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On August 06 2019 07:34 Eversince wrote:Thanks for hosting Grack!! Sorry guys for giving up at the end. I knew I wasn't going to have time to defend myself and even if I was not lynched I just would of been '?' entire game anyway. So I made executive choice to just take the ML. I wasn't planning on being anywhere as close to as busy as I turned out being so my play this game was basically just trash all around  ..
I have no personal problem with what you did but just FYI that you did not need to defend yourself at all.
You just needed to calm down and read what me and Jock were telling you. Mixing up d2 and d4, waffling on Pandain when he should be 100% scum from your town perspective, waffling on Koshi when he should be 99% town, these are all just straight up mistakes you can only make if you’re checked out and not reading and haven’t properly read almost anything in the game for 72+ hours.
Jock and I both even fed you the right answers multiple times and you still didn’t get it. This is the whole reason I even bothered to begin the interactions with you; I personally had Eywa as a possibility of being scum but after 3-4 posts where you continued to show a complete inability to understand even the most basic of things happening I just threw it all out the window and was fine with the vote being left on you. Had you voted Pandain earlier or actually just stopped and read what I was saying even once I would have started to push harder on killing Pandain first because it was technically optimal. We needed Koshi to be present and this is another big reason why you refusing to place your vote is so incredibly anti-town, because the three townies need to work in unison at all times, transcending time zones and all sorts of IRL shit that interferes with that. If you withhold your vote till the last 2 hours like you did almost every cycle (and I believe your vote was 100% inconsequential for every cycle this game) then the simplest answer for anyone without the prior knowledge that you are town is that you are scum.
Anyway if you still don’t get why we AND Koshi did what we did, I highly recommend reading our filter from this post onward:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/549650-cupids-arrow-mafia?page=104#2073
Both Jock and I were basically begging you to give us the sign that you are town and you just didn’t do what you needed to. I still have no idea why you were so hung up on Pandain when his actions should have auto confirmed him as scum to you, regardless of who he is.
-wherebugsgo
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Eh it's fair. I have really bad memory, and I wasn't rereading basically anything this game. So I had lots of things placed wrong or just mis-remembered in general. I tried to stay away from harder set reads and that was a large part of why. If my brain is out frolicking in a field of lilacs while town implodes itself you should probably just assume I'm town. Because I never implicate myself so willingly as mafia. Or if I do my team just bus's way early than d5 :p I'm not sure why having my vote down really matters. If I say my possibilities then people know where my vote is going to land usually way before deadline anyway. It only really hurts later vote analysis because I can push a new lynch target, be last person to actually put a vote there, which is harder for people to do analysis but assuming you read the thread I think it shouldn't be a problem. I've maintain the same vote pattern for a very long time now though, changing it will probably be a lost cause for me :/..
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From now on, I am lynching all assholerry. It is unpleasant and too effective a cover for scumplay from my perspective
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On August 06 2019 08:41 Eywa- wrote:
Can I post the scum PT?
It was posted. If you mean QT
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Canada11355 Posts
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On August 06 2019 08:20 Eversince wrote:
Eh it's fair. I have really bad memory, and I wasn't rereading basically anything this game. So I had lots of things placed wrong or just mis-remembered in general. I tried to stay away from harder set reads and that was a large part of why. If my brain is out frolicking in a field of lilacs while town implodes itself you should probably just assume I'm town. Because I never implicate myself so willingly as mafia. Or if I do my team just bus's way early than d5 :p I'm not sure why having my vote down really matters. If I say my possibilities then people know where my vote is going to land usually way before deadline anyway. It only really hurts later vote analysis because I can push a new lynch target, be last person to actually put a vote there, which is harder for people to do analysis but assuming you read the thread I think it shouldn't be a problem. I've maintain the same vote pattern for a very long time now though, changing it will probably be a lost cause for me :/..
Try and step out of your own shoes for a second and reread what you just wrote here.
It's rare for people to understand exactly how others play all the time. And what you say in-game is unreliable, even what you say here is unreliable because I personally don't believe when people say "I only do this as one alignment". I do a ton of things as both alignments and I'm personally not sure I can tell you how to read me because I'm not sure myself if I have any tells, and there hasn't been anyone I've played with yet who I feel can reliably read me. I can tell you the things I would be likely to do as certain alignments (like kills) but most of the stuff I do (like talk about masons etc. which people used to scumread me this game) is not alignment indicative.
And you're still not reading I think on the vote stuff 
LYLO: one incorrect town vote risks losing the game.
You: don't vote, don't provide any hard reads at all. Also you: it should be obvious who I am about to vote. Me: facepalm.
Really, read what you just wrote. If you have no idea what's going on then how is anyone supposed to be able to guess who you're about to vote??
If we don't know who you're going to vote till the last minute, we can't coordinate and potentially waste the cycle. Which at LYLO equates to a loss.
If you don't get this....then, I don't really know what to say. Reread the newbie guide?
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On August 06 2019 08:31 Alakaslam wrote:
From now on, I am lynching all assholerry. It is unpleasant and too effective a cover for scumplay from my perspective
 Isn't that a bit of an over generalization?
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I'm auto lynching Pandain any time he is slightly less than 100% helpful from now on. Every time he plays like this he is scum and wins. I was just lucky enough to get carried with him this time.
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On August 06 2019 09:04 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2019 08:20 Eversince wrote:
Eh it's fair. I have really bad memory, and I wasn't rereading basically anything this game. So I had lots of things placed wrong or just mis-remembered in general. I tried to stay away from harder set reads and that was a large part of why. If my brain is out frolicking in a field of lilacs while town implodes itself you should probably just assume I'm town. Because I never implicate myself so willingly as mafia. Or if I do my team just bus's way early than d5 :p I'm not sure why having my vote down really matters. If I say my possibilities then people know where my vote is going to land usually way before deadline anyway. It only really hurts later vote analysis because I can push a new lynch target, be last person to actually put a vote there, which is harder for people to do analysis but assuming you read the thread I think it shouldn't be a problem. I've maintain the same vote pattern for a very long time now though, changing it will probably be a lost cause for me :/.. Try and step out of your own shoes for a second and reread what you just wrote here. It's rare for people to understand exactly how others play all the time. And what you say in-game is unreliable, even what you say here is unreliable because I personally don't believe when people say "I only do this as one alignment". I do a ton of things as both alignments and I'm personally not sure I can tell you how to read me because I'm not sure myself if I have any tells, and there hasn't been anyone I've played with yet who I feel can reliably read me. I can tell you the things I would be likely to do as certain alignments (like kills) but most of the stuff I do (like talk about masons etc. which people used to scumread me this game) is not alignment indicative. And you're still not reading I think on the vote stuff LYLO: one incorrect town vote risks losing the game. You: don't vote, don't provide any hard reads at all. Also you: it should be obvious who I am about to vote. Me: facepalm. Really, read what you just wrote. If you have no idea what's going on then how is anyone supposed to be able to guess who you're about to vote?? If we don't know who you're going to vote till the last minute, we can't coordinate and potentially waste the cycle. Which at LYLO equates to a loss. If you don't get this....then, I don't really know what to say. Reread the newbie guide?
Yeah, I get your point. I change my meta basically every game. I like role-playing a bunch too so I adopt certain persona's in some of my games too. It helps me 1) be loose and care-free when I am town and 2) Prevent people for scum reading me because I establish as NAI as best. Which hurts my town play but equals the general. Really I do it because if I don't have a mafia agenda (Like this game, why does m!ES ever just come in and continually throw herself off a cliff as mafia? No reason for it. I would have been better to just shut up and forget about the game. =t!ES, this should have been super apparent after I refused to vote you on last cycle. I read you as basic lock town. I'd rather lynch myself than lynch a person I think is town. Branch scum read me for this exact thing on Eywa too. I started to change my opinion on Eywa but that was next cycle. )
As far as vote thing goes, if it wasn't painfully obvious I was in between Koshi/ Pandain/ possibly Eywa then I don't know what to say. I railed on Koshi half the game, and I always waffle Pandain. Eywa was a POE more than anything else when I assumed Branch was town on a re-read because I felt like I was tunneling on him when everyone else had moved over to town reading him. So you know where I'd like to put my vote, me putting it on someone here is just extra letters. I'd cast vote if I'm going to be mia for deadline or something but otherwise what's the point? My vote in vote thread isn't going to move people to my prefered lynch. I have to put in the work in thread to convince people of that..
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P.S. Happy birthday
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And to try to make that super clear because I'm trash at explaining why I think some things
t!ES lynch 1
t!NSH (in ES mind) lynch 2
Town lost either way. I know I can't do anything to make myself look better. I'm so short on time I can't even understand half the game, or even keep track of it r.r! So I'm basically always going to die anyway because even if I thought you were mafia I'd never have been able to move votes. It just made my choice real easy because I was very confident you were town this game. So I just vote myself off. Which I kind of regret because I actually meant to be back before deadline because it gave mafia 100% win if votes did move off me if they just stack but I didn't get home until about a hour after deadline and game over already :/.. My fault there..
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Honestly it probably would of been best to just lynch me off early and town probably could of salvage game. But that's here/there.. I just fall into the same boat as you do with 'people can't read me.' because I'm about as dense as a willow-leaf red quebracho, and my memory is the equivalent of scrambled eggs. Add that to time constraints and I was useless to town and just shouldn't of subbed in realistically :/..
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Anywhoooo.. Sorry for getting upset with you . Was fun for the most part as always!
Hopefully I didn't offend you to much in the end game, if so apologies! I gave myself time-outs a few times because I REALLY hate getting super worked up over games anymore ! Enjoy game, or don't play it lol..
(edit: Sorry for spamming this, I just have a habit of not editing post in mafia threads! Even post game I forget I can consolidate post to not put so many in a row x.x!!)
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On August 06 2019 10:23 Eversince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2019 08:20 Eversince wrote:
Eh it's fair. I have really bad memory, and I wasn't rereading basically anything this game. So I had lots of things placed wrong or just mis-remembered in general. I tried to stay away from harder set reads and that was a large part of why. If my brain is out frolicking in a field of lilacs while town implodes itself you should probably just assume I'm town. Because I never implicate myself so willingly as mafia. Or if I do my team just bus's way early than d5 :p I'm not sure why having my vote down really matters. If I say my possibilities then people know where my vote is going to land usually way before deadline anyway. It only really hurts later vote analysis because I can push a new lynch target, be last person to actually put a vote there, which is harder for people to do analysis but assuming you read the thread I think it shouldn't be a problem. I've maintain the same vote pattern for a very long time now though, changing it will probably be a lost cause for me :/.. As far as vote thing goes, if it wasn't painfully obvious I was in between Koshi/ Pandain/ possibly Eywa then I don't know what to say. I railed on Koshi half the game, and I always waffle Pandain. Eywa was a POE more than anything else when I assumed Branch was town on a re-read because I felt like I was tunneling on him when everyone else had moved over to town reading him. So you know where I'd like to put my vote, me putting it on someone here is just extra letters. I'd cast vote if I'm going to be mia for deadline or something but otherwise what's the point? My vote in vote thread isn't going to move people to my prefered lynch. I have to put in the work in thread to convince people of that..
Well you say this now and it doesn't help your case. It was obvious you had no idea what was happening. And considering Koshi scum at that point is one of those obvious red flags, especially when we explained the situation to you multiple times and you just ignored us.
There were four other players. Saying "it should be obvious I was considering 3 players, so it should be obvious where my vote would end up" is straight up...well, nonsense. You're saying we should totally forgive you considering 75% of the game as a potential "best vote" when from your perspective Pandain should have been lock scum, eywa should have been 95% scum and Koshi 5% scum.
And again I implore you to reread what you are saying. You wanted to convince people to move? By holding your vote, and what, letting them vote before you?
Rambling for hours about how you had no idea what was going on? Asking for opinions on Pandain, when realistically only two other players were town and your top townread kept gifting you reasons to consider him lock scum?
You held your vote to within hours of deadline multiple times. You already knew I would not be at deadline because I was on a plane. I was straight up even telling you to move your vote more or less because it was the only reason I could use to consider you town.
Just don't do it ever again. Seriously. I don't care what reasons you've made up in your head for it being a good idea. It's bad. Period.
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On August 06 2019 10:31 Eversince wrote:
And to try to make that super clear because I'm trash at explaining why I think some things
t!ES lynch 1
t!NSH (in ES mind) lynch 2
Town lost either way. I know I can't do anything to make myself look better. I'm so short on time I can't even understand half the game, or even keep track of it r.r! So I'm basically always going to die anyway because even if I thought you were mafia I'd never have been able to move votes. It just made my choice real easy because I was very confident you were town this game. So I just vote myself off. Which I kind of regret because I actually meant to be back before deadline because it gave mafia 100% win if votes did move off me if they just stack but I didn't get home until about a hour after deadline and game over already :/.. My fault there..
You realize if you had just moved your vote to Pandain from the start we would have been able to move our vote to him too, meaning we'd only need Koshi and then we'd probably have won the game, right????
We needed all 3 townies to vote the same. I was asking you to vote Pandain because I promised Jock he had control of the vote. I believed that if you were town and townread us like you're supposed to, you'd have the 2 brain cells required to give us the last missing puzzle piece. I had Pandain lock scum. Koshi was gifting us Eywa scum. However neither of us knew you were town and you were the only one not pulling their weight at LYLO.
Given that you knew you were town, townread us and could put 2 and 2 together that Koshi could never be scum (or literally read any of my or jock's posts, or trust us) all you had to do was vote Pandain.
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btw as an aside I think my opinion on the self vote rule has changed.
I used to think that there were really niche situations where killing yourself would end discussion and allow the game to progress in a way that is beneficial to your faction.
Given that there are people that will now do this at LYLO as town and it becomes a really stupid scumhunting "heuristic" (aka martyrs cannot be scum fallacy) think it should go back to being against the rules.
I think the vast majority of self-voting cases are playing against your own wincon and we should not allow that if playing against your own wincon is against the rules. It's not fair to the other players if you've got one person who'd rather refuse to play and end the game early rather by playing against their own wincondition than actually doing what's expected of them.
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I said I'd move to Pandain. I almost actually just put my vote there but the way you pushed me so hard was seeming super bad to me. So I toss it on you, move again back to myself, and just went to sleep (Double shift).
I can try to change this in the future, but I've done my vote style this way for like 10+ years, so it's probably not going to change easy. Forgive if I do this but I will try to change because this site is honestly best at advancing my play xD!!
Yeah, I already said I was basic useless .. I started to come around on Eywa, sadly I was just really lost at the end days because I'd been regular pulling double 12+ hr shifts with less than 2-3 hours between (Well 6 but it's almost hour drive each way. If I work from home I have to add 30-60 minutes to load/unload truck back/forth). And it's not clean cut there either because I spend time in garage not on computer. Laptop dying really just broke me at the knees because my downtime was useless this game..
My fault on Koshi, But I thought he was mafia up till end game. my trust that you were town was literally the only reason I re-eval Branch because you town read him.. Pandain I'm still not sure about, I'll go back and read your points and try to piece together next week/ week after that. I thought he had a good chance of being scum literally all game. But that's every game for me. Reason I waffle on him and open about saying it! I have trucks starting again in like 5 hours, and we get 1200 livestock moving out next 2 weeks and another 400 in on Friday, and then 700 in next week. Have to move barrels to the Chem company in the morning too.. So I'm just be dead. r.r.
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Why should ES think Pandain is 100% scum? I don’t get it.
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On August 06 2019 11:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
btw as an aside I think my opinion on the self vote rule has changed.
I used to think that there were really niche situations where killing yourself would end discussion and allow the game to progress in a way that is beneficial to your faction.
Given that there are people that will now do this at LYLO as town and it becomes a really stupid scumhunting "heuristic" (aka martyrs cannot be scum fallacy) think it should go back to being against the rules.
I think the vast majority of self-voting cases are playing against your own wincon and we should not allow that if playing against your own wincon is against the rules. It's not fair to the other players if you've got one person who'd rather refuse to play and end the game early rather by playing against their own wincondition than actually doing what's expected of them.
I actually agree with this. Reason I 180 on it when you said it. I went back to it after Grack said it was acceptable in this game mainly I was just so sick of fighting, obvious lost anyway, and I might lose hotspot and we still freaking lose because I'm always '?' fast to get mark mafia when I literally only post basic rule post cycle reqs. Then assuming I miss any deadline ever (very possible because I live the middle of no-where), town just lost because I didn't even have chance to access internet.
(Well Edit: Actually I'm not sure, Banlist is suspend right now anyway. And if you just get tired of playing then that's crap [BAD ES!!] But I'm not sure we should drive off players unless it's a real habit to just rage quit games if we want TL mafia to survive. Scenarios like this game as example, I shouldn't of sub in regardless, and me throwing flag and self-voting was entirely because I just couldn't be asked to try to put in more effort without fore-going sleep entirely. Which is kind of hard when you push 20-50 hr shifts with like a couple hours downtime between. If I couldn't of self vote this game I'd probably just modkill myself after asking for replacement. But I wouldn't of asked for replace honestly because I myself replace and 3'rd into mix is just asking for my slot to die .
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EPT
