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Liquidmania Qualifier #2 - Page 9

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 21:21 GMT
#961
BM, can you do me a favor? Quote some of my posts and ask Vivax to answer them.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 21:24 GMT
#962
On January 18 2017 06:01 Onegu wrote:
1) Yeah it talks about other things than my scum read so what. I still scum read rels and I gave my reasons for doing so. Why is it subjective?


Because whether you consider something "forced" or not is subjective, unless you explain why it isn't. There is no explanation.

2) I agreed with vivax and liked how he pointed the rels thing out. I still dont want to lynch him and think you are trying to force 2 town lynches.


The point I'm trying to make, is that Vivax pointed something out that made no sense. And you latched onto it.

3) Why is the timing weird and why does this even matter. I pointed out something I didnt like, who cares what the timing is. You want me to not point something out hapa? Also its not true. I wasnt much behind what I wrote that Vivax pointed out what I was talking about, and shortly after that Slam agreed with me.


Just an observation. The timing is a red flag in my mind, because I've seen it happen from mafia several times before. I don't expect you to have a good argument against it. Just an observation that wouldn't mean much if not for #1 and #2.

The martyr post. You are wrong. It was just posted right before that Rels would lynch me if not HF. It was in response to that post that I would rather be lynched than HF.


It doesn't matter who you posted it in response to. It is still martyr'y.
It's one of those posts that makes you look like you're sticking your neck out, when you really aren't taking any risks at all.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 21:25 GMT
#966
I knew I could count on Bill Murray.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 21:28 GMT
#968
Alright I've spent too long on this game today. I'll finish up my thoughts later tonight.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 21:34 GMT
#971
@ Slam

When you get back, I'd like an explanation for this:

1) You take a pretty hard line that you don't want to lynch either myself or Holyflare. That's all fine. Notable is the bolded, where you say you're going to find your own scum-read.
On January 18 2017 00:58 Alakaslam wrote:
I have caught up and. Prices something earlier, that coupled with recent events makes Rels town.

I will invite-

However, if HF flips green we have to lynch Hapa. I think this is just a terrible idea day1.

But ultimately, I'd rather lose HF than Hapa. HF is not the best player here, he is the other of the greats.

I will not lynch him today. If you all do that fine, I will find who I think is scum.


2) You state that you struggle to read Damdred.
On January 18 2017 01:12 Alakaslam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 01:09 Vivax wrote:
On January 18 2017 01:06 Alakaslam wrote:
The reason is that if Hapa is scum and he is lynching Holyflare, he will dominate. End of story.

But we would have to wait for him to survive night

I just realized this is more wifom then I had thought. Vivax is right.

Dammit I hate this situation so bad


What do you think of Damdred? I think both him and HF have an equal shot at flipping mafia but I have to make compromises if we want to lynch, so right now I don't have a preference for HF, but others do.

TBH I struggle to read Damdred. He was most active during a time when I was inactive, then left the site on my return.

I mostly read by meta tbh.the capability I have for logic other than on-the-spot is pretty time consuming, and I just don't have it.


3) You state that you still want to lynch Damdred anyway.
On January 18 2017 01:13 Alakaslam wrote:
I would far rather lynch Damdred but in majority I have to compromise to get a lynch.


This sequence doesn't read like you're trying to find mafia.


a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:17 GMT
#974
Not trying to tilt you. Trying to get an answer for a very reasonable question. Yes I was worked up post lynch. Not anymore.

IF you think HF and I are mafia, why would you risk a no lynch to try to lynch me, if the alternative is HF (your other mafia read)?

The progression from voting HF because you're convinced he is mafia, to voting me because you're convinced I'm mafia and risking a no lynch makes no sense. Why not just sit on HF? You could have not done anything the last 15 minutes of the cycle and lynched someone you are calling confirmed mafia.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:25 GMT
#976
Why be so standoffish anyway? I'll ask you questions, you ask me questions. We do it calm and reasonably, no tilt, no nothing.

You answer them well, you prove yourself town, giving you more leverage to push your lynch on me and HF. What exactly is there to lose there?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:27 GMT
#977
On January 18 2017 07:24 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 07:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Not trying to tilt you. Trying to get an answer for a very reasonable question. Yes I was worked up post lynch. Not anymore.

IF you think HF and I are mafia, why would you risk a no lynch to try to lynch me, if the alternative is HF (your other mafia read)?

The progression from voting HF because you're convinced he is mafia, to voting me because you're convinced I'm mafia and risking a no lynch makes no sense. Why not just sit on HF? You could have not done anything the last 15 minutes of the cycle and lynched someone you are calling confirmed mafia.


Wrong, the town would still have lynched LS no matter whether my vote was on HF or you. My vote would have gone back to HF if nobody else agreed with me on your Damdred read progression making no sense.

And your personal attacks specifically directed at me were something with an entirely different purpose than me raging at the entire town, for example. You mixed them in between accusations while HF was also doing the same along with stating a lot of false facts, like me voting for LS. So I said, no thanks, peace out until I see if my townreads actually buy your junk.


Ok Damdred read progression.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/517873-liquidmania-qualifier-2?page=47#936

What's wrong with this explanation?

You took my two reads on Damdred, which were made almost 24 hours apart. It should make sense that my read would change over that period of time, no?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:28 GMT
#978
A follow up:

Why not just sit tight on HF? HF would have died had you not moved to try to lynch me with 15 minutes to go.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:33 GMT
#979
Just the entire thought process of...
"I think HF is mafia. But the BEST idea I can think of is to switch to another of my mafia reads with 15 minutes left to go..." does not make a lot of sense, considering the risk of the play. The risk of course, being what happened.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:40 GMT
#982
On January 18 2017 07:33 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 07:28 Hapahauli wrote:
A follow up:

Why not just sit tight on HF? HF would have died had you not moved to try to lynch me with 15 minutes to go.


You are giving me the fault for lynching LS by saying this. How is it justified? What does my vote have to do with the entire town just going ham and lynching a guy it has never seriously put up for scum before?


I'm blaming you for not lynching HF, not for lynching LS. You can call them the same thing if you like.
If the guy you think is mafia is set to be lynched, why switch off of him? I think this is a very reasonable question.

You should have been very happy with how the game was going with HF on the block, and for some reason you decided to change it. I do not understand that reason and I'm trying to figure it out.

LS said to lynch you, HF, and Damdred.
If the victim here didn't notice the most who was pulling the strings behind his lynch, who else? Rest of town just got cold feet and followed you and HF like a fucking herd with no discussion whatsoever involved.


Listening to the reads of a dead townie isn't scumhunting. LS being confirmed town does not mean he's confirmed right.

Look at the game from my perspective.
With 5 minutes to go, the HF wagon falls apart. You are voting me with Damdred and it isn't going anywhere. I see a bunch of quick votes go on LS. You never communicated that you were willing to go switch back to Holyflare. And the backdrop to all of this: a no lynch is a disaster for town.

What else do I do here? My only option for town to avoid a no lynch is to lynch LS. I hated every second of it, but it was my only option.

And post lynch your suspicions on each other just seemed to vanish and both focus on the only guy who didn't fall for your bullshit with personal attacks and wrong statements and shit.


If the lynch guy you were pushing for mafia all of yesterday fell apart in 15 minutes, wouldn't you be angry?
Also, point out exactly what I said in my post-lynch rants that are factually wrong.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:41 GMT
#983
On January 18 2017 07:36 Vivax wrote:
And now I peace out again cause even thinking about it is driving more swearing into my posts.


Oh come on. This is a perfectly calm conversation.

Hell if you think I am mafia, why are you angry?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:49 GMT
#986
On January 18 2017 07:46 Vivax wrote:
The reason is simple. One does not simply go from thinking he has a valid reason to suspect someone, to thinking he is a coinflip cause he stops posting. The other way around works, but not this way.

It's like when people catch me as mafia. If I actually bother I can appear townie early I believe most of the time, but when I fall off even for half a day I'm fucked and maybe I can buy one more day by putting in a binge effort.

But how do you actually manage to believe Damdred is suspicious for something, then make up reasons about thread direction when only HF and me were the other voters besides you in order to unvote him, THEN go on to call him a coinflip cause he stopped posting?

Let's say you're 100 % sure someone is mafia for something HE POSTED, then he says he has some important appointment and disappears. Who in a townie mind would then call it a coinflip?


Because I am capable of stepping back from the thread, re-reading, and reaching new conclusions from the same information. It is silly to make up your mind about what something means right away, and literally never reconsider it.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:50 GMT
#987
And I was very actively trying to reconsider things, look at new angles, etc since I was completely lost in the game at the time.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:54 GMT
#990
But how do you actually manage to believe Damdred is suspicious for something, then make up reasons about thread direction when only HF and me were the other voters besides you in order to unvote him, THEN go on to call him a coinflip cause he stopped posting?


I want to break this down in particular.
But how do you actually manage to believe Damdred is suspicious for something

As I posted a few hours ago, my first read of Damdred's AFK behavior was that he was suspicious for being a non-entity. Also a large motive for my vote here was that I had no better place for it.

then make up reasons about thread direction when only HF and me were the other voters besides you in order to unvote him

Because the "thread sentiment" stuff were a large part of my reasons. The Damdred wagon didn't seem right. That feeling was what encouraged me to re-read and place my vote on Holyflare.

THEN go on to call him a coinflip cause he stopped posting?

The inactivity is new information! It is confirmation and supports the story that he did not have time to play and concurrently felt lost, which led me to believe it was a "coinflip" lynch. I use "coinflip" as a generic term for lurker lynches.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:58 GMT
#991
I don't think you grasp that Damdred's inactivity is actually information.

When Damdred's posting is lackluster on early D1, I read it as scummy. AT this point, I'm not really buying his inactivity excuse, and he's behaving like a "non-entity"
Damdred's continued activity was additional information that made me buy his inactivity excuse. It did not make a lot of sense for "mafia-Damdred" to put up as little of a fight defending himself as he did. Or at the very least, it gave me considerable pause lynching him. Hence "coinflip".

a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 22:59 GMT
#992
I can't explain it any clearer than that.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 23:02 GMT
#993
Like, I found Damdred's play scummy. I didn't like his defense. Built into this read was an assumption that he'd post more in his defense.

Then he just stopped. This paints his defense in a much different picture. When you take away the assumption that he would post more, his defense really lacks self-preservation instinct and is more townie.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 23:07 GMT
#994
There wasn't any new particular insight on Damdred that would show you reconsidered when you said he was a coinflip, otherwise it wouldn't be a coinflip.


Last thing Vivax.

My priority at the end of this day was "LYNCH HOLYFLARE"
not
"I need to make sure my read on Damdred was perfectly documented and publicly consistent."

I definitely could have explained my read on Damdred much better at the time. But I lost track of my thought in the chaos. I don't think that makes me mafia.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
January 17 2017 23:15 GMT
#996
Ok thank you. That makes much much more sense. This is a lot more productive than what we were both doing. I'll be back in a few hours. Let me know if you have any questions for me, and I'll probably have a few more for you.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
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