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United States2186 Posts
On March 04 2009 07:09 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 06:58 Ace wrote:
unfortunately you can't do only townies vs mafia. With no DTs and no medics the mafia will almost always win. They literally have nothing to do except kill smart players as there is no risk in failing and nothing to break their behavior.
Now to explain also why Mayor/Pardoner works so well:
with this setup, the only guaranteed innocents are the Bodyguards. Like Ver said this is generally terrible for the game as a guaranteed innocent just gets heaps of protection and all the role info. However with BGs the difference is they actually can't come out because they protect 2 high profile players, and they don't know each other anyway unless the Mayor tells them. This kind of ideology should be the basis of any future major game play changes: roles that are crucial but not powerful on their own. They ARE important but they actually don't have any "real" power. I think this would go a long way to solving this "Im mad I didn't get a role" mentality. Problem is I think we have already established that the best way to play a game like that is for the mayor to give all BGs info about all the other BGs. If they don't, a BG comes out and they lynch the mayor. I thought it might be somewhat interesting to have 1 BG really be mafia (and not actually protect anyone) but still be on the list. At the very least, it would slow down BG plans and force the town to be a lot more careful.
Yes the BG plan I had in game 4 gets around the godfather. That is why the number of BGs needs to be very low (2 might be more appropriate even) so that it is really risky to do so. But that may still not be enough you are correct. Thanks for bringing that up I had forgotten entirely about it.
The 1 BG being mafia thing is interesting. I like it a lot. We should probably make it 4 BGs though, with 3 being selected from townspeople and 1 from the mafia. Stuff like this is very good.
Also, keep the role #'s unknown yes? I think this is great for both sides.
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go classic...
DT: clue check/role check
PE: vote check
Medic
Vigi
Veteran: 2 lives
Mafia
Godfather
Suicide Bomber
Something similar to this....
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If you want to keep the role #s unknown, we can't make up definitive numbers of each role to recommend unless we decide not to play. It isn't fair for some players to know role numbers but not all of them.
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I like the one bodyguard being mafia thing too if it's added in with Godfather. That breaks the bodyguard plan both ways, but still encourages it's use but way more hoops to jump through.
I think you might have to keep role numbers revealed if using Mayor.
An alternate way could be using Chuiu/BC system:
All the role amounts are hidden. Town can however vote 2 or 3 times a game to reveal the roles of all the people that have died so far.
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On March 04 2009 08:03 Ace wrote:
I like the one bodyguard being mafia thing too if it's added in with Godfather. That breaks the bodyguard plan both ways, but still encourages it's use but way more hoops to jump through.
Wow that is an EVIL thought. Godfather bodyguard? I think my head just exploded
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wait no no lol...I mean the Godfather role and a mafia bodyguard.
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Ok, as general thought.
say 50-60 players again like normal.
Mayor/Pardoner
4 bodyguards(randomly chosen 3 from all townies(ie blue could end up as bg as well) and 1 random mafia that isnt godfather or agent of chaos if hes in game.
10 mafia
10-15 blues (medic, detective, vig)
rest as greens.
No need for new roles. The question comes down to who runs this in the end.
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How about
60 people
Mayor
Pardoner
4 Bodyguards (3 towny/blue / 1 mafia that's not GF)
9 Mafia
1 Godfather
0 AoC (Godfather makes more interesting mayor anyway, although it didn't help us much in Ace's Mafia World)
1 Miller to be the GF's foil
2 DT
2 Medic
2 Vigi
2 Vet
2 PE
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^^^ sounds about right, but I think you need more than 1 miller.
Probably don't want to try 60 people either. Also we'd need to get a lot of the vet players and players from the first 2 games to return so it balances out "top suspected" people.
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On March 04 2009 08:46 Ace wrote:
^^^ sounds about right, but I think you need more than 1 miller.
Probably don't want to try 60 people either. Also we'd need to get a lot of the vet players and players from the first 2 games to return so it balances out "top suspected" people.
That's why I added the greased up mute guy to the role list in my original post. There's got to be a better way to do this but here's part of my intent for that role: The most confirmable blue (although its not totally confirmable) would be the greased guy and it would be the hardest for the mafia to fake (and they couldn't fake it for long). This could make first hanging kind of like a mayoral election instead of hanging whoever gets linked to an errant clue because some people will try to figure out who is the greased guy from the participation. This means the town will have a motivation to hang any totally inactive people, townies will have motivation to post at least at first, and mafia will have reason to kill silent townies instead of focusing on the smartest people. But this role wouldn't actually do that because as soon as any player posts once they aren't the greased guy and mafia still might be better going after good players.
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The reason people get linked off of random first day clues is just sheer luck, or mob mentality taking over. No role is gonna stop that from happening, and technically with a large game somebody is bound to die the first day on the lynch through random voting anyway.
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On March 04 2009 09:07 Ace wrote:
The reason people get linked off of random first day clues is just sheer luck, or mob mentality taking over. No role is gonna stop that from happening, and technically with a large game somebody is bound to die the first day on the lynch through random voting anyway.
I'm not worried about that, I just thought this would give the town an interesting choice where they could lynch someone in order to make them a leader or try to kill a mafia day one. Also I'm trying to find a role or some way to make bad / inactive players get killed before good ones but perhaps that is for the medics.
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Question 1: I don't expect anyone to answer this but was it just a coincidence that there were no vets last game or were there smurfs?
Back to the main discussion, I think we're going too far in trying to accomodate the game to fit what we THINK will happen in the next game. I think its pretty clear that we shouldn't have a game of all blues or a game of all greens. But I think that complicating the process by having a mafia in a mayor/pardonner system is a bit too much. First off, assume the mayor is town. Then we have a 1/4 list of people who are mafia in the bodyguard circle. Using the infinite DT rolecheck, you check them all, then root out the mafia member. Then you've got a 3 bodyguard + mayor + pardonner circle with one dead mafia. Basically with this system if the mafia dont get the mayor position, then they've already lost one member.
In the past, I thought the point of the mayor system was to have a role to call double lynches without fear of the double lynch caller dying off soon (if you had some other random blue role with the power to call double lynch). The mayor pardoner system in the past has been abused to a certain extent I believe. And while yes, it could make for good games with mafia infiltration, it really alienates a lot of people. Which is why I liked Chuiu's idea of the town option for double lynch. Although I'd probably make it ONLY one option (double lynch) and make it effective maybe 4 times per game. Keep in mind that depending on the mafia:town ratio and the mafia KP: town KP ratio, double lynches vary in importance.
For the activity, I thought we were going to use mandatory voting (abstentions permitted) with modkills on anyone who didn't vote. Probably something we should look into this game.
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There could end up being a miller bodyguard. I don't think DTs should be infinite either and it would take time to do that either way.
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the point of Mayor/Pardoner wasn't only for double lynch - it was a focal point to start the game. The elections cause so much discussion it makes the game intense from the get go. Reason being everyone wants the Bodyguards for night time immunity (Mafia safe from Vigis).Double lynch was actually something I rarely remember being used much at all as it was really secondary.
If you give mafia 1 bodyguard and town has a innocent Mayor that just trades the DT checks for time. Sure, the town could end up with an inner circle but it will take TIME, DTs revealing themselves and all kinds of hoops to jump through so that it isn't as easy as before. That's what we're trying to do here - keep the game balanced, interesting, and make as many strategies viable. The loss of 1 mafia member for the possible DT commotion is well worth it in most cases.
modkills are good.
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On March 04 2009 09:20 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
There could end up being a miller bodyguard. I don't think DTs should be infinite either and it would take time to do that either way.
I think Infinite DT checks are acceptable if we're going to go with 2 DTs for a 50 person game as suggested in previous posts. Its not like they're realistically going to survive for too long anyway.
On March 04 2009 09:23 Ace wrote:
the point of Mayor/Pardoner wasn't only for double lynch - it was a focal point to start the game. The elections cause so much discussion it makes the game intense from the get go. Reason being everyone wants the Bodyguards for night time immunity (Mafia safe from Vigis).Double lynch was actually something I rarely remember being used much at all as it was really secondary.
If you give mafia 1 bodyguard and town has a innocent Mayor that just trades the DT checks for time. Sure, the town could end up with an inner circle but it will take TIME, DTs revealing themselves and all kinds of hoops to jump through so that it isn't as easy as before. That's what we're trying to do here - keep the game balanced, interesting, and make as many strategies viable. The loss of 1 mafia member for the possible DT commotion is well worth it in most cases.
modkills are good.
True, it is a focal point to start the game, but it really is not based on any solid information. I'm not sure if giving the game a starting point is worth the trouble of another potential inner circle. And if you introduce mafia bodyguards, that decreases the influence the mayor has in "starting the game" since the chaos/uncertainty will taint his power. The mayor/pardoner setup might be viable, but I think we should explore other options too. I just don't feel comfortable with a mafia bodyguard right now. Perhaps creating another role to cause uncertainty? Like a traitor for example. Or a miller.
Double lynch probably wasn't necessary with vigis, but since I know there is talk about not having vigis, double lynch is crucial to allow the town to be competitive with mafia even if they haven't killed any mafia for the first 1/2 days
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How? The Mayor doesn't need the Bodyguards to do anything. He can ignore them all just because he knows 1 of them might be mafia, so he doesn't have to tell them anything.
When the game is large you need double lynch and vigis, but little of both for the town to have any realistic chance if both sides are even skill wise.
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The mayor doesn't need the bodyguards to do anything, but not having a central leadership with a reliable bodyguard pool limits the amount of activity stimulation that the regular mayor system has.
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On March 04 2009 09:42 Ace wrote:
How? The Mayor doesn't need the Bodyguards to do anything. He can ignore them all just because he knows 1 of them might be mafia, so he doesn't have to tell them anything.
When the game is large you need double lynch and vigis, but little of both for the town to have any realistic chance if both sides are even skill wise.
this man speaks the truth
ideally we want a set up similar to that of mafia 2/3.
I suggest the following:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
An Executioner: (also elected). May end voting at whatever time he chooses, once.
4 Bodyguards for the above. The mayor PMs a list of bodyguards that he wants to have to the game host.
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Boondock Saints. May kill two people, once per night, starting night 2.
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad).
This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found.
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Sydney2287 Posts
I'm really liking Ver's suggestion #1 as a format for the next game, with the inclusion of the bodyguard discussion we've been having over the past page. That is:
1) Mayor/Pardonner (1st day election)
Say 50 people:
8 mafia (4 KP, 3KP at 5, 2 KP min). 1 Godfather is included. Shows up as a role of his choice to a rolecheck (not vet) but is not immune to cluechecks.
2 DTs
2 Vets
2 Medics
3 Millers
3 Bodyguards
30 Townspeople.
Mayor can order a double lynch twice.
Pardonner can pardon someone twice.
DTs: Have infinite rolechecks (must wait until first night to use) and Infinite Cluechecks (to get the godfather). These take the form of 'link X person to X codename yes/no' (normal way is pretty awful but could keep that if ppl wanted it).
Vets: +1 Life
Medics: Normal
Millers: Townsperson that shows up as mafia to a rolecheck. They do not know that they are a miller.
That with the change that bodyguards can be selected from mafia or town. I don't see why it should be made a constant ratio of mafia bodyguards:townie bodyguards or even that there is a guaranteed mafia in there. The possibility that any of the bodyguards could be mafia or millers should be enough to disrupt the BG plan, while allowing to a certain extent viability on the condition that enough hoops are jumped through.
On March 04 2009 06:07 Ver wrote:
This recent game was horribly balanced with vets (no guaranteed innocents ever), and the format is poor in itself because it eliminates targeting strategy and just promotes mass killing of smart townies. Like Ace said, people just have to realize that everyone can't get a role and play even if they are townie. There's so much to do as townie but everyone is so lazy and apathetic when they are townie, it's ridiculous.
You're entirely right here, I just liked the (potential) variance it brought to the game, I think if it were to be revisited down the track (Everyone with a role), the roles need to be watered down even further, with more discussion on the roles so we can make sure something like the vet plan we had last game can't happen again.
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EPT
