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On March 04 2009 11:32 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable. 1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG? 2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt! 3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause.
1.) caller you're not making sense. If the DT is a BG...why would he be guessing?
2.) We are talking about REAL Godfather roles. Godfather appears Innocent Townie, not as whatever he wants.
3.) Not at all. If the Mayor is scum and he wants to kill off all his bodyguards to get to the Pardoner he uses up valuable KP in doing so. This is a lot different than a legit DT getting himself added to the kill list because he got fucked over. Remember DTs generally DO NOT want to be out in the open. Being a bodyguard puts him under the eye of someone else.
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On March 04 2009 11:35 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff. How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said. Still I think it's better. Run with it.
Maybe some killed would randomly be left off the day post and left to the townies... I think the game master could kind of on the fly balance depending on what roles were left etc.
My problem with this is townies + millers = 25
Mafia = 10
That seems a bit high chance for multiple mafia to become BGs but maybe not.
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On March 04 2009 11:38 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:32 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable. 1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG? 2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt! 3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause. 1.) caller you're not making sense. If the DT is a BG...why would he be guessing? 2.) We are talking about REAL Godfather roles. Godfather appears Innocent Townie, not as whatever he wants. 3.) Not at all. If the Mayor is scum and he wants to kill off all his bodyguards to get to the Pardoner he uses up valuable KP in doing so. This is a lot different than a legit DT getting himself added to the kill list because he got fucked over. Remember DTs generally DO NOT want to be out in the open. Being a bodyguard puts him under the eye of someone else.
1. I mean checks mayor in general.
2. Even so, there will still be doubt.
3. The DT does not have to reveal himself as a DT to mayor, even if mayor is scum.
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United States2186 Posts
On March 04 2009 11:38 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:32 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable. 1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG? 2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt! 3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause. 1.) caller you're not making sense. If the DT is a BG...why would he be guessing? 2.) We are talking about REAL Godfather roles. Godfather appears Innocent Townie, not as whatever he wants. 3.) Not at all. If the Mayor is scum and he wants to kill off all his bodyguards to get to the Pardoner he uses up valuable KP in doing so. This is a lot different than a legit DT getting himself added to the kill list because he got fucked over. Remember DTs generally DO NOT want to be out in the open. Being a bodyguard puts him under the eye of someone else.
While I think this discussion is kinda silly, I do want to raise this point. I want the godfather in, period. Uncertainty=good and it fits perfectly.
The question is, should Godfather be auto-townie or can he choose from ACTIVE blue roles (i,e godfather veteran is overpowered)? To me it makes sense, because it represents a risk in exchange for a greater level of trust and influence. I,e it's hard to act as a fake DT or medic but you will have more power and a greater chance to obtain information. On the other hand, you pick townie and you're set but have no easy power. Plus this also makes people not trust the word of blues absolutely, which is also good.
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1.)Caller the DT is a BODYGUARD now. If he talks he's risking two people's lives instead of just his. If the Mayor is legit then the Mayor can trust him easy because it would be almost impossible to guess his role. It's a one way verification.
2.) :/
3.) ok Caller so what else would he do? How else could he have possibly gotten the info? Even if he says "yea some real DT randomly found me as a mouthpiece" - ding - he'd get killed anyway. What is he going to do stay quiet all game and hope another DT does the work? While the other DT is doing the same?
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I'm more for Godfather = Innocent townie. It takes attention off the blues since people keep getting caught up in them. Also with very few blue roles like a normal game a Godfather faking blue becomes even more risky, but hey if you want to go that route I don't mind too much.
You mean appear as a blue right and not have actual powers?
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On March 04 2009 11:53 Ace wrote:
1.)Caller the DT is a BODYGUARD now. If he talks he's risking two people's lives instead of just his. If the Mayor is legit then the Mayor can trust him easy because it would be almost impossible to guess his role. It's a one way verification.
2.) :/
3.) ok Caller so what else would he do? How else could he have possibly gotten the info? Even if he says "yea some real DT randomly found me as a mouthpiece" - ding - he'd get killed anyway. What is he going to do stay quiet all game and hope another DT does the work? While the other DT is doing the same?
clearly we have two different views of the same three questions
i'm feeling stupid right now so I may not be able to think clearly. Let me try again later.
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On March 04 2009 11:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:35 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff. How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said. Still I think it's better. Run with it. Maybe some killed would randomly be left off the day post and left to the townies... I think the game master could kind of on the fly balance depending on what roles were left etc. My problem with this is townies + millers = 25 Mafia = 10 That seems a bit high chance for multiple mafia to become BGs but maybe not.
Any answer to this?
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Oh what about the fact that checks will be focused so intently on the BGs what if mafia don't want to be BGs? It would suck if they got targeted just for being mafia. Probably not a problem though - to check mayor pardoner and 4 BGs would take all 6 possible role checks and prevent more useful vote checks.
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On March 04 2009 12:21 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 04 2009 11:35 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff. How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said. Still I think it's better. Run with it. Maybe some killed would randomly be left off the day post and left to the townies... I think the game master could kind of on the fly balance depending on what roles were left etc. My problem with this is townies + millers = 25 Mafia = 10 That seems a bit high chance for multiple mafia to become BGs but maybe not. Any answer to this?
Eh, assuming 4 BGs, your odds of more than 1 mafia aren't really that big. ~1 in 9 players is a BG. Which means you should have 1 mafia and 3 townies on average. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
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United States2186 Posts
The mods should adjust the BG formulation so that it makes it interesting. I leave that to their own discretion.
You guys are underestimating how hard it is to clear out the rat's nest.
1) Only 2 DTs, rolechecks start after the first lynch. That means it takes 3 days assuming perfect conditions (no overlapping, deaths, etc)
2) DTs have no way of proving someone valid or not. Remember, the Mayor is not going to make the BGs public or else they'd just die. So first the DTs would have to investigate the mayor if they want to know the BGs (but they'd have to expose themselves to a potentially godfather mayor). But they can't 100% trust the results of their check on anyone (could be godfather if innocent or miller if guilty). Lastly, how would they coordinate with each other unless the mayor can someonehow prove his innocence? Then they have to clear all the bodyguards and pardonner? What a nightmare. They have to cut their efforts somewhere, or else the rest of the mafia will be totally ignored. It's a really tough problem that will be very interesting to see how things turn out.
And yes Ace I mean the godfather gets to choose what they appear as to rolechecks but they don't have any real power.
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I have some great clue ideas I hope they aren't too good though.
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On March 04 2009 14:01 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I have some great clue ideas I hope they aren't too good though.
Just got home from work and am skimming this but to respond to this.
Clue's are completely subjective. By changing who hosts the game, the style in which the clues are presented are changed, making it much much harder to analyze, regardless of how hard or easy the clues are.
In my game, a few of the mafia had rather obnoxious and hard clues while others had really easy and obvious, yet almost no-one was pegged on them and the mafia were caught due to bad voting and getting caught on the vote lists.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I completely agree with Ace's suggestions on page one. Now i haven't read all 5 pages (im getting there!). But this elite inner-circle of townies and how people want to contribute but can't and what not is bullshitttt. In Mafia 2 I started out a nobody, not involve in Ace's "inner circle" and barely knowing anything that was going on. But I formed some alliances (with fusionsdf, MTF and Camlito) and we did some work behind the scenes and eventually we became the inner circle.
Just put effort into your analysis/thoughts and things will happen. The mafia can't kill everyone in one go!
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It was very unlucky that last game ended that way, not only because a mafia game takes days or even weeks to prepare and get going, but because this left the general "feeling" that this kind of setup doesnt work or that its useless to give everybody a rol (im calling ace directly here). I was really interested in the way things would work with everyone semi/blue so i strongly ask players to review the game (not posts but the setup) and agree with me that the causes of the "fiasco" were:
1) the broken ability from players to provide a confirmed innocence publicly.
2) the unfortunate distribution of roles. (with most of the mafia being new players)
The setup didnt break because everybody had a rol and id really like not to throw this idea too soon. I think with non extravoting veterans this could have been an "epic" good game.
In my opinion the next game the main concerns and priorities for the game hoster, if he wants to run a smooth game taking the experince from previous games should be to:
A) Provide a balaced setup for both sides (reviewing all the posible combinations between abilities before the game starts, because everydody will always want to abuse any kind of broken ability (namely votechecks, silencer, convertion, confirmed public innocence of anykind, etc).
B) Encourage participation.
While A) can be covered giving the town blue players to battle the inherent debility of a puregreen setup, the stratification of town roles affects B), creating inactivity. Inactivity will always exist at some degree even with everyone having a rol (just look at how many people voted in last game without posting even once). This is a fact, people dont like when theyr role is less important, "epic" or simply not mafia.
The solution to this can take two ways: give everybody something to do with an homogeneous low power in the town, or simply diminish the existance of higher importance roles to a minimum. In these terms i dont like the pardoner/mayor/bg setup as this adds even more stratification and roles to the game (since there will be dt/vet/vigi/pm anyways).
What id like:
1 A game ran by BC. No offence to Chiuiu, Ace, Caller or others but as i stated before this guy is eager to run a game again, i know he doesnt try to push it too much but he is secretly proud that his game was good, balanced and well planned, and he is preparing next game with background support of random SCI characters from who knows wich comedy/story.
2 No office. To me office sucks, office equals warranted townie or a highly possible town debacle if mafia takes it. Warranted townie equals stratification, and the chance of mafia in the office or not adds more randomness to a game about deception.
3 A game with less players. With 40 players is enough to start and end a good game helping activity. I also hate having to check 60 peoples profiles for clues and honestly clues make the game more interesting (this is coming from the worst clue analizer in TL mafia ever)
4 Mandatory vote and modkill. I rather have a townie killed instead of misslynched, and lynching should be the main power of the town. Inactives dont hurt because they dont support the town, they hurt because mafia hide in the inactives.
Keep it simple issues.
5 No proved innocence of anykind from the rol abilities, innocence has to come as a result of the game discussion. (maybe PE ability is the exception here since its used once)
5 Rol reveal after dead. Simple, effective. No pm death or covered rol after dead. More lack of information to a side that already lacks it is nonsense. Informed minority vs uninformed mayority is the idea. As the mayority decreases they have to win information from it, this is fact of mafia.
6 No overpowered roles. Give heterogeneous power to the roles (No Convertion, NRA, traitor, don or things like that). But keep it simple doesnt mean necessarily that we cant play a game with pure semi/blue, last game was simple until the vets extravoted.
4 A game with everydody with something to do at least once like last one. But with more variety of roles. Adding the watcher (guy that is informed if target player is visited and who visited him without telling the outcome), the stalker (guy that follows a player and knows where he goes), the unpowered DT (cluechecker) etc can be added as long as the power is at the same level as the others.
5 A mafia with no special roles/abilities. If this means that the town doesnt have a power to keep the game balanced then no power to the town. (here i meant common power like sanctuary). This is more a subject of balance discussion, but ideally mafia power comes only from the information they posses.
6 If 5 is not possible because most of you think im wrong and we cant keep it simple with everybody doing small tasks, then a high number of plain townies and a few classic blues. In this setup the classic dt/pm/vet/vigi is enough to power the town. Ratio blue/green cant never be more than 1/5, because that means selected circles will arise and bored powerless players will simply give up.
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I'm in agreement if it's something like you suggested malongo. Like I said, not powerful but important. A watcher is important because while he isn't game changing himself, the info he can gather is. The problem now becomes people who are still unsatisfied with their role - literally you can't please everybody.
I'm not interested in running another game anyway. I've got no problem with BC hosting another game.
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On March 04 2009 22:17 Ace wrote:
I'm in agreement if it's something like you suggested malongo. Like I said, not powerful but important. A watcher is important because while he isn't game changing himself, the info he can gather is. The problem now becomes people who are still unsatisfied with their role - literally you can't please everybody.
I'm not interested in running another game anyway. I've got no problem with BC hosting another game.
Oh i wasnt trying anything personal at any level Ace you know you are a respected good player and im not ahahaha but i have no problem about that, i just try to have fun. My call was because you posted that "this is not going to work". While im not completely sure about all having roles im sure that helps activity more than anything else.
And for the unpleased people maybe its time to start requeriments to play if we want to mantain a green majority, we cant kill the game just because people sign up to never show up again. Starting with less players could be an option, maybe 30 people that have proved participation.
The way i see TL-Mafia is: it started with a lot of people interested for the novelty and then evolved into "omg im going to be famous in TL community if im Mafia/DT/Mayor lolol oh too bad im just townie, goodbye". Im just looking at players like fishball, again nothing personal, but he simply trolls the town work. Well at least he is having his fun (in his very own personal way) but there are players like kuja900 ("omg this town sucks") that do nothing when they are just green but that are active and dont hesitate to spam 1a2a3a4a5a6a when they are mafia. I understand, the clue analisis is not fun for them and having less power makes them bored. So the only way i see the game going in some way (or evolving) is to force activity and limit the players, or make the roles equally important and give small tasks to everybody other than just voting/clue work.
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What more can I say?
I'll make it brief: the simpler the better.
Don't overdo it with the special roles. It will only backfire.
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Well Fishball and Ozc types are just random elements to the game lol. Nothing in any ruleset is going to change the way they behave. They are somewhat good for the game depending on what role they end up with (lord help you if Ozc is ever a DT).
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I will add a note in malongo,
Chuiu spends alot more time on making these then I do, my game was a mod of his mafia 3 
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EPT
