This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls. Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ. Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest. Of course these 'living legends of fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT. As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group. Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential. I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke.
Great analysis. I really look forward to seeing how well Skyhigh and Calm can do in their first OSL as they have done so well in proleague and other leagues lately.
On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote: This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls. Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ. Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest. Of course these 'living legendsof fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT. As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group. Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential. I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke.
It seems to me that basing skill level on TV game appearances is only about a million percent better than basing them off of ICCUP games when you don't even know for sure if the players played all the games on that account or if multiple players used them. Moreover people actually practise and play their best for TV games unlike ICCUP where they might try new stuff out or just practise wierd builds.
Much of your post seems to be refuting the statements that some of these players are bad. Yuo are of course right in that they aren't. All the winners of the groups ARE good starcraft players. But what the OP says isn't that they are bad in general, just that they are bad in comparison to the scene or other top players. You have to learn to read between the lines if you're gonna read TL analysis.
On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote: This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls. Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ. Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest. Of course these 'living legendsof fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT. As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group. Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential. I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke.
It seems to me that basing skill level on TV game appearances is only about a million percent better than basing them off of ICCUP games when you don't even know for sure if the players played all the games on that account or if multiple players used them. Moreover people actually practise and play their best for TV games unlike ICCUP where they might try new stuff out or just practise wierd builds.
Much of your post seems to be refuting the statements that some of these players are bad. Yuo are of course right in that they aren't. All the winners of the groups ARE good starcraft players. But what the OP says isn't that they are bad in general, just that they are bad in comparison to the scene or other top players. You have to learn to read between the lines if you're gonna read TL analysis.
Believe me, i know for sure who played on what account. And i've watched replays not just pure ICCup statistics. The OP statements about some players reflect a generalized opinion of tl.net community. It has nothing to do with comparison, they are considered bad in general.
On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote: This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls. Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ. Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest. Of course these 'living legends of fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT. As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group. Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential. I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke.
Sure, give me the statistics the next time and I guess I'll use them, since, well, I have no access to them otherwise. Some things though. I believe BackHo is a much better player than Shuttle, if you disagree, well boo-hoo. Oh playstyle? I meant in the skill of fluking to the Ro4 of a tournament, not playstyle. It's kind of a joke. If you didn't expect Jaehoon to beat FireFist, that must say a lot about his skill. Also, if you didn't know this is a televised tournament. Not to mention I'd have gotten flamed by far more people than you if I had said that Frozean is good, which I truly think he isn't.
MVP 2-0 Violet I guess was an upset, although it's worth noting that Violet had just about no televised PvTs from the time where he played well. Sure, he stomped 5 terrible TvPers, but it's still by far his weakest match-up. Although, I admit, that was a fuck up by me and I definitely should have mentioned it. I mostly concentrated on the group winners and yeah, I made a mistake in neglecting that.
I don't know how you can call 815's ZvT his best match-up by far if you've ever seen his ZvZ. Once again, this is a televised tournament, I don't really care about iccup results. This is a write-up for an OSL, not an iCCup tournament. And of course those players aren't bad players, but they sure as hell are underdogs against players like Jaedong and Bisu who they will be facing.
Would you rather have me write "every player in this group is amazing, seems like the best player won, he has amazing potential, he's going to win the OSL!" for every group's predictions? Also, I personally have never been a fan of Shuttle's play, and I have my opinion and his 40% PvT record to support me. We're not comparing the players to foreigners or B-teamers, but top-class progamers. I also think it's cool if Frozean beats people offline, but until he does it on TV, it really doesn't matter. Ever seen Magma win an OSL?
Why on earth is Skyhigh hyped too much and you say that Frozean is underrated, when they both are really("really" with Frozean) good offline but have nerve problems, not to mention that Skyhigh is a lot better than Frozean and he's a lot newer to the scene, whereas Frozean has been faling consistantly for 10 years and had like a 0-543728 record last PL season? And I'm supposed to say he's amazing because he beat Effort offline? Next you'll say that TheRock is a very good and consistant player because he's been to the OSL so often, right?
I guess I should base my OSL, a Televised Tournament, predictions on offline games, practice games, and iccup tournaments, then. Would that make you happy?
One thing I got to say though, I have to agree with you on Jaehoon's amazing PvT! Here's a true gem of his, an exceptional display of his PvT prowess:
Now, before reading that post I was supposed to apologize to everyone. I did parts of the write-up at different times and in different moods and with different amount of time in my disposal, so it was quite inconsistant throughout, and some parts have more/different humour than the others. Also, I probably missed some things from inside the groups during the times I didn't have enough time to be as thorough as I'd have wanted to. Also some inconsistancy and most-likely some misinformation in the exact group results is possible.
Overall I think it went all-right, took quite a while ><
On October 06 2009 22:50 (paladin)roMAD wrote: This quite a nice write-up, but some of your comments display complete lack of knowledge of players' skills. I am not talking about TV games, i am talking about progamers' skill overall. In my opinion this is the biggest misjudgement of player's skills on tl.net because all of you only take into account their TV games. Of course TV games mean much, but it's just one game in front of a huge audience and mental aspects start to play much bigger role than in practice or qualifiers. On the other hand, it is pretty hard to have a look at their practice games, so this judgement only by TV games is understandable. However, some comments you made are really clueless. Here are some examples:
In group N comment you call Shuttle a 'worse version of BackHo', which is really weird as their playstyle is very different. Shuttle PvT style beats BaBy's style very easily, as he is very good against harass style and his overall PvT is very very good. BaBy's style reminds of FanTaSy's style with many dropships and vuture harassing and his macro is sometimes quite sloppy. So Shuttle easily defends against harassing and just rolls over BaBy's tiny army. On the other hand, Light TvP style is what beats Shuttle really easily. You can call him a master of turtling or whatever. His TvP is all about turtling, i guess the best counter to him is Bisu with his smart recalls. Another thing you say that 815's weakest mu is ZvT? I'd call it his best mu by far, although his ZvP is becoming better and better. And imo SkyHigh is hyped way too much, especially his TvZ. Same as with Shuttle goes to Jaehoon. The guy has crazy PvT and overall he's really good, although i didn't expect him to beat FireFist to be honest. Of course these 'living legends of fail' in the face of FrOzean and HyuK. They are and were very good players and FrOzean beat both effort and Kwanro 3-2 on Outsider the other day with Effort winning with 4 pool in one of them. He is just very inconsistent and has problems setting his mentality up. HyuK's ZvZ and ZvP are on a high level, although i dunno about his ZvT. As of Group V you say there were no surprises? How about MVP 2-0 Violet? Interestingly though, i consider Violet as much hyped as Gosi[Flying]. He still has a lot to learn and he is very incosistent. But still, i expected him to take the group. Reality is an amazing player, reminds me a lot of FlaSh with his great macro. Watch out for him!
A logical question to me would be 'how do you know anyway?' This information is based on replays and iccup statistics that i have. Not that much, but it helps to learn about player's style and see his potential. I dont want to offend anyone, i just noticed this trend of calling everyone bad just because he lost 6 or 12 games in proleague. They are still good players and if they make it through prelims then it's not just a fluke.
Sure, give me the statistics the next time and I guess I'll use them, since, well, I have no access to them otherwise. Some things though. I believe BackHo is a much better player than Shuttle, if you disagree, well boo-hoo. Oh playstyle? I meant in the skill of fluking to the Ro4 of a tournament, not playstyle. It's kind of a joke. If you didn't expect Jaehoon to beat FireFist, that must say a lot about his skill. Also, if you didn't know this is a televised tournament. Not to mention I'd have gotten flamed by far more people than you if I had said that Frozean is good, which I truly think he isn't.
MVP 2-0 Violet I guess was an upset, although it's worth noting that Violet had just about no televised PvTs from the time where he played well. Sure, he stomped 5 terrible TvPers, but it's still by far his weakest match-up. Although, I admit, that was a fuck up by me and I definitely should have mentioned it. I mostly concentrated on the group winners and yeah, I made a mistake in neglecting that.
I don't know how you can call 815's ZvT his best match-up by far if you've ever seen his ZvZ. Once again, this is a televised tournament, I don't really care about iccup results. This is a write-up for an OSL, not an iCCup tournament. And of course those players aren't bad players, but they sure as hell are underdogs against players like Jaedong and Bisu who they will be facing.
Would you rather have me write "every player in this group is amazing, seems like the best player won, he has amazing potential, he's going to win the OSL!" for every group's predictions? Also, I personally have never been a fan of Shuttle's play, and I have my opinion and his 40% PvT record to support me. We're not comparing the players to foreigners or B-teamers, but top-class progamers. I also think it's cool if Frozean beats people offline, but until he does it on TV, it really doesn't matter. Ever seen Magma win an OSL?
Why on earth is Skyhigh hyped too much and you say that Frozean is underrated, when they both are really("really" with Frozean) good offline but have nerve problems, not to mention that Skyhigh is a lot better than Frozean and he's a lot newer to the scene, whereas Frozean has been faling consistantly for 10 years and had like a 0-543728 record last PL season? And I'm supposed to say he's amazing because he beat Effort offline? Next you'll say that TheRock is a very good and consistant player because he's been to the OSL so often, right?
I guess I should base my OSL, a Televised Tournament, predictions on offline games, practice games, and iccup tournaments, then. Would that make you happy?
Now, before reading that post I was supposed to apologize to everyone. I did parts of the write-up at different times and in different moods and with different amount of time in my disposal, so it was quite inconsistant throughout, and some parts have more/different humour than the others. Also, I probably missed some things from inside the groups during the times I didn't have enough time to be as thorough as I'd have wanted to. Also some inconsistancy and most-likely some misinformation in the exact group results is possible.
Overall I think it went all-right, took quite a while ><
Way to misread everything i wrote lol. Judging skill by televised games is not a good idea, as it takes more than skills to play well under such conditions. And OSL prelims were not fully broadcasted, just some games that were picked by whoever it was, not mentioning no fans at all standing and watching you play on the big screen. I expected FireFist to beat Jaehoon, not because the latter is bad, but because FireFist is good, especially his ZvP. And you say that they would be underdogs if they face Jaedong or Bisu. What an argument is that? Everybody would be an underdog if they face Jaedong or Bisu lol. Do you know why a certain player is sent for Proleague? Because of his results in PL, OSL, MSL? No, he is sent because he showed good results in practice, that's why practice games do count as a certain indicator of skill. I didn't say FrOzean had nerve problems and i said that TV games differ A LOT from practice games and in offline prelims players dont feel such pressure as during the broadcasted games on stage. And this is not your predictions, it's you recap of OSL offline prelims. Sure, it's not your fault that u don't have access to certain information and you could write it simple, but instead you chose the amusing way of doing it. Sure, why not, if you have nothing to write about. And learn to read please.
Edit: forgot about 815. I watched his ZvT a lot. Those were practice replays, not iccup and he was amazingly good. He has certain problems against mech but against bionic play he is amazing. Sure it would be his worst mu when you look at his TLPD page.
On October 07 2009 03:26 NukeTheStars wrote: Lol, nerd fight. This is why some people hate Teamliquid, you know. Elitist jerks battling it out to see who is the most elite jerk of them all.
On the topic of the groups, this round of 36 is shaping out to be one of the best in recent memory. So many great potential match-ups!
EPT
