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On March 04 2009 10:07 Incognito wrote:
The mayor doesn't need the bodyguards to do anything, but not having a central leadership with a reliable bodyguard pool limits the amount of activity stimulation that the regular mayor system has.
what do you mean? The mayor can just ignore the bodyguards all game. Whether they are mafia or not, unless all the real ones die he isn't in trouble. It doesn't mess anything up. Remember the bodyguards don't know who each other are, the Mayor holds all that info. The leadership is still centralized on him.
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bump for people whom haven't seen what i said XD
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On March 04 2009 10:08 Caller wrote:
4 Bodyguards for the above. The mayor PMs a list of bodyguards that he wants to have to the game host.
I like this idea.
On March 04 2009 10:14 Ace wrote:
what do you mean? The mayor can just ignore the bodyguards all game. Whether they are mafia or not, unless all the real ones die he isn't in trouble. It doesn't mess anything up. Remember the bodyguards don't know who each other are, the Mayor holds all that info. The leadership is still centralized on him.
Yes the mayor can ignore the bodyguards. Yes the plan is technically not flawed. But does a single person (mayor) have the same effect on stimulating activity alone as opposed to a mayor with a bodyguard circle?
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Of course he does. Notice in Mafia 2 none of the bodyguards were really public except Caller. Whether the Mayor has a circle or not, as long as the person seems to know what they are doing people will follow them.
And even so, the town doesn't have to listen to the Mayor. Like I said the main point of it is the 2 protected spots that people will fight over.
Mayor shouldn't get to choose his bodyguards, that's just broken.
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"Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad).
This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found."
-I really like this idea because it gives townies a power in that they might get a clue they need to share - also gives mafia more fun because they can fake clues and DTs can only ask if that clue points to someone and they just get a no, not that the clue is fake.
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True. Especially if the mayor is mafia. Well then at least make the bodyguards completely random. It would make it much more interesting.
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On March 04 2009 10:40 Ace wrote:
Of course he does. Notice in Mafia 2 none of the bodyguards were really public except Caller. Whether the Mayor has a circle or not, as long as the person seems to know what they are doing people will follow them.
And even so, the town doesn't have to listen to the Mayor. Like I said the main point of it is the 2 protected spots that people will fight over.
Mayor shouldn't get to choose his bodyguards, that's just broken.
Why shouldn't mayor get to choose bodyguards? It's the first day and he can't trust anybody. It's better than picking x town and one mafia, because then the mayor basically has a 1/4 votecheck. At the same time, guaranteeing bodyguards results in bodyguard plan. By letting the mayor pick bodyguards, it gives them choices: town mayors may pick large groups of mafia by accident, or pick pure town (nobody knows). In addition, mafia mayors may choose to pick mafia as bodyguards as well, to prevent vigilante hits against him.
Plus its more realistic: wouldn't u pick ur most trusted people over some randomly generated group?
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On March 04 2009 10:40 Ace wrote:
Of course he does. Notice in Mafia 2 none of the bodyguards were really public except Caller. Whether the Mayor has a circle or not, as long as the person seems to know what they are doing people will follow them.
And even so, the town doesn't have to listen to the Mayor. Like I said the main point of it is the 2 protected spots that people will fight over.
Mayor shouldn't get to choose his bodyguards, that's just broken.
Why is it broken to choose bodyguards day 1?
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On March 04 2009 10:42 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
"Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad).
This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found."
-I really like this idea because it gives townies a power in that they might get a clue they need to share - also gives mafia more fun because they can fake clues and DTs can only ask if that clue points to someone and they just get a no, not that the clue is fake.
at the same time mafia can fake deaths to hide people, i.e. they use 4 hits one night and then next day fake a clue saying "bob is dead." Bob is mafia and still alive. XDXDXD
Problem is, if they get caught, then they get screwed 
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Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard?
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On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard?
What's wrong with that?
They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic.
So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic.
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On March 04 2009 10:44 Caller wrote:
In addition, mafia mayors may choose to pick mafia as bodyguards as well, to prevent vigilante hits against him.
Plus its more realistic: wouldn't u pick ur most trusted people over some randomly generated group?
Maybe I shoulda explained this whoops.
A Mafia bodyguard is literally FAKE - a vigi hit will go through.
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On March 04 2009 10:08 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 09:42 Ace wrote:
How? The Mayor doesn't need the Bodyguards to do anything. He can ignore them all just because he knows 1 of them might be mafia, so he doesn't have to tell them anything.
When the game is large you need double lynch and vigis, but little of both for the town to have any realistic chance if both sides are even skill wise. this man speaks the truth ideally we want a set up similar to that of mafia 2/3. I suggest the following: A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes. An Executioner: (also elected). May end voting at whatever time he chooses, once. 4 Bodyguards for the above. The mayor PMs a list of bodyguards that he wants to have to the game host. 2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck. 4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit. 3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone. 2 Boondock Saints. May kill two people, once per night, starting night 2. 23 Townies All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3). 10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up. Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad). This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found.
I think boondock saints are a bit OP. Unless one random mafia gets a clue about each hit?
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United States2186 Posts
On March 04 2009 09:14 Incognito wrote:
Question 1: I don't expect anyone to answer this but was it just a coincidence that there were no vets last game or were there smurfs?
Back to the main discussion, I think we're going too far in trying to accomodate the game to fit what we THINK will happen in the next game. I think its pretty clear that we shouldn't have a game of all blues or a game of all greens. But I think that complicating the process by having a mafia in a mayor/pardonner system is a bit too much. First off, assume the mayor is town. Then we have a 1/4 list of people who are mafia in the bodyguard circle. Using the infinite DT rolecheck, you check them all, then root out the mafia member. Then you've got a 3 bodyguard + mayor + pardonner circle with one dead mafia. Basically with this system if the mafia dont get the mayor position, then they've already lost one member.
In the past, I thought the point of the mayor system was to have a role to call double lynches without fear of the double lynch caller dying off soon (if you had some other random blue role with the power to call double lynch). The mayor pardoner system in the past has been abused to a certain extent I believe. And while yes, it could make for good games with mafia infiltration, it really alienates a lot of people. Which is why I liked Chuiu's idea of the town option for double lynch. Although I'd probably make it ONLY one option (double lynch) and make it effective maybe 4 times per game. Keep in mind that depending on the mafia:town ratio and the mafia KP: town KP ratio, double lynches vary in importance.
For the activity, I thought we were going to use mandatory voting (abstentions permitted) with modkills on anyone who didn't vote. Probably something we should look into this game.
Mandatory voting + pre-planned abstentions are good. I like. It shouldn't be too unforgiving though if the person is normally active but more of a system to prevent people from not caring if they get townie.
I think you underestimate the situation the 1 mafia BG + millers + godfather puts the town in though Incognito. No information is certain at all in that scenario (which is great!). That's not easy to clean out at all and will require some shrewd thinking to even do it. Quite likely it could be better if the town just ignored the offices and focused elsewhere. When I look at it right now I don't see any obvious answer and my approach would be to trick someone into revealing their hand which would be hard to pull off. That imo is a huge part of mafia (that we don't go into deep enough), which is why I'm so interested in it. Will the town decide to not care about the offices? Will they go through the trouble to clean out the rats nest? It offers a lot of possibilities for both sides and is a format I could see being used repeatedly. I think it has a lot of stimulation, since the town has to make a choice right away how to handle it. Bockit's idea of having BG's be randomly selected from everyone is great as well. If the town gets lucky and finds the right mafia BG...well they can just end their cleaning. But if they don't know how many there are...
Basically the main thing we need to address is: Mayor/Pardonner or no offices. Let's decide this first, since everything else derives from this decision. I originally wanted no offices since it promoted an inner circle but with godfather + millers + unknown alliegances of BGs (I think that blues shouldn't be BG though yes? Otherwise killing them is too devastating), I am starting to like this a lot.
Caller, the problem with that, among other things (being able to choose bgs, 2 hit vigis, crazy broken executioner, votechecks), such a system of death would confuse people and make them less willing to play at normal level (like Ace's game). It's interesting, but I don't think adding too many new things at once is a good idea. Especially when our past 3 games have been flops more or less, we need a solid one that will go well.
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On March 04 2009 10:50 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:44 Caller wrote:
In addition, mafia mayors may choose to pick mafia as bodyguards as well, to prevent vigilante hits against him.
Plus its more realistic: wouldn't u pick ur most trusted people over some randomly generated group? Maybe I shoulda explained this whoops. A Mafia bodyguard is literally FAKE - a vigi hit will go through.
even so, picking a mafia bodyguard might be useful anyways, like as a neutral reason for a mafia mayor to be like "oh that's weird" or maybe in order to fake mafia as other bodyguards, i.e. to have 4 bodyguards + 2 "mafia" bodyguards (to further cause chaos, which always favors mafia)
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On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic.
:/
Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard.
DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role.
The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard.
That's pretty bad don't you think?
Or what happens if the Mayor is scum?
The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner.
Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen.
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I think we should take Caller's idea of pmed clues though because any angst about being a townie will be solved. 2 hit vigis are OP. Executioner is maybe OP but nobody ever gives a fuck about the pardoner's power except day 1 strategery so eh... I still don't understand why letting Mayor choose bodyguards is OP.
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On March 04 2009 10:51 Ver wrote:
Caller, the problem with that, among other things (being able to choose bgs, 2 hit vigis, crazy broken executioner, votechecks), such a system of death would confuse people and make them less willing to play at normal level (like Ace's game). It's interesting, but I don't think adding too many new things at once is a good idea. Especially when our past 3 games have been flops more or less, we need a solid one that will go well.
On the contrary, I think a reason why our last games have been flops is because we use the same old song and dance each game. As a result, everybody expects "oh, army of blues will win it for us." By turning the tables, we could have a more interesting game as people will be like "ooh, this is new, we have to adapt!" i.e. Mafia 2 was a great game, but it was relatively new (Mafia 1 kind of flopped because we were unfamiliar with the game as a whole). By keeping the idea of Mafia the same, but by creating a new aspect, I think people will get more into it.
The executioner/bg/vigi/votecheck things can be fixed. But I think that we could get more townie involvement this way, as well as create new ways for mafia to cause chaos instead of just 1a2a3a4a5aing.
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I dont understand why you would want fake deaths and PM'd clues...
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On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen.
Innocent mayor could just as easily choose a mafia BG who then fakes being a DT by getting lucky saying the Mayor's original role.
If mayor is scum he can leak it to some townie who earns his trust.
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EPT
