Moon is only half right. During the IEM World Championship, Koreans did dominate the rest of the field, going 1-2-3 in the final standings and finally overcoming the jet-lag handicap that has crippled players like oGsInca and oGsTOP in the past when attending overseas events. But it would be more accurate to say that Korean training owns white dudes. Five out of five players with Korean training (Squirtle, Moon, mOOnGLaDe, IdrA, and Ace) made it to the bracket stage of the tournament, while only one out of the seven other players made it that far. A mediocre group of players from Korea went against the very best that the rest of the world had to offer, and the overall game record tells the tale: 40 wins, 10 losses.
It's safe to say that the impassible Korean-foreigner divide from Broodwar is alive and well, for now.
Those 40 wins, 10 losses included the amazing 4-round tiebreaker between Squirtle, Socke, and Sjow, a highlight of the IEM World Championship. At the end of group play, Sjow, Socke, and Squirtle were all 2-3 in their group, and to determine who would get the last spot in the group, they played each other in tiebreakers. However, the players went 1-1 against each other three times in a row, extending the ESL broadcast for hours longer than it had been scheduled. Socke showed that he has world class PvP by going 4-2 overall vs Squirtle; however, Squirtle eventually advanced after four long tiebreaker rounds, advancing fourth in his group and moving on to face Idra in the bracket rounds.
Socke vs Squirtle -- Game 5 of 6
One game in particular showcased Socke's deep understanding of PvP. This match took place on Xel'Naga Caverns during the third tiebreaker. In the previous tiebreakers, 4-gates had been common, and Socke used this fact to his advantage. He built his cybernetics core before his second pylon, in full view of Squirtle's probe, and chronoboosted his warp gate research without chronoboosting probes and gateway units, again letting Squirtle see what was going on. After Squirtle left, he only put up three gateways, but Squirtle, smelling a four warpgate, put up four in defense. Socke played the ruse out to the end, sending a probe to pretend to put up a proxy pylon near Squirtle's base.
This probe died to Squirtle's stalkers, a victim of his master's cunning plans
After a few minutes, it became clear to Squirtle that no 4 gate was coming, and he moved out to attempt to punish what he assumed would be a 3-gate expo by Socke. However, Socke had not put up an expo, going for 3 gate blink stalkers instead, and he routed his opponent's forces in the initial engagement. Squirtle retreated to his ramp, where he held off Socke's blink stalker attack. After that attack, Socke started chronoboosting probes, but didn't stop poking at Squirtle's ramp. After a while, Socke retreated, and both players put up their expansions simultaneously.
this is a pretty bad position to be in if you don't have blink
While Squirtle went twilight council in order to get blink, Socke built a proxy stargate for void rays, preparing the ultimate anti-colossus combination. Squirtle obligingly went colossus, and Socke built up a force of a few more stalkers and three void rays and attacked at the perfect timing. He killed Squirtle's lone colossus rather easily and won with a superior unit composition.
not even close
After such a grueling tiebreaker round following a full day of casting, the team of Day[9], TLO, and Rotterdam were completely exhausted. But even when bushed, the trio, casing two at a time, were fantastic. Each pair had their strengths: Day[9] was, well, Day[9], and when paired with TLO the cast was full of spot on analysis from two top Starcraft 2 players. Rotterdam was the perfect host, asking just the right questions of his more knowledgeable partners, and he and TLO casted their games like a pair of old friends, even though they had just met. I'm looking forward to more of this casting team in the future.
In the quarterfinals, IdrA lost 2-3 to Squirtle in a close series. Squirtle's use of air compositions seemed to baffle Idra in the three games he lost, but Idra, as always, showed excellent play when playing long macro games. Replays from that match, and from the rest of the playoff, can be downloaded here. Meanwhile, mOOnGLaDe showed once again that MorroW's ZvZ just isn't up to par with his other matchups in a 3-1 victory.
In the semifinals, Game 3 of Moon vs Squirtle was the highlight of the round. Throughout the series, Moon's poor economy management was more than made up for by his flawless decision-making, and that was nowhere more evident than in game 3. Moon made all the right decisions, dropping everywhere with overlords as if he were playing Terran and barely holding several powerful Protoss attacks. The series was back and forth, and the games Moon won are highly recommended for viewing. On the other side of the bracket, Ace outclassed Moonglade 3-0.
In the third place match, there was some sloppy play between Squirtle and Moonglade. When the dust cleared, Squirtle had eked out a victory, 3-2.
Moon and Ace played in the finals. In game 1 on Delta Quadrant, Moon wasn't able to scout and instead prepared for every type of cheese at once, getting two spore crawlers blind in response to a phantom stargate build and forgoing a lair in favor of bunches of lings to defend a phantom 4-gate. Fortunately for Moon, Ace went blink stalker, which mass speedling counters pretty well. Moon won after Ace dragged the game out 5 minutes too long.Game 2 was the infamous "crowd-hack" game, in which Squirtle fast-expanded on Lost Temple and where Moon tried to win with a one base nydus timing. While the nydus was building, a cheer went up from the crowd, and Ace scouted the nydus exit with a probe. Whether the two events were coincidences was the subject of a lot of debate, but Idra chimed in after the event was over, saying that he had analyzed Ace's replays beforehand and that Ace always scouted for nyduses after fast expanding on Lost Temple. So it's likely that Ace would have scouted Moon's all-in without the crowd, but of course there is no way to know for sure. After his all-in failed, Moon was on one base as zerg. Predictably, he lost.
Game 3, on Blistering Sands, featured another all-in by Moon, this time a one base roach bust on the back door. Ace handled it perfectly, saccing his main and getting a stargate. With cannons securing his natural, Ace was free to tear up Moon's roach army and head for Moon's main, where two queens had to fight two void rays and a phoenix. Excellent play by Ace, countering perfectly the most popular zerg strategy on Blistering.
On game 4, Moon responded to Ace's fast expand not with an all-in, but with a double expand. He got a blind evo (which I think more zergs are going to be doing in the future as insurance against air builds like the one Ace did). Moon defended Ace's first attack with good micro, and from there denied Ace's third until a climactic battle in which he crushed the Protoss army by shift-right-clicking both colossi with his corruptors and killing everything else with mass hydra.
The final game was on Xel'Naga Caverns, and had way too much action to be recapped here. Banelings, roaches, hydras, corruptors, immortals, colossi, base trades... it was a fitting end to the tournament. You can and should watch the game here -- jump to the 1:19:00 mark!
Well, that just about covers it. Check out the Liquipedia article at the top of this page for detailed results, and check out the link right under that for VODs of the whole tournament!
Actually Koreans do own white dudes and Moon was 100% right, because these aren't even the top koreans, these are the koreans that were eliminated from code A. I laughed when I saw that IEM didn't think to invite players like MVP, NesTea, or MC.
Edit: However, Koreans do have a better "scheduled" practice agenda. But this was the IEM world finals, if the players didn't practice with their normal practice partners and didn't practice as hard as they possibly could then they not only make IEM look bad by not practicing for their "world finals" but also the non korean scene. If they don't practice as much as a korean sc player for a World finals tournament, then they deserve to get embarrassed.
For some reason this remind me of the 2002 Speed skating 1000 meter final at the Olympics, except the Australian and the American beat the Koreans. I was trying to find a picture but I failed -.-
Also in the Game 2 Moon v Ace report you say Squirtle fast expanded.
On March 14 2011 10:15 Kenpachi wrote: so typical. When have foreigners beaten Koreans as of recently?
Jinro and Huk? ^^
You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is, Korean training dominates foreigner training. Not all foreigners who trained in Korea have been successful (ex. Haypro), meaning individual talent still does play a role. However, the korean regime overall is much stronger than how foreigners train. As far as I'm concerned, because he trains/lives with a Korean pro team, Jinro is korean, not a foreigner.
Typo in the finals section, about the second game: "Game 2 was the infamous "crowd-hack" game, in which Squirtle fast-expanded on Lost Temple and where Moon tried to win with a one base nydus timing. " Should be Ace instead of Squirtle.
*sigh* well there go all my dreams of foreigners being as good as Koreans. If foreigners do well in TSL it would negate IEM results but I'm not feeling optimistic.
On March 14 2011 11:30 red4ce wrote: *sigh* well there go all my dreams of foreigners being as good as Koreans. If foreigners do well in TSL it would negate IEM results but I'm not feeling optimistic.
Not sure if you remember but Jinro is doing quite well in the GSL getting to Ro4 two times in a row!
On March 14 2011 11:30 red4ce wrote: *sigh* well there go all my dreams of foreigners being as good as Koreans. If foreigners do well in TSL it would negate IEM results but I'm not feeling optimistic.
Not sure if you remember but Jinro is doing quite well in the GSL getting to Ro4 two times in a row!
Thanks for the recap motbob!
To be fair, he's also pretty much the SC2 equivalent to Elky. Barring some real changes, we're on the fast track to making that Korean Foreigner divide (although the nature of the game will probably make it more even than it ever was in BW)
ALSO: Moon positively smashed motbob (and a whole host of other people's) expectations of him. I am pleased.
On March 14 2011 10:15 Kenpachi wrote: so typical. When have foreigners beaten Koreans as of recently?
Jinro and Huk? ^^
You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is, Korean training dominates foreigner training. Not all foreigners who trained in Korea have been successful (ex. Haypro), meaning individual talent still does play a role. However, the korean regime overall is much stronger than how foreigners train. As far as I'm concerned, because he trains/lives with a Korean pro team, Jinro is korean, not a foreigner.
There isn't magic starcraft dust in the air over there. Nothing is stopping other foreigners from training just as hard.
On March 14 2011 10:15 Kenpachi wrote: so typical. When have foreigners beaten Koreans as of recently?
Jinro and Huk? ^^
You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is, Korean training dominates foreigner training. Not all foreigners who trained in Korea have been successful (ex. Haypro), meaning individual talent still does play a role. However, the korean regime overall is much stronger than how foreigners train. As far as I'm concerned, because he trains/lives with a Korean pro team, Jinro is korean, not a foreigner.
There isn't magic starcraft dust in the air over there. Nothing is stopping other foreigners from training just as hard.
Nah man, it's just the Starcraft dust. That stuff is EVERYWHERE.
On March 14 2011 10:15 Kenpachi wrote: so typical. When have foreigners beaten Koreans as of recently?
Jinro and Huk? ^^
You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is, Korean training dominates foreigner training. Not all foreigners who trained in Korea have been successful (ex. Haypro), meaning individual talent still does play a role. However, the korean regime overall is much stronger than how foreigners train. As far as I'm concerned, because he trains/lives with a Korean pro team, Jinro is korean, not a foreigner.
There isn't magic starcraft dust in the air over there. Nothing is stopping other foreigners from training just as hard.
There is something stopping foreigners, the culture. Korea is the only place in the world where Starcraft is treated as a professional sport. Pros live, breath, eat, play sc2 in the same house all day everyday. Until foreigners do that, the magic dust will be there.
Dream hack doesn't count for oGsTop/Inca. Wasn't that the tourney where it was all best of 1s, so it was basically a coin toss forever won or lost? I think some random named actionjesus got far because of that?
On March 14 2011 13:09 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: If you're going to change the title on the basis of racial implications, shouldn't you take the video down as well?
I don't see how it's related. We have no control over what someone says in an interview not conducted by us, its rather to de-emphasize a misleading title.
edit: anyway, the issue is resolved below with proper quotations
On March 14 2011 13:23 Teejing wrote: Meh hot_bid going the " political correct" way on us.
lol maybe, but I think stuff like this should just be handled carefully
IMO it's necessary for the progression/reputation of eSports. I didn't expect something like that from TL and I'm glad they changed that to reflect their stance.
On March 14 2011 13:09 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: If you're going to change the title on the basis of racial implications, shouldn't you take the video down as well?
I don't see how it's related. We have no control over what someone says in an interview not conducted by us, its rather to de-emphasize a misleading title.
edit: anyway, the issue is resolved below with proper quotations
Meh, too late to answer But still, it would all break down as to what you have defined as a misleading title. In this case, a person would click the thread just to be welcomed by a youtube video where its title and content would give right away the explanation of the thread's title.Hardly misleading, it's actually a somewhat good advertising of things. However, I haven't been long enough here as a poster to know how you deal with this ^_^
White dudes would be able to keep up with Koreans if they took training as seriously as Koreans do. They keep making up the excuse that it's better to also do other things aside from training, but this is obviously not true... I don't think even being a practice house like IdrA & co intend would really change it up all that much if they keep the same attitude of having free weekends or whatever, hehe. So long as white pro-gamers do things like getting married, etc, etc, they will be behind~
Anyway, IEM was pretty awesome. Glad to see a bunch of Zergs make it up there :D
On March 14 2011 10:15 Kenpachi wrote: so typical. When have foreigners beaten Koreans as of recently?
Jinro and Huk? ^^
You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is, Korean training dominates foreigner training. Not all foreigners who trained in Korea have been successful (ex. Haypro), meaning individual talent still does play a role. However, the korean regime overall is much stronger than how foreigners train. As far as I'm concerned, because he trains/lives with a Korean pro team, Jinro is korean, not a foreigner.
There isn't magic starcraft dust in the air over there. Nothing is stopping other foreigners from training just as hard.
There is something stopping foreigners, the culture. Korea is the only place in the world where Starcraft is treated as a professional sport. Pros live, breath, eat, play sc2 in the same house all day everyday. Until foreigners do that, the magic dust will be there.
Pretty much.
Pro-houses where people live and breath the game are necessary to play it at a truly competitive level.
Anything less, and your only hope is that the game hasn't been developed enough for the people who do live in pro-houses to figure out all the different strategies you can possibly do.
On March 14 2011 14:42 Straught wrote: Maybe I'm wrong, but as much as I would like for fenix to be Mexican (lol no mexican progamers) I think he's Peruvian.
yeah he's peruvian but its easy for people to group him as "mexican" just as americans and europeans are apparently collectively called "white dudes" :p
On March 14 2011 09:48 motbob wrote:Game 2 was the infamous "crowd-hack" game, in which Squirtle fast-expanded on Lost Temple and where Moon tried to win with a one base nydus timing. While the nydus was building, a cheer went up from the crowd, and Ace scouted the nydus exit with a probe.
Did capt. Obvious help you with that title? lol. They do, they have been, and they will
I'm really surprised that Squirtle didn't take on Moon thought. I know his PvZ is crappy, but Moon is not even close to being Squirtle's caliber, with all due respect to WC3.
On March 14 2011 16:10 Reasonable wrote: Did capt. Obvious help you with that title? lol. They do, they have been, and they will
I'm really surprised that Squirtle didn't take on Moon thought. I know his PvZ is crappy, but Moon is not even close to being Squirtle's caliber, with all due respect to WC3.
Well the op was quoting Moon when he made the title. Are you calling Moon captain obvious? I don't know why you would say 'Moon is not even close to being Squirtle's caliber' when Moon beat Squirtle in the semis.
Frankly, this tournament showed how overrated Squirtle is. Ace is the protoss on Startale everybody should have been hyping up. Ace didn't lose a single game to a foreigner, was undefeated until the finals and finished with an overall record of 16-2. Squirtle barely made it out of group stage, lost 11 games to foreigners (6 from foreigners who never played in Korea) and finished with an overall record of 18-16 which is barely over .500.
On March 14 2011 16:10 Reasonable wrote: Did capt. Obvious help you with that title? lol. They do, they have been, and they will
I'm really surprised that Squirtle didn't take on Moon thought. I know his PvZ is crappy, but Moon is not even close to being Squirtle's caliber, with all due respect to WC3.
And you judge Moon's caliber based on what? I love it when people pull out random statements about other people's abilities from their ass without any basis.
On March 14 2011 10:33 Kazzabiss wrote: For some reason this remind me of the 2002 Speed skating 1000 meter final at the Olympics, except the Australian and the American beat the Koreans. I was trying to find a picture but I failed -.-
Also in the Game 2 Moon v Ace report you say Squirtle fast expanded.
You can't argue with the stats. 40-10 is a powerful statement.
Recent tournament results corroborate this: Korean Code A players getting Top 3 at the IEM Championships, getting Top 3 at FXOpen Shatter the Sky, as well as FXOpen Invititational (if you count Select as Korean)...
I guess TSL will be another point in the data. Here's hoping it's closer to Dreamhack than IEM WC.
On March 14 2011 09:54 sur_reaL wrote: wow, epic title LOL. can't wait for TSL considering how well the Koreans did at IEM.
I'm still a bit sad we're gonna have lag problems for pretty much any match . Offline tourney would be so much cooler but not really possible with the korean schedule I guess. Still a great tournament but I hope the lag won't decide the winner in some cases
Why is it that just because they're in a training house that puts them above us? Has a lot to do with the effect of the house as well, but they also spend their WHOLE day gaming.
This just shows how important it is that we use the big western tournaments this year (NASL, mlg, etc) to push us to adopt the Korean training model in the west. Team houses, full-time progamers, etc are key!
i guess its not even korean hype....the top 3 are not even codeS in the GSL its undeniable that koreans are much better but i hope the 'white boys' are pumped for the TSL 3 which i hope there will be many upsets!
On March 14 2011 09:48 motbob wrote: Moon is only half right. Koreans did dominate the rest of the field, going 1-2-3 and overcoming the jet-lag handicap that players like oGsInca and oGsTOP have fallen to in the past when traveling overseas. But it would be more accurate to say that Korean training owns white dudes.
Just because Moon wasn't as accurate as you could be, doesn't mean it is wrong. It's like saying "x>0" is wrong if "x=1" is the case.
Awesome, a cocky, arrogant, smug Asian... So tired of people being cocky about video games/sports, say GG and move on, being cocky is just annoying and pisses people off.
On March 15 2011 02:55 SageKalzi wrote: Awesome, a cocky, arrogant, smug Asian... So tired of people being cocky about video games/sports, say GG and move on, being cocky is just annoying and pisses people off.
Lol how is he being cocky -.- it was obviously said in a jokey way and when there are 3 koreans in a tournament with 29 other foreigners, and the koreans get 1st 2nd and 3rd I'm pretty sure you are allowed to be 'cocky'
On March 15 2011 02:55 SageKalzi wrote: Awesome, a cocky, arrogant, smug Asian... So tired of people being cocky about video games/sports, say GG and move on, being cocky is just annoying and pisses people off.
its a joke cos he is being interviewed by Carmac, who wrote this 2 years ago ; )
Edit: there's quite a few ppl who dont get the joke. You should maybe add Carmacs article as a reference...
On March 14 2011 09:48 motbob wrote: Moon is only half right. Koreans did dominate the rest of the field, going 1-2-3 and overcoming the jet-lag handicap that players like oGsInca and oGsTOP have fallen to in the past when traveling overseas. But it would be more accurate to say that Korean training owns white dudes.
Just because Moon wasn't as accurate as you could be, doesn't mean it is wrong. It's like saying "x>0" is wrong if "x=1" is the case.
The point is driving home the idea that it's nurture, not nature, that makes Korean dominance. They don't have an extra finger or better musculature or something, the nature of the environment just "trains" better players regardless of race.
EDIT:
Patch 1.3 notes: Players born within the national boundaries of South Korea now spawn with 5 workers.
Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
On March 15 2011 02:55 SageKalzi wrote: Awesome, a cocky, arrogant, smug Asian... So tired of people being cocky about video games/sports, say GG and move on, being cocky is just annoying and pisses people off.
Awesome, someone who can't actually read the threads on the subject. Read a little deeper to find why Moon isn't actually being arrogant here.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
Koreans seem to have a much bigger sample size within that nurture dynamic. Plus you have a much more serious gaming population there who has played starcraft for much longer than elsewhere in the world which would raise the general standard of play. Even though there may be racial genes that favor a group or another, there's too many other variables to be accounted for to simply conclude that Koreans own those genes.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
It's vaguely insane to me to suggest that because Idra(a ro8 Code S participant) and Jinro(ro4 twice, once in an Open and once in Code S) are not the best players in Korea, hands-down even with Korean training, you can conclude that Koreans have gaming genes or what the fuck ever. Seriously, are you crazy?
MakaPrime was good in the beta, sucks now. Do Koreans have slumping genes? Fruit Dealer has been playing since the beta, has Korean training, and is straight up worse than Idra. Is he a fake Korean?
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
It's vaguely insane to me to suggest that because Idra(a ro8 Code S participant) and Jinro(ro4 twice, once in an Open and once in Code S) are not the best players in Korea, hands-down even with Korean training, you can conclude that Koreans have gaming genes or what the fuck ever. Seriously, are you crazy?
MakaPrime was good in the beta, sucks now. Do Koreans have slumping genes? Fruit Dealer has been playing since the beta, has Korean training, and is straight up worse than Idra. Is he a fake Korean?
That's ok because higher concepts often seem insane to the average people.
Idra and jinro have not claimed dominance in korea, they've generally had easier routes, they have played SOME good players but not consistently.
Easy qualifier brackets and easy ro64-ro16 brackets skews their results quite a bit.
Btw fruitdealer won the gsl where zerg was in its weakest state.
The gap in skill between players like nestea and mvp are night and day with idra and jinro, because sc2 is rock paper scissors they may be able to take games off of them here and there, but in a bo9 or something they would get murdered.
I mean you can argue about sample sizes and such but sc2 has sold more copies outside of korea than in korea, and the best non korean players still play vs koreans and generally get stomped.
them placing 1-2-3 at a top foreign tourney with some of their players that aren't even considered upper echelon says it all.
If you're arguing about genetics, where are all of the foreigners of Korean descent on various pro-gaming teams? Why don't we see European and American teams dominated by Koreans not living in Korea if they are superior genetically?
Unless you can show that there is a positive correlation regardless of location between being Korean and being good at Starcraft 2, it is easy enough to judge that their skill is more incidental to local environmental factors. The fact that more copies of Starcraft 2 were sold outside of Korea does not account for things like having a team house in the Starcraft "Mecca" of the world.
Also, how many foreigners have we had who have trained in Korea for a considerably long time? Definitely a lot more Koreans than foreigners which makes it much more likely for the absolute best to get acclaim under what can arguably be called ideal Starcraft conditions.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
It's vaguely insane to me to suggest that because Idra(a ro8 Code S participant) and Jinro(ro4 twice, once in an Open and once in Code S) are not the best players in Korea, hands-down even with Korean training, you can conclude that Koreans have gaming genes or what the fuck ever. Seriously, are you crazy?
MakaPrime was good in the beta, sucks now. Do Koreans have slumping genes? Fruit Dealer has been playing since the beta, has Korean training, and is straight up worse than Idra. Is he a fake Korean?
That's ok because higher concepts often seem insane to the average people.
Idra and jinro have not claimed dominance in korea, they've generally had easier routes, they have played SOME good players but not consistently.
Easy qualifier brackets and easy ro64-ro16 brackets skews their results quite a bit.
Btw fruitdealer won the gsl where zerg was in its weakest state.
The gap in skill between players like nestea and mvp are night and day with idra and jinro, because sc2 is rock paper scissors they may be able to take games off of them here and there, but in a bo9 or something they would get murdered.
I mean you can argue about sample sizes and such but sc2 has sold more copies outside of korea than in korea, and the best non korean players still play vs koreans and generally get stomped.
them placing 1-2-3 at a top foreign tourney with some of their players that aren't even considered upper echelon says it all.
Why make such inflammatory arguments backed up with bad logic and bad anecdotal examples? Just enjoy the write-up and the funny title.
On March 15 2011 04:58 CuriousMoose wrote: If you're arguing about genetics, where are all of the foreigners of Korean descent on various pro-gaming teams? Why don't we see European and American teams dominated by Koreans not living in Korea if they are superior genetically?
Unless you can show that there is a positive correlation regardless of location between being Korean and being good at Starcraft 2, it is easy enough to judge that their skill is more incidental to local environmental factors. The fact that more copies of Starcraft 2 were sold outside of Korea does not account for things like having a team house in the Starcraft "Mecca" of the world.
Also, how many foreigners have we had who have trained in Korea for a considerably long time? Definitely a lot more Koreans than foreigners which makes it much more likely for the absolute best to get acclaim under what can arguably be called ideal Starcraft conditions.
This argument is flawed because it is a combination to maximize potential.
You still have to train to maximize your potential, and you have to train the right way.
But everyone has their limits, I can do the exact same training routine as kobe bryant, i'll never be as good as him at basketball.
If you took those koreans living elsewhere and put them in the right environment you would see dramatic improvement. Just like you've seen with the westerners that went to korea, but those westerners still haven't been able to reach the top level. In BW, or in SC2.
Some are very good, but they aren't good enough to dominate a GSL in the way that someone like nestea did.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
It's vaguely insane to me to suggest that because Idra(a ro8 Code S participant) and Jinro(ro4 twice, once in an Open and once in Code S) are not the best players in Korea, hands-down even with Korean training, you can conclude that Koreans have gaming genes or what the fuck ever. Seriously, are you crazy?
MakaPrime was good in the beta, sucks now. Do Koreans have slumping genes? Fruit Dealer has been playing since the beta, has Korean training, and is straight up worse than Idra. Is he a fake Korean?
That's ok because higher concepts often seem insane to the average people.
Idra and jinro have not claimed dominance in korea, they've generally had easier routes, they have played SOME good players but not consistently.
Easy qualifier brackets and easy ro64-ro16 brackets skews their results quite a bit.
Btw fruitdealer won the gsl where zerg was in its weakest state.
The gap in skill between players like nestea and mvp are night and day with idra and jinro, because sc2 is rock paper scissors they may be able to take games off of them here and there, but in a bo9 or something they would get murdered.
I mean you can argue about sample sizes and such but sc2 has sold more copies outside of korea than in korea, and the best non korean players still play vs koreans and generally get stomped.
them placing 1-2-3 at a top foreign tourney with some of their players that aren't even considered upper echelon says it all.
Why make such inflammatory arguments backed up with bad logic and bad anecdotal examples? Just enjoy the write-up and the funny title.
No one here is trying to be inflammatory, but i'd just rather be realistic than concern myself with political correctness.
Different races are well different, whether it be skin tone, vulnerability to certain kinds of diseases, or various other attributes, we must acknowledge these differences do exist, and as these differences exist they give different races varying potential for good or bad things (a disease for example would be a bad thing, while better computational skills might be a good thing)
We are also looking at averages here and not stereotyping that ALL people of a certain race are better at something, we are just talking about on average.
Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese? In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do. It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
This is simply incorrect... koreans are different than chinese people, this is why people who are accustomed to the orient can tell when someone looks korean as opposed to chinese (based on genetic features)
Hell china is such a large geographic region that even chinese are different from chinese in other parts of china.
It would be like saying japanese people are chinese, when their genetic line has been augmented drastically by lots of inbreeding for hundreds of years.
Keep in mind all males can be traced back to a common african ancestor 50k-60k years ago, yet males have varied drastically since then.
This type of naivete is dangerous because you want the world to operate on pure equality in some ways when in reality just look at where you are from. The united states does not treat all foreign people as equals.
So the sentiment that all people are equal and genetics do not factor into the potential for varying things is silly.
Genetics dictate a great deal of who we are as people. Whether it be tall, short, big boned, smart, dumb, etc.
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
i loled at this. If you studied genetics at all, any human group who has been separated for more than 1000 years have huge genetic gab. The reason is simply humans adept quicker than other species because they look for companion that adept faster to a new environment, as to in case of most animals, those who cannot adept to the new environment fast enough dies fast and the adeptors reproduce. Separation time China:Korea 5000 years.
Just because there may not many different aspect in terms of looks (though arguable), does not make them not genetically different. Also considering most of China's population is 'Han' and most of korea is not, I do not see how your assumption could be even remotely close.
That being said, it is unlikely there is a genetic factor that specifically favours a Korean player over a non-korean. Although they did find the very top players' brain functions completely different from a average gamer when visualising units (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw at 14:30), I cannot possibily imagine only Koreans may be born with/aquire this 'ability'.
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese? In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do. It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
This is simply incorrect... koreans are different than chinese people, this is why people who are accustomed to the orient can tell when someone looks korean as opposed to chinese (based on genetic features)
It would be like saying japanese people are chinese, when their genetic line has been augmented drastically by lots of inbreeding for hundreds of years.
Keep in mind all males can be traced back to a common african ancestor 50k-60k years ago, yet males have varied drastically since then.
This type of naivete is dangerous because you want the world to operate on pure equality in some ways when in reality just look at where you are from. The united states does not treat all foreign people as equals.
So the sentiment that all people are equal and genetics do not factor into the potential for varying things is silly.
Genetics dictate a great deal of who we are as people. Whether it be tall, short, big boned, smart, dumb, etc.
Ok, so I agree that my post is incomplete, but I do not want to write an essay while I am studying for finals.
I have found NO evidence of a genetic dissimilarity between Chinese and Koreans (who DO share a common ancestor) that could POSSIBLY account for Koreans somehow "dominating" 2 specific video games. Even if you can prove significant genetic differences, you CANNOT find a link between those genes and Starcraft.
So we come to your issue: 1) you are speculating on 2 HUGE levels. 2) When no one has proven what you are saying, and what you are saying is highly skeptical (I admit this is begging the question), you can't just say "Oh I'm right. Prove me wrong. Foreigners are inferior (we have examples to the contrary)." Science doesn't work like that. 3) Why with no evidence would you choose stand on the side of racism?
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
i loled at this. If you studied genetics at all, any human group who has been separated for more than 1000 years have huge genetic gab. The reason is simply humans adept quicker than other species because they look for companion that adept faster to a new environment, as to in case of most animals, those who cannot adept to the new environment fast enough dies fast and the adeptors reproduce. Separation time China:Korea 5000 years.
Just because there may not many different aspect in terms of looks (though arguable), does not make them not genetically different. Also considering most of China's population is 'Han' and most of korea is not, I do not see how your assumption could be even remotely close.
That being said, it is unlikely there is a genetic factor that specifically favours a Korean player over a non-korean. Although they did find the very top players' brain functions completely different from a average gamer when visualising units (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw at 14:30), I cannot possibily imagine only Koreans may be born with/aquire this 'ability'.
How can you possibly claim that China and Korea have been seperated for 5000 years? Genetics do not operate on political borders. You are right, I am not a genetics major. I am a Chinese history major. Northern Chinese, Manchurians, and Koreans have been constantly intermingling in a significant way until the end of the Qing Dynasty (1900).
Obviously, Chinese is a misleading term. Historically China is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world.
Honestly guys, genes really don't have much to do with this.
I honestly think that it's more culture than genetics and here's why: Korean training ethics are insane. They are also like that with other aspects of study too. When I lived in Korea, EVERY kid went to school from 8am to 3-4pm then to afterschool (a kind of mass tutoring) until 12-4 am. That's just with school work, and mind you this kind of thing starts in elementary. In america, it's mostly happy fun time until maybe junior year in highschool when parents freak out about college apps. Now think about this ethic transfered over to SC. That's all it really is. I'm sure if you brought in a bunch of kids in America, trained them with that kind of ethic, then they'll SOME of them will end up as amazing pro gamers.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
Didn't the majority of Korean pros have the same "nurture" for SC2 and not get to the absolute top either?
What you're saying is "So, there have been like 5 non-Koreans training in optimal conditions and a handful of the hundreds of Koreans in that environment are still better than them, obviously Koreans must be genetically designed to play Starcraft!"
How do you even type that shit without your brain saying "Hey Robert, you're going to look like an idiot if you press the "post" button, quick, close the browser!"?
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
i loled at this. If you studied genetics at all, any human group who has been separated for more than 1000 years have huge genetic gab. The reason is simply humans adept quicker than other species because they look for companion that adept faster to a new environment, as to in case of most animals, those who cannot adept to the new environment fast enough dies fast and the adeptors reproduce. Separation time China:Korea 5000 years.
Just because there may not many different aspect in terms of looks (though arguable), does not make them not genetically different. Also considering most of China's population is 'Han' and most of korea is not, I do not see how your assumption could be even remotely close.
That being said, it is unlikely there is a genetic factor that specifically favours a Korean player over a non-korean. Although they did find the very top players' brain functions completely different from a average gamer when visualising units (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw at 14:30), I cannot possibily imagine only Koreans may be born with/aquire this 'ability'.
How can you possibly claim that China and Korea have been seperated for 5000 years? Genetics do not operate on political borders. You are right, I am not a genetics major. I am a Chinese history major. Northern Chinese, Manchurians, and Koreans have been constantly intermingling in a significant way until the end of the Qing Dynasty (1900).
Obviously, Chinese is a misleading term. Historically China is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world.
China is most definitely an RTS superpower, dominating Warcraft 3 and hovering between Korea and foreigners in Brood War. China has also recently dominated DotA tournaments.
Once Starcraft 2 is officially released there, expect to see lots of up and coming Chinese players.
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
i loled at this. If you studied genetics at all, any human group who has been separated for more than 1000 years have huge genetic gab. The reason is simply humans adept quicker than other species because they look for companion that adept faster to a new environment, as to in case of most animals, those who cannot adept to the new environment fast enough dies fast and the adeptors reproduce. Separation time China:Korea 5000 years.
Just because there may not many different aspect in terms of looks (though arguable), does not make them not genetically different. Also considering most of China's population is 'Han' and most of korea is not, I do not see how your assumption could be even remotely close.
That being said, it is unlikely there is a genetic factor that specifically favours a Korean player over a non-korean. Although they did find the very top players' brain functions completely different from a average gamer when visualising units (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw at 14:30), I cannot possibily imagine only Koreans may be born with/aquire this 'ability'.
How can you possibly claim that China and Korea have been seperated for 5000 years? Genetics do not operate on political borders. You are right, I am not a genetics major. I am a Chinese history major. Northern Chinese, Manchurians, and Koreans have been constantly intermingling in a significant way until the end of the Qing Dynasty (1900).
Obviously, Chinese is a misleading term. Historically China is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world.
but did you read? Han != Koreans, Japanese or other Asians
"the Koreans had the lowest percentage of Austronesian DNA among the East Asians, while the Han Chinese had the most. The Japanese were found to have slightly more Austronesian DNA than the Koreans."
ofc the genetics are different, it doesn't matter if two countries have some access, they separate later and that mix is reduce or faded out eventually. =_=
Still stands, there is no genetic factor that favours 'koreans'. Although looking back at the video, it makes ppl feel hopeless that some ppl are better at SC or gaming than others and there is not much a person can do about it. Very sad indeed.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
It's vaguely insane to me to suggest that because Idra(a ro8 Code S participant) and Jinro(ro4 twice, once in an Open and once in Code S) are not the best players in Korea, hands-down even with Korean training, you can conclude that Koreans have gaming genes or what the fuck ever. Seriously, are you crazy?
MakaPrime was good in the beta, sucks now. Do Koreans have slumping genes? Fruit Dealer has been playing since the beta, has Korean training, and is straight up worse than Idra. Is he a fake Korean?
That's ok because higher concepts often seem insane to the average people.
Idra and jinro have not claimed dominance in korea, they've generally had easier routes, they have played SOME good players but not consistently.
Easy qualifier brackets and easy ro64-ro16 brackets skews their results quite a bit.
Btw fruitdealer won the gsl where zerg was in its weakest state.
The gap in skill between players like nestea and mvp are night and day with idra and jinro, because sc2 is rock paper scissors they may be able to take games off of them here and there, but in a bo9 or something they would get murdered.
I mean you can argue about sample sizes and such but sc2 has sold more copies outside of korea than in korea, and the best non korean players still play vs koreans and generally get stomped.
them placing 1-2-3 at a top foreign tourney with some of their players that aren't even considered upper echelon says it all.
You're an idiot, plain and simple. And talk about burying the lead, yeah, there's a problem with sample sizes.
Not to mention entirely ignoring the point that skills from other games carry over. Yes some Korean pros are new gamers to SC2, but not nearly all of them.
The idea that Koreans are just racially better at games is laughable when you note that their dominance is exclusive to games they practice. If it was racial they could pick up Halo Reach and start winning titles in that if they felt like it.
oh my, why do you bother arguing with people over the internet if genes of all things has something to do with games? It's hard goddamn practice, Flash himself said he doesn't believe in a thing called "prodigy"
some people here are getting too technical for their own good. there's no way of proving that korean genes make you better at video games, since theres always external factors involved. Of course you can clone some starcraft-playing mice and test each gene that way....
I'm sure you're thinking "But but but..." Just stop.. anything is speculation/hypothetical.
From my experience, asians are in general better at video games, but that's where we should stop. If you are going to argue further and bring in science and genetics etc, you are just going to lose the debate like robertdinh did, because there's just no way to prove it.
Let's see who is considered "good" right now amongst foreigners. Most of them or even all have a broodwar or WC3 background. So, what did they do in the past 10 years? They played at home, maybe 4-8 hours avg each day and their skill transfered to sc2.
Now you have the koreans playing 14h a day in a teamhouse for years and their skill transfered to sc2 as well. I think it might come down to the superior mechanics, micro, reaction time etc. that transfers from one game to another.
Wish I didn't skip to the end of this thread... seriously? No one actually thinks Koreans are better at Blizzard games because of biological differences inherent to their race, right? Kinda Hitlerish...
On March 15 2011 07:20 HorstSchlemmer wrote: I think it might come down to the superior mechanics, micro, reaction time etc. that transfers from one game to another.
Add general RTS knowledge to this and I think it's 100% correct. These guys have simply spent more time exploring the depths of this type of RTS than anyone else. It is to be expected that their approach to a similar game will be superior.
The gaming world has never seen the infrastructure that BW had. Teams with dedicated talent acquisition and development strategies focusing solely on beating out the other 9 (used to be 11) teams will take a game to a whole new level.
On March 15 2011 03:53 robertdinh wrote: Didn't idra have the same "nurture" for sc2 ever since beta, and still not get to the absolute top?
Different genetics have different pros and cons, it's "racist" to understand that apparently but the sooner people deal with that reality the better.
Just like average penis sizes, computational skills, sickle cell anemia etc.
Nothing is determined 100% by race alone though, obviously just cause you aren't korean doesn't mean you can't be good at sc2. But there are far more skilled koreans at it than foreigners. Yet the game seems to be much bigger outside of korea. That means the koreans are making more efficient use of their time and are just generally more efficient players. Even the non-hardcore koreans on avg are way better. So practice schedule isn't all of it.
It's vaguely insane to me to suggest that because Idra(a ro8 Code S participant) and Jinro(ro4 twice, once in an Open and once in Code S) are not the best players in Korea, hands-down even with Korean training, you can conclude that Koreans have gaming genes or what the fuck ever. Seriously, are you crazy?
MakaPrime was good in the beta, sucks now. Do Koreans have slumping genes? Fruit Dealer has been playing since the beta, has Korean training, and is straight up worse than Idra. Is he a fake Korean?
That's ok because higher concepts often seem insane to the average people.
Idra and jinro have not claimed dominance in korea, they've generally had easier routes, they have played SOME good players but not consistently.
Easy qualifier brackets and easy ro64-ro16 brackets skews their results quite a bit.
Btw fruitdealer won the gsl where zerg was in its weakest state.
The gap in skill between players like nestea and mvp are night and day with idra and jinro, because sc2 is rock paper scissors they may be able to take games off of them here and there, but in a bo9 or something they would get murdered.
I mean you can argue about sample sizes and such but sc2 has sold more copies outside of korea than in korea, and the best non korean players still play vs koreans and generally get stomped.
them placing 1-2-3 at a top foreign tourney with some of their players that aren't even considered upper echelon says it all.
You're an idiot, plain and simple. And talk about burying the lead, yeah, there's a problem with sample sizes.
Not to mention entirely ignoring the point that skills from other games carry over. Yes some Korean pros are new gamers to SC2, but not nearly all of them.
The idea that Koreans are just racially better at games is laughable when you note that their dominance is exclusive to games they practice. If it was racial they could pick up Halo Reach and start winning titles in that if they felt like it.
You can't just pick up something and be godly at it, that would be like saying all koreans are gaming savants, no, just on average they are better at rts games. Specifically ones that require macro and micro and repetition.
I am sorry this doesn't fit into your IU - marshmallow world, but genetics are not politically correct, they are nature at play, and nature doesn't care about you or how you feel.
On March 15 2011 06:30 MusiK wrote: Honestly guys, genes really don't have much to do with this.
I honestly think that it's more culture than genetics and here's why: Korean training ethics are insane. They are also like that with other aspects of study too. When I lived in Korea, EVERY kid went to school from 8am to 3-4pm then to afterschool (a kind of mass tutoring) until 12-4 am. That's just with school work, and mind you this kind of thing starts in elementary. In america, it's mostly happy fun time until maybe junior year in highschool when parents freak out about college apps. Now think about this ethic transfered over to SC. That's all it really is. I'm sure if you brought in a bunch of kids in America, trained them with that kind of ethic, then they'll SOME of them will end up as amazing pro gamers.
this is true. when i was 9 years old in korea, i to school 8am to 2pm, then i had 3pm to 6pm for hakwon (tutoring).
my sister(+6yrs) and brother(+9yrs) had same but their hakwon ended at 9pm.
so our time studying from elementary is about 10 to 12 hours a day, increasing with grade. and it was 6 days a week.
when i came to the states...it sure was a new experience.
i wonder how much viewing NASL will get. i think NASL viewer number will depend on how well non-Koreans do in TSL and Gom's world championship in seoul. i honestly can say if non-Koreans get totally pwn'd to the point of getting demolish'd, i doubt i will watch NASL too often.
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
i loled at this. If you studied genetics at all, any human group who has been separated for more than 1000 years have huge genetic gab. The reason is simply humans adept quicker than other species because they look for companion that adept faster to a new environment, as to in case of most animals, those who cannot adept to the new environment fast enough dies fast and the adeptors reproduce. Separation time China:Korea 5000 years.
Just because there may not many different aspect in terms of looks (though arguable), does not make them not genetically different. Also considering most of China's population is 'Han' and most of korea is not, I do not see how your assumption could be even remotely close.
That being said, it is unlikely there is a genetic factor that specifically favours a Korean player over a non-korean. Although they did find the very top players' brain functions completely different from a average gamer when visualising units (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw at 14:30), I cannot possibily imagine only Koreans may be born with/aquire this 'ability'.
How can you possibly claim that China and Korea have been seperated for 5000 years? Genetics do not operate on political borders. You are right, I am not a genetics major. I am a Chinese history major. Northern Chinese, Manchurians, and Koreans have been constantly intermingling in a significant way until the end of the Qing Dynasty (1900).
Obviously, Chinese is a misleading term. Historically China is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world.
Stop talking about genetics bro. Its obvious you're ignorant and it just looks bad. Genetically speaking Koreans are closer to Mongols and Japanese people than Chinese and this is proven by looking at DNA, not maps or time lines....
Genetics have nothing to do with gaming superiority unless someone proves Koreans have superior mental processing or hand/eye coordination. Training has something to do with it but I also feel like the Korean gaming culture is more condusive to producing pro gamers. There are pc cafes on every corner with blazing (and i mean blazing) high speed internet access and fast computers at dirt cheap prices. It costs like $5 to spend the entire day playing in a cafe and you can have food ordered right to your computer so you dont even have to move. Not to mention you have easy access to pro teams if you are good enough. Lets not forget you have to be good enough to even make it onto a team dorm for practicing to begin with so you have get real good on your own.
FRACK MY RAGE CANNOT BE CONTAINED ANY LONGER!!!! I am so sick of this. I give props to Jinro for making headway into the GSL, but enough is enough. When are Team Liquid, Idra, White-Ra, Sjow, Moonglade, and Morrow and everybody else gonna finally beast all over these slack jawed faggots! BW/SC2 are white mens games developed by the most uber of uber Californian programmers!!! Koreans couldn't make a good game even if it was called "KimchiCraft". So why should the be the best at playing it? FROM HERE ON OUT NOT ONE STEP BACKWARD UNTIL THE WAR IS WON MEN!!!!! ONWARDS AND UPWARDS UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD OR THE JOB IS DONE!!!!!
On March 15 2011 11:29 Terranosaurus Rex wrote: FRACK MY RAGE CANNOT BE CONTAINED ANY LONGER!!!! I am so sick of this. I give props to Jinro for making headway into the GSL, but enough is enough. When are Team Liquid, Idra, White-Ra, Sjow, Moonglade, and Morrow and everybody else gonna finally beast all over these slack jawed faggots! BW/SC2 are white mens games developed by the most uber of uber Californian programmers!!! Koreans couldn't make a good game even if it was called "KimchiCraft". So why should the be the best at playing it? FROM HERE ON OUT NOT ONE STEP BACKWARD UNTIL THE WAR IS WON MEN!!!!! ONWARDS AND UPWARDS UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD OR THE JOB IS DONE!!!!!
Instead of this we need THIS
User was banned for this post.
First of all, happy birthday. Are you sure you are old enough to be going on the interweb?
On March 15 2011 11:29 Terranosaurus Rex wrote: FRACK MY RAGE CANNOT BE CONTAINED ANY LONGER!!!! I am so sick of this. I give props to Jinro for making headway into the GSL, but enough is enough. When are Team Liquid, Idra, White-Ra, Sjow, Moonglade, and Morrow and everybody else gonna finally beast all over these slack jawed faggots! BW/SC2 are white mens games developed by the most uber of uber Californian programmers!!! Koreans couldn't make a good game even if it was called "KimchiCraft". So why should the be the best at playing it? FROM HERE ON OUT NOT ONE STEP BACKWARD UNTIL THE WAR IS WON MEN!!!!! ONWARDS AND UPWARDS UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD OR THE JOB IS DONE!!!!!
On March 15 2011 05:57 Beef Noodles wrote: Ok, but "racially" Koreans are THE SAME as Chinese. They both shared a common ancestor, and they have not had enough time to generate ANY significant genetic differences. Why aren't progamers half koreans half chinese?
In fact, there are more western players at the "top" level than there are Chinese players. Please try to explain that. You can't say not enough Chinese play the game, because tons of them do.
It is clearly that Koreans take a different approach to "playing" a game. They are on teams that LIVE together, and they've been living together since the end of the beta. It has nothing to do with genetics. It's purely a cultural difference.
i loled at this. If you studied genetics at all, any human group who has been separated for more than 1000 years have huge genetic gab. The reason is simply humans adept quicker than other species because they look for companion that adept faster to a new environment, as to in case of most animals, those who cannot adept to the new environment fast enough dies fast and the adeptors reproduce. Separation time China:Korea 5000 years.
Just because there may not many different aspect in terms of looks (though arguable), does not make them not genetically different. Also considering most of China's population is 'Han' and most of korea is not, I do not see how your assumption could be even remotely close.
That being said, it is unlikely there is a genetic factor that specifically favours a Korean player over a non-korean. Although they did find the very top players' brain functions completely different from a average gamer when visualising units (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw at 14:30), I cannot possibily imagine only Koreans may be born with/aquire this 'ability'.
How can you possibly claim that China and Korea have been seperated for 5000 years? Genetics do not operate on political borders. You are right, I am not a genetics major. I am a Chinese history major. Northern Chinese, Manchurians, and Koreans have been constantly intermingling in a significant way until the end of the Qing Dynasty (1900).
Obviously, Chinese is a misleading term. Historically China is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world.
Stop talking about genetics bro. Its obvious you're ignorant and it just looks bad. Genetically speaking Koreans are closer to Mongols and Japanese people than Chinese and this is proven by looking at DNA, not maps or time lines....
Genetics have nothing to do with gaming superiority unless someone proves Koreans have superior mental processing or hand/eye coordination. Training has something to do with it but I also feel like the Korean gaming culture is more condusive to producing pro gamers. There are pc cafes on every corner with blazing (and i mean blazing) high speed internet access and fast computers at dirt cheap prices. It costs like $5 to spend the entire day playing in a cafe and you can have food ordered right to your computer so you dont even have to move. Not to mention you have easy access to pro teams if you are good enough. Lets not forget you have to be good enough to even make it onto a team dorm for practicing to begin with so you have get real good on your own.
this is true. if you take a look at actual asian history, and not just chinese history, Koreans are more closely related to Mongolians than Chinese. China wasn't always this big. Korea used to be bigger than North and South Korea put in together. Korean borders were stretched out to northern side from North Korea, which are now part of China. You cannot say, because part of past Korean lands are now part of China, that Chinese and Koreans are closely related either.
For the few who might be confused; Carmac is the dude holding the mic.
Why isn't this article by Carmac linked in the original post of this thread? Seems like most people are raging and discussing xenophobic crap over nothing, as in reality, it was just an inside joke between Moon and Carmac. Seriously....wow.
On March 15 2011 04:35 robertdinh wrote: That's ok because higher concepts often seem insane to the average people.
Idra and jinro have not claimed dominance in korea, they've generally had easier routes, they have played SOME good players but not consistently.
Easy qualifier brackets and easy ro64-ro16 brackets skews their results quite a bit.
Btw fruitdealer won the gsl where zerg was in its weakest state.
The gap in skill between players like nestea and mvp are night and day with idra and jinro, because sc2 is rock paper scissors they may be able to take games off of them here and there, but in a bo9 or something they would get murdered.
I mean you can argue about sample sizes and such but sc2 has sold more copies outside of korea than in korea, and the best non korean players still play vs koreans and generally get stomped.
them placing 1-2-3 at a top foreign tourney with some of their players that aren't even considered upper echelon says it all.
I have to say, it seems laughable to me for someone with such a weak argument to imply others are "average."
'Nurture' is, of course, going to be by far the biggest factor in the success of any group of people in any sport, game, academic field, or what have you. Korean dominance in SC and SC2 is easily and absolutely sufficiently explained by a combination of culture and programing conditions. Under current conditions, discussion of genetics is foolish and impossible to verify -- we should use Occam's razor to remove genetic speculation from our theories on Korean dominance for now.
When we have a comparable number of foreigner progamers training in Korea, and they continue to under-perform, we can begin to have a conversation about factors such as genetics.
On March 16 2011 03:05 Cheerio wrote: this is like saying after game "I owned you" when you win. Wish him some bad luck in his career.
this. although I must thank him for getting a chuckle out of me in what otherwise has been a shitty day at work for me lol. Just thought for a quick second I'd love to hear something like that in person from a 5'1 92 pound korean. Then I didn't care anymore, and away we go.
On March 15 2011 19:24 meegrean wrote: koreans should dominate starcraft 2 soon enough, no doubt about it.
Already do mate. GSL is the highest skill pool tournament in the world, no whitey's in the finals yet. 2 foreigners in Code S (that said, one of them has made it to Ro4 twice in a row).
The hilarious thing about all this is that it's Moon of all people saying it. Totally awesome(and accurate) considering Moon is probably the most mannered, modest and down-to-earth guy in eSports ever.
I think Moon meant it in a humorous way, and at the same time, it's OK to be cocky - as long as you have something real to back it up with. He did not display cocky behavior prematurely, way too mannered for that.
But please guys this really don't have anything to do with racial stuff, this was meant more like a friendly punch to the arm more than anything else. I just think it's a case of all that insane practice really paying dividends to the Korean crew.
On March 16 2011 03:05 Cheerio wrote: this is like saying after game "I owned you" when you win. Wish him some bad luck in his career.
this. although I must thank him for getting a chuckle out of me in what otherwise has been a shitty day at work for me lol. Just thought for a quick second I'd love to hear something like that in person from a 5'1 92 pound korean. Then I didn't care anymore, and away we go.
On March 16 2011 03:05 Cheerio wrote: this is like saying after game "I owned you" when you win. Wish him some bad luck in his career.
this. although I must thank him for getting a chuckle out of me in what otherwise has been a shitty day at work for me lol. Just thought for a quick second I'd love to hear something like that in person from a 5'1 92 pound korean. Then I didn't care anymore, and away we go.
On March 17 2011 05:19 D_K_night wrote: I think Moon meant it in a humorous way, and at the same time, it's OK to be cocky - as long as you have something real to back it up with. He did not display cocky behavior prematurely, way too mannered for that.
But please guys this really don't have anything to do with racial stuff, this was meant more like a friendly punch to the arm more than anything else. I just think it's a case of all that insane practice really paying dividends to the Korean crew.
Ya of course, it has nothing to do with race, other then being explicitly about race.....
Of course if a white man said "whites own koreans" that would be racist and evil. Only the white man can be racist. Non-whites are all peaceful and wonderful.
On March 16 2011 03:05 Cheerio wrote: this is like saying after game "I owned you" when you win. Wish him some bad luck in his career.
this. although I must thank him for getting a chuckle out of me in what otherwise has been a shitty day at work for me lol. Just thought for a quick second I'd love to hear something like that in person from a 5'1 92 pound korean. Then I didn't care anymore, and away we go.
You sound like a typical online thug retard.
and moon sounds like a typical racist.
You're an idiot if you think he actually ment it for it to be taken seriously. Koreans and most east asian countries are extremely manner when compared to the states or other countries.
On March 17 2011 05:19 D_K_night wrote: I think Moon meant it in a humorous way, and at the same time, it's OK to be cocky - as long as you have something real to back it up with. He did not display cocky behavior prematurely, way too mannered for that.
But please guys this really don't have anything to do with racial stuff, this was meant more like a friendly punch to the arm more than anything else. I just think it's a case of all that insane practice really paying dividends to the Korean crew.
Ya of course, it has nothing to do with race, other then being explicitly about race.....
Of course if a white man said "whites own koreans" that would be racist and evil. Only the white man can be racist. Non-whites are all peaceful and wonderful.
It's always humorous when its anti-white.
It was a joke.
When i think of racism. It is usually said in a context of actually hating a race and in almost of a threatening way.
sometimes you have to laugh at yourself a little. yknow?
Its pretty clear that "Koreans own white dudes"at Starcraft.
On March 17 2011 05:19 D_K_night wrote: I think Moon meant it in a humorous way, and at the same time, it's OK to be cocky - as long as you have something real to back it up with. He did not display cocky behavior prematurely, way too mannered for that.
But please guys this really don't have anything to do with racial stuff, this was meant more like a friendly punch to the arm more than anything else. I just think it's a case of all that insane practice really paying dividends to the Korean crew.
Ya of course, it has nothing to do with race, other then being explicitly about race.....
Of course if a white man said "whites own koreans" that would be racist and evil. Only the white man can be racist. Non-whites are all peaceful and wonderful.
It's always humorous when its anti-white.
Please read the entire thread and be more informed before making a post like this. Moon was making a joke referring to an article written by Carmac (the guy who was interviewing Moon) word for word: http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/17621-Koreans_own_White_Dudes
On March 15 2011 08:27 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: title reminded me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWolXTdjEuY 1:18 "the asians kick the crap out of everybody at this."
On March 17 2011 05:19 D_K_night wrote: I think Moon meant it in a humorous way, and at the same time, it's OK to be cocky - as long as you have something real to back it up with. He did not display cocky behavior prematurely, way too mannered for that.
But please guys this really don't have anything to do with racial stuff, this was meant more like a friendly punch to the arm more than anything else. I just think it's a case of all that insane practice really paying dividends to the Korean crew.
Ya of course, it has nothing to do with race, other then being explicitly about race.....
Of course if a white man said "whites own koreans" that would be racist and evil. Only the white man can be racist. Non-whites are all peaceful and wonderful.
It's always humorous when its anti-white.
I am sure you aren't one but your post sounds like a typical skin head post. Or if you are .. er then camouflage better.
On March 17 2011 05:19 D_K_night wrote: I think Moon meant it in a humorous way, and at the same time, it's OK to be cocky - as long as you have something real to back it up with. He did not display cocky behavior prematurely, way too mannered for that.
But please guys this really don't have anything to do with racial stuff, this was meant more like a friendly punch to the arm more than anything else. I just think it's a case of all that insane practice really paying dividends to the Korean crew.
Ya of course, it has nothing to do with race, other then being explicitly about race.....
Of course if a white man said "whites own koreans" that would be racist and evil. Only the white man can be racist. Non-whites are all peaceful and wonderful.
It's always humorous when its anti-white.
Please read the entire thread and be more informed before making a post like this. Moon was making a joke referring to an article written by Carmac (the guy who was interviewing Moon) word for word: http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/17621-Koreans_own_White_Dudes
It really doesn't matter what he was referring to. The fact of the matter is there's a double standard. If huk or idra was in 1st and said white guys own koreans what do you think would be happening within the community right now? There would be uproar.
I really don't think this guys racist, it's just puzzling to me why no one cares he said something like that, when a white guy would get absolutely hammered for the same exact scenario.
On March 16 2011 03:05 Cheerio wrote: this is like saying after game "I owned you" when you win. Wish him some bad luck in his career.
this. although I must thank him for getting a chuckle out of me in what otherwise has been a shitty day at work for me lol. Just thought for a quick second I'd love to hear something like that in person from a 5'1 92 pound korean. Then I didn't care anymore, and away we go.
I'm bumping this for a VERY good reason. The video in the OP (which seems to be the only video of this) is gone! I can't find it. Does anyone have a backup??
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/motbob/iem5_header.jpg)
IEM Season V - World Championship![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/pachi/misc/IEMPrize.gif)
Squirtle, 
Moon, ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/motbob/squirtle.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/motbob/position.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/motbob/final.jpg)
.
I suppose you can't really argue with the guy :p
we need THIS 
