| Forum Index > News |
Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. | ||
|
Belisarius
Australia6231 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:07 DarkRise wrote: It's kinda ironic that the article about IEM is about the loser of the final. Puma has been robbed!!! I feel like that point of the article is that Puma was doing the robbing. Now, whether that's justified or not is a different issue. | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:10 Olinim wrote: Not my stats, I'm talking about korea only which Protoss is doing absolutely horribly in. also even in that graph the worst zerg was at is 40 percent winrate. Toss was at 29 percent in April. No 32% in april, and for one month, while zerg was around 40 and 45% win ratio during half of the year. | ||
|
Taesis
Canada51 Posts
| ||
|
Olinim
4044 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:11 WhiteDog wrote: No 32% in april, and for one month, while zerg was around 40 and 45% win ratio during half of the year. And zerg was rightfully buffed, and for months has stayed around 50 percent. Now protoss is barely even competitive in Korea and needs the same treatment. | ||
|
OlorinTheWise
United States173 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:06 QTIP. wrote: Heh I get you - I hope it didn't come off as dick-ish. Just poking fun at Blizz ^^ Nah, it was more amusing than anything.  Personally, I'm pondering how much hair they've pulled out over the Depot before Barracks nerf causing the 8 rax to become the 11/11 two rax, which provides every bit as much pressure, but is hugely more economical. >.> I wonder how long it would have taken it to become standard pressure versus Zerg if they hadn't made that nerf... | ||
|
babylon
8765 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:05 QTIP. wrote: I'm not sure about that tank nerf, but it doesn't sound too far from reality. I really don't know if David Kim knows what he's doing. It really bothers me when he says stuff like "Oh I got an email from ______ with a replay, and now I fixed it." As a fan you're just like -_-?? I actually think the map was Steppes of War. Sigh. I have so many grievances with Blizzard's balance team, but I'll stop while I'm ahead. I already had to wait for years and years to see if they could ever fix the UD vs. Orc match-up in WC3, but that never happened. | ||
|
robopork
United States511 Posts
On September 09 2011 09:59 WhiteDog wrote: Your stats doesn't show shit... When zerg were struggling protoss were saying no it's okay. Now protoss is struggling, but they are after a long time of zerg being downhill, they need a certain time to adapt to zerg new strenght. Also, there is a patch coming, with an immortal buff and a certain number of nerf... why not waiting that ? The entire zerg community was whining and everybody in the protoss community were there saying looks it's okay just use your units, you play like shit (incontrol was saying that...). Blizzard had to buff infestor... Now protoss whine like crazy because they actually have to innovate (and they even get a tribune in the front page of TL, which is pretty... well...) and integrate the new patch in their playstyle... Not that I jump at the opportunity to get in the face of a guy with 1000+ posts, but did you even think about my comment or see that I was defending protoss and decide to flame me for it? My point is that people should be on the side of balance, not P or Z or T. This is a continuation of the same graph that was cited all over when zerg was fighting their uphill battle largely (but not entirely) without sympathy. I'm a little wow'd by the lack of thought in your response. Your generalizations about every P user on TL based on what incontrol said on state of the game is a little sad, especially since that was the state of the game in which, when asked what units should be added to protoss, at least 2 of the protoss users in the interview responded by saying what units zerg was missing. The patch is coming, but the immortal buff is to fix PvT, I think. We'll see how the fungal nerf plays out. I find myself wondering, if numbers don't matter to you in balance conversations, what does? | ||
|
usethis2
2164 Posts
| ||
|
usethis2
2164 Posts
On September 09 2011 09:59 WhiteDog wrote: When zerg were struggling protoss were saying no it's okay. Some people said there were "undiscovered", or "invisible" doors that are waiting to be opened. XD | ||
|
QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:24 babylon wrote: I actually think the map was Steppes of War. Sigh. I have so many grievances with Blizzard's balance team, but I'll stop while I'm ahead. I already had to wait for years and years to see if they could ever fix the UD vs. Orc match-up in WC3, but that never happened. Steppes of War?? Really?? Ugh. T_T | ||
|
Perscienter
957 Posts
On September 09 2011 09:25 Toadvine wrote: I think blaming the patching policy and the community complaints that influence it is missing the main point. This game was just badly conceived from the get-go. There were bad ideas in it from the very beginning. Didn't we already see Warpgates in a 2008 gameplay presentation? The team responsible for designing SC2 dug this hole all by themselves. Any bad patching they've since had to do is an artifact of that process, more than anything else. Warp-in is a double-edged sword, not bad per se. I don't blame the complainers, I blame Blizzard of course. They are the decision-makers. They were certainly not forced to chose this patch path. It's just software and with that manpower you have a lot of freedom to adjust everything. They just decided to balance through nerfs again. It's probably a general problem of politics, corporations and their relationship to the public sphere. | ||
|
ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:32 usethis2 wrote: Some people said there were "undiscovered", or "invisible" doors that are waiting to be opened. XD The thing is When Zerg were struggling, they did not bother using infestors =/ Fungal growth did 36 damage back then and that is during 8 seconds. Sure they may not have done so much dps, but Protoss does NOT heal. Protoss said it was okay because Zergs never used Infestors =/ But when Protoss are struggling, what can either of the two races say? Nothing. We have been using all of our units because we had to and we have to. Warp prism drops are the only thing left, and even with the proper usage of them, they do not do enough damage (and you cannot save the units you warp in). That's about it ... The thing with Protoss is that because all of its units are SO damn specialized that to find out all paths of the decision tree is pretty easy. The problem with Terrans and Zergs is that they have so many possibilities that they cannot possibly span out all of their decision trees early game (Zerg especially) and when players were telling Zergs to stop whining and think. WhiteRa is using warp prisms ... but even then, realize that Protoss drops are essentially a "pay this much to see how much damage to do" where as Zerg and Terrans do not have to worry about the possibility of "HAVING" to lose that much. Anyway, that being said: One of our units is pretty much unusable (and that is the carrier), because you can't build enough of them, and they don't build fast enough =/ | ||
|
Spacedude
Denmark161 Posts
On September 09 2011 09:14 HolyArrow wrote: I disagree with the idea that TL should just ignore imbalance even if it exists, merely for the sake of preserving the "solidity" of the game (if I misinterpreted your statement and you're not actually saying that, then I apologize, but that's what I gleaned from it). If the game is truly imbalanced, it needs to be acknowledged. TL and any other big community site/figure should not just censor admittances of imbalance if it does indeed exist. There seems to be an opinion popular among many posters here that the success or lack thereof of players is some sort of sacred concept that balance should not be considered a part of because some notion of legitimacy needs to be preserved, but the reality of things is that balance is THE core aspect of how games actually play out as strategies are developed, and thus, really shouldn't be ignored, since it does indeed affect how successful or unsuccessful various players are. Bottom line: If you don't have a balanced game, you don't have a competitively legitimate one, and if the game truly isn't balanced at the highest level, then ignoring it for the sake of preserving a false notion of legitimacy doesn't help things at all. It's essentially covering up to preserve an image that isn't even a reality. What I ment is that they (TL) should leave these matters up to the board community while they themselves keep a professional distance to it. This is just my opinion, though. TL does strikes me, in general, as being very professional in these matters. The board community should naturally be allow to discuss balance in a thoughtful, objective manner. Also, I don't mind objective articles from TL or their staff on the main page. I'm very much against censorship of any kind. What I'm talking about is more a policy and role than actual censorship. Other than that I agree with you. | ||
|
usethis2
2164 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:41 ScythedBlade wrote: But when Protoss are struggling, what can either of the two races say? Nothing. We have been using all of our units because we had to and we have to. Warp prism drops are the only thing left, and even with the proper usage of them, they do not do enough damage (and you cannot save the units you warp in). Who are "we" you're referring to? If you're talking about people playing Protoss as main, that'd include me but I am not sure If I want to be in that "we". I play my games casually and I don't feel the game is imbalanced. And I know that's true to just about everyone in this forum. Only reason balance QQ bursts out is because these casual/non-pros somehow identify themselves with the pros. (and only the Korean ones) Yes, I see toss struggling in GSL and I'm not happy about that. Or rather, I'm not happy about terran dominance and following mass TvTs. It's not an enjoyable experience watching 30 mins of siege/unsiege. But I have noticed underhanded silencing of certain voices in TL forums and I as a free speech proponent was not comfortable with such a blatant bias. When toss was kicking zerg left and right there were so many bans were given out even to the slightest balance implication. (you post "Forcefield is balanced" while MC is kicking July's ass with forcefields, you get banned) Other than that I am not against the current outcry against the terran dominance. I've always stated/mantainted that Terran is the most finished race in current iteration of SC2, and it is because SC2 is, as much as you want it to be an e-sport, a goods in the market that Activision Blizzard must profit from for its shareholders. Expect the more polished zerg in HotS. "We" tosses are the last. | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:49 Ghanburighan wrote: This article is insulting, "If you haven't noticed that protoss sucks against terran, and has profound cost-efficiency difficulties against zerg, it’s because you're blind." Apparently, I'm blind. What happened to not balance whining on TL? LR threads have become such balance-whine cesspools (ok, they were bad before too, but it's so much worse now), and this article is fueling the anger. This article makes me profoundly sad. The thing is , that its not really balance whine anymore. Hes not talking about you have trouble with protoss in your platinum diamond low masters league. He is talking about how at the highest levels of play, protoss has some serious problems. Which they do and if you cant see that maybe you dont follow the scene closely enough or you havent seen the recent tournament statistics suggesting that this is true (especially in korea). I dont consider it balance whine when he is just discussing what is going on with protoss in the proffesional scene at the moment. Protoss are struggling and if you cant see that then its because your race bias has blinded you. I play zerg (although i used to play protoss) and i see it very clearly. I think its also less apparent in the foreign scene (if you only follow the foreign scene) because the level of play isnt quite as high, but unless serious changes are made (who knows if this next patch will help enough or not) then foreigners too will be subject to this clear discrepency between races. | ||
|
Olinim
4044 Posts
On September 09 2011 11:10 usethis2 wrote: Who are "we" you're referring to? If you're talking about people playing Protoss as main, that'd include me but I am not sure If I want to be in that "we". I play my games casually and I don't feel the game is imbalanced. And I know that's true to just about everyone in this forum. Only reason balance QQ bursts out is because these casual/non-pros are somehow identify themselves with the pros. (and only the Korean ones) Yes, I see toss struggling in GSL and I'm not happy about that. Or rather, I'm not happy about terran dominance and following mass TvTs. It's not an enjoyable experience watching 30 mins of siege/unsiege. But I have noticed underhanded silencing of certain voices in TL forums and I as a free speech proponent was not comfortable with such a blatant bias. When toss was kicking zerg left and right there were so many bans were given out even to the slightest balance implication. (you post "Forcefield is balanced" while MC is kicking July's ass with forcefields, you get banned) Other than that I am not against the current outcry against the terran dominance. I've always stated/mantainted that Terran is the most finished race in current iteration of SC2, and it is because SC2 is, as much as you want it to be an e-sport, a goods in the market that Activision Blizzard must profit from for its shareholders. Expect the more polished zerg in HotS. "We" tosses are the last. There's a difference between sarcastic one line balance comments in LR threads and balance discussion. And also this is their forum, there is no free speech they can ban you for whatever they want. | ||
|
cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On September 09 2011 11:10 usethis2 wrote: Who are "we" you're referring to? If you're talking about people playing Protoss as main, that'd include me but I am not sure If I want to be in that "we". I play my games casually and I don't feel the game is imbalanced. And I know that's true to just about everyone in this forum. Only reason balance QQ bursts out is because these casual/non-pros are somehow identify themselves with the pros. (and only the Korean ones) Yes, I see toss struggling in GSL and I'm not happy about that. Or rather, I'm not happy about terran dominance and following mass TvTs. It's not an enjoyable experience watching 30 mins of siege/unsiege. But I have noticed underhanded silencing of certain voices in TL forums and I as a free speech proponent was not comfortable with such a blatant bias. When toss was kicking zerg left and right there were so many bans were given out even to the slightest balance implication. (you post "Forcefield is balanced" while MC is kicking July's ass with forcefields, you get banned) Other than that I am not against the current outcry against the terran dominance. I've always stated/mantainted that Terran is the most finished race in current iteration of SC2, and it is because SC2 is, as much as you want it to be an e-sport, a goods in the market that Activision Blizzard must profit from for its shareholders. Expect the more polished zerg in HotS. "We" tosses are the last. The thing is that regardless of July getting his ass handed to him against MC their was something zergs could have done and they did do (along with some buffs they received) protoss have been consistently nerfed and i think the OP is pointing out that beyond these scary timing attacks (wich will eventually be figured out) protoss doesnt really have much going on for them at the moment (at the HIGHEST levels of play) This article is not discussing protoss imbalance for casual players playing ladder games, it is talking about protoss very apparent difficulties at the moment in the highest levels of play and how perhaps protoss has always had these holes in their race but players like MC where covering them up with very meticulous timing attacks that may have even made the protoss race look overpowered. Now that most of these timings have been figured out pretty well , we are starting to see where protoss is at when compared with the other races. | ||
|
usethis2
2164 Posts
On September 09 2011 11:17 Olinim wrote: There's a difference between sarcastic one line balance comments in LR threads and balance discussion. And also this is their forum, there is no free speech they can ban you for whatever they want. That was one example. Do you really expect me to go back and find the bazillion examples, especially the ones with same tone/nuisance/words/etc., but discriminatory to who posted? (It's not hard to find "EMP is balanced" in LR threads, btw.) | ||
|
jimchoi11
United States65 Posts
don't let there be a double standards when talking about players especially those that are supporting your players in Korea and helping them improve.... | ||
|
xajukx
Canada325 Posts
| ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Stormgate Dota 2 League of Legends Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games |
|
WardiTV Summer Champion…
RSL Revival
PiGosaur Monday
WardiTV Summer Champion…
The PondCast
WardiTV Summer Champion…
Replay Cast
LiuLi Cup
Online Event
SC Evo League
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
