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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:25 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote:
Also, you can't at the same time express concern about the welfare of progamers and support the existence of a third league that increases their already heavy workload.
I'm pretty sure the progamers are going to be playing their 11-13 hours a day with or without a 3rd league. And I don't see why they can't choose to focus on only one or two of the leagues, unless they have no choice in the matter, but that'd be the fault of the teams and sponsors, not GOM's existence. Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:08 snowdrift86 wrote:
Why shouldn't they? It's funny how people are constantly bashing KeSPA while feeling entitled to its players. They're sponsors. If they don't think they're getting good value for their money by having their players in some internet-only tournament (hell, the sole initial purpose of GOMTV was to promote the GOM player), then they pull out. Honestly, is it REALLY going to affect OGN and MBCGame THAT MUCH if some of the players are playing in GOM as well? Like, is there going to be a measurable decrease in player skill that will result in a measurable number of fans leaving? Are the OSL, MSL, and Proleague noticeably better now that GOM isn't around? KeSPA doesn't care about e-sports. They care about money.
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote:
You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports.
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damn this is like bison fighting sagat, i just hope the best for BW
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On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote:
You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA?
Impossible, KeSPA is the only vessel through which sponsors can communicate. Think of KeSPA as the pope.
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its quite funny how you said Kespa doesnt care about E-sports and care about the money. its really the other way around
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On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote:
按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想：其实星际也是韩国人的，暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
LoL, this is a funny post.
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I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I am a law student who has been following the SC eSports scene for about 2 years now, and I felt like I could contribute to this discussion.
I want to get away from the moralizing here and try to figure out what the future of E-sports will look like now that Blizzard has entered the scene. At the premise, I want to assert that legally, both organizations have some claim to the SC eSports scene. Blizzard owns the IP rights to the game, but doesn’t currently own the broadcasting rights or the scene itself. KeSPA owns the scene and broadcasting rights, but doesn’t own the game. Blizzard is trying to gain control of the broadcasting rights, realizing that to gain control of the broadcasting rights is to gain control over the scene.
Why can Blizzard gain control of the broadcasting rights? As dybydx noted earlier, every time a game is broadcasted, certain things like character artwork, game sprites, etc, things that only Blizzard has IP rights to, are used without Blizzard’s permission. Now many other things, like stage design, all graphics, player or commentator commentary, doesn’t belong to Blizzard. But that still gives Blizzard room to sue over their portion, and stop KeSPA from broadcasting the portions that contain their game. Of course, to do that would be to kill the entire point of the broadcast, and Blizzard knows this.
In defense of KeSPA, they know this too, and aren’t trying to completely block Blizzard out of the process. They recognize that Blizzard does have some right to be compensated for the use of their game, whether it be a fee for each game played, or a percentage of all profits, ownership of replays or what have you. What KeSPA is not willing to give up is the actual right of broadcasting, because whoever controls the broadcasting rights, controls the scene, and KeSPA wants to remain in control of SC eSports.
So who wins in this stalemate? There is always the possibility that Blizzard works up a deal with KeSPA and allows them to continue to control the broadcasting rights. However, given their recent deal with GOM, that seems unlikely. I would suggest that Blizzard will win this confrontation (rightly or wrongly) for the following reasons:
1) They have GOM.
The fact that another Korean media outlet is willing to play ball with Blizzard sabotages KeSPA’s position. By giving the broadcasting rights to GOM, they are legally asserting that they control those broadcasting rights in the first place. If KeSPA was to challenge Blizzard in court (which I presume they will), they would not only have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights to their past games, but they would also have to prove that Blizzard doesn’t control the IP rights for their games going forward (in order to stop GOM from broadcasting). It is entirely possible that KeSPA will win the first argument (there seems to be president there, though I can’t say I know Korean law well enough to say for certain), but lose the second, allowing GOM to survive as sort of a “shadow KeSPA.”
Which brings me to my second point. By giving GOM not only the rights to broadcast their games, but also to make deals with other broadcasters for their leagues, GOM becomes the new KeSPA. GOM can dictate the rules on how games are to be played, who can sponsor and who can’t, what teams that can participate, etc. as part of the contract for broadcasting rights. There may or may not be a place for KeSPA here (government watchdog?), but given the bad blood between the two in the past, it would seem unlikely that KeSPA would have any real say in how this “shadow KeSPA” would run.
2) They control the future (SC2).
It is entirely possible that Blizzard will lose the SC1 argument and KeSPA will remain in complete control of the scene and broadcasting rights. Unfortunately for KeSPA, that victory will be short-lived. In light of the recent events, I’m sure Blizzard has already included clauses in SC2’s EULA that prevent broadcasting of their games without their permission. Assuming that is the case, Blizzard can give GOM the rights as the sole broadcaster of SC2 and hope that the popularity of the new game will force other sponsors into abandoning KeSPA for the new GOM league.
What would prevent KeSPA from simply starting their own SC2 league? Battle Net 2.0. Since there is no LAN play in SC2, all games must be played on Blizzard’s servers. This gives Blizzard the opportunity to shut down any account that is being used in an illegal broadcast. KeSPA would never be allowed to broadcast any of their games.
In conclusion, Blizzard is the most likely controller of the future of Korean SC eSports. While I promised that would not moralize on who is right or wrong in this matter, I will say this. I do not think Blizzard’s actions will be the end of eSports. In America alone, nearly every national league has a private company that controls the broadcasting rights to the sport (NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.). Blizzard is trying to establish their own kind of organization through their partnership with GOM. While the eSports of the future might have a very different face on it that the eSports of now, there will still likely be eSports.
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On June 01 2010 02:35 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote:
按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想：其实星际也是韩国人的，暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的 LoL, this is a funny post.
Please translate for the rest of us. These forums are supposed to be english only anyway.
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If we leave this to Blizzard then SCBW in Korea is dead, period.
They just want to get SC2 out there because that's what's in their best interest.
They don't give a shit about SCBW fans because we're a small minority of the people who're going to be looking into SC2.
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Thanks for the post Drunken Argument.
I think that star leagues or something similar will start up right away. There are already plenty of good starcraft 2 players in Korea, and money from blizzard and GOM partners to sponsor them.
Pro-teams and pro-league will probably take alot longer to pop up again, if at all. Should be interesting.
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On June 01 2010 02:46 tobi9999 wrote:
If we leave this to Blizzard then SCBW in Korea is dead, period.
They just want to get SC2 out there because that's what's in their best interest.
They don't give a shit about SCBW fans because we're a small minority of the people who're going to be looking into SC2.
Well duh, that part is obvious. Of course bw is dead if blizzard is in control.. They have a new game to sell..
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On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote:
You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA?
The same way they do now, and then the scene grew, a variety of sponsors started working out a deal on how to get exposure _together_ by sponsoring teams, paying players salaries and not just tournament winnings etc. Thus kespa was formed.
I am referencing the huge essay boonbag wrote in the kespa vs blizzard thread in the star2 forum btw.
You also in your posts claim that kespa is a money making machine while the OP of this very thread makes it quite clear that they are a non profit organization. Supposedly paid for so that the companies backing it get their names associated with something cool.
How you think that blizzard and gom taking money _out_ of the system could _ever_ be a good thing is beyond me, you want KT SKT etc to pay gom for the right of paying for a starcraft scene?
The humanitarian argument is valid, but it can also be applied to ballet, gymnasitics and tons of other niche sports which require inhumanly hard traing from a very young age to even have a shot at getting anywhere.
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On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:28 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:24 iounas wrote:
You mean improved by getting sponsors who pay everything or magically improved by will power.. How do you think OnGameNet got sponsors for its Starleagues before KeSPA? A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports.
From what I've understood KeSPA was established in 1999, but under a different name. When exactly did they take their place as Korea's esport association? I'm quite tired of the argument 'esport was fine before KeSPA' when it seems they've been there since months after the release, I'd like some facts.
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United States63 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote:
Today, I see KeSPA as nothing more than a selfish money-making entity that supports e-sports only so far as it earns KeSPA more money.
That's hardly fair, is it? Replace every instance of Kespa with Blizzard and it fits just as well.
On June 01 2010 02:10 Bill307 wrote:
The thing is, anyone can do that. If Blizzard ends up doing the same selfish thing, then maybe they'll be as bad as KeSPA, but they won't be worse.
I don't think you're looking at both sides rationally. You essentially just said "Maybe Blizzard will be just as bad as Kespa, but at least it won't be Kespa in charge". In other words, you'd prefer it if Blizzard is at the helm even if the status quo was to be maintained. Not only is that a pretty biased viewpoint, you have yet to back up your statement with solid arguments.
You seem to place too much faith in Blizzard without ever addressing the question of "why". Show me how Blizzard will devise this mystical solution to all the problems that plague eSports. Show me how there is ANY sort of guarantee that the situation wouldn't be worse with Blizzard left in charge.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports.
Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more.
If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me.
So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either.
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On June 01 2010 02:47 keV. wrote:
Thanks for the post Drunken Argument.
I think that star leagues or something similar will start up right away. There are already plenty of good starcraft 2 players in Korea, and money from blizzard and GOM partners to sponsor them.
Pro-teams and pro-league will probably take alot longer to pop up again, if at all. Should be interesting.
That seems to make the most sense. GOM will be able to survive for a while only on Blizzard's sponsorship. This would allow GOM to get a few events under its belt and ride the wave of interest SC2's release will create for them. Once winners are produced and popularized, and if none of the other KeSPA sponsored teams defect by that point, GOM can try to create their own pro-teams around those players for a GOM-sponsored Proleauge. If that becomes the case, I think you'll start to see some SCBW players migrate over to the new teams, because that's where the money will be.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either.
They're the SPONSORS.
No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. That's why saying that they're making a profit when this is mainly an advertisement venture is a bit silly.
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On June 01 2010 02:16 sunsun126 wrote:
按照韩国人的习惯 清明节是他们的 诗仙李白是他们的 孙中山先生是他们的
于是.......
我大胆猜想：其实星际也是韩国人的，暴雪公司也是属于韩国人的
LOL!
dude u need to write in english, everyone that doesn't read Chinese is missing out on this.
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On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene.
Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 03:01 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. Explain to me again why sponsors are impossible without KeSPA. If there is money to be made, then sponsors will bite. KeSPA is a middle man.
They ARE the sponsors. Good God, there isn't any other way for me to say it. KeSPA = Samsung, SK, KT, STX, etc. + OGN and MBC.
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Bill i don't think you're wrong in criticizing KeSPa for it's bad ruling decisions & various stands but you make it sound like KeSPa is this "all over everything" organisation that holds all the teams and players hostage and made them sign this soulsucking deal for eternity.
KeSPa's job as an organisation is to form official standards and be in charge of the whole licensing system. They have their hands in various other matters but ultimately it is the sponsors that have all the leverage. In my view, a perfect association should be composed of team owners, ex players, tournament hosters, broadcasters and YES to some degree the game designers. A piece of everyone involved. Plus where is all the money coming from? Rookie drafts? Come on.
Man listen, do you really think big teams like SKT1 pulled out of GOM because they are afraid of KeSPa giving them the banhammer? Don't you think it maybe has something to do with the fact that for more than half a decade, the game creator never gave much of a fuck about the tournaments, the players, the broadcasters or the fans and just SO HAPPENS to join the e-sports thing when they are about to announce and later on release a new game? Isn't is oh so convenient for Blizzard to just join a more or less stable environment and grab ALL, not some, ALL the rights over everything there is and specifically design their product to hold that position? That to me is an insult to all the people involved and first and foremost an insult to the sponsors.
For all i know everything is still here. There are lots of games casted, we still see price money and sponsors are still pumping cash into an industry that has no idea were it is going. There never was a guarantee for Broodwar. We still see sponsorships given out from tournament to tournament.
Look once again, i don't think you're wrong. I'm just not alright with the fact that everything goes to Blizzard. That's not the way a sport should be run & build up.
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EPT
