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Well I've been in two mafia games now and both fell apart rather rapidly. One fell apart because one mafia got in our mafia's IRC. Another fell apart because apparently there were no townies. Someone was going to make an IRC but my ISP blocks all IRC traffic so I thought I'd make a thread to discuss ideas. I'm not starting a mafia game or saying anything bad about anyone's running of mafia games - I just got bored and curious and decided to throw together a game design document based on stealing my favorite ideas from mafia games on this site and seeing what new roles/tweaks I could come up with. What are your ideas? / What do you think of mine?
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Pyrrhuloxia's Mafia Idea
Mafia is a "battle between an informed minority and an uninformed majority" (Wikipedia).
Mafia objective: kill non-mafia players until the mafia are equal or greater than the number of non-mafia.
Non-Mafia (Town) objective: kill all mafia players.
Rules:
The Mafia kill power equation is secret - it is told to all mafia members in their role PM. Mafia can discuss amongst themselves who to kill before the Don PMs me a kill list. Mafia and any other night power roles should PM me before night if they are worried about being gone during the night phase.
Each morning post that starts a day will contain clues. Clues can come from names, sigs, posts, profiles, blogs, damn near anything. They will be much more difficult earlier in the game. Clues will point out mafia that kill and may point toward blue roles that act at night. Smurfing? Your clues are gonna be easier.
If you don't want to read don't play this game, there will be oceans of text for you to wade through.
Credits
Thank you to Chuiu, Ace, Caller, and anyone else who was run a game of mafia or given advice about the game.
GAME RULES:
- Days will be about 48 hours. Nights will be about 24 hours.
- When you are dead, you are done posting. No last gasp posts even. If you have something you are dying to say, wait till the game is over.
- DON'T GIVE UP. Don't get pissed off and admit being mafia just because you are about to be unluckily hung. The only two games I've played have ended near immediately and I don't want that to happen here unless it an entire side decides to GG.
- Keep posts mafia related.
- Don't post here if you're not playing.
- If you're dead, you are dead in your PM inbox and irc and elsewhere for all things related to this mafia game until the game is over (I can't enforce this but it will make it better for us all).
- There are no given role counts other than there will be 1 Don and 1-2 traitors. Everything else is fuzzy.
VOTING RULES:
- I will make a vote blog. Vote there AND POST NOTHING ELSE THERE.
- You must clearly declare your vote, bold it, and begin it with a # sign.
- YOUR VOTE MUST BEGIN WITH A # SIGN OR I WON'T SEE IT AND IT WON'T COUNT.
- If you want to change your vote, EDIT your post in the vote blog, don't post a second vote.
- No autochanging votes.
- You can only vote for other living players.
- You can abstain but must clearly do that.
- IF YOU DO NOT POST A VOTE OR ABSTAINING IN THE VOTE BLOG TWO VOTES IN A ROW YOU WILL BE KILLED DUE TO INACTIVITY. If you are going to be gone for three days and really want to be part of the game, PM me what's up beforehand and what you want your votes to be and I'll determine if it can be accomodated.
Your role PMs will come from me or are fake.
ROLES:
(A day/night cycle begins with a day and ends with a night)
(Note that certain powers recharge on certain days instead of at certain durations. This is so you don't have to use the power right away, you can balance the risk of dying before you can use your power against the fact that more protection may be focused on days right after recharging and the fact you may want to wait for more info to use your power more effectively / assuredly.) (Roles recharging in this way can't save up more than one charge)
TOWN ROLES:
Detective: You may ask anytime during a day/night cycle if a clue points to a certain person for a yes/no answer. You can do this once per day/night cycle.
Poll Worker: During the night, you may find out how many mafia voted for a specific person during the day that just ended. This power begins charged and recharged every 15 days.
Private Eye: During a day/night You may guess the role of a specific player and recieve a yes or no about that guess. This power is charged on day one and is recharged on every day divisible by five. (You can use it one day from 1-4 and one day from 5-9, etc).
Medic: You can cancel out one hit on a player of your choice during the night. The player you blocked will be informed if he was saved. You will be informed if you saved someone. The town will not be told. You cannot use this two nights in a row.
Bodyguard: You can cancel out one hit on a player of your choice during the night. If that player is hit, you will be killed instead. If multiple bodyguards guard a player and fewer than the total bodyguards are killed in duty, bodyguards equal to the killing power being blocked will be killed. (NOTE: THIS IS A LOT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE TERM BODYGUARD MEANT IN OTHER GAMES). You can use this every night.
Good Samaratin: You can cancel out one hit on a player of your choice during the night. The player you attend to will be told that you specifically (by name) chose to protect them that night and whether that saved them. You will be told if you saved them. The town will not be told. You cannot use this two nights in a row.
Elder: You get an extra vote in lynch votes. PM it to me and your extra vote will be marked as "Elder".
Townie: You're green instead of blue. No special powers.
Veteran: It takes two hits to kill you. The hits don't have to be the same night and you have hits blocked by the protective roles.
Vigilante: You can PM me a hit at night (you are a townie and win if the town wins). If you kill a player, clues will point towards you like they would a mafia. This power begins uncharged and recharges on days divisible by five.
Greased Up Mute Guy: Once you get your role, you are not allowed to post in the mafia threads until you are hung by the town. You can't even vote in the vote blog until hung. If the town votes to hang you, you slip out of the noose and regain the ability to speak. You cannot be killed by hanging; all the other ways of death can kill you. Giving a muted player the ability to speak by attempting and failing to hang them gives the town another Town Ability.
TOWN ABILITIES: These are voted on by everyone. The vote must exceed half the living players in order to pass. The town begins with the one town ability to use.
Double Lynch: The town votes on two lynches instead of one. Veterans still only have 1 extra vote. Everyone gets to vote for two people (can't vote for someone twice, unless veteran uses an extra vote on one of two people).
Extra Patrols: The night after this is voted on players of a specific role (specified in vote) are protected from mafia hits. They can still be hit by vigilantes and STDs.
MAFIA ROLES:
Pole Worker: During a night, you may use your seduce power, which can do one of two things at your choosing:
Option one: Use your teasing skills to coax a single player's role out of them.
Option two: Go all the way and give a player an STD. That player will be notified by the morning they have an STD and if they are not guarded by a medic the following night, they will die that following night. The medic will guard the player as usual that night, in addition to curing them.
The seduce power is uncharged at the beginning of the game and is recharged at days divisible by 3.
Mafia: Stay alive and kill off the town while misleading them. You know the other people with mafia roles and collaborate with them. You can't kill other mafia. Your life (and those of the other mafia roles) keeps the mafia kill power higher.
Saboteur: You can role block any player in the game once and then you personally can't block them for the rest of the game. A player can't be role blocked two day/night cycles in a row by seperate players. The player is blocked for the day/night cycle after the night you PM me about it. You can role block beginning night 1 (taking effect day 2) and your power is recharged on days divisible by 5).
Effects:
Detective: Clue check answer goes the wrong way.
Poll Worker: No count is given.
Private Eye: Answer is reversed.
Medic: Can't protect.
Bodyguard: Can't protect - will still die if who they are protecting dies.
Good Samaratin: Can't protect / have someone know they are being protected by them by my PM
Elder: no extra vote during day
Townie: nothing
Veteran: has only one life left for that night
Vigilante: hit doesnt suceed / no clue points to them
Greased Up Mute Guy: dies if hung
In all cases, charges of powers are lost even when they don't go through.
People are not notified until they use their power.
Propogandist: During the night, you can PM me a false clue line of up to 20 words in length that I will insert somewhere in the morning (Day) post. You're on your own to make your diction not stand out from mine and to make sure that you don't try to pack so much into your 20 word limit that its obvious its the fake clue. This power can be used starting the first night (no false clues on the first morning).
Don: You are the leader of the mafia and PM me the list of kills during night after consultation with your underlings. If their alignment is checked, I will respond with the don's preference of roles.
The Don can use one mafia ability during the course of the game:
MAFIA ABILITIES
Overkill: Doubles mafia kill power. Cannot be used until night 5.
Astroglide: Can be used during and after day 1. Permanently makes a single pole worker impervious to one hanging. If the pole worker is hung, the town will be told in the night post that they have an extra ability and that the pole worker was a greased up deaf guy (their name will be in blue in the night post). The greased pole worker will turn up in PE, DT, and PW (Poll Worker) checks as Greased Guy prior to a first hanging and as a Pole Worker after a first hanging. A second hanging will kill the pole worker. The town will not actually get an extra ability but will not be notified until the night post after they vote for one they don't have.
OTHER ROLES:
Traitor: This role wins if the mafia wins but shows up as a townie (OR BLUE ROLE) in role checks. The mafia are not told who this person is and the traitor is not told who the mafia is. There will be ONE OF THESE randomly assigned to a non-mafia role to prevent invincible strategies.
Twin: This role can be combined with other blue or red roles. If one dies for any reason, the other is killed. The twins may be on opposite sides of the conflict.
Village Idiot: This player wins if they get hung. They provide comic relief and extra challenge.
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Germany2896 Posts
http://mafiaspiel.de (You can switch it to english)
Lists a number of mafia variants and roles. The rules probably won't scale to the huge games we are playing here, but some of the roles might serve as an inspiration.
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hmm guess I'll post this for now:
part of the reason mafia games haven't been as all around epic as before is the fact that we try to give too many roles to make people happy. Unfortunately this just isn't going to work - people will have to learn how to play just basic before complaining about roles.
In a classic game, there are lots of plain townies and few blues and more mafia than blue. This makes the game more fair as killing for the mafia requires critical analysis, and Detectives aren't overpowered even with infinite role checks since there are so many greens. This is further balanced since DTs technically can only investigate at NIGHT which stops the Day 1 fiasco we always see (lol) even though I think it's a necessary part of the game.
Next, the Mayor/Pardoner setup. We haven't used this for a while but seriously - it is highly successful because of the activity it promotes. Look at the first 2 mafia games run by Chuiu and you'll notice how those threads revolved around Mayor/Pardoner so much and the games at least seemed epic to most people.
I know the complaint - the inner circle problem and the broken bodyguard plan. This was partially solved by 2 things: Godfather/Don roles which screw DTs rolecheck but not clue check which means clue interpretation is still big, and the Agent of Chaos role which destroys an inner circle also.
Now of course the problem is that if we use all the aforementioned, the DTs can't catch an AoC before elections are over. To somewhat solve this the town can just hold elections on Day 2, and Day 1 will proceed as a normal game day. This way candidates can be 'verified' by chance, which assumes there are enough people running for positions. If we go this route, DT rolechecks have to be limited to make it a tradeoff. I don't like it but it's better than nothing. Otherwise we just go the normal setup.
Millers have also been mentioned plenty of times, especially by Ver which does give the town a chance to have an "inner-circle" but the limit is fixed, and it takes a long time to be effective. I know BC, Chuiu, Caller and others have ideas also that they want to share but I wanted to put this out here before I forgot it all 
Basically let's go back to the very basic mafia. All these extras are just killing the spirit of the game and most importantly - players are not getting better and just complain about who's blue and who's green.
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Sydney2287 Posts
I just quickly want to say, the second game didn't fall apart due to the roles. Yes, it probably (Can't say with certainty, but I think most would agree) was unbalanced but blaming the early end on the roles is stupid. It was pretty clear there were no townie roles, if mafia had thought twice before claiming it they would have realised and the initial list of 8 mafia that we had wouldn't have existed.
I quite liked the concept of everyone having a watered down ability. Maybe not next game, but I hope we revisit it in the future. I think if we do it like the last one, changes I would make for balance would be more mafia killing power, remove the ability for people to 100% confirm someone as a townie through clever use of abilities (I.e. rolechecks, fine, using extra votes, less fine). The town abilities were a nice touch too.
To reiterate what I can see at the bottom of Ace's post, I think it would be best to go back to the formula we had in the first and second games, with only slight alterations (Stuff like, election/no election and following on, body guards or no body guards).
EDIT: Just adding this, I really don't think there should be a plethora of roles. Keeping it simple leads to more discussing the players and their actions, which is what makes mafia interesting imo.
EDIT 2: Could someone please elaborate on the Agent of Chaos role?
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Damn not this again. Just give a chance Bloodycobler to run his game, afaik mafia resurrection was well balanced and quite fun. He asked for a time before starting a new one and caller rushed his game, imo he won the right to run it by making an interesting game. The rest is just the discussion about less blue more green more simplicity etc. vs all degraded blues./mandatory vote or not/village idiot or not/
Rather than start this discussion again (ver made a thread with nice ideas and high participation) we better trust BC and then blame him if the game doesnt turn good 
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On March 03 2009 22:31 Bockit wrote:
EDIT 2: Could someone please elaborate on the Agent of Chaos role?
Agent of Chaos - A devious mafia henchman with the uncanny ability to sabotage those that protect the town leaders. If an AoC is elected to either the Mayor or Pardoner position then the town may be in trouble. At any point during the game, the AoC can choose to sacrifice his or herself at the expense of the town by killing almost all of the remaining Bodyguards. One BG will be randomly allowed to live. However if only 1 BG is alive at the time, that person is killed.
If the AoC is never elected into office then this role has no powers and is just a normal Mafia member.
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If anyone would like some help hosting a game, I would be more than willing to help out!
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I personally thought the most successful games were Mafia 2, Mafia 3, and BC's mafia. I don't think a mayor/bodyguard circle is necessary at all and it really screws over some players who want to be useful but just can't because they aren't in either circle.
That being said, I think the "everyone has a role" idea could have worked but the role numbers were just way off and the mass abilities weren't really balanced.
The one idea I really liked from this last game was the new hatter. I don't think they should be able to suicide the same turn they drop their bomb, but otherwise I found it to be a far more balanced version of the vigilante.
malongo, I felt that BC's game actually favored the town. While I agree that it was probably the most balanced of the games, the mafia basically had a list of almost all of the blues on day 1 and still would have lost if the town remained active.
I agree that it would be best to go back to a relatively simple game. We just need to make sure what we are playing is pretty balanced and let people gain experience with the game. Right now, if you weren't part of a major circle, you probably didn't learn much from the game you just played.
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I think with my ruleset I would add an elder vote to the propagandist.
But lets play just mafia and townies. I'd run it but I think someone else probably wants to do it and mostly I've just been having fun coming up with clue ideas today.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Yeah I say give it a go
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I've been thinking of hosting my own mafia game, though without ever playing on this forum that might be difficult. :p With regular townie vs mafia games though, you would have a problem with over-roling obviously, which makes it harder to balance, but with too many townies, many people just drop out as inactives because they want to be roled.
I think an alternative that has never been tried yet here is separate factions that would need to eliminate each other. With factions, it is possible then for everyone to be roled, since every other enemy faction would also share similar benefits. Though my experience as a spectator sport seem to be that the threads get less busy because people are scared of revealing their role (though that may help mafia). An example that I was thinking of is in the framework of a Song of Ice and Fire:
Factions, the goal of which is to claim the throne and eliminate the opposition, though they strangely do not know their own faction members:
Baratheon
Stark
Lannister
"Mafia": Daenerys Targaryen and others, eliminating the dirty Westeros inhabitants
purely fanboyish, but something like this I feel offers a new dynamic. It would not be essential at first to kill the mafia since a lagging faction might benefit from their services, and at the same time teaming up with the other houses against the mafia might expose you later.
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On March 04 2009 05:38 Syxygy wrote:
I've been thinking of hosting my own mafia game, though without ever playing on this forum that might be difficult. :p With regular townie vs mafia games though, you would have a problem with over-roling obviously, which makes it harder to balance, but with too many townies, many people just drop out as inactives because they want to be roled.
I think an alternative that has never been tried yet here is separate factions that would need to eliminate each other. With factions, it is possible then for everyone to be roled, since every other enemy faction would also share similar benefits. Though my experience as a spectator sport seem to be that the threads get less busy because people are scared of revealing their role (though that may help mafia). An example that I was thinking of is in the framework of a Song of Ice and Fire:
Factions, the goal of which is to claim the throne and eliminate the opposition, though they strangely do not know their own faction members:
Baratheon
Stark
Lannister
"Mafia": Daenerys Targaryen and others, eliminating the dirty Westeros inhabitants
purely fanboyish, but something like this I feel offers a new dynamic. It would not be essential at first to kill the mafia since a lagging faction might benefit from their services, and at the same time teaming up with the other houses against the mafia might expose you later.
Guess it depends on the rules but the game with 2 mafias ended pretty quickly (though that had to do with someone running an irc script that helped him infiltrate our irc).
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In that game though, town was still a majority faction. By splitting the town into smaller factions, each faction would be considered a minority numerical-wise, as each opposing faction is an enemy. The games I've played with townie factions usually lasted pretty long, though a downfall is that inactives really hurt your faction since there are fewer people on your team.
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United States2186 Posts
On March 03 2009 22:31 Bockit wrote:
I just quickly want to say, the second game didn't fall apart due to the roles. Yes, it probably (Can't say with certainty, but I think most would agree) was unbalanced but blaming the early end on the roles is stupid. It was pretty clear there were no townie roles, if mafia had thought twice before claiming it they would have realised and the initial list of 8 mafia that we had wouldn't have existed.
I quite liked the concept of everyone having a watered down ability. Maybe not next game, but I hope we revisit it in the future. I think if we do it like the last one, changes I would make for balance would be more mafia killing power, remove the ability for people to 100% confirm someone as a townie through clever use of abilities (I.e. rolechecks, fine, using extra votes, less fine). The town abilities were a nice touch too.
To reiterate what I can see at the bottom of Ace's post, I think it would be best to go back to the formula we had in the first and second games, with only slight alterations (Stuff like, election/no election and following on, body guards or no body guards).
EDIT: Just adding this, I really don't think there should be a plethora of roles. Keeping it simple leads to more discussing the players and their actions, which is what makes mafia interesting imo.
EDIT 2: Could someone please elaborate on the Agent of Chaos role?
This recent game was horribly balanced with vets (no guaranteed innocents ever), and the format is poor in itself because it eliminates targeting strategy and just promotes mass killing of smart townies. Like Ace said, people just have to realize that everyone can't get a role and play even if they are townie. There's so much to do as townie but everyone is so lazy and apathetic when they are townie, it's ridiculous.
I am fine with mayor/pardonner if there are millers/godfathers. Others don't like the inner circle system (and I can totally understand). But at the same time, with the uncertainty roles there is no way to determine a mayor's alliegance outside of his actions, so there wouldn't be any early inner circles unless the mayor is very clever. I'm not quite sure how applicable those first 2 games are though, as the level of play has dramatically improved. I,e game 1 was pure newbies, while game 2 had good town organization and good mafia infiltration the mafia had no idea of targeting strategy. Mafia in game 3 had a really bad strategy as well, although town did quite well. Games 4 and 5 were quite good but plagued with inactivity. Let's not go into game 6.
Pyrr the effort is appreciated but you are making the classic mistake of putting in too many new roles. The best approach is to take the classic formula, keep it simple, and slowly add things on once people are used to it.
Anyway if you guys want to throw out more ideas/discuss on merits of mayor/pardonner with godfather + millers (agent of chaos is too direct imo) go ahead. We'll be finalizing things in the next couple of days.
Here are the two setups that seem to have the most merit right now (just putting them in written form go ahead and comment):
1) Mayor/Pardonner (1st day election)
Say 50 people:
8 mafia (4 KP, 3KP at 5, 2 KP min). 1 Godfather is included. Shows up as a role of his choice to a rolecheck (not vet) but is not immune to cluechecks.
2 DTs
2 Vets
2 Medics
3 Millers
3 Bodyguards
30 Townspeople.
Mayor can order a double lynch twice.
Pardonner can pardon someone twice.
DTs: Have infinite rolechecks (must wait until first night to use) and Infinite Cluechecks (to get the godfather). These take the form of 'link X person to X codename yes/no' (normal way is pretty awful but could keep that if ppl wanted it).
Vets: +1 Life
Medics: Normal
Millers: Townsperson that shows up as mafia to a rolecheck. They do not know that they are a miller.
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2) No offices
8 mafia (4 KP, 3KP at 5, 2 KP min). 1 Godfather (same).
2 DTs (same)
2 Vets
2 Medics
36 Townspeople
Town can vote for a double lynch twice
Additional possibilities:
Miller: Same. But I'm not sure if its necessary and might be overkill (would just be 1-2).
Mad Hatter (from this current game): Can place 1 bomb on anyone at night. After the bomb has been placed for 1 day on the same target, they can suicide, killing themselves and the target the bomb is on. (Would have 1 probably, mayyybee 2)
I'm not quite sure on balance of mafia numbers and KP (Blues are getting reduced heavily so mafia must be reduced appropriated too).
Goals are:
1) to reduce the impact of first few days by having a more stabilized KP on both sides.
2) Eliminate the ability for the mafia to autowin by killing every blue immediately. DTs are strong but they are not necessary to win, unlike vigilantes.
3) Make rolechecks not absolute but strong and reward DTs that can stay alive.
I could see either of these formats working. Remember, keep it simple and fun. Uncertainty and simplicity are the root of fun in these games.
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I think I like number 2 because being a miller would suck.
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Actually I think 1 would be better because with reduced KP it would help to have the town have a bit more hesitancy to kill and would force the town to focus on the clues. I want to see a game where the town debates more about the clues than some foolproof plan of organization.
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I do like the idea of no offices, though, because it would keep townie backchannel organization from being too easy / powerful / alienating to greens.
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only townies vs mafia.
maybe some town abilities:
1.) sanctuary: not for classes, but for certain people. might seem useless, but you never know: as the game goes on, certain people will gain more and more power. 3x per game, cannot be used on consecutive terms.
2.) double lynch: can be used every other turn
50 townies vs 10 mafia
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unfortunately you can't do only townies vs mafia. With no DTs and no medics the mafia will almost always win. They literally have nothing to do except kill smart players as there is no risk in failing and nothing to break their behavior.
Now to explain also why Mayor/Pardoner works so well:
with this setup, the only guaranteed innocents are the Bodyguards. Like Ver said this is generally terrible for the game as a guaranteed innocent just gets heaps of protection and all the role info. However with BGs the difference is they actually can't come out because they protect 2 high profile players, and they don't know each other anyway unless the Mayor tells them. This kind of ideology should be the basis of any future major game play changes: roles that are crucial but not powerful on their own. They ARE important but they actually don't have any "real" power. I think this would go a long way to solving this "Im mad I didn't get a role" mentality.
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On March 04 2009 06:58 Ace wrote:
unfortunately you can't do only townies vs mafia. With no DTs and no medics the mafia will almost always win. They literally have nothing to do except kill smart players as there is no risk in failing and nothing to break their behavior.
Now to explain also why Mayor/Pardoner works so well:
with this setup, the only guaranteed innocents are the Bodyguards. Like Ver said this is generally terrible for the game as a guaranteed innocent just gets heaps of protection and all the role info. However with BGs the difference is they actually can't come out because they protect 2 high profile players, and they don't know each other anyway unless the Mayor tells them. This kind of ideology should be the basis of any future major game play changes: roles that are crucial but not powerful on their own. They ARE important but they actually don't have any "real" power. I think this would go a long way to solving this "Im mad I didn't get a role" mentality.
Problem is I think we have already established that the best way to play a game like that is for the mayor to give all BGs info about all the other BGs. If they don't, a BG comes out and they lynch the mayor. I thought it might be somewhat interesting to have 1 BG really be mafia (and not actually protect anyone) but still be on the list. At the very least, it would slow down BG plans and force the town to be a lot more careful.
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United States2186 Posts
On March 04 2009 07:09 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 06:58 Ace wrote:
unfortunately you can't do only townies vs mafia. With no DTs and no medics the mafia will almost always win. They literally have nothing to do except kill smart players as there is no risk in failing and nothing to break their behavior.
Now to explain also why Mayor/Pardoner works so well:
with this setup, the only guaranteed innocents are the Bodyguards. Like Ver said this is generally terrible for the game as a guaranteed innocent just gets heaps of protection and all the role info. However with BGs the difference is they actually can't come out because they protect 2 high profile players, and they don't know each other anyway unless the Mayor tells them. This kind of ideology should be the basis of any future major game play changes: roles that are crucial but not powerful on their own. They ARE important but they actually don't have any "real" power. I think this would go a long way to solving this "Im mad I didn't get a role" mentality. Problem is I think we have already established that the best way to play a game like that is for the mayor to give all BGs info about all the other BGs. If they don't, a BG comes out and they lynch the mayor. I thought it might be somewhat interesting to have 1 BG really be mafia (and not actually protect anyone) but still be on the list. At the very least, it would slow down BG plans and force the town to be a lot more careful.
Yes the BG plan I had in game 4 gets around the godfather. That is why the number of BGs needs to be very low (2 might be more appropriate even) so that it is really risky to do so. But that may still not be enough you are correct. Thanks for bringing that up I had forgotten entirely about it.
The 1 BG being mafia thing is interesting. I like it a lot. We should probably make it 4 BGs though, with 3 being selected from townspeople and 1 from the mafia. Stuff like this is very good.
Also, keep the role #'s unknown yes? I think this is great for both sides.
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go classic...
DT: clue check/role check
PE: vote check
Medic
Vigi
Veteran: 2 lives
Mafia
Godfather
Suicide Bomber
Something similar to this....
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If you want to keep the role #s unknown, we can't make up definitive numbers of each role to recommend unless we decide not to play. It isn't fair for some players to know role numbers but not all of them.
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I like the one bodyguard being mafia thing too if it's added in with Godfather. That breaks the bodyguard plan both ways, but still encourages it's use but way more hoops to jump through.
I think you might have to keep role numbers revealed if using Mayor.
An alternate way could be using Chuiu/BC system:
All the role amounts are hidden. Town can however vote 2 or 3 times a game to reveal the roles of all the people that have died so far.
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On March 04 2009 08:03 Ace wrote:
I like the one bodyguard being mafia thing too if it's added in with Godfather. That breaks the bodyguard plan both ways, but still encourages it's use but way more hoops to jump through.
Wow that is an EVIL thought. Godfather bodyguard? I think my head just exploded
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wait no no lol...I mean the Godfather role and a mafia bodyguard.
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Ok, as general thought.
say 50-60 players again like normal.
Mayor/Pardoner
4 bodyguards(randomly chosen 3 from all townies(ie blue could end up as bg as well) and 1 random mafia that isnt godfather or agent of chaos if hes in game.
10 mafia
10-15 blues (medic, detective, vig)
rest as greens.
No need for new roles. The question comes down to who runs this in the end.
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How about
60 people
Mayor
Pardoner
4 Bodyguards (3 towny/blue / 1 mafia that's not GF)
9 Mafia
1 Godfather
0 AoC (Godfather makes more interesting mayor anyway, although it didn't help us much in Ace's Mafia World)
1 Miller to be the GF's foil
2 DT
2 Medic
2 Vigi
2 Vet
2 PE
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^^^ sounds about right, but I think you need more than 1 miller.
Probably don't want to try 60 people either. Also we'd need to get a lot of the vet players and players from the first 2 games to return so it balances out "top suspected" people.
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On March 04 2009 08:46 Ace wrote:
^^^ sounds about right, but I think you need more than 1 miller.
Probably don't want to try 60 people either. Also we'd need to get a lot of the vet players and players from the first 2 games to return so it balances out "top suspected" people.
That's why I added the greased up mute guy to the role list in my original post. There's got to be a better way to do this but here's part of my intent for that role: The most confirmable blue (although its not totally confirmable) would be the greased guy and it would be the hardest for the mafia to fake (and they couldn't fake it for long). This could make first hanging kind of like a mayoral election instead of hanging whoever gets linked to an errant clue because some people will try to figure out who is the greased guy from the participation. This means the town will have a motivation to hang any totally inactive people, townies will have motivation to post at least at first, and mafia will have reason to kill silent townies instead of focusing on the smartest people. But this role wouldn't actually do that because as soon as any player posts once they aren't the greased guy and mafia still might be better going after good players.
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The reason people get linked off of random first day clues is just sheer luck, or mob mentality taking over. No role is gonna stop that from happening, and technically with a large game somebody is bound to die the first day on the lynch through random voting anyway.
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On March 04 2009 09:07 Ace wrote:
The reason people get linked off of random first day clues is just sheer luck, or mob mentality taking over. No role is gonna stop that from happening, and technically with a large game somebody is bound to die the first day on the lynch through random voting anyway.
I'm not worried about that, I just thought this would give the town an interesting choice where they could lynch someone in order to make them a leader or try to kill a mafia day one. Also I'm trying to find a role or some way to make bad / inactive players get killed before good ones but perhaps that is for the medics.
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Question 1: I don't expect anyone to answer this but was it just a coincidence that there were no vets last game or were there smurfs?
Back to the main discussion, I think we're going too far in trying to accomodate the game to fit what we THINK will happen in the next game. I think its pretty clear that we shouldn't have a game of all blues or a game of all greens. But I think that complicating the process by having a mafia in a mayor/pardonner system is a bit too much. First off, assume the mayor is town. Then we have a 1/4 list of people who are mafia in the bodyguard circle. Using the infinite DT rolecheck, you check them all, then root out the mafia member. Then you've got a 3 bodyguard + mayor + pardonner circle with one dead mafia. Basically with this system if the mafia dont get the mayor position, then they've already lost one member.
In the past, I thought the point of the mayor system was to have a role to call double lynches without fear of the double lynch caller dying off soon (if you had some other random blue role with the power to call double lynch). The mayor pardoner system in the past has been abused to a certain extent I believe. And while yes, it could make for good games with mafia infiltration, it really alienates a lot of people. Which is why I liked Chuiu's idea of the town option for double lynch. Although I'd probably make it ONLY one option (double lynch) and make it effective maybe 4 times per game. Keep in mind that depending on the mafia:town ratio and the mafia KP: town KP ratio, double lynches vary in importance.
For the activity, I thought we were going to use mandatory voting (abstentions permitted) with modkills on anyone who didn't vote. Probably something we should look into this game.
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There could end up being a miller bodyguard. I don't think DTs should be infinite either and it would take time to do that either way.
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the point of Mayor/Pardoner wasn't only for double lynch - it was a focal point to start the game. The elections cause so much discussion it makes the game intense from the get go. Reason being everyone wants the Bodyguards for night time immunity (Mafia safe from Vigis).Double lynch was actually something I rarely remember being used much at all as it was really secondary.
If you give mafia 1 bodyguard and town has a innocent Mayor that just trades the DT checks for time. Sure, the town could end up with an inner circle but it will take TIME, DTs revealing themselves and all kinds of hoops to jump through so that it isn't as easy as before. That's what we're trying to do here - keep the game balanced, interesting, and make as many strategies viable. The loss of 1 mafia member for the possible DT commotion is well worth it in most cases.
modkills are good.
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On March 04 2009 09:20 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
There could end up being a miller bodyguard. I don't think DTs should be infinite either and it would take time to do that either way.
I think Infinite DT checks are acceptable if we're going to go with 2 DTs for a 50 person game as suggested in previous posts. Its not like they're realistically going to survive for too long anyway.
On March 04 2009 09:23 Ace wrote:
the point of Mayor/Pardoner wasn't only for double lynch - it was a focal point to start the game. The elections cause so much discussion it makes the game intense from the get go. Reason being everyone wants the Bodyguards for night time immunity (Mafia safe from Vigis).Double lynch was actually something I rarely remember being used much at all as it was really secondary.
If you give mafia 1 bodyguard and town has a innocent Mayor that just trades the DT checks for time. Sure, the town could end up with an inner circle but it will take TIME, DTs revealing themselves and all kinds of hoops to jump through so that it isn't as easy as before. That's what we're trying to do here - keep the game balanced, interesting, and make as many strategies viable. The loss of 1 mafia member for the possible DT commotion is well worth it in most cases.
modkills are good.
True, it is a focal point to start the game, but it really is not based on any solid information. I'm not sure if giving the game a starting point is worth the trouble of another potential inner circle. And if you introduce mafia bodyguards, that decreases the influence the mayor has in "starting the game" since the chaos/uncertainty will taint his power. The mayor/pardoner setup might be viable, but I think we should explore other options too. I just don't feel comfortable with a mafia bodyguard right now. Perhaps creating another role to cause uncertainty? Like a traitor for example. Or a miller.
Double lynch probably wasn't necessary with vigis, but since I know there is talk about not having vigis, double lynch is crucial to allow the town to be competitive with mafia even if they haven't killed any mafia for the first 1/2 days
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How? The Mayor doesn't need the Bodyguards to do anything. He can ignore them all just because he knows 1 of them might be mafia, so he doesn't have to tell them anything.
When the game is large you need double lynch and vigis, but little of both for the town to have any realistic chance if both sides are even skill wise.
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The mayor doesn't need the bodyguards to do anything, but not having a central leadership with a reliable bodyguard pool limits the amount of activity stimulation that the regular mayor system has.
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On March 04 2009 09:42 Ace wrote:
How? The Mayor doesn't need the Bodyguards to do anything. He can ignore them all just because he knows 1 of them might be mafia, so he doesn't have to tell them anything.
When the game is large you need double lynch and vigis, but little of both for the town to have any realistic chance if both sides are even skill wise.
this man speaks the truth
ideally we want a set up similar to that of mafia 2/3.
I suggest the following:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
An Executioner: (also elected). May end voting at whatever time he chooses, once.
4 Bodyguards for the above. The mayor PMs a list of bodyguards that he wants to have to the game host.
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Boondock Saints. May kill two people, once per night, starting night 2.
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad).
This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found.
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Sydney2287 Posts
I'm really liking Ver's suggestion #1 as a format for the next game, with the inclusion of the bodyguard discussion we've been having over the past page. That is:
1) Mayor/Pardonner (1st day election)
Say 50 people:
8 mafia (4 KP, 3KP at 5, 2 KP min). 1 Godfather is included. Shows up as a role of his choice to a rolecheck (not vet) but is not immune to cluechecks.
2 DTs
2 Vets
2 Medics
3 Millers
3 Bodyguards
30 Townspeople.
Mayor can order a double lynch twice.
Pardonner can pardon someone twice.
DTs: Have infinite rolechecks (must wait until first night to use) and Infinite Cluechecks (to get the godfather). These take the form of 'link X person to X codename yes/no' (normal way is pretty awful but could keep that if ppl wanted it).
Vets: +1 Life
Medics: Normal
Millers: Townsperson that shows up as mafia to a rolecheck. They do not know that they are a miller.
That with the change that bodyguards can be selected from mafia or town. I don't see why it should be made a constant ratio of mafia bodyguards:townie bodyguards or even that there is a guaranteed mafia in there. The possibility that any of the bodyguards could be mafia or millers should be enough to disrupt the BG plan, while allowing to a certain extent viability on the condition that enough hoops are jumped through.
On March 04 2009 06:07 Ver wrote:
This recent game was horribly balanced with vets (no guaranteed innocents ever), and the format is poor in itself because it eliminates targeting strategy and just promotes mass killing of smart townies. Like Ace said, people just have to realize that everyone can't get a role and play even if they are townie. There's so much to do as townie but everyone is so lazy and apathetic when they are townie, it's ridiculous.
You're entirely right here, I just liked the (potential) variance it brought to the game, I think if it were to be revisited down the track (Everyone with a role), the roles need to be watered down even further, with more discussion on the roles so we can make sure something like the vet plan we had last game can't happen again.
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On March 04 2009 10:07 Incognito wrote:
The mayor doesn't need the bodyguards to do anything, but not having a central leadership with a reliable bodyguard pool limits the amount of activity stimulation that the regular mayor system has.
what do you mean? The mayor can just ignore the bodyguards all game. Whether they are mafia or not, unless all the real ones die he isn't in trouble. It doesn't mess anything up. Remember the bodyguards don't know who each other are, the Mayor holds all that info. The leadership is still centralized on him.
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bump for people whom haven't seen what i said XD
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On March 04 2009 10:08 Caller wrote:
4 Bodyguards for the above. The mayor PMs a list of bodyguards that he wants to have to the game host.
I like this idea.
On March 04 2009 10:14 Ace wrote:
what do you mean? The mayor can just ignore the bodyguards all game. Whether they are mafia or not, unless all the real ones die he isn't in trouble. It doesn't mess anything up. Remember the bodyguards don't know who each other are, the Mayor holds all that info. The leadership is still centralized on him.
Yes the mayor can ignore the bodyguards. Yes the plan is technically not flawed. But does a single person (mayor) have the same effect on stimulating activity alone as opposed to a mayor with a bodyguard circle?
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Of course he does. Notice in Mafia 2 none of the bodyguards were really public except Caller. Whether the Mayor has a circle or not, as long as the person seems to know what they are doing people will follow them.
And even so, the town doesn't have to listen to the Mayor. Like I said the main point of it is the 2 protected spots that people will fight over.
Mayor shouldn't get to choose his bodyguards, that's just broken.
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"Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad).
This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found."
-I really like this idea because it gives townies a power in that they might get a clue they need to share - also gives mafia more fun because they can fake clues and DTs can only ask if that clue points to someone and they just get a no, not that the clue is fake.
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True. Especially if the mayor is mafia. Well then at least make the bodyguards completely random. It would make it much more interesting.
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On March 04 2009 10:40 Ace wrote:
Of course he does. Notice in Mafia 2 none of the bodyguards were really public except Caller. Whether the Mayor has a circle or not, as long as the person seems to know what they are doing people will follow them.
And even so, the town doesn't have to listen to the Mayor. Like I said the main point of it is the 2 protected spots that people will fight over.
Mayor shouldn't get to choose his bodyguards, that's just broken.
Why shouldn't mayor get to choose bodyguards? It's the first day and he can't trust anybody. It's better than picking x town and one mafia, because then the mayor basically has a 1/4 votecheck. At the same time, guaranteeing bodyguards results in bodyguard plan. By letting the mayor pick bodyguards, it gives them choices: town mayors may pick large groups of mafia by accident, or pick pure town (nobody knows). In addition, mafia mayors may choose to pick mafia as bodyguards as well, to prevent vigilante hits against him.
Plus its more realistic: wouldn't u pick ur most trusted people over some randomly generated group?
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On March 04 2009 10:40 Ace wrote:
Of course he does. Notice in Mafia 2 none of the bodyguards were really public except Caller. Whether the Mayor has a circle or not, as long as the person seems to know what they are doing people will follow them.
And even so, the town doesn't have to listen to the Mayor. Like I said the main point of it is the 2 protected spots that people will fight over.
Mayor shouldn't get to choose his bodyguards, that's just broken.
Why is it broken to choose bodyguards day 1?
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On March 04 2009 10:42 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
"Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad).
This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found."
-I really like this idea because it gives townies a power in that they might get a clue they need to share - also gives mafia more fun because they can fake clues and DTs can only ask if that clue points to someone and they just get a no, not that the clue is fake.
at the same time mafia can fake deaths to hide people, i.e. they use 4 hits one night and then next day fake a clue saying "bob is dead." Bob is mafia and still alive. XDXDXD
Problem is, if they get caught, then they get screwed 
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Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard?
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On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard?
What's wrong with that?
They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic.
So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic.
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On March 04 2009 10:44 Caller wrote:
In addition, mafia mayors may choose to pick mafia as bodyguards as well, to prevent vigilante hits against him.
Plus its more realistic: wouldn't u pick ur most trusted people over some randomly generated group?
Maybe I shoulda explained this whoops.
A Mafia bodyguard is literally FAKE - a vigi hit will go through.
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On March 04 2009 10:08 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 09:42 Ace wrote:
How? The Mayor doesn't need the Bodyguards to do anything. He can ignore them all just because he knows 1 of them might be mafia, so he doesn't have to tell them anything.
When the game is large you need double lynch and vigis, but little of both for the town to have any realistic chance if both sides are even skill wise. this man speaks the truth ideally we want a set up similar to that of mafia 2/3. I suggest the following: A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes. An Executioner: (also elected). May end voting at whatever time he chooses, once. 4 Bodyguards for the above. The mayor PMs a list of bodyguards that he wants to have to the game host. 2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck. 4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit. 3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone. 2 Boondock Saints. May kill two people, once per night, starting night 2. 23 Townies All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3). 10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up. Nobody knows who died except for the people that died: they get a PM. One of the clues that may be given is the discovery of a dead person (oldest kills first b/c they smell bad). This requires that townies contribute, both to see whom is not dead and also to give out clues they may find regarding dead and so on. However, the list of alive and dead will only reflect those whom are lynched (as those one can obviously tell are dead). However, lynching a dead person results in the lynching of the next vote person, and so on, until there is a tie reached or no more people are found.
I think boondock saints are a bit OP. Unless one random mafia gets a clue about each hit?
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United States2186 Posts
On March 04 2009 09:14 Incognito wrote:
Question 1: I don't expect anyone to answer this but was it just a coincidence that there were no vets last game or were there smurfs?
Back to the main discussion, I think we're going too far in trying to accomodate the game to fit what we THINK will happen in the next game. I think its pretty clear that we shouldn't have a game of all blues or a game of all greens. But I think that complicating the process by having a mafia in a mayor/pardonner system is a bit too much. First off, assume the mayor is town. Then we have a 1/4 list of people who are mafia in the bodyguard circle. Using the infinite DT rolecheck, you check them all, then root out the mafia member. Then you've got a 3 bodyguard + mayor + pardonner circle with one dead mafia. Basically with this system if the mafia dont get the mayor position, then they've already lost one member.
In the past, I thought the point of the mayor system was to have a role to call double lynches without fear of the double lynch caller dying off soon (if you had some other random blue role with the power to call double lynch). The mayor pardoner system in the past has been abused to a certain extent I believe. And while yes, it could make for good games with mafia infiltration, it really alienates a lot of people. Which is why I liked Chuiu's idea of the town option for double lynch. Although I'd probably make it ONLY one option (double lynch) and make it effective maybe 4 times per game. Keep in mind that depending on the mafia:town ratio and the mafia KP: town KP ratio, double lynches vary in importance.
For the activity, I thought we were going to use mandatory voting (abstentions permitted) with modkills on anyone who didn't vote. Probably something we should look into this game.
Mandatory voting + pre-planned abstentions are good. I like. It shouldn't be too unforgiving though if the person is normally active but more of a system to prevent people from not caring if they get townie.
I think you underestimate the situation the 1 mafia BG + millers + godfather puts the town in though Incognito. No information is certain at all in that scenario (which is great!). That's not easy to clean out at all and will require some shrewd thinking to even do it. Quite likely it could be better if the town just ignored the offices and focused elsewhere. When I look at it right now I don't see any obvious answer and my approach would be to trick someone into revealing their hand which would be hard to pull off. That imo is a huge part of mafia (that we don't go into deep enough), which is why I'm so interested in it. Will the town decide to not care about the offices? Will they go through the trouble to clean out the rats nest? It offers a lot of possibilities for both sides and is a format I could see being used repeatedly. I think it has a lot of stimulation, since the town has to make a choice right away how to handle it. Bockit's idea of having BG's be randomly selected from everyone is great as well. If the town gets lucky and finds the right mafia BG...well they can just end their cleaning. But if they don't know how many there are...
Basically the main thing we need to address is: Mayor/Pardonner or no offices. Let's decide this first, since everything else derives from this decision. I originally wanted no offices since it promoted an inner circle but with godfather + millers + unknown alliegances of BGs (I think that blues shouldn't be BG though yes? Otherwise killing them is too devastating), I am starting to like this a lot.
Caller, the problem with that, among other things (being able to choose bgs, 2 hit vigis, crazy broken executioner, votechecks), such a system of death would confuse people and make them less willing to play at normal level (like Ace's game). It's interesting, but I don't think adding too many new things at once is a good idea. Especially when our past 3 games have been flops more or less, we need a solid one that will go well.
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On March 04 2009 10:50 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:44 Caller wrote:
In addition, mafia mayors may choose to pick mafia as bodyguards as well, to prevent vigilante hits against him.
Plus its more realistic: wouldn't u pick ur most trusted people over some randomly generated group? Maybe I shoulda explained this whoops. A Mafia bodyguard is literally FAKE - a vigi hit will go through.
even so, picking a mafia bodyguard might be useful anyways, like as a neutral reason for a mafia mayor to be like "oh that's weird" or maybe in order to fake mafia as other bodyguards, i.e. to have 4 bodyguards + 2 "mafia" bodyguards (to further cause chaos, which always favors mafia)
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On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic.
:/
Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard.
DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role.
The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard.
That's pretty bad don't you think?
Or what happens if the Mayor is scum?
The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner.
Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen.
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I think we should take Caller's idea of pmed clues though because any angst about being a townie will be solved. 2 hit vigis are OP. Executioner is maybe OP but nobody ever gives a fuck about the pardoner's power except day 1 strategery so eh... I still don't understand why letting Mayor choose bodyguards is OP.
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On March 04 2009 10:51 Ver wrote:
Caller, the problem with that, among other things (being able to choose bgs, 2 hit vigis, crazy broken executioner, votechecks), such a system of death would confuse people and make them less willing to play at normal level (like Ace's game). It's interesting, but I don't think adding too many new things at once is a good idea. Especially when our past 3 games have been flops more or less, we need a solid one that will go well.
On the contrary, I think a reason why our last games have been flops is because we use the same old song and dance each game. As a result, everybody expects "oh, army of blues will win it for us." By turning the tables, we could have a more interesting game as people will be like "ooh, this is new, we have to adapt!" i.e. Mafia 2 was a great game, but it was relatively new (Mafia 1 kind of flopped because we were unfamiliar with the game as a whole). By keeping the idea of Mafia the same, but by creating a new aspect, I think people will get more into it.
The executioner/bg/vigi/votecheck things can be fixed. But I think that we could get more townie involvement this way, as well as create new ways for mafia to cause chaos instead of just 1a2a3a4a5aing.
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I dont understand why you would want fake deaths and PM'd clues...
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On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen.
Innocent mayor could just as easily choose a mafia BG who then fakes being a DT by getting lucky saying the Mayor's original role.
If mayor is scum he can leak it to some townie who earns his trust.
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On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen.
First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town.
Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways.
And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor?
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On March 04 2009 10:58 Ace wrote:
I dont understand why you would want fake deaths and PM'd clues...
fake deaths discourage townies and vigis from targetting those if they're mafia. Likewise, fake deaths can be used to hide blues from mafia. The only guaranteed sign of life is if people can talk (thus talking would be strictly enforced). PMd clues force townies to participate, otherwise not all of the possible information is available which screws over town. And Pmd clues allow mafia to BS shit.
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On March 04 2009 10:58 Ace wrote:
I dont understand why you would want fake deaths and PM'd clues...
Yeah I'm not sold on fake deaths yet. But I think PMed clues will force people to talk about the clues more and keep even greens logging in to discuss and check their inbox. I think it will also get mafia talking and actually having to take risks to try to incriminate others. I think we can still have a day post while requiring cooperation among the town to put together the full picture.
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On March 04 2009 10:59 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. Innocent mayor could just as easily choose a mafia BG who then fakes being a DT by getting lucky saying the Mayor's original role. If mayor is scum he can leak it to some townie who earns his trust.
Why would a mafia bg even fake being a blue? That would just be incredibly stupid.
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On March 04 2009 11:02 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:59 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. Innocent mayor could just as easily choose a mafia BG who then fakes being a DT by getting lucky saying the Mayor's original role. If mayor is scum he can leak it to some townie who earns his trust. Why would a mafia bg even fake being a blue? That would just be incredibly stupid.
LOL MANDALOR
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On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor?
1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything?
2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal.
3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all.
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On March 04 2009 11:01 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:58 Ace wrote:
I dont understand why you would want fake deaths and PM'd clues...
fake deaths discourage townies and vigis from targetting those if they're mafia. Likewise, fake deaths can be used to hide blues from mafia. The only guaranteed sign of life is if people can talk (thus talking would be strictly enforced). PMd clues force townies to participate, otherwise not all of the possible information is available which screws over town. And Pmd clues allow mafia to BS shit.
...
why would you want to hide blues from mafia and allow mafia to directly effect a critical part of the game they shouldn't have control over?
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Your replies make me smile Ace 
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Caller, my biggest problem with your idea is just that it is too fancy. What we need right now is a very simple game. Look at this last game: the most experienced player the mafia had was ulszz.
From: Teejing
Subject: Re: mafia 4 curiosity
Date: 3/4/09 09:21
nah,we were 100% beginners xD. I had to PM some guys myself to get some information myself. So yea, ommunication was not existence.
Your idea might be fun to play with. However, I don't think it is appropriate for the skill level we have right now.
Btw, I am specifically referring to the no death reveal.
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On March 04 2009 11:05 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:01 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:58 Ace wrote:
I dont understand why you would want fake deaths and PM'd clues...
fake deaths discourage townies and vigis from targetting those if they're mafia. Likewise, fake deaths can be used to hide blues from mafia. The only guaranteed sign of life is if people can talk (thus talking would be strictly enforced). PMd clues force townies to participate, otherwise not all of the possible information is available which screws over town. And Pmd clues allow mafia to BS shit. ... why would you want to hide blues from mafia and allow mafia to directly effect a critical part of the game they shouldn't have control over?
Hide blues from mafia like this:
ex. It's night 2. Instead of using both vigilante hits, you pretend to use both and actually use one.
One of the vigilante hits actually kills tim. Town decides to "fake" hit Jim.
Bob reports a clue that says that Jim, a DT, was killed, and that his role was townie. Another one says that Tim, a townie, was killed.
Mafia can choose to waste hits on them. But if they're actually dead, the hit is wasted, and so they may not bother targetting them. In the meantime, Jim is happily using all of his role and cluechecks while keeping dl and giving the info to a trustworthy person.
Likewise, fake death mafia: Mafia fakes a death. Mafia member claims Rob the townie (actually mafia)is dead. That person is unlikely to be targetted by DTs, Vigs, or lynch votes. Thus, he can maintain KP while at the same time have an excuse for inactivity. However, the backlash is if initial mafia is revealed or compromised, then Rob is in deep shit.
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Sydney2287 Posts
On March 04 2009 10:51 Ver wrote:
Basically the main thing we need to address is: Mayor/Pardonner or no offices. Let's decide this first, since everything else derives from this decision. I originally wanted no offices since it promoted an inner circle but with godfather + millers + unknown alliegances of BGs (I think that blues shouldn't be BG though yes? Otherwise killing them is too devastating), I am starting to like this a lot.
Ok here's a poll:
Poll: Ellected Offices?
(Vote): Yes (Mayor/Pardoner)
(Vote): No
I didn't include Mayor/Executioner because the goal here should be to return to vanilla for a bit.
If we have offices I think that the people that should be eligible for bodyguards would be townies, mafia (Not sure about godfather) and millers. For most of the reasons that have been stated in the thread so far.
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On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all.
Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT?
How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller?
If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked?
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And the executioner is far too strong. Say the mayor is town but the executioner is mafia. This is what I would do as the executioner: wait for the day 1 post. "I vote for Mayor" "I close the voting"
Sure I'll be lynched on day 2. However, I wasted a lynch, removed all possibility of double lynch, and screwed over the town's organization.
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On March 04 2009 11:09 Qatol wrote:
Caller, my biggest problem with your idea is just that it is too fancy. What we need right now is a very simple game. Look at this last game: the most experienced player the mafia had was ulszz.
From: Teejing
Subject: Re: mafia 4 curiosity
Date: 3/4/09 09:21
nah,we were 100% beginners xD. I had to PM some guys myself to get some information myself. So yea, ommunication was not existence.
Your idea might be fun to play with. However, I don't think it is appropriate for the skill level we have right now.
Btw, I am specifically referring to the no death reveal.
Again, this new skill level will put everybody on an equal footing. Everybody has not played with this new type before. That means old strategies won't work and new ideas may. Thus, newbs and experts are on a more equal footing than just everybody around waiting for BC and Ace and Mikeymoo and Camlito and all the other good players to spread their gospel. It also prevents Folca moments as people are on new footing, this gives them a chance to say something without being dismissed as naive or worse yet, mafia.
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On March 04 2009 11:13 Qatol wrote:
And the executioner is far too strong. Say the mayor is town but the executioner is mafia. This is what I would do as the executioner: wait for the day 1 post. "I vote for Mayor" "I close the voting"
Sure I'll be lynched on day 2. However, I wasted a lynch, removed all possibility of double lynch, and screwed over the town's organization.
Yeah executioner is probably op, but that can be fixed.
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On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked?
1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL?
The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it.
2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good.
3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable.
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A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff.
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On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable.
1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG?
2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt!
3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause.
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o wait, Ver has his Millers show up as Mafia. I didn't realize that.
So to change part 2 of my previous answer:
Even if the DT investigates the Mayor and figures him as mafia(but he is really the Miller) then he dies anyway. He flips town, o well. You lose double lynches and stuff but you had to take a risk that you don't have a Mafia Mayor. Either way in this situation as the DT you have to speak up.
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On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff.
How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said.
Still I think it's better. Run with it.
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On March 04 2009 11:32 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable. 1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG? 2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt! 3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause.
1.) caller you're not making sense. If the DT is a BG...why would he be guessing?
2.) We are talking about REAL Godfather roles. Godfather appears Innocent Townie, not as whatever he wants.
3.) Not at all. If the Mayor is scum and he wants to kill off all his bodyguards to get to the Pardoner he uses up valuable KP in doing so. This is a lot different than a legit DT getting himself added to the kill list because he got fucked over. Remember DTs generally DO NOT want to be out in the open. Being a bodyguard puts him under the eye of someone else.
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On March 04 2009 11:35 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff. How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said. Still I think it's better. Run with it.
Maybe some killed would randomly be left off the day post and left to the townies... I think the game master could kind of on the fly balance depending on what roles were left etc.
My problem with this is townies + millers = 25
Mafia = 10
That seems a bit high chance for multiple mafia to become BGs but maybe not.
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On March 04 2009 11:38 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:32 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable. 1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG? 2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt! 3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause. 1.) caller you're not making sense. If the DT is a BG...why would he be guessing? 2.) We are talking about REAL Godfather roles. Godfather appears Innocent Townie, not as whatever he wants. 3.) Not at all. If the Mayor is scum and he wants to kill off all his bodyguards to get to the Pardoner he uses up valuable KP in doing so. This is a lot different than a legit DT getting himself added to the kill list because he got fucked over. Remember DTs generally DO NOT want to be out in the open. Being a bodyguard puts him under the eye of someone else.
1. I mean checks mayor in general.
2. Even so, there will still be doubt.
3. The DT does not have to reveal himself as a DT to mayor, even if mayor is scum.
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United States2186 Posts
On March 04 2009 11:38 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:32 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:27 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 11:11 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:04 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:59 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:53 Ace wrote:On March 04 2009 10:50 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 10:49 Ace wrote:
Remember all the town members get their roles before the mayor election.
What happens if the Mayor accidentally chooses a DT or Medic as a bodyguard? What's wrong with that? They would just get BG powers in addition to being a DT/Medic. So if they die it'd count as a dead BG and DT/Medic. :/ Innocent Mayor accidentally chooses a DT as bodyguard. DT figures out Mayor is legit by role checking his original role. The Mayor doesn't have to guess about the DT being legit because his role check is true and he's a bodyguard. That's pretty bad don't you think? Or what happens if the Mayor is scum? The DT is fucked because what can he say? His death while somewhat noble also fucks over a possibly innocent pardoner. Bodyguards are plain townies for a reason. Mayor shouldn't ever get to choose his bodyguards especially if what you guys are saying is to avoid an inner circle - that's just begging for one to happen. First of all, Mayor could be GF. So DT would probably not say anything if its town. Second of all, if mayor is scum, pardonner would be fucked anyways. And what's to stop a non-BG DT from doing this, or for a mafia to fake DT to Mayor? 1.) If the Mayor is GF and the DT figures it out why would he not say anything? 2.) If the Mayor is scum the Pardoner is not fucked. If all the Mayors bodyguards start dying off SURELY you don't think the town is gonna sit around and be like oh that's just normal. 3.) Why oh why would a mafia bodyguard FAKE being a DT? That is making no sense at all. Why would a regular mafia fake being a DT? How would the DT figure out if the Mayor is GF or Miller? If DT discovers Mayor is legit scum, how is Pardonner fucked? 1.)This isn't a regular mafia. This is a mafia that just happened to be selected to be a bodyguard. If he fakes being any blue, especially a DT and he guesses wrong that's just instant GG for him. Even if he guesses right, now he has to keep guessing all game to prove he really is a DT. LOL? The mafia would have to be crazy to even attempt this. There's a difference when you fake a DT as a regular mafia to a random townie because that townie can be killed if they catch on. You can't kill the mayor so easily. So it's just useless to even try it. 2.) clue check for GF. If it never works out the DT really doesn't care if it's a Miller because the Miller is on the town's side. Anything but Godfather = good. 3.)f the DT bodyguard discovers a scum mayor, he has to speak up. He will then die. When he dies, thats -1 bodyguard which also makes the Pardoner more vulnerable. 1) Even if a DT is BG and checks mayor and guesses correctly, how would this be different from a DT that isn't a BG? 2)the DT sees Miller as mafia and sees GF as w/e GF wants to be. There will be doubt! 3) If Mayor is scum, and town finds out in anyway, pardonner is in trouble, regardless of the cause. 1.) caller you're not making sense. If the DT is a BG...why would he be guessing? 2.) We are talking about REAL Godfather roles. Godfather appears Innocent Townie, not as whatever he wants. 3.) Not at all. If the Mayor is scum and he wants to kill off all his bodyguards to get to the Pardoner he uses up valuable KP in doing so. This is a lot different than a legit DT getting himself added to the kill list because he got fucked over. Remember DTs generally DO NOT want to be out in the open. Being a bodyguard puts him under the eye of someone else.
While I think this discussion is kinda silly, I do want to raise this point. I want the godfather in, period. Uncertainty=good and it fits perfectly.
The question is, should Godfather be auto-townie or can he choose from ACTIVE blue roles (i,e godfather veteran is overpowered)? To me it makes sense, because it represents a risk in exchange for a greater level of trust and influence. I,e it's hard to act as a fake DT or medic but you will have more power and a greater chance to obtain information. On the other hand, you pick townie and you're set but have no easy power. Plus this also makes people not trust the word of blues absolutely, which is also good.
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1.)Caller the DT is a BODYGUARD now. If he talks he's risking two people's lives instead of just his. If the Mayor is legit then the Mayor can trust him easy because it would be almost impossible to guess his role. It's a one way verification.
2.) :/
3.) ok Caller so what else would he do? How else could he have possibly gotten the info? Even if he says "yea some real DT randomly found me as a mouthpiece" - ding - he'd get killed anyway. What is he going to do stay quiet all game and hope another DT does the work? While the other DT is doing the same?
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I'm more for Godfather = Innocent townie. It takes attention off the blues since people keep getting caught up in them. Also with very few blue roles like a normal game a Godfather faking blue becomes even more risky, but hey if you want to go that route I don't mind too much.
You mean appear as a blue right and not have actual powers?
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On March 04 2009 11:53 Ace wrote:
1.)Caller the DT is a BODYGUARD now. If he talks he's risking two people's lives instead of just his. If the Mayor is legit then the Mayor can trust him easy because it would be almost impossible to guess his role. It's a one way verification.
2.) :/
3.) ok Caller so what else would he do? How else could he have possibly gotten the info? Even if he says "yea some real DT randomly found me as a mouthpiece" - ding - he'd get killed anyway. What is he going to do stay quiet all game and hope another DT does the work? While the other DT is doing the same?
clearly we have two different views of the same three questions
i'm feeling stupid right now so I may not be able to think clearly. Let me try again later.
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On March 04 2009 11:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:35 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff. How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said. Still I think it's better. Run with it. Maybe some killed would randomly be left off the day post and left to the townies... I think the game master could kind of on the fly balance depending on what roles were left etc. My problem with this is townies + millers = 25 Mafia = 10 That seems a bit high chance for multiple mafia to become BGs but maybe not.
Any answer to this?
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Oh what about the fact that checks will be focused so intently on the BGs what if mafia don't want to be BGs? It would suck if they got targeted just for being mafia. Probably not a problem though - to check mayor pardoner and 4 BGs would take all 6 possible role checks and prevent more useful vote checks.
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On March 04 2009 12:21 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 04 2009 11:35 Caller wrote:On March 04 2009 11:31 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
A Mayor (elected). Has double lynch power and double votes.
Pardoner: gets two pardons
4 Bodyguards for the above. Chosen at random from green townies , millers, and mafia (including GF)
2 Detectives: Have infinite cluechecks (once per day) and either 3 role checks or one votecheck.
4 Veterans: Have two lives and get a clue upon taking the first hit.
3 Medics: May protect someone once per night. Get a clue upon protecting someone.
2 Vigilantes May kill one per night, starting night 2.
2 Millers: Show up as mafia, don't know it
23 Townies
All town members may stumble upon a random clue each day (chance of 1/3).
10 Mafia. KP = Mafia/2 rounded up.
1 Of them is GF that shows up as townie
I think deaths should be announced so it is not too complicated but clues about the perpetrators will be PMed to random greens. There will still be a day post with clues but the greens will be rewarded with morsels for staying in the game and contributing. Also gives mafia some leeway to plant stuff. How would there be leeway? With townies getting clues about all the dead, mafia has little room to say something that may be contradictory to what townie said. Still I think it's better. Run with it. Maybe some killed would randomly be left off the day post and left to the townies... I think the game master could kind of on the fly balance depending on what roles were left etc. My problem with this is townies + millers = 25 Mafia = 10 That seems a bit high chance for multiple mafia to become BGs but maybe not. Any answer to this?
Eh, assuming 4 BGs, your odds of more than 1 mafia aren't really that big. ~1 in 9 players is a BG. Which means you should have 1 mafia and 3 townies on average. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
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United States2186 Posts
The mods should adjust the BG formulation so that it makes it interesting. I leave that to their own discretion.
You guys are underestimating how hard it is to clear out the rat's nest.
1) Only 2 DTs, rolechecks start after the first lynch. That means it takes 3 days assuming perfect conditions (no overlapping, deaths, etc)
2) DTs have no way of proving someone valid or not. Remember, the Mayor is not going to make the BGs public or else they'd just die. So first the DTs would have to investigate the mayor if they want to know the BGs (but they'd have to expose themselves to a potentially godfather mayor). But they can't 100% trust the results of their check on anyone (could be godfather if innocent or miller if guilty). Lastly, how would they coordinate with each other unless the mayor can someonehow prove his innocence? Then they have to clear all the bodyguards and pardonner? What a nightmare. They have to cut their efforts somewhere, or else the rest of the mafia will be totally ignored. It's a really tough problem that will be very interesting to see how things turn out.
And yes Ace I mean the godfather gets to choose what they appear as to rolechecks but they don't have any real power.
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I have some great clue ideas I hope they aren't too good though.
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On March 04 2009 14:01 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I have some great clue ideas I hope they aren't too good though.
Just got home from work and am skimming this but to respond to this.
Clue's are completely subjective. By changing who hosts the game, the style in which the clues are presented are changed, making it much much harder to analyze, regardless of how hard or easy the clues are.
In my game, a few of the mafia had rather obnoxious and hard clues while others had really easy and obvious, yet almost no-one was pegged on them and the mafia were caught due to bad voting and getting caught on the vote lists.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I completely agree with Ace's suggestions on page one. Now i haven't read all 5 pages (im getting there!). But this elite inner-circle of townies and how people want to contribute but can't and what not is bullshitttt. In Mafia 2 I started out a nobody, not involve in Ace's "inner circle" and barely knowing anything that was going on. But I formed some alliances (with fusionsdf, MTF and Camlito) and we did some work behind the scenes and eventually we became the inner circle.
Just put effort into your analysis/thoughts and things will happen. The mafia can't kill everyone in one go!
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It was very unlucky that last game ended that way, not only because a mafia game takes days or even weeks to prepare and get going, but because this left the general "feeling" that this kind of setup doesnt work or that its useless to give everybody a rol (im calling ace directly here). I was really interested in the way things would work with everyone semi/blue so i strongly ask players to review the game (not posts but the setup) and agree with me that the causes of the "fiasco" were:
1) the broken ability from players to provide a confirmed innocence publicly.
2) the unfortunate distribution of roles. (with most of the mafia being new players)
The setup didnt break because everybody had a rol and id really like not to throw this idea too soon. I think with non extravoting veterans this could have been an "epic" good game.
In my opinion the next game the main concerns and priorities for the game hoster, if he wants to run a smooth game taking the experince from previous games should be to:
A) Provide a balaced setup for both sides (reviewing all the posible combinations between abilities before the game starts, because everydody will always want to abuse any kind of broken ability (namely votechecks, silencer, convertion, confirmed public innocence of anykind, etc).
B) Encourage participation.
While A) can be covered giving the town blue players to battle the inherent debility of a puregreen setup, the stratification of town roles affects B), creating inactivity. Inactivity will always exist at some degree even with everyone having a rol (just look at how many people voted in last game without posting even once). This is a fact, people dont like when theyr role is less important, "epic" or simply not mafia.
The solution to this can take two ways: give everybody something to do with an homogeneous low power in the town, or simply diminish the existance of higher importance roles to a minimum. In these terms i dont like the pardoner/mayor/bg setup as this adds even more stratification and roles to the game (since there will be dt/vet/vigi/pm anyways).
What id like:
1 A game ran by BC. No offence to Chiuiu, Ace, Caller or others but as i stated before this guy is eager to run a game again, i know he doesnt try to push it too much but he is secretly proud that his game was good, balanced and well planned, and he is preparing next game with background support of random SCI characters from who knows wich comedy/story.
2 No office. To me office sucks, office equals warranted townie or a highly possible town debacle if mafia takes it. Warranted townie equals stratification, and the chance of mafia in the office or not adds more randomness to a game about deception.
3 A game with less players. With 40 players is enough to start and end a good game helping activity. I also hate having to check 60 peoples profiles for clues and honestly clues make the game more interesting (this is coming from the worst clue analizer in TL mafia ever)
4 Mandatory vote and modkill. I rather have a townie killed instead of misslynched, and lynching should be the main power of the town. Inactives dont hurt because they dont support the town, they hurt because mafia hide in the inactives.
Keep it simple issues.
5 No proved innocence of anykind from the rol abilities, innocence has to come as a result of the game discussion. (maybe PE ability is the exception here since its used once)
5 Rol reveal after dead. Simple, effective. No pm death or covered rol after dead. More lack of information to a side that already lacks it is nonsense. Informed minority vs uninformed mayority is the idea. As the mayority decreases they have to win information from it, this is fact of mafia.
6 No overpowered roles. Give heterogeneous power to the roles (No Convertion, NRA, traitor, don or things like that). But keep it simple doesnt mean necessarily that we cant play a game with pure semi/blue, last game was simple until the vets extravoted.
4 A game with everydody with something to do at least once like last one. But with more variety of roles. Adding the watcher (guy that is informed if target player is visited and who visited him without telling the outcome), the stalker (guy that follows a player and knows where he goes), the unpowered DT (cluechecker) etc can be added as long as the power is at the same level as the others.
5 A mafia with no special roles/abilities. If this means that the town doesnt have a power to keep the game balanced then no power to the town. (here i meant common power like sanctuary). This is more a subject of balance discussion, but ideally mafia power comes only from the information they posses.
6 If 5 is not possible because most of you think im wrong and we cant keep it simple with everybody doing small tasks, then a high number of plain townies and a few classic blues. In this setup the classic dt/pm/vet/vigi is enough to power the town. Ratio blue/green cant never be more than 1/5, because that means selected circles will arise and bored powerless players will simply give up.
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I'm in agreement if it's something like you suggested malongo. Like I said, not powerful but important. A watcher is important because while he isn't game changing himself, the info he can gather is. The problem now becomes people who are still unsatisfied with their role - literally you can't please everybody.
I'm not interested in running another game anyway. I've got no problem with BC hosting another game.
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On March 04 2009 22:17 Ace wrote:
I'm in agreement if it's something like you suggested malongo. Like I said, not powerful but important. A watcher is important because while he isn't game changing himself, the info he can gather is. The problem now becomes people who are still unsatisfied with their role - literally you can't please everybody.
I'm not interested in running another game anyway. I've got no problem with BC hosting another game.
Oh i wasnt trying anything personal at any level Ace you know you are a respected good player and im not ahahaha but i have no problem about that, i just try to have fun. My call was because you posted that "this is not going to work". While im not completely sure about all having roles im sure that helps activity more than anything else.
And for the unpleased people maybe its time to start requeriments to play if we want to mantain a green majority, we cant kill the game just because people sign up to never show up again. Starting with less players could be an option, maybe 30 people that have proved participation.
The way i see TL-Mafia is: it started with a lot of people interested for the novelty and then evolved into "omg im going to be famous in TL community if im Mafia/DT/Mayor lolol oh too bad im just townie, goodbye". Im just looking at players like fishball, again nothing personal, but he simply trolls the town work. Well at least he is having his fun (in his very own personal way) but there are players like kuja900 ("omg this town sucks") that do nothing when they are just green but that are active and dont hesitate to spam 1a2a3a4a5a6a when they are mafia. I understand, the clue analisis is not fun for them and having less power makes them bored. So the only way i see the game going in some way (or evolving) is to force activity and limit the players, or make the roles equally important and give small tasks to everybody other than just voting/clue work.
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What more can I say?
I'll make it brief: the simpler the better.
Don't overdo it with the special roles. It will only backfire.
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Well Fishball and Ozc types are just random elements to the game lol. Nothing in any ruleset is going to change the way they behave. They are somewhat good for the game depending on what role they end up with (lord help you if Ozc is ever a DT).
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I will add a note in malongo,
Chuiu spends alot more time on making these then I do, my game was a mod of his mafia 3
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On March 05 2009 04:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote:I will add a note in malongo, Chuiu spends alot more time on making these then I do, my game was a mod of his mafia 3
To the point that you didn't know DTs could votecheck the "did not vote" list!
That's what you get for copying haha
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On March 05 2009 04:59 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 04:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote:I will add a note in malongo, Chuiu spends alot more time on making these then I do, my game was a mod of his mafia 3 To the point that you didn't know DTs could votecheck the "did not vote" list! That's what you get for copying haha
Was in his rule set as well, you guys just got craftier!
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On March 05 2009 05:30 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 04:59 Qatol wrote:On March 05 2009 04:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote:I will add a note in malongo, Chuiu spends alot more time on making these then I do, my game was a mod of his mafia 3 To the point that you didn't know DTs could votecheck the "did not vote" list! That's what you get for copying haha Was in his rule set as well, you guys just got craftier!
More like we read the rules and noticed the change
That being said, I did enjoy the balance of your game. Without that change, the game would have been really one-sided.
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i think the main key points for the good game we seem to be wanting are these:
a) simple role setup; as in not something out of Caller's game (though that was still fun).
b) mandatory activity or voting. inactives die (?)
c) Mayor/Pardoner system is optional, although *personally* i would prefer it - i like the dynamic, but it's also hard to balance it. might be better to leave it out.
roles i think are o.k.:
Medic
Vet
DT - in a limited form at least
Vig - i'd say 2 vig maximum in a game, otherwise town kp is just way too high especially with double lynch
Mad hatter - he's fun. suicide bomber ability should be axed imho.
Miller - if we play with mayor/pardoner system i'd say he should be in
Godfather - A nice twist
Saboteur - Also a fair role i think. Only problem is mafia may just roleblock high profile players if they don't bother to analyze posts for blues. That'd be their fault though.
Haven't read all of the thread, so sorry if i repeated anything that's been said 10x already.
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On March 05 2009 04:59 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 04:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote:I will add a note in malongo, Chuiu spends alot more time on making these then I do, my game was a mod of his mafia 3 To the point that you didn't know DTs could votecheck the "did not vote" list! That's what you get for copying haha
I didn't play BC's game, but that sounds like a good check against inactive mafia.
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Havent read the thread but ive had an idea to stop the ammount of blues dying on the first day
Everyone smurfs, idk if this is ok with the mods but if everyone smurfs you dont really know how a particular player should be acting so behavior analysis is ALOT harder and it puts more pressure on clue analysis which is what we want
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"puts more pressure on clue analysis which is what we want"
Because smurfing makes for the best clues to analyze...
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On March 05 2009 16:59 Scaramanga wrote:
Havent read the thread but ive had an idea to stop the ammount of blues dying on the first day
Everyone smurfs, idk if this is ok with the mods but if everyone smurfs you dont really know how a particular player should be acting so behavior analysis is ALOT harder and it puts more pressure on clue analysis which is what we want
Thats a possible idea, but honestly i think its just personal and doesnt interfere with the game. Im 100% convinced ace and ver were smurfing last game and i have a feeling that a certain waffle moderator has been playing with us for long as well. None of these is confirmed just a guess .
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lol no really, I wasn't even in the last game period.
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if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool
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Ok just a few updates on my thoughts:
DTs need infinite rolechecks, especially if there will be only 2 of them. They also need them every day or else they will be useless. Likewise they need their cluechecks too. Vote list aren't needed, but if the game will have low KP it speeds the game up. Maybe 1 per DT but I'm not too fond of vote checks.
Medics and their targets have to be informed that they protected a hit/were hit. Otherwise mafia can fake medic (like they can now) but medics can't prove themselves. So it's "hey I protted you last night" and it's blind trust. No flow of information to the townies in this form which is bad. Townies need to get info in other ways than death or DT.
I don't think vigis are that strong with dbl lynch in the game. 2 vigis, 1 shot each isn't what I'd prefer but it certainly is OK. 2 shots max, but 1 is good also.
Keep vets. Even if you only put 2 in.
Mayor/Pardoner please. Without it the game isn't exciting enough from the get go, and the roles offer something both sides want so it's not going to be an auto-advantage for either side.
Im half sleep I'll probably have more later since I know I forgot something.
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On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool
Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person
btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people
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On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people
I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role?
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On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role?
I love ignorance.
Reminds me of the GLB thread.
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On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread.
Well that's what question marks are for. Maybe you could enlighten me?
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On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread.
Can you just write like a human being for once?
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2009 01:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread. Well that's what question marks are for. Maybe you could enlighten me?
Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role. He is somewhat active, but doesn't help pull off any plans. He also deliberately puts himself on voting lists that he thinks will be checked because it causes controversy around him. Anything you want to add fishball?
EDIT:
Apparently this picture only really applied for 1 game and was due to some misunderstandings. Ignore!
+ Show Spoiler +On March 05 2009 20:19 Ace wrote:
Ok just a few updates on my thoughts:
DTs need infinite rolechecks, especially if there will be only 2 of them. They also need them every day or else they will be useless. Likewise they need their cluechecks too. Vote list aren't needed, but if the game will have low KP it speeds the game up. Maybe 1 per DT but I'm not too fond of vote checks.
Medics and their targets have to be informed that they protected a hit/were hit. Otherwise mafia can fake medic (like they can now) but medics can't prove themselves. So it's "hey I protted you last night" and it's blind trust. No flow of information to the townies in this form which is bad. Townies need to get info in other ways than death or DT.
I don't think vigis are that strong with dbl lynch in the game. 2 vigis, 1 shot each isn't what I'd prefer but it certainly is OK. 2 shots max, but 1 is good also.
Keep vets. Even if you only put 2 in.
Mayor/Pardoner please. Without it the game isn't exciting enough from the get go, and the roles offer something both sides want so it's not going to be an auto-advantage for either side.
Im half sleep I'll probably have more later since I know I forgot something.
While I'm also not a very big fan of votechecks, I liked the idea of having just 1 because I think it adds an interesting dynamic to voting. Specifically, it prevents the mafia from auto-voting for whatever bandwagon is currently happening because they feel the need to spread out their votes a little.
Your medic idea works but only if people haven't already been roleclaiming. Also, this strategy will likely wind up revealing both the medic and the mafioso. Interesting idea though. However, with an idea like that, medics can't really prove themselves anyway.
I don't like vets because nobody seems to know how to play them right. Many treat getting the role veteran like they treat getting townie. They simply go inactive. I personally prefer the old hatter with 1 bomb to veteran because I think it creates more strategy, but I just don't think we are at the skill level yet collectively to make good use of the veteran role.
Finally, Happy Birthday Ace!
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On March 06 2009 03:16 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2009 01:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread. Well that's what question marks are for. Maybe you could enlighten me? Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role. He is somewhat active, but doesn't help pull off any plans. He also deliberately puts himself on voting lists that he thinks will be checked because it causes controversy around him. Anything you want to add fishball?
I have joined every single Mafia game except for one since Chuiu made the first one. (Also including the failed Starcraft Mafia, made by somebody I don't remember who, but TL search should help)
The only game I did not join was Caller's game, hosting right after BC's.
First game - I was townie and I died early.
Second game - I was townie again, then became Ace's Bodyguard, but was also killed off early.
Third game - Townie, but Ace was Mafia and he killed me during the first Night cycle, dying early once again.
Fourth game with Ace hosting - I was Mafia, I played my role well, but with people "infiltrating" IRC channels and worst yet, another Mafia member giving up the entire list of his family to the town, with the sole reason "I was bored", ruined the game.
Fifth game, BC host - I was a Veteran. At this point, I think if you've been paying attention, you would have caught my posts regarding this game in recent threads already. In every single game, inactiveness of certain players have always played a critical role. This game was worse.
Small details aside, this game mainly consisted two things: List checks and Inactivness. Inactive was what killed the town, and List checks was the only weapon the town had. Clue analysis did not work very well and was basically non existent. Ace was basically silenced for most of the game, and the town was doing crappy. After Spike, a townie, was lynched, I kept my eye closely on Mynock, who was suspicious to me. After I was proved townie, Ace did manage to send me a PM regarding a plan, before he was silenced again. Ace also added a "pass phrase" in order to communicate with people within the "inner circle". Mynock then approached me later, regarding another plan, and said there was no time for the pass phrase or something like that. Amberlight claimed vigilante publicly while Mynock have told me he was the vigilante himself. Even though I was then, a proved townie, information didn't match up. What that means, is basically they were keeping information from me, or they were mafia and lying. It turned out to be the former. You see, at this point after five Mafia games, with all the lame shit that have ruined previous games, I'm pretty much fed up by now.
This is also one of the main reason I skipped Caller's game, to take a rest.
Seventh game, Chuiu's most recent game. I was a Veteran. Game ended like in 1 Day/Night cycle. I've made a few posts the entire game. None of them were "trolling". I was busy the entire weekend, regarding issues with RL, have mentioned in the thread and BC also knows about it. I finally took time to catch up with 34 pages on Monday, read through the whole thing only to find out that the game had ended.
If you must mark me as a troll, the only condition you (and others) could have done so is when regarding BC's game. I'm done repeating myself about this game already. Clearly the ones who keep asking is either not reading, or have poor reading comprehension.
I don't talk about any game information while I'm dead like Attackzerg, who doesn't shut up even being warned numerous times; I don't betray my own mafia family members; I don't "hack"; I'm not as poetic as Ocz (love the guy); I don't photoshop PM's, even though there is a strict rule to NOT post role PM's in the first place, and I don't go inactive for most of the game.
I have suggested numerous times to have open discussion regarding TL Mafia roles and rules setup. All I want is to be able to play a full game, without any of the factors listed above. I'm sure most of the people here are hoping for the same thing.
So back to your original quote:
"Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role."
If you still think your statement still stands, I guess I'm a pretty hot troll.
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On March 06 2009 01:50 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread. Can you just write like a human being for once?
If you could define "write like a human being", sure.
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On March 06 2009 05:39 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2009 03:16 Qatol wrote:On March 06 2009 01:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread. Well that's what question marks are for. Maybe you could enlighten me? Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role. He is somewhat active, but doesn't help pull off any plans. He also deliberately puts himself on voting lists that he thinks will be checked because it causes controversy around him. Anything you want to add fishball? I have joined every single Mafia game except for one since Chuiu made the first one. (Also including the failed Starcraft Mafia, made by somebody I don't remember who, but TL search should help) The only game I did not join was Caller's game, hosting right after BC's. First game - I was townie and I died early. Second game - I was townie again, then became Ace's Bodyguard, but was also killed off early. Third game - Townie, but Ace was Mafia and he killed me during the first Night cycle, dying early once again. Fourth game with Ace hosting - I was Mafia, I played my role well, but with people "infiltrating" IRC channels and worst yet, another Mafia member giving up the entire list of his family to the town, with the sole reason "I was bored", ruined the game. Fifth game, BC host - I was a Veteran. At this point, I think if you've been paying attention, you would have caught my posts regarding this game in recent threads already. In every single game, inactiveness of certain players have always played a critical role. This game was worse. Small details aside, this game mainly consisted two things: List checks and Inactivness. Inactive was what killed the town, and List checks was the only weapon the town had. Clue analysis did not work very well and was basically non existent. Ace was basically silenced for most of the game, and the town was doing crappy. After Spike, a townie, was lynched, I kept my eye closely on Mynock, who was suspicious to me. After I was proved townie, Ace did manage to send me a PM regarding a plan, before he was silenced again. Ace also added a "pass phrase" in order to communicate with people within the "inner circle". Mynock then approached me later, regarding another plan, and said there was no time for the pass phrase or something like that. Amberlight claimed vigilante publicly while Mynock have told me he was the vigilante himself. Even though I was then, a proved townie, information didn't match up. What that means, is basically they were keeping information from me, or they were mafia and lying. It turned out to be the former. You see, at this point after five Mafia games, with all the lame shit that have ruined previous games, I'm pretty much fed up by now. This is also one of the main reason I skipped Caller's game, to take a rest. Seventh game, Chuiu's most recent game. I was a Veteran. Game ended like in 1 Day/Night cycle. I've made a few posts the entire game. None of them were "trolling". I was busy the entire weekend, regarding issues with RL, have mentioned in the thread and BC also knows about it. I finally took time to catch up with 34 pages on Monday, read through the whole thing only to find out that the game had ended. If you must mark me as a troll, the only condition you (and others) could have done so is when regarding BC's game. I'm done repeating myself about this game already. Clearly no one is reading. I don't talk about any game information while I'm dead like Attackzerg, who doesn't shut up even being warned numerous times; I don't betray my own mafia family members; I don't "hack"; I'm not as poetic as Ocz; I don't photoshop PM's, even though there is a strict rule to NOT post role PM's in the first place, and I don't go inactive for most of the game. I have suggested numerous times to have open discussion regarding TL Mafia roles and rules setup. All I want is to be able to play a full game, without any of the factors listed above. I'm sure most of the people here are hoping for the same thing. So back to your original quote: "Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role."If you still think your statement still stands, I guess I'm a pretty hot troll.
Apparently I posted too hastily. I marked you as a troll because of BC's game. I never really noticed you doing much in any of the other games and "I have no alignment. I am neither mafia nor town" seems to stick out in my mind for some reason. About the pass phrase. There was a bad information error there. Ace sent the phrase to you, but I (and thus Mynock who was acting as my mouth at the time) never got it. We wanted to include you in the circle, but your PM indicated at least to me that you weren't interested. Hence the information hiding.
Btw, I honestly believed you about being busy and getting behind in chuiu's most recent game.
Regardless, you have my apologies
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On March 06 2009 05:39 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2009 03:16 Qatol wrote:On March 06 2009 01:41 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 23:28 Fishball wrote:On March 05 2009 20:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On March 05 2009 20:42 Scaramanga wrote:On March 05 2009 20:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
if you encourage smurfing pretty soon people are going to sign up with multiple accounts to try to fuck up the game / look cool Mods can see aka's, so they'll be able to know if theres multiple accounts for one person btw why would anyone want to fuck up the game, thats just stupid by those people I dunno I thought thats what fishball or whoever does? Or does he just go afk if he gets a green role? I love ignorance. Reminds me of the GLB thread. Well that's what question marks are for. Maybe you could enlighten me? Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role. He is somewhat active, but doesn't help pull off any plans. He also deliberately puts himself on voting lists that he thinks will be checked because it causes controversy around him. Anything you want to add fishball? I have joined every single Mafia game except for one since Chuiu made the first one. (Also including the failed Starcraft Mafia, made by somebody I don't remember who, but TL search should help) The only game I did not join was Caller's game, hosting right after BC's. First game - I was townie and I died early. Second game - I was townie again, then became Ace's Bodyguard, but was also killed off early. Third game - Townie, but Ace was Mafia and he killed me during the first Night cycle, dying early once again. Fourth game with Ace hosting - I was Mafia, I played my role well, but with people "infiltrating" IRC channels and worst yet, another Mafia member giving up the entire list of his family to the town, with the sole reason "I was bored", ruined the game. Fifth game, BC host - I was a Veteran. At this point, I think if you've been paying attention, you would have caught my posts regarding this game in recent threads already. In every single game, inactiveness of certain players have always played a critical role. This game was worse. Small details aside, this game mainly consisted two things: List checks and Inactivness. Inactive was what killed the town, and List checks was the only weapon the town had. Clue analysis did not work very well and was basically non existent. Ace was basically silenced for most of the game, and the town was doing crappy. After Spike, a townie, was lynched, I kept my eye closely on Mynock, who was suspicious to me. After I was proved townie, Ace did manage to send me a PM regarding a plan, before he was silenced again. Ace also added a "pass phrase" in order to communicate with people within the "inner circle". Mynock then approached me later, regarding another plan, and said there was no time for the pass phrase or something like that. Amberlight claimed vigilante publicly while Mynock have told me he was the vigilante himself. Even though I was then, a proved townie, information didn't match up. What that means, is basically they were keeping information from me, or they were mafia and lying. It turned out to be the former. You see, at this point after five Mafia games, with all the lame shit that have ruined previous games, I'm pretty much fed up by now. This is also one of the main reason I skipped Caller's game, to take a rest. Seventh game, Chuiu's most recent game. I was a Veteran. Game ended like in 1 Day/Night cycle. I've made a few posts the entire game. None of them were "trolling". I was busy the entire weekend, regarding issues with RL, have mentioned in the thread and BC also knows about it. I finally took time to catch up with 34 pages on Monday, read through the whole thing only to find out that the game had ended. If you must mark me as a troll, the only condition you (and others) could have done so is when regarding BC's game. I'm done repeating myself about this game already. Clearly the ones who keep asking is either not reading, or have poor reading comprehension. I don't talk about any game information while I'm dead like Attackzerg, who doesn't shut up even being warned numerous times; I don't betray my own mafia family members; I don't "hack"; I'm not as poetic as Ocz (love the guy); I don't photoshop PM's, even though there is a strict rule to NOT post role PM's in the first place, and I don't go inactive for most of the game. I have suggested numerous times to have open discussion regarding TL Mafia roles and rules setup. All I want is to be able to play a full game, without any of the factors listed above. I'm sure most of the people here are hoping for the same thing. So back to your original quote: "Fishball generally joins the game and then messes around the whole game regardless of his role."If you still think your statement still stands, I guess I'm a pretty hot troll.
thank you sincerely.
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Hmmmm
Hey guys. How about we play a standard game of fucking mafia, sounds good? Like none of this fucking IRC bullshit just play the game it was meant to be played, like Chuiu's first game (only minus the part where we are all retarded and didn't know what we were doing anyways)?
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I was thinking about the detective role. A lot of people feel that clue checking is worthless or pointless because it almost never lands. What if we made the detective role look a little bit like this:
Detective - Has two abilities.
First the ability to, once every other day, ask whether a sentence is a clue. (Meaning the detective would be finding out if what he's reading even points to someone to begin with)
Second, the ability to, once every day, ask whether a clue points to a player. (Meaning he would then be able to start looking for the player the clue points to OR he would be able to ask if a sentence pointed to a person even without knowing if it was really a clue or not)
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Only every other day? Especially if there are few DTs (2/3) its not that useful. Second ability is the one we already have right? I think we should still have rolechecks. Cluechecks could be ok, but as someone (forgot who) said, clues are probably best left in the hands of the town.
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We can keep rolechecks too, I just really feel like detectives should be centered around dealing with clues.
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If we go with this plan, will there be separate DTs for rolechecks + cluechecks or will the DTs have the ability to do both?
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I figure giving DTs all that would make them a lot of responsibility for one player. We could separate them and have one Private Eye with 3 role checks and 2-3 DTs.
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On March 06 2009 08:48 Chuiu wrote:
I was thinking about the detective role. A lot of people feel that clue checking is worthless or pointless because it almost never lands. What if we made the detective role look a little bit like this:
Detective - Has two abilities.
First the ability to, once every other day, ask whether a sentence is a clue. (Meaning the detective would be finding out if what he's reading even points to someone to begin with)
Second, the ability to, once every day, ask whether a clue points to a player. (Meaning he would then be able to start looking for the player the clue points to OR he would be able to ask if a sentence pointed to a person even without knowing if it was really a clue or not)
Im assuming that we are talking about the lesser DT with cluecheck only.
Its still too unpowered for a DT imo. Because everyday the DT will lost the ability asking if the sentence is or not a clue. Better than that i suggest that every dt recieves a confirmed clue everyday (maybe a paragraph from the day post with the clue in bold). That gives the DT an accumulated knowledge that is fair (since its only one clue and he has to make cluechecks). Then every DT recieves a different confirmed clue in bold from the day post. I dont see this too much broken in a setup where the dt cant share the info. This also encourages the dts to stay alive as much as posible because the more time they are alive the more the info they can share with the town. It also increases the mafia interest in snipe them (since all them have different clues from each day). As i see it its quite a normal power (because again even WITH the clues its hard to do cluecheck)
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United States2186 Posts
Detectives can have both cluechecks and rolechecks. Remember, we want to keep the number of blues limited and simple. 2 DTs are fine.
There will be a godfather, so clues will be helpful to find this regardless.
But I still think DTs should have more than 3 rolechecks and usable every night after the first lynch. Rolechecks aren't that strong especially because a) there are 2 and b) they could overlap because there is nobody to organize them (cannot trust sheriff). You cannot force people to just care more about early game (first 3-4 days prolly) clues outside of adding the godfather. How about this:
2 DTs: 5 Rolechecks usable every night after the first lynch. Infinite cluechecks. 1 power per night.
This makes logical sense because catching the godfather won't happen until late in the game generally, when there is a larger amount of clue evidence to use against him. Clues are also a lot more useful later on anyway than in the beginning. Cluechecks in the first few days are almost guaranteed failures. Meanwhile, rolechecks are most useful in the beginning of the game for getting the town started on the right foot. This way the town doesn't feel like there is no information, but clues have a distinct purpose in the mid-lategame.
Nemy, we can't use that setup directly because the level of play has vastly improved. I mean look at game 2, same system, no overpowered elders: Ace broke the game and made it boring for those outside of his secret society. Now we have issues like blue targeting and stuff; things just aren't all that simple unfortunately. That said, we're mostly good on everything now.
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^^^^^ People won't know what you're talking about when you say sheriff -.-
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Sydney2287 Posts
Following Chuiu's train of thought and combining it with Ver's post just then, how about making cluechecks so that the dt can ask either "Is 'x' a clue?" OR "Does clue 'x' point to player 'y'?"
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^ I like that Bockit.
To the uninformed the Sheriff would be an elected role much like the mayor except his only ability would be to imprison a player for one day. The imprisoned player cannot use his role, cannot vote, can speak, and is protected from lynching and being hit by vigils, hatters, mafia, etc. The Sheriff would be able to do this 4 times a game but never on the same player twice.
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That goes along with rolechecks, right?
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Sydney2287 Posts
On March 06 2009 12:51 Incognito wrote:
That goes along with rolechecks, right?
Yeah.
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United States2186 Posts
Here is the rolecheck data taken from the two relevant games. The others aren't relevant because: town was bad in mafia 1, RC list not public in mafia 2 + it's too big, rolechecks not used in mafia 4 because all dt's died in 2 days, and in mafia 6 2 DTs died night 1 and the last DT was manipulated by the inside man.
One of the issues we are having is how to make the DTs and the strength of rolechecks (there will be 2 DTs regardless). Keep in mind that these games there were more than 2 DTs/jacks but they were often busy using the much stronger votecheck. Our DTs will only have rolecheck/cluecheck and there will be no jacks.
Mafia 3:
5 RC:
on Ace (mafia), Fakesteve (medic), Fanatacist (mafia), Fusionsdf (vet), Plexa (mafia)
1 DT lynched day 1, 1 jack died night 3, 1 dt died night 4. Last jack lived all game.
Mafia 5:
4 RC:
on Ver 2x (mafia), amber (hatter), More_Minerals (townie)
2 DTs killed night 1, jack killed night 3. 3rd DT lives all game.
Take this how you will. Too tired to type up something more.
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I didn't realize being a DT was so dangerous...
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Mafia thread and signups will open Wednesday about 9am GMT -6. It will end on Sunday in the evening and the game will start on Monday.
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On March 09 2009 15:21 Chuiu wrote:
Mafia thread and signups will open Wednesday about 9am GMT -6. It will end on Sunday in the evening and the game will start on Monday.
awesome, thanks Chuiu
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Bump so game start time gets some more visibility.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Sounds good
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Oh my... can i sign in already? i really do not want to miss it. ;O
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United States2186 Posts
Signups aren't now they'll start on Weds. But this should stay at the top to make sure people know.
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On March 10 2009 15:37 Ver wrote:
Signups aren't now they'll start on Weds. But this should stay at the top to make sure people know.
im going to bump this once a day, the rest of the threads in sports an games are soooo active :/
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On March 09 2009 15:21 Chuiu wrote:
Mafia thread and signups will open Wednesday about 9am GMT -6. It will end on Sunday in the evening and the game will start on Monday.
Bump. Since when is sports and games this active?
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EPT
