EPTAlso, flash is really young. When flash turns *insert jaedongs age here* he will probably have more golds and finals appearance than Nada. I just hope blizzard gtfo e-sports.
[OSL] Korean Air Starleague Final - Page 4
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
Also, flash is really young. When flash turns *insert jaedongs age here* he will probably have more golds and finals appearance than Nada. I just hope blizzard gtfo e-sports. | ||
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Nionim
Australia45 Posts
motherfucker | ||
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
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rockslave
Brazil318 Posts
edit: Everyone's saying 13cc yadayada... Did you guys watch the MSL finals? =P. | ||
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Zamkis
Canada114 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
Thanks for the coverage though guys. I really appreciate you time and effort you put into this. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On May 30 2010 07:31 disciple wrote: + Show Spoiler + No. This OSL was EffOrt very first decent performance in a StarLeague, wheres Casy had a good run in the OSL even before his winning season. EffOrt is up there with Mind - both had a difficult path to the finals, both denied bonjwa candidates. Its up to EffOrt to prove his "legacy" you are talking about. For now he is just a really good player, who after seasons of sucking in the individual leagues, finally backed up his PL performance with a badge on his first good run. + Show Spoiler + I think Mind, while once good has had his day. He isn't even the best terran on his team anymore. Midas fans would say he isn't even the 2nd best  . Effort has been amazing for a long continuous period. I wasn't following the scene when Mind was stronger, but was he ever as good as Effort in pl?? I always got a sense he was more on par with Best and Jangbi, good but never the best of his race nor dominant the way Effort was in 2009 with his sick win-rate.On May 30 2010 07:47 disciple wrote: + Show Spoiler + Speaking of EffOrt's legacy at this point is rediculous. Its like comparing a talented and young poker player, who just won his first bracelet, with Phil Helmuth. We all know that the second bracelet is the hardest to win. + Show Spoiler + Also, Phil Hellmuth spends a lot of time promoting himself, but c'mon. You don't even need a bracelet to be better than him. Everyone who is serious about poker including the tv pro's agree a "young rookie" like Phil Galfond or Tom Dwan is better than Phil. Phil had a lot of success when WSOP fields were tiny compared to today. He also enters about two to three times the number of events as someone like Doyle or even Ivey. So only Helmuth believes the fantasy that he is the greatest NLH player, man, he isn't even the greatest tournament player .On May 30 2010 08:43 disciple wrote: + Show Spoiler + Mocking Casy about his rubbish PvT is like making fun of J'Lo's huge ass - at some point it just becomes a defining feature, besides his obvious qualities which you've pointed out- his great TvZ and incredible mnm control Poor J'Lo. I think she has a great ass. Anyone who has seen U-Turn speak up! On May 30 2010 09:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: + Show Spoiler + Haha wow, this article is trying way too hard to posit Effort as amazing. He deserved the win but the whole ground breaking latter section is pretty laughable. + Show Spoiler + Agreed. I'm a big effort fan, have been since he debuted. But he isn't close to JD atm. Nor is Calm or Zero. All he's done is restore himself to his former position of (admittedly) greatness. And one could say if he continues he will be a rival to Jaedong. But the logic that Effort beats Flash who beats JD means Effort >= JD is silly. On May 30 2010 12:49 J1.au wrote: + Show Spoiler + Remember when Savior won dual finals? Oh that's right, it never happened. I guess he wasn't a bonjwa. Lol so so true. On May 30 2010 10:49 Von wrote: + Show Spoiler + Somebody has to say it: I'm a Flash fan, seems like a good kid from what I can see. But what player of his caliber goes 13 CC in the final match of the OSL championship on a two player map. It is not sacrilege to suggest the possibility that - with the understanding that the future of Korean SC and Kespa now in doubt, and the possibility of the country going to war, the kid decided to follow his friends and fix the finals for a hefty sum. Although nobody wants to entertain this, he might be thinking about his future and the future of his family and decided to take the cash. 13 CC? C'mon ... + Show Spoiler + You mean the same build on the same map that he beat JD in game 3 of the MSL finals? Yeah must have been fixed. Lol. EDIT: Spoilered more of my posts so they don't take up an entire page. Sorry for length, just didn't want to double or triple post  | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I dont like him that much but you'll have a hard time saying he's not the best no limit hold em tournament player in the world. The pros make fun of him, that's because he's not that good at other games and they like to say that he's not very good at cash games. But when it's about NL Hold em tournaments lots of pros will, when theyre actually serious, name him as the best. Just ask Doyle Brunson. You dont get 11 bracelets if youre not pretty fucking good Also you act as if his last success was ages ago... his 11th bracelet is a pretty damn short time ago. | ||
KwarK
United States43770 Posts
On May 30 2010 15:05 InTheFade wrote: I didn't notice Kwark's "morally it should have been a loss" line until now. That's just fucking stupid lol Did you bother to read why I said that? Effort's build was an ill thought out desperate allin that would never break Flash's natural. No good player would ever try and beat another good player with that build. As far as I can tell he just cracked under the pressure and tried a hail mary when he should have known better. If your build only works when your opponent makes a specific mistake that happens 1% of the time then your build doesn't work. If you look at the EV Effort almost never wins game 3, quit being results orientated. For those of you who play poker, Effort's the guy who shoved a flush with a gutshot straightflush draw on the turn on a double paired board against a faceup full house and hit his one out. It was a bad play and what makes it worse is that he knew it was a bad play. He was just tilting and got lucky. | ||
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Smu
Serbia164 Posts
I do feel bad that Flash didn't get both titles as he did play that well this season, but really, Effort is an amazing player, and did what he had to do to take the games. It's not his fault he couldn't look good while doing it, it's Flash that set up the ground for the lousy losses. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On May 30 2010 22:57 KwarK wrote: Did you bother to read why I said that? Effort's build was an ill thought out desperate allin that would never break Flash's natural. No good player would ever try and beat another good player with that build. As far as I can tell he just cracked under the pressure and tried a hail mary when he should have known better. If your build only works when your opponent makes a specific mistake that happens 1% of the time then your build doesn't work. If you look at the EV Effort almost never wins game 3, quit being results orientated. For those of you who play poker, Effort's the guy who shoved a flush with a gutshot straightflush draw on the turn on a double paired board against a faceup full house and hit his one out. It was a bad play and what makes it worse is that he knew it was a bad play. He was just tilting and got lucky. I might be mistaken but I dont think it's that incredibly rare that people push out really early to punish Zerg before the 2 hatch mutas pop,at least I'd think more than 1%. Then again what do I know about sc. Either way I dont think it's about that, but about your wording, using "morals" as an argument is kinda weird. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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InTheFade
United States1721 Posts
Here's an example of epic "immorality:" | ||
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KwarK
United States43770 Posts
On May 31 2010 02:09 InTheFade wrote: The OSL is not a tournament of ethics! If you're implying that Flash "blew it," that's not really an argument of morality. Did Effort get lucky catching all those rines like that? Was it really luck? That game was clean. Does Effort get any credit for anything he does? If you want to suggest that Effort knew Flash was going to send out a small group of mnm with his medics slightly behind his marines because he didn't group them before sending them then please give your reasons. But he had to be extremely certain to risk such a bad build that would only work if Flash did that. Either something happened that left Effort 99% sure Flash would accidentally let his medics lag behind, and happened several minutes beforehand to give him time to set it up, or he just got lucky. I think the latter is rather more likely. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 30 2010 22:57 KwarK wrote: Did you bother to read why I said that? Effort's build was an ill thought out desperate allin that would never break Flash's natural. No good player would ever try and beat another good player with that build. As far as I can tell he just cracked under the pressure and tried a hail mary when he should have known better. If your build only works when your opponent makes a specific mistake that happens 1% of the time then your build doesn't work. If you look at the EV Effort almost never wins game 3, quit being results orientated. For those of you who play poker, Effort's the guy who shoved a flush with a gutshot straightflush draw on the turn on a double paired board against a faceup full house and hit his one out. It was a bad play and what makes it worse is that he knew it was a bad play. He was just tilting and got lucky. He moves around with seven lings trying to snipe an scv or two, and slip zerglings into the main (EffOrt always wants to split up his zerglings and harass). Meanwhile, he's building extra lings and hiding them just outside Flash's natural. He's also teching to a lair off of two hatch, with very little drone saturation. His mutalisks will have to do damage. EffOrt then loses four lings, and pulls back. It's completely reasonable for terran to move out and pressure before mutalisks at this point. He does not group his army first however, and moves out with his flank clearly exposed to EffOrt. I think we agree up until there. But a few thoughts as to what happened and what was going to happen from then on... - Did Flash know that EffOrt was on two hatch? He might have suspected it, and it's reasonable to believe that he assumed it, but he didn't know for sure. His scv was chased out of the natural by zerglings, and conceivably EffOrt could've had a drone right behind that to plant the hatchery. - Did Flash know that EffOrt was going nearly all-in ling/muta? He clearly did not. He didn't see EffOrt's extra zerglings, and he didn't get a good enough look at EffOrt's drone saturation. When his scv is at the 9 o'clock expansion, it sees a drone popping. What this goes to show, I think, is that there was a lot more deception in EffOrt's build than you're willing to give it credit for. EffOrt's build was indeed about blitzing Flash with mutalisks, and getting some harass done with his zerglings. But his decision to hide his second set of zerglings was clearly because he intended to kill Flash's eminent push with them, possibly in conjunction with mutalisks if Flash took too long to push out. Furthermore, EffOrt's decision to move his zerglings where he does the moment he sees Flash's push coming out is an indication that he intended to either backstab Flash's base, or do what he did, which was take advantage of a positional advantage. Point being, I don't think a desperate all-in would've been quite so subtle. | ||
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SynC[gm]
United States3127 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
Link @treehugger I think it was very clear it was a 2 hatch because of the gas timing. But I still find his 2nd hatch placement super interesting, maybe it was some sort of message like "this is gonna be useful in late game" while in reality he wanted to end the game early? I dunno, I still dont get why he didnt build it at his natural. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Nice article overall. GJ However can't really agree with everything said in "The post Korean Air-Hana Daetoo world". Leessang domination severe blow-> they're in like almost every final these days. And flash bonjwa "rumor" being dead -> Hey he only made 4 finals out of four possible. Lots of people has done that before ye... No bonjwa did this and this is what kills the bonjwamode for him? then you can just say there have never been any bonjwas. If you're going to claim he's not bonjwa atleast explain it with that it's because Jaedong has also been dominating for a long time or that Flash's time of domination hasn't been long enough. Explaining it with "hey he lost a final" is rubbish. | ||
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