[M][N] Medic Mafia - Page 64

On March 11 2018 14:43 n00bKing wrote:
Mafiosa Holyflare

If the Mafiosa is Holyflare, his partner is not DF, but instead either Vivax or FF. Fake-claimed medic as mafiosa, but then rescinded the claim at the start of Day 2 for NO...REASON. The fake claim can continue to have value if he's town. There would be no way for the scum team to know that the claim had been fake, because instead of saying "I'm not a medic" he could just say "I actually targeted prpl after all, I just wanted them to think I wouldn't." There's scum motivation to rescind the fake-claim though, if he's afraid of the mass claim going down, and thinks that switching his claim to VT *before* the mass claim will be less likely to get him lynched than not switching his claim to VT *until* the mass claim.

He was asked why he rescinded the claim at the start of day 2, and I didn't see an answer. I brought it back up again, and still didn't see an answer. Because there is NO reason for Town HF to admit it was a fake claim in that spot. It sabotages his OWN play, if he's town.

Throughout the entire game, he shows a pattern of not answering to simple and direct questions. If he's town, why is he not cooperating with people to try and solve the game, and instead making people like rsoul and myself have to keep repeating the same (unanswered) questions?

He has also exhibited a pattern of playing AGAINST the Town's win condition. The mass claim was pro-Town, and he opposed it, even though his pre-game thoughts would indicate he understood how difficult a place the mass claim puts Scum into, and that the only way Scum could pull out an upset win in this game is with carefully considered fake claims. Now he says he changed his mind, but it's not good that he changed his mind to the anti-Town choice.

He followed that up by playing against the Town's win condition again, when suggesting that the Day 2 lynch be one of the medic claims (me) instead of one of the VT claims, even though the whole point of the mass claim was to put us in a situation where we almost cannot lose, if we just plow our way through the VT claims. Koshi had already outlined this reality, before HF continued to go against it anyway.

He followed that up by playing against the Town's win condition a third time, when suggesting that we take vig shots into the medic pool tonight, instead of into the VT pool, when again, the benefit of the mass claim is that we win by finding the scum in the VT claims.

His excuse for all this anti-town behavior? He'd rather have fun, than play optimally. I'm not even exaggerating, that's actually what he said:


There are no bonus points for making the game harder and then still managing to win anyway. If you were Town, we should have (EVENTUALLY) been able to get you to STOP SERVING THE MAFIA AGENDA. But we haven't.

In case the shot ends up going into the VTs, he wants to make sure it doesn't hit him. Ideally, it wouldn't hit Moosy, either, so that Moosy can be the Day 3 lynch. (If Moosy is killed by medics tonight and flips Green, HF knows he's next in the Noose. He's gotta hope someone else gets killed by the medics, so that Moosy will be lynched Day 3.)

To that end, he says he's already figured out who the Mafiosa is: Koshi.

And also says:

HF has used terms like "honestly" and "to be honest" a lot in this game, which studies have shown are used by people more often while they are lying than when they aren't. "to be fair" is not in the same category, but it's strange word choice, in my opinion, for the point he's making.

It seems like people think HF is a pretty bright guy, but I've identified (and pointed out) the use of multiple logical fallacies, in his posts.

He has also seized on little bits of nothing, and then tried to balloon them up to be much more than they really were.

The "scumslip" where Tubesock believes HF's medic claim is only *barely* alignment-indicative at all. It was not as strong as the arguments that I used (and that AMG seconded) to scumread Tubesock.

HF repeatedly brings up that I'm not making "find the fake medic" my primary focus, like as if that's a big deal. It SHOULDN'T be my primary focus.

Brings up that I was the last medic to claim. And? That's not "barely" alignment-indicative, instead it literally means nothing. Once the mass claim begins, the fake claim is just as likely to be the first one as the last one.

The crown jewel is probably this post:

This would be so outlandishly dangerous for Town that I thought he might just be looking to see reactions to it. Which is why I did not respond to it for the entire rest of the Day 2 phase, except to say that I would like to see more people comment on what they thought of it (so that *I* could watch for reactions too. This is what is behind ALL of the instances where I pose or bump questions, for everyone to answer. Watch how people react to the question, and make them take a position. This is how scumhunting works. You don't catch people in contradictions later, if you can't make them react to anything.)

If Kelsier flips Red, I don't have to worry about any naughty motivations behind HF suggesting this, but after Kelsier flips Town, and we're in the Night Phase, I go back to HF and ask him what he gained from watching reactions to his suggestion. Or if it didn't work, and he gained nothing. Or if he actually thinks that shooting into the medics is what we should do. I tell him I need an honest answer, no more games. He says he'd rather take the shorter path to the end of the game, which tells me that yes, he legitimately wants to use the idea.

And the idea makes good sense...as long as he's scum. If DF and I are suspicious of each other enough to follow the plan, we turn in heals on each other, as suggested. Whichever of FF/Vivax is the other town medic also turns in a heal on one of us. Killing that town medic. Whichever of FF/Vivax is the mafia medic turns in a heal on the OTHER one of us, killing THAT town medic. And the mafia uses their night kill to eliminate one of the VTs.

Poof, THREE town deaths in the same night, including two medics (myself and DF), meaning we lose the ability to take vig shots anymore. The sole remaining medic will be paralyzed, because if he turns in a heal on the following night, he's just as likely to accidentally kill his target (when the mafia medic targets the same player) as save his target. No way to be sure which VT the mafia are killing and which one they are targeting to heal.

Night 2 is 7-2. Day 3 would be 4-2. Which means....lynch wrong, and you may never see Day 4, and the Town cannot No Lynch in this ruleset.

But let's say the Town DOES lynch correctly on Day 4, putting HF in the noose, for causing the deaths of 3 Town players in one night. 4-1. But the NK would make it 3-1, and you AGAIN cannot lynch wrong, when choosing between Vivax and FecalFeast on the final day.

That is what HF's suggestion gets you: The opportunity to go from a massive 7-2 advantage right now, to having to lynch correctly twice in a row to stave off a mafia victory.

On March 11 2018 15:32 n00bKing wrote:

Yeah, I have a question about your reads. Who is the VT scum? The other vanilla claims are: Slam, HF, rsoul and Koshi. Who should get shot tonight? I don't feel like you're interacting with any of them like as if they are scumreads. Does your own PoE tell you that the VT scummer is you?