small potatoes, and just like BW has shown us, there will be Boxers and Bisus and Saviors. There will people who are good at this game beyond the actually keyboard and mouse, and that's where the game will evolve.
And it saddens me that not many people share this view, and instead would rather carry a pitchfork and yell at people like me for disagreeing.
Compare 1-1-1 to any other one base all-in. The truth is it is a completely different beast than anything else we've seen in SC2.
1-1-1 is a heavy teching build that ends with terran having access to almost every unit in it's arsenal. 4 gating leaves you with no tech except warp gates. 3 gate stargate is the closest toss gets, and that can't even make half the toss units
1-1-1 is adaptable to almost any situation (banshees/medivacs/vikings/raven) 4 gating can be done with 2 gas to get more stalkers/ a couple sentries
1-1-1 never runs out of resources since OCs can lift off and move, as seen when Puma beat MC with his second wave. 4 gate and 3 gate stargate can't even be fully supported off of just one base.
In the same vein, 1-1-1 can pull scvs and continue production. If other races pull their workers, it really is win or lose right there.
1-1-1 can be scouted and prepared for 5 minutes in advance and still give the terran a decisive victory. I guarantee that if a pro knew any toss/zerg all-in was coming that far ahead of time, they would be able to stop it.
100% of this post is true, however, that doesn't change the important part: that in a few months, this will be small potatoes. Someone (that's really vague, I know) will discover and popularize some build order or technique or metagame change that holds this off, and this won't become a big deal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I know that that statement is very vague, but there's no better way to state it. This game is moving so fast (hell, this all-in has only become popular in what, the last month?) that this is a small period in the game and I think (although I may be wrong) that the 1-1-1 will be antiquated due to the efforts of a Protoss player, not a Terran nerf.
People don't remember BW days before Boxer, where Zerg had 129867195 different ways to kill you, and then suddenly 3 really damn good Terran players turned TvZ into a joke for Zerg... until Savior came along. It's all a giant circle, that wasn't changed by a patch, it was changed by strategies and techniques by human beings. It'll be the same for SC2, it just hasn't happened yet.
But then again, I may be wrong. They're patching this game at a ridiculous rate, even though we haven't really seen this game mature at all (I still think that late game Protoss and Terran airplay hasn't been played around with enough yet...).
Either way, this is small potatoes. The thing about this game is that in no way is someone hopeless and caged because they play a certain race. This is because 1) Protoss players are still winning, albeit not as often as the other races and 2) there are still Protoss players left! If the state of Protoss and the 1-1-1 were as bad as everyone is making it seem, everyone would have switched to Terran already.
I feel like I should just put everything I've said in a manifesto because I don't think anyone agrees with me :/
At this rate there won't be any protoss in code s. None of the code s nor code a protoss even present a threat to the top terrans or zergs now that MC has fallen. It is as bad as everyone is making it seem. You act like 1/1/1 is some complex style that just needs to be deciphered...it's a 1 base all in is simple, but too powerful, if there were a reliable solution it would have been found.
Give it time, it's only been a month or so.
And is the fact that there aren't any threatening Protoss the fault of the race or the players? Is MVP a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Terran? Is Nestea a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Zerg?
I think Protoss don't have any good players at the moment, compared to Terran or Zerg. And in that case, having no Protoss in Code S is perfectly OK, because Code S is for only the best Starcraft players.
Yeah protoss is fine, lets instead side with the idea of a statistical impossiblity Inherently only shitty players pick protoss, I like that idea.
I didn't vocalize my point correctly. I meant on the highest level of play, with the Nesteas, MVPs and Julys and such. I don't think there is a Protoss at the moment that has proven he deserves to be there.
I hate people like this who think its ALL the players and has nothing to do with the racial imbalance....
On September 09 2011 04:43 SeaSwift wrote: The notion of foreign players ever "commanding the helm" of play that affects Korea at all seems absurd to me
I read through your entire post (even though obviously you started writing it before acknowledging or perhaps reading all of mine) and despite trudging through the obvious pro-MC fanboy remarks and Korean elitism, I couldn't stand to see this sentence go untouched.
To say that the mass-Infestor based style of play wasn't popularized outside of Korea is VERY wrong, and to say that it isn't one of the major steps in Zergs success in ZvP is also very wrong. How then, can you say that foreigners don't influence Korean play? Do you think that Korea has a giant-ass shield around the country protecting them from different ideas, and that foreigners have nothing of value to share to the metagame? Get the stick out of your ass.
You obviously didn't recognize me acknowledging MC's superior micro techniques in the storm drop, but also you don't realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MATCHUP. That's what I mean by innovative... the 1-1-1 is innovative. Spanishiwa style is innovative. It's shit like that that changes the matchup, not one micro technique. By the way, he also wasn't the first to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98
I guarantee you that in 2-3 months the 1-1-1 will no longer be a problem (whether it be due to a patch or not), just like EVERY OTHER CHEESE. This game is so young and is moving so fast that this one strategy will be stopped by a Protoss that INNOVATES, and popularizes that method, whatever it may be. MC right now is not that Protoss.
People complaining about the 1-1-1 I feel don't have the matchup's long-term viability in mind because maybe they're tired of seeing their favorite players lose, or they want their damn ladder points back, or maybe they're just tired of Terran bullshit. However, it saddens me that while it is maddening to lose to that shit, it's small potatoes. It's small potatoes, and just like BW has shown us, there will be Boxers and Bisus and Saviors. There will people who are good at this game beyond the actually keyboard and mouse, and that's where the game will evolve.
And it saddens me that not many people share this view, and instead would rather carry a pitchfork and yell at people like me for disagreeing.
Compare 1-1-1 to any other one base all-in. The truth is it is a completely different beast than anything else we've seen in SC2.
1-1-1 is a heavy teching build that ends with terran having access to almost every unit in it's arsenal. 4 gating leaves you with no tech except warp gates. 3 gate stargate is the closest toss gets, and that can't even make half the toss units
1-1-1 is adaptable to almost any situation (banshees/medivacs/vikings/raven) 4 gating can be done with 2 gas to get more stalkers/ a couple sentries
1-1-1 never runs out of resources since OCs can lift off and move, as seen when Puma beat MC with his second wave. 4 gate and 3 gate stargate can't even be fully supported off of just one base.
In the same vein, 1-1-1 can pull scvs and continue production. If other races pull their workers, it really is win or lose right there.
1-1-1 can be scouted and prepared for 5 minutes in advance and still give the terran a decisive victory. I guarantee that if a pro knew any toss/zerg all-in was coming that far ahead of time, they would be able to stop it.
100% of this post is true, however, that doesn't change the important part: that in a few months, this will be small potatoes. Someone (that's really vague, I know) will discover and popularize some build order or technique or metagame change that holds this off, and this won't become a big deal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I know that that statement is very vague, but there's no better way to state it. This game is moving so fast (hell, this all-in has only become popular in what, the last month?) that this is a small period in the game and I think (although I may be wrong) that the 1-1-1 will be antiquated due to the efforts of a Protoss player, not a Terran nerf.
People don't remember BW days before Boxer, where Zerg had 129867195 different ways to kill you, and then suddenly 3 really damn good Terran players turned TvZ into a joke for Zerg... until Savior came along. It's all a giant circle, that wasn't changed by a patch, it was changed by strategies and techniques by human beings. It'll be the same for SC2, it just hasn't happened yet.
But then again, I may be wrong. They're patching this game at a ridiculous rate, even though we haven't really seen this game mature at all (I still think that late game Protoss and Terran airplay hasn't been played around with enough yet...).
Either way, this is small potatoes. The thing about this game is that in no way is someone hopeless and caged because they play a certain race. This is because 1) Protoss players are still winning, albeit not as often as the other races and 2) there are still Protoss players left! If the state of Protoss and the 1-1-1 were as bad as everyone is making it seem, everyone would have switched to Terran already.
I feel like I should just put everything I've said in a manifesto because I don't think anyone agrees with me :/
At this rate there won't be any protoss in code s. None of the code s nor code a protoss even present a threat to the top terrans or zergs now that MC has fallen. It is as bad as everyone is making it seem. You act like 1/1/1 is some complex style that just needs to be deciphered...it's a 1 base all in is simple, but too powerful, if there were a reliable solution it would have been found.
Give it time, it's only been a month or so.
And is the fact that there aren't any threatening Protoss the fault of the race or the players? Is MVP a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Terran? Is Nestea a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Zerg?
I think Protoss don't have any good players at the moment, compared to Terran or Zerg. And in that case, having no Protoss in Code S is perfectly OK, because Code S is for only the best Starcraft players.
Yeah protoss is fine, lets instead side with the idea of a statistical impossiblity Inherently only shitty players pick protoss, I like that idea.
I didn't vocalize my point correctly. I meant on the highest level of play, with the Nesteas, MVPs and Julys and such. I don't think there is a Protoss at the moment that has proven he deserves to be there.
protoss cant compete in mid tier code s either so... You telling me check and noblesse are better than MC? Ryung better tvp than Puzzle? Also its funny how MC magically isnt top tier anymore at the same time toss cant get anything done at all. Coincidence I'm sure.
On September 09 2011 07:04 KimJongChill wrote: I'm so glad that people are finally admitting that this game is not balanced.
There are only some that admit it's not balanced. Some are perfectly content with Terrans having a build that's not only safe against every Protoss all-in, but is a ridiculously strong all-in. Protoss have explored pretty much their whole race. The only units we haven't seen much at all is the carrier/mothership, and both of those conveniently are located up the protoss air tree, which quite frankly sucks. Terrans didn't start massing ghosts late game and destroying protoss til a buff came around. Same goes for Zergs and Infestors. Protoss have exhausted all the options available to the race at this point.
On September 09 2011 07:09 Roxy wrote: What do you guys think are some protoss units that could be explored more that might have some hidden potential?
I think the sentry has been explored as heavily as it will ever be.
I also feel like the majority of the protoss units are so one dimensional that they probably dont have too much hidden potential
I sure wish that fungal only slowed units, not stunned them. Pheonix could at least play a larger role against zerg.
This!
Like, really, what ARE protoss supposed to come up with?
Most Terran Units are really, idk, nasty. They need something special to take care of them. Didnt notice the hellions? GG. No Detection? GG. etc etc.
What does Protoss have?
Zealots? Not really something to explore. Stalker? Theyre kinda good for everything but not really good at anything. And in a straight up battle they loose to everything. Theyre only really dangerous in Blink-Timing attacks. Sentry? Makes P even playable but what would you explore here?
etc etc
I just dont see any P units that have the ability to flip the game around when unscouted and give instant wins. Most Protoss units are just simple damage dealers and rather bad at that. When Templar and Ghosts neutralize each other (and even that is hard to do) you have marauders and vikings against colossi and gateway stuff. Whos going to win that one?
I never understood why no one complains about ghosts. Invisible, undodgeable and good against everything. Carpet EMPs make me cringe everytime. Looks so stupid and unfair. Especially since all those units are so expensive. Even if you storm 20 marines, thats not the end, thats managable. But if your army just gets carpet emped?
I am not sure I would compare MC to flash they are 2 different games and in my opinion the skill of flash is on another level then MC and he is the best RTS player right now at one of the hardest RTS games ever made.
On September 09 2011 07:04 KimJongChill wrote: I'm so glad that people are finally admitting that this game is not balanced.
Tbf, even David Kim and Dustin Browder have recently said that they feel terran is too flexible and 'complete' in comparison to the other races and they seem to be aware of how strong terran is in korea in comparison to the other regions. They are apparently looking to fix this in HotS.
I can relate to people like pandain who want to allow the game to develop. I understand it. But there comes a point where you can't really ignore certain design issues that keep causing problems.
Toss has exhausted almost its entire roster of units, sans the Warp Prism. Both Z and T kept bashing their heads against the wall with Roach/Hydra/Corruptor or MMM + V and cried imba when their army comp of 3-4 tier 2, low micro units couldn't give them a victory.
Sorry, but it's been a major bur under my prostate when both of the other races cried out Toss imba when Toss used everything and they used half their strategies and drew conclusions from that.
On September 09 2011 07:04 KimJongChill wrote: I'm so glad that people are finally admitting that this game is not balanced.
There are only some that admit it's not balanced. Some are perfectly content with Terrans having a build that's not only safe against every Protoss all-in, but is a ridiculously strong all-in. Protoss have explored pretty much their whole race. The only units we haven't seen much at all is the carrier/mothership, and both of those conveniently are located up the protoss air tree, which quite frankly sucks. Terrans didn't start massing ghosts late game and destroying protoss til a buff came around. Same goes for Zergs and Infestors. Protoss have exhausted all the options available to the race at this point.
I love how Terran and Zerg (especially Zerg) QQ'ed so much about toss late game death balls when in fact Zerg discovered they have the sickest late game units (hive tech) and Terran bio with a splash of mech is so good all game long.
Why did both infestors and ghosts get buffed while KA amulet get removed with nothing to replace it? I really think if there is something to blame the current state of things on it is the caster changes in the last 5 months.
I fully agree that in tandem with the many weaknesses and inadequacies of the protoss army, a large degree of the shortfall in effectiveness can be attributed to the excessive cost effectiveness (and multiple uses) of the zerg and terran casters.
I found a rather humorous HT satire on the Blizz Forums
On September 09 2011 04:43 SeaSwift wrote: The notion of foreign players ever "commanding the helm" of play that affects Korea at all seems absurd to me
I read through your entire post (even though obviously you started writing it before acknowledging or perhaps reading all of mine) and despite trudging through the obvious pro-MC fanboy remarks and Korean elitism, I couldn't stand to see this sentence go untouched.
To say that the mass-Infestor based style of play wasn't popularized outside of Korea is VERY wrong, and to say that it isn't one of the major steps in Zergs success in ZvP is also very wrong. How then, can you say that foreigners don't influence Korean play? Do you think that Korea has a giant-ass shield around the country protecting them from different ideas, and that foreigners have nothing of value to share to the metagame? Get the stick out of your ass.
You obviously didn't recognize me acknowledging MC's superior micro techniques in the storm drop, but also you don't realize that IT DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MATCHUP. That's what I mean by innovative... the 1-1-1 is innovative. Spanishiwa style is innovative. It's shit like that that changes the matchup, not one micro technique. By the way, he also wasn't the first to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98
I guarantee you that in 2-3 months the 1-1-1 will no longer be a problem (whether it be due to a patch or not), just like EVERY OTHER CHEESE. This game is so young and is moving so fast that this one strategy will be stopped by a Protoss that INNOVATES, and popularizes that method, whatever it may be. MC right now is not that Protoss.
People complaining about the 1-1-1 I feel don't have the matchup's long-term viability in mind because maybe they're tired of seeing their favorite players lose, or they want their damn ladder points back, or maybe they're just tired of Terran bullshit. However, it saddens me that while it is maddening to lose to that shit, it's small potatoes. It's small potatoes, and just like BW has shown us, there will be Boxers and Bisus and Saviors. There will people who are good at this game beyond the actually keyboard and mouse, and that's where the game will evolve.
And it saddens me that not many people share this view, and instead would rather carry a pitchfork and yell at people like me for disagreeing.
Compare 1-1-1 to any other one base all-in. The truth is it is a completely different beast than anything else we've seen in SC2.
1-1-1 is a heavy teching build that ends with terran having access to almost every unit in it's arsenal. 4 gating leaves you with no tech except warp gates. 3 gate stargate is the closest toss gets, and that can't even make half the toss units
1-1-1 is adaptable to almost any situation (banshees/medivacs/vikings/raven) 4 gating can be done with 2 gas to get more stalkers/ a couple sentries
1-1-1 never runs out of resources since OCs can lift off and move, as seen when Puma beat MC with his second wave. 4 gate and 3 gate stargate can't even be fully supported off of just one base.
In the same vein, 1-1-1 can pull scvs and continue production. If other races pull their workers, it really is win or lose right there.
1-1-1 can be scouted and prepared for 5 minutes in advance and still give the terran a decisive victory. I guarantee that if a pro knew any toss/zerg all-in was coming that far ahead of time, they would be able to stop it.
100% of this post is true, however, that doesn't change the important part: that in a few months, this will be small potatoes. Someone (that's really vague, I know) will discover and popularize some build order or technique or metagame change that holds this off, and this won't become a big deal. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I know that that statement is very vague, but there's no better way to state it. This game is moving so fast (hell, this all-in has only become popular in what, the last month?) that this is a small period in the game and I think (although I may be wrong) that the 1-1-1 will be antiquated due to the efforts of a Protoss player, not a Terran nerf.
People don't remember BW days before Boxer, where Zerg had 129867195 different ways to kill you, and then suddenly 3 really damn good Terran players turned TvZ into a joke for Zerg... until Savior came along. It's all a giant circle, that wasn't changed by a patch, it was changed by strategies and techniques by human beings. It'll be the same for SC2, it just hasn't happened yet.
But then again, I may be wrong. They're patching this game at a ridiculous rate, even though we haven't really seen this game mature at all (I still think that late game Protoss and Terran airplay hasn't been played around with enough yet...).
Either way, this is small potatoes. The thing about this game is that in no way is someone hopeless and caged because they play a certain race. This is because 1) Protoss players are still winning, albeit not as often as the other races and 2) there are still Protoss players left! If the state of Protoss and the 1-1-1 were as bad as everyone is making it seem, everyone would have switched to Terran already.
I feel like I should just put everything I've said in a manifesto because I don't think anyone agrees with me :/
At this rate there won't be any protoss in code s. None of the code s nor code a protoss even present a threat to the top terrans or zergs now that MC has fallen. It is as bad as everyone is making it seem. You act like 1/1/1 is some complex style that just needs to be deciphered...it's a 1 base all in is simple, but too powerful, if there were a reliable solution it would have been found.
Give it time, it's only been a month or so.
And is the fact that there aren't any threatening Protoss the fault of the race or the players? Is MVP a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Terran? Is Nestea a good Starcraft player or is he good because he plays Zerg?
I think Protoss don't have any good players at the moment, compared to Terran or Zerg. And in that case, having no Protoss in Code S is perfectly OK, because Code S is for only the best Starcraft players.
Yeah protoss is fine, lets instead side with the idea of a statistical impossiblity Inherently only shitty players pick protoss, I like that idea.
I didn't vocalize my point correctly. I meant on the highest level of play, with the Nesteas, MVPs and Julys and such. I don't think there is a Protoss at the moment that has proven he deserves to be there.
MC absolutely stomped July in a Bo7 Code S final, and singularly produced two 50 page whine threads about the entirety of the Protoss race by doing so. The man has two GSL wins for Christ's sake, saying that he doesn't deserve to be up there, while July does, is a whole new level of fanboyism/denial.
If anything, this article suggest that he achieved all of this with a fundamentally weak race.
I love how Terran and Zerg (especially Zerg) QQ'ed so much about toss late game death balls when in fact Zerg discovered they have the sickest late game units (hive tech) and Terran bio with a splash of mech is so good all game long.
Why did both infestors and ghosts get buffed while KA amulet get removed with nothing to replace it? I really think if there is something to blame the current state of things on it is the caster changes in the last 5 months.
Protoss strategy before the infestor buff vs. Z was to 3 gate expand and sit at thier base until they had 6 collosi with no harassment or incetive to move out of thier base and still expect to win. To me that is pretty stupid. I agree with you on the KA amulet might have been a bit much and fungal is to strong now (Z players were even saying that [idra] as soon as the notes came out). Fungal is getting a nerf next patch, which is blizz recognizing that it is too strong, Toss is also getting a couple of buffs, so lets see what happens...
Thoroughly enjoyable post, as I was very surprised to see the nail hit so squarely on the head. I wasn't aware of the extent that Protoss was losing.
MC is still the Protoss President in my mind, and he has truly shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is of the highest caliber. The frightening part is that every Protoss' ability to win sets has declined similarly as well.
Spending more than a decade with Starcraft in my life has taught me that these lengthier periods of imbalance can potentially be cause for exodus, during a time that the game should be growing its population by 25% a year.
Wow, its sad to see even the TL admins become protoss whiners.
Seriously, just because your in love with MC, doesn't mean that Puma sucks, like you say in the article. The article by Treehugger makes me sick, it looks like something taken out of the bnet forums. Please, go cry somewhere else.
"Protoss have tried everything at their disposal." Really? This just shows how stupid this article is. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that motherships haven't been explored nearly enough. They have the amazing ability to vortex every unit into a tiny little space, and yet, no one has experimented with it. I'm just amazed at how this piece of complete bullshit was able to make it to the front page of TL.
EPT
Inherently only shitty players pick protoss, I like that idea. Seriously protoss could have a 0 percent winrate and people would still tell them to l2p.
