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On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2009 23:17 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 06 2009 23:05 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote:
This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls.
Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ.
Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest.
Of course these 'living legendsof fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT.
As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group.
Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential.
I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke. It seems to me that basing skill level on TV game appearances is only about a million percent better than basing them off of ICCUP games when you don't even know for sure if the players played all the games on that account or if multiple players used them. Moreover people actually practise and play their best for TV games unlike ICCUP where they might try new stuff out or just practise wierd builds. Much of your post seems to be refuting the statements that some of these players are bad. Yuo are of course right in that they aren't. All the winners of the groups ARE good starcraft players. But what the OP says isn't that they are bad in general, just that they are bad in comparison to the scene or other top players. You have to learn to read between the lines if you're gonna read TL analysis. Believe me, i know for sure who played on what account. And i've watched replays not just pure ICCup statistics. The OP statements about some players reflect a generalized opinion of tl.net community. It has nothing to do with comparison, they are considered bad in general. Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill. An all knowing guy like you wouldn't have missed that koreans mostly share their iccup accounts would you?I'm saying clearly how stupid it is to base skill off of your own guesswork about players you don't even have 100% proof is really them. Stop thinking you know something that the rest of us doesn't because you don't. Basing pure skill on TV appearances only is obviously not 100% accurate but it's one hell of a lot better than your methods which doesn't even guarantee that your observations are from the right player. Even if you would know a players iccup account how many replays have you actually watched of his? 50+? I don't think so. And please don't use "Trust me I know I'm right" as an argument again unless you want to be ripped apart by 100 nerds again. Why would I trust someone I don't know and never heard of?
I think you should check the 'Who is who on ICCup Season X' thread, you will be shocked. And you will be shocked to know that i have about 4000 replays of pros from ICCup.
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I actually agree with Romad here. Romad is very well-known for being able to determine any progamer's akas purely from replay hotkeys. I see no reason to doubt that he has a bit more knowledge about skills of players as people send him pro replays very often on the condition that he won't release them.
It is true that a player could be considered lacking in skill under high pressure situations when they would not otherwise, but whether or not we are using this as the criteria for judging their total skill at starcraft is the question being debated.
A question for Romad - who would you consider the best off-line player from each race? (Or who has the greatest difference in skill between their skill in tv games and their skill in non-televised games). I think Romad could probably state who the best amateurs are as well, fairly reliably.
Violet failing the OSL prelims wasn't that surprising to me, he strikes me as a player who would prefer to focus on PL and the MSL which he is already in. Something people don't seem to have noticed much is that Violet is very finnicky about maps - on Neo Medusa he has the best record of any toss, even better than Bisu iirc, but on HBR he doesn't do as well and on outsider he just sort of dies. This is supposed to be a characteristic of protoss players in general, though, based upon January's comments concerning why she liked Stork as a player (he has no opinion about maps). The stx master's cup Violet did very poorly until he played on the 2 maps he does well.
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Reading through this and remembering free lost his group clicked in my head that I couldn't recall ever having seen free in an OSL. Looking back through his leagues played list in TLPD, I couldn't find one in there either. Did I miss something, or has free seriously never qualified for an OSL? It'd be kind of crazy to think of someone who's been around and successful for as long as free has been as a royal road candidate, if he were to qualify.
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On October 07 2009 04:58 (paladin)roMAD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 23:17 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 06 2009 23:05 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote:
This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls.
Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ.
Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest.
Of course these 'living legendsof fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT.
As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group.
Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential.
I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke. It seems to me that basing skill level on TV game appearances is only about a million percent better than basing them off of ICCUP games when you don't even know for sure if the players played all the games on that account or if multiple players used them. Moreover people actually practise and play their best for TV games unlike ICCUP where they might try new stuff out or just practise wierd builds. Much of your post seems to be refuting the statements that some of these players are bad. Yuo are of course right in that they aren't. All the winners of the groups ARE good starcraft players. But what the OP says isn't that they are bad in general, just that they are bad in comparison to the scene or other top players. You have to learn to read between the lines if you're gonna read TL analysis. Believe me, i know for sure who played on what account. And i've watched replays not just pure ICCup statistics. The OP statements about some players reflect a generalized opinion of tl.net community. It has nothing to do with comparison, they are considered bad in general. Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill. An all knowing guy like you wouldn't have missed that koreans mostly share their iccup accounts would you?I'm saying clearly how stupid it is to base skill off of your own guesswork about players you don't even have 100% proof is really them. Stop thinking you know something that the rest of us doesn't because you don't. Basing pure skill on TV appearances only is obviously not 100% accurate but it's one hell of a lot better than your methods which doesn't even guarantee that your observations are from the right player. Even if you would know a players iccup account how many replays have you actually watched of his? 50+? I don't think so. And please don't use "Trust me I know I'm right" as an argument again unless you want to be ripped apart by 100 nerds again. Why would I trust someone I don't know and never heard of? I think you should check the 'Who is who on ICCup Season X' thread, you will be shocked. And you will be shocked to know that i have about 3000 replays of pros from ICCup.
I'm saying that you don't get mass replays of players training. Because the teams don't allow sending them out. I know you're the one who did the determining and stuff but why would the pro teams break their rules and funnel mass replays to a foreigner? I'm not sure here but my guess is that you get replays that leaked onto korean replay sites yeah? Because the players in question found out who a certain pro was and uploaded it. But again that doesn't mean you can determine the true skill of a player especially not how they will perform in major leagues.
I'm saying that unless you have 50-100 replays of every player you can't determine their skill accurately. Not every game played on ICCUP is a serious one and who are you to determine for what purpose each of the players had with their game. There can be multiple reasons for playing differently than normally even on iccup.
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On October 07 2009 05:04 Macavenger wrote:
Reading through this and remembering free lost his group clicked in my head that I couldn't recall ever having seen free in an OSL. Looking back through his leagues played list in TLPD, I couldn't find one in there either. Did I miss something, or has free seriously never qualified for an OSL? It'd be kind of crazy to think of someone who's been around and successful for as long as free has been as a royal road candidate, if he were to qualify.
You're right. That's really strange, I wonder if it's a conscious choice on his part. I don't think it is, especially as he isn't in the MSL this year, I don't think. (Unless he is seeded?)
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On October 07 2009 05:09 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 04:58 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 23:17 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 06 2009 23:05 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote:
This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls.
Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ.
Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest.
Of course these 'living legendsof fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT.
As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group.
Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential.
I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke. It seems to me that basing skill level on TV game appearances is only about a million percent better than basing them off of ICCUP games when you don't even know for sure if the players played all the games on that account or if multiple players used them. Moreover people actually practise and play their best for TV games unlike ICCUP where they might try new stuff out or just practise wierd builds. Much of your post seems to be refuting the statements that some of these players are bad. Yuo are of course right in that they aren't. All the winners of the groups ARE good starcraft players. But what the OP says isn't that they are bad in general, just that they are bad in comparison to the scene or other top players. You have to learn to read between the lines if you're gonna read TL analysis. Believe me, i know for sure who played on what account. And i've watched replays not just pure ICCup statistics. The OP statements about some players reflect a generalized opinion of tl.net community. It has nothing to do with comparison, they are considered bad in general. Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill. An all knowing guy like you wouldn't have missed that koreans mostly share their iccup accounts would you?I'm saying clearly how stupid it is to base skill off of your own guesswork about players you don't even have 100% proof is really them. Stop thinking you know something that the rest of us doesn't because you don't. Basing pure skill on TV appearances only is obviously not 100% accurate but it's one hell of a lot better than your methods which doesn't even guarantee that your observations are from the right player. Even if you would know a players iccup account how many replays have you actually watched of his? 50+? I don't think so. And please don't use "Trust me I know I'm right" as an argument again unless you want to be ripped apart by 100 nerds again. Why would I trust someone I don't know and never heard of? I think you should check the 'Who is who on ICCup Season X' thread, you will be shocked. And you will be shocked to know that i have about 3000 replays of pros from ICCup. I'm saying that you don't get mass replays of players training. Because the teams don't allow sending them out. I know you're the one who did the determining and stuff but why would the pro teams break their rules and funnel mass replays to a foreigner? I'm not sure here but my guess is that you get replays that leaked onto korean replay sites yeah? Because the players in question found out who a certain pro was and uploaded it. But again that doesn't mean you can determine the true skill of a player especially not how they will perform in major leagues. I'm saying that unless you have 50-100 replays of every player you can't determine their skill accurately. Not every game played on ICCUP is a serious one and who are you to determine for what purpose each of the players had with their game. There can be multiple reasons for playing differently than normally even on iccup.
Progamers treat ICCup as another way to practice. Their inteam practice is almost the same as practice on ICCup, except some cases. And i do have their practice replays, although not that many.
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On October 07 2009 04:53 Kreedit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:
Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill.
What? He got a frigging unique name tag ofc hes not a 'random russian TL user'
Maybe you missed my point. I don't care if an admin or part of the crew and thinks he knows the exact skill of a player. I won't quote him on it unless he has some information to back that up. Iccup games are not proof of someones skill.
If he was someone living with or observing players in a team first person or a coach or palyer on that team then sure I would say he knows the true skill of a player. Even if Romad would have 100+ replays of every player. How do you expect him to have enough game knowledge to understand all their strenghts and weaknesses. This is something that top foreigners even have a hard time with cross race atleast.
I respect Romads dedication to the community for using his observations and time to spot these players. However when you're seeing Shuttle own some A ranked amateur what exactly does that tell you about his performance in an OSL vs top notch oponents?
I'm merely saying that you're grabbing very unreliable info and comparing it to situations are are completely different. The level of play and pressure in top TV games is so high.
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Another thing worth considering is that in practice games you're never trying your hardest. You're most likely practicing a specific build, concentrating on a specific flaw in your play, trying out new strategies, practicing a specific style, and so on. It's very draining mentally to play at your best, and you don't really do that anywhere but the serious games. In my opinion, the players' performance in practice is all nice and good, but completely worthless if you can't prove yourself when it matters.
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On October 07 2009 05:19 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 04:53 Kreedit wrote:On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:
Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill.
What? He got a frigging unique name tag ofc hes not a 'random russian TL user' Maybe you missed my point. I don't care if an admin or part of the crew and thinks he knows the exact skill of a player. I won't quote him on it unless he has some information to back that up. Iccup games are not proof of someones skill. If he was someone living with or observing players in a team first person or a coach or palyer on that team then sure I would say he knows the true skill of a player. Even if Romad would have 100+ replays of every player. How do you expect him to have enough game knowledge to understand all their strenghts and weaknesses. This is something that top foreigners even have a hard time with cross race atleast. I respect Romads dedication to the community for using his observations and time to spot these players. However when you're seeing Shuttle own some A ranked amateur what exactly does that tell you about his performance in an OSL vs top notch oponents? I'm merely saying that you're grabbing very unreliable info and comparing it to situations are are completely different. The level of play and pressure in top TV games is so high.
I like how you all tell about OSL and pressure in TV games when we are talking about offline prelims here. If your point is about how the bad players qualify and fail miserably in the first rounds, then you should read my post above. Shuttle went 2-0 against Flash on Destination. He went 3-0 against BaBy on Heartbreak and Outsider. He loses to Reality 0-3, who defeats Free 2:0 in the prelims. Few weeks ago Shuttle defeated Fantasy in a TV game on Destination. These results and replays themselves tell me who is capable of what.
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On October 07 2009 05:31 Shikyo wrote:
Another thing worth considering is that in practice games you're never trying your hardest. You're most likely practicing a specific build, concentrating on a specific flaw in your play, trying out new strategies, practicing a specific style, and so on. It's very draining mentally to play at your best, and you don't really do that anywhere but the serious games. In my opinion, the players' performance in practice is all nice and good, but completely worthless if you can't prove yourself when it matters.
So, does it mean that FrOzean and Jaehoon proved it? Or those prelims didn't matter much? This is the difference between non-broadcasted, thus pressure-free, and broadcasted games.
On October 07 2009 05:00 Nevuk wrote:
A question for Romad - who would you consider the best off-line player from each race? (Or who has the greatest difference in skill between their skill in tv games and their skill in non-televised games). I think Romad could probably state who the best amateurs are as well, fairly reliably.
I think FrOzen has the greatest difference in skill between tv games and non-televised matches. As for best off-line player, it's quite a difficult question to answer, they are all good in practice. 
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 07 2009 05:09 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 04:58 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 23:17 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 06 2009 23:05 StarBrift wrote:On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote:
This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls.
Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ.
Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest.
Of course these 'living legendsof fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT.
As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group.
Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential.
I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke. It seems to me that basing skill level on TV game appearances is only about a million percent better than basing them off of ICCUP games when you don't even know for sure if the players played all the games on that account or if multiple players used them. Moreover people actually practise and play their best for TV games unlike ICCUP where they might try new stuff out or just practise wierd builds. Much of your post seems to be refuting the statements that some of these players are bad. Yuo are of course right in that they aren't. All the winners of the groups ARE good starcraft players. But what the OP says isn't that they are bad in general, just that they are bad in comparison to the scene or other top players. You have to learn to read between the lines if you're gonna read TL analysis. Believe me, i know for sure who played on what account. And i've watched replays not just pure ICCup statistics. The OP statements about some players reflect a generalized opinion of tl.net community. It has nothing to do with comparison, they are considered bad in general. Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill. An all knowing guy like you wouldn't have missed that koreans mostly share their iccup accounts would you?I'm saying clearly how stupid it is to base skill off of your own guesswork about players you don't even have 100% proof is really them. Stop thinking you know something that the rest of us doesn't because you don't. Basing pure skill on TV appearances only is obviously not 100% accurate but it's one hell of a lot better than your methods which doesn't even guarantee that your observations are from the right player. Even if you would know a players iccup account how many replays have you actually watched of his? 50+? I don't think so. And please don't use "Trust me I know I'm right" as an argument again unless you want to be ripped apart by 100 nerds again. Why would I trust someone I don't know and never heard of? I think you should check the 'Who is who on ICCup Season X' thread, you will be shocked. And you will be shocked to know that i have about 3000 replays of pros from ICCup. I'm saying that you don't get mass replays of players training. Because the teams don't allow sending them out. I know you're the one who did the determining and stuff but why would the pro teams break their rules and funnel mass replays to a foreigner? I'm not sure here but my guess is that you get replays that leaked onto korean replay sites yeah? Because the players in question found out who a certain pro was and uploaded it. But again that doesn't mean you can determine the true skill of a player especially not how they will perform in major leagues. I'm saying that unless you have 50-100 replays of every player you can't determine their skill accurately. Not every game played on ICCUP is a serious one and who are you to determine for what purpose each of the players had with their game. There can be multiple reasons for playing differently than normally even on iccup.
Romad gets sent replays from the progamers themselves. He actually has a shitton of them on MSN. It's because he's literally a replay savant, he has some sort of weird photographic memory when it comes to hotkey pattern recognition -- he knows the hotkey layout for every single Korean pro (400+) and often can figure out offraces and amateurs as well. It's insane, and I didn't believe it until we used him to ID players in TSL. If anyone receives thousands of replays sent directly from Korean pros, it's him. Trust me, I've seen some of them. He doesn't give them out because obviously that'd be mostly a breach of trust -- but the guy is legit. If anyone can judge skills from replays, its Romad.
Before you start saying this:
Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill. An all knowing guy like you wouldn't have missed that koreans mostly share their iccup accounts would you?I'm saying clearly how stupid it is to base skill off of your own guesswork about players you don't even have 100% proof is really them. Stop thinking you know something that the rest of us doesn't because you don't.
Romad is the #1 source on player identification through hotkey patterns. Pros go and seek him out to find out who they played on ICCup. It's not uncommon for big name players (even the top tier S-class ones) to send him packs to figure out who they played.
You should really understand who you are talking to before you just call him a "random russian TL user who guesses at player IDs."
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 07 2009 05:19 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 04:53 Kreedit wrote:On October 07 2009 04:41 StarBrift wrote:
Sorry for not believing a random russian TL user who uses shared iccup accounts to judge a players skill.
What? He got a frigging unique name tag ofc hes not a 'random russian TL user' Maybe you missed my point. I don't care if an admin or part of the crew and thinks he knows the exact skill of a player. I won't quote him on it unless he has some information to back that up. Iccup games are not proof of someones skill. If he was someone living with or observing players in a team first person or a coach or palyer on that team then sure I would say he knows the true skill of a player. Even if Romad would have 100+ replays of every player. How do you expect him to have enough game knowledge to understand all their strenghts and weaknesses. This is something that top foreigners even have a hard time with cross race atleast. I respect Romads dedication to the community for using his observations and time to spot these players. However when you're seeing Shuttle own some A ranked amateur what exactly does that tell you about his performance in an OSL vs top notch oponents? I'm merely saying that you're grabbing very unreliable info and comparing it to situations are are completely different. The level of play and pressure in top TV games is so high.
No. You changed the tone of your argument once you realized who Romad was. At first, you were questioning his ability to ID players and saying he's a "random russian user" who has no way to even know if these replays are of the players he thought. Then, you said there's no way he'd get exclusive replays from Pros because they weren't allowed to send them out.
Now, you're arguing that "nobody has the skill to judge player level based on replays" which is an entirely different argument. It's one thing to say Romad doesn't have the ability to analyze replays (which doesn't make sense because plenty of people can watch and discuss Brood War at a high level without the actual playing skill) and another thing to say Romad can't ID the players and is lying about having so many replays.
You certainly didn't "respect Romad's dedication to the community" when you called him a "random russian user" and questioned him telling the truth about having replays and IDing players. The post he made critiquing the newspost provided a lot of insight that we wouldn't have otherwise, from a source that is pretty reliable. If you don't believe him that's fine, but don't disrespect him by trying to make him out to be some sort of nobody liar. He doesn't deserve that and there's a reason he's got a TL icon.
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On October 07 2009 05:40 (paladin)roMAD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 05:31 Shikyo wrote:
Another thing worth considering is that in practice games you're never trying your hardest. You're most likely practicing a specific build, concentrating on a specific flaw in your play, trying out new strategies, practicing a specific style, and so on. It's very draining mentally to play at your best, and you don't really do that anywhere but the serious games. In my opinion, the players' performance in practice is all nice and good, but completely worthless if you can't prove yourself when it matters. So, does it mean that FrOzean and Jaehoon proved it? Or those prelims didn't matter much? This is the difference between non-broadcasted, thus pressure-free, and broadcasted games. Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 05:00 Nevuk wrote:
A question for Romad - who would you consider the best off-line player from each race? (Or who has the greatest difference in skill between their skill in tv games and their skill in non-televised games). I think Romad could probably state who the best amateurs are as well, fairly reliably.
I think FrOzen has the greatest difference in skill between tv games and non-televised matches. As for best off-line player, it's quite a difficult question to answer, they are all good in practice.
It seems like some players outperform their off-line results, and this is the reason why they get considered hyped - Flying and Violet are the two I know of. Sangho puts up much better results in practice games, according to an interview with Flying, but Flying's play in the STX masters was much better than Sangho's. Violet practices a ton and puts up good results (I followed his iccup accounts for a while, his PvZ stats were really nice, pvp and pvt less so after he reached A on it), but his PL play is superior to what his iccup stats would indicate.
edit: Hwanni also talked about this in the q&a thread, where he said that teams would eventually give up on players who had confidence issues if they didn't get over them. More and more I think that mindset is more important for televised games, especially in the korean culture which seems to be somewhat averse to being on tv.
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On October 07 2009 05:59 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 05:40 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 07 2009 05:31 Shikyo wrote:
Another thing worth considering is that in practice games you're never trying your hardest. You're most likely practicing a specific build, concentrating on a specific flaw in your play, trying out new strategies, practicing a specific style, and so on. It's very draining mentally to play at your best, and you don't really do that anywhere but the serious games. In my opinion, the players' performance in practice is all nice and good, but completely worthless if you can't prove yourself when it matters. So, does it mean that FrOzean and Jaehoon proved it? Or those prelims didn't matter much? This is the difference between non-broadcasted, thus pressure-free, and broadcasted games. On October 07 2009 05:00 Nevuk wrote:
A question for Romad - who would you consider the best off-line player from each race? (Or who has the greatest difference in skill between their skill in tv games and their skill in non-televised games). I think Romad could probably state who the best amateurs are as well, fairly reliably.
I think FrOzen has the greatest difference in skill between tv games and non-televised matches. As for best off-line player, it's quite a difficult question to answer, they are all good in practice. It seems like some players outperform their off-line results, and this is the reason why they get considered hyped - Flying and Violet are the two I know of. Sangho puts up much better results in practice games, according to an interview with Flying, but Flying's play in the STX masters was much better than Sangho's. Violet practices a ton and puts up good results (I followed his iccup accounts for a while, his PvZ stats were really nice, pvp and pvt less so after he reached A on it), but his PL play is superior to what his iccup stats would indicate.
Well, to be honest i was impressed by Violet at the beginning, but later on, when i was following his progress and watching his games (TV games), i realized that he still has a lot to learn, which he confirms himself. I talked to Violet a lot and he said he was ranked second in almost all KT inteam tournaments, that's precisely the period when he took on Bisu and showed excellent results. But lately, he's showing worse results in these tournaments and this imo can be seen in his recent games, which were not of a quality a few months ago.
Edit: about your edit ^^
Yes, this is true. They work on mentality very very hard. Like 5 times Dove approached me with a request to write something encouraging for him in English, so he would look at it and train his mind. Too bad he never succeded 
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On October 07 2009 06:04 (paladin)roMAD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2009 05:59 Nevuk wrote:On October 07 2009 05:40 (paladin)roMAD wrote:On October 07 2009 05:31 Shikyo wrote:
Another thing worth considering is that in practice games you're never trying your hardest. You're most likely practicing a specific build, concentrating on a specific flaw in your play, trying out new strategies, practicing a specific style, and so on. It's very draining mentally to play at your best, and you don't really do that anywhere but the serious games. In my opinion, the players' performance in practice is all nice and good, but completely worthless if you can't prove yourself when it matters. So, does it mean that FrOzean and Jaehoon proved it? Or those prelims didn't matter much? This is the difference between non-broadcasted, thus pressure-free, and broadcasted games. On October 07 2009 05:00 Nevuk wrote:
A question for Romad - who would you consider the best off-line player from each race? (Or who has the greatest difference in skill between their skill in tv games and their skill in non-televised games). I think Romad could probably state who the best amateurs are as well, fairly reliably.
I think FrOzen has the greatest difference in skill between tv games and non-televised matches. As for best off-line player, it's quite a difficult question to answer, they are all good in practice. It seems like some players outperform their off-line results, and this is the reason why they get considered hyped - Flying and Violet are the two I know of. Sangho puts up much better results in practice games, according to an interview with Flying, but Flying's play in the STX masters was much better than Sangho's. Violet practices a ton and puts up good results (I followed his iccup accounts for a while, his PvZ stats were really nice, pvp and pvt less so after he reached A on it), but his PL play is superior to what his iccup stats would indicate. Well, to be honest i was impressed by Violet at the beginning, but later on, when i was following his progress and watching his games (TV games), i realized that he still has a lot to learn, which he confirms himself. I talked to Violet a lot and he said he was ranked second in almost all KT inteam tournaments, that's precisely the period when he took on Bisu and showed excellent results. But lately, he's showing worse results in these tournaments and this imo can be seen in his recent games, which were not of a quality a few months ago.
In an interview he said that last season was supposed to be his last, unless he started performing well, so maybe he doesn't feel as much pressure? Also, it has been the off-season, so there's not really been any incentive for anyone to practice (his last televised game besides masters was in July). Regardless, he definitely has potential, and the new maps are ones that seem to be decent for his style, especially Matchpoint, and tornado to a lesser extent.
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Does romad really have photographic memory or is Hot Bid exaggerating?
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On October 07 2009 06:22 thunk wrote:
Does romad really have photographic memory or is Hot Bid exaggerating?
No exaggeration.
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On October 06 2009 23:19 SynC[gm] wrote:
Horang2: the next player that gets to the Round of 4 and fails... Like by.herO and type-B :D and backho
On October 06 2009 23:23 asdfTT123 wrote:
Who's the 2nd protoss on Sparkyz that qualified other than Horang2? i was wondering this too. i think there was a mistake because there is no other toss from sparkyz that made it.
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Leta is sure come out of his group, he'll own even if pure and hyuk in a 1v2 match >:D
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EPT
