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On January 16 2017 04:22 Damdred wrote:
It is interesting as a side note that hapa was interested enough to ask me a question about ls reading but just disnt care enough to respond to me answering (feelings hurt).
Really I did like that vivax had a sort of point he wanted to drive home. I disagree with him though.
I liked hapa offensive capabilities but I sort of feel like it was misplaced it felt like.
Fight seems off to me.
There is nothing to discuss about you reading LS. At some point in this game, you'll make a read on him, and I'll judge for myself whether it makes sense or not. I just need to know what expectations I should have.
On January 16 2017 04:32 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 04:22 Damdred wrote:
It is interesting as a side note that hapa was interested enough to ask me a question about ls reading but just disnt care enough to respond to me answering (feelings hurt).
Really I did like that vivax had a sort of point he wanted to drive home. I disagree with him though.
I liked hapa offensive capabilities but I sort of feel like it was misplaced it felt like.
Fight seems off to me. I agree on the last portion. Also I not important to Hapa apparently lol.
You're always welcome to scum-slip so I can tunnel you into the ground for the next 48 hours or so.
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On January 16 2017 05:14 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +You're missing my point.
"X post is scummy" isn't absolute reasoning. I don't care about what the reasoning is. The point is that the statement is direct. The statement is clear. It has a straightforward objective. Town have no reason to hide, and every reason to communicate clearly about their intentions.
There's very little point in announcing "this post may be suspicious". It's indirect. It is unclear. What exactly is the objective of announcing something you aren't sure about? Town has no reason to hide et cetera is just an empty phrase in this context. A truism that everyone will agree with while unrelated to the context, as I hid nothing. Smells a bit like a rhetorical trick where you mix statements nobody can disagree with into the rest of the (debatable) argumentation. My objective was to point out your attitude in the thread, which I did. And argue why it could come from scum, which I did. But my objective is also to not make a decision too early based on too little. And I believe it is too little on its own to outright call you scum for it. So I still don't know what point you are trying to make besides that I should reason in absolutes as town. Is the point now that I tried to hide something?
No additional points. That's fair.
##Unvote
Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 04:28 Hapahauli wrote:
I don't think the meta point would have led to any good conversation. I'd rather you address the part of your post I considered scummy than something I considered more non-alignment indicative. Your meta question just seems out of place to me. I literally have no idea why I should apply meta when I'm just having a conversation with someone scumreading me. So I'm wondering how it made it into your argumentation, which I still don't see explained. Maybe now you think that it's not important. But it's important to know what you were thinking at the time that you wrote that.
At the exact moment I posted the meta thing, my though process was "why is Vivax using a thought process that I only really have as town to call me suspicious?" Which morphed into... "wait... is Vivax even calling me suspicious", and then followed "huh. what is even the point of that post?"
I post what I think and refine my arguments over time. When I posted my followup vote, I thought the last two statements made for a better case than the first, since the first is just a very biased viewpoint of my own meta.
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On January 16 2017 05:16 Damdred wrote:
Here is the thing hapa I already have a pretty solid read on me currently. And that he is probably town at this point moving forward.
How did I get here? Why thank you for asking!
You see it starts with me having bad reasons that are correct. LS makes a meta point about my play and how I react to him, ( ie of I legit push him as scum and he flips town im scum as I read him like 100%). Town point.
States things that are clear as day at points even jokes. Town point (really lacks much of this as scum).
And seems to be able to give ok if not lower thought process on current events. So he's just town.
And that went on longer than I wanted
Okay.
Is this a case you would make on other townies, or is there something meta-specific here about LS? How confident is this read, scale of 1 to 10?
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On January 16 2017 05:25 Vivax wrote:
I could use some feedback on the content of the whole discussion. Especially from HF cause he's been too neutral for my taste so far.
Agree here.
Damdred responded to events well.
Not much to say about LS. Non-alignment indicative.
I really dislike having to post an opinion on Hapa at this point cause it's always hard to seem credible/unbiased when being attacked, but the first oddity I noticed is the way he went about it.
Is it townie that you instantly make a case (with that out of place question about meta, I might add) with questions mixed in it that you could simply have asked beforehand?
My approach to the early-game is to throw around votes early and ask questions later, because why not? I've found I get more thread discussion out of forced votes than questioning. Were this 24 hours in the game, I probably would have asked you a ton of questions before voting.
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"Agree here" = I didn't like HolyFlare's entrance.
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On January 16 2017 05:36 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 05:32 Hapahauli wrote:
"Agree here" = I didn't like HolyFlare's entrance. Do you find it scummy?
Yes.
#1
On January 16 2017 04:07 Holyflare wrote:
I like that vivax drew his conclusion, I like that hapa called it weird because I felt the same.
That is all.
#2
On January 16 2017 04:34 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 04:11 Hapahauli wrote:
Your attempt at diplomacy bores me.
Why do you like that Vivax drew his conclusion if you thought it was weird? I liked the process of reading what you were doing and making a remark on how it affected his thought on you. It was remarkably high level compared to what I'm used to seeing recently.
#2 is not a satisfying explanation of #1. It does not make much sense how HF can consider something "weird", yet "remarkably high level".
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When did you get this calm Vivax? You were much more... angry when I saw you play a year back or so.
On Holyflare, I think your analysis is way too speculative. For example, even marv has demotivated scum-games. The goal right now isn't to have objective analysis. It is to make people talk so you have enough information to objectively analyze.
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HF isn't exactly ignoring you...
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HF, why is that inconsistency mafia motivated? I understand the why Damdreds thought process doesn't make sense. I dont understand why it is suspicious.
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On January 16 2017 08:05 Holyflare wrote:
?????????????????
Because town people generally care about what they think and have thought 2 hours previously.
Because town people don't usually forget the person they thought was weird/scummy.
Because town people don't try and retroactively defend themselves with lies when their answer is I forgot.
Because town don't change their entire story to stop someone scum reading them.
Because town don't then realise they've been caught out lying and try to retroactively undo their lie AGAIN!
Wtf hapa it's not that hard to understand???
Because...
On January 16 2017 07:43 Damdred wrote:
Eh I see where the disconect is, my posting implies that hi had an earlier bad feeling and I don't talk about hapa in that posting.
Ehhhhh, I can see it and understand your point.
It's a mistake on my part, maybe I meant to type hhapa there instead of vivax. I'm not sure what I was thinking or if i wwa just in a hurry.
Unfortunate but I doubt you believe my explanation anyway.
...the bolded makes sense, and is consistent with some other name typos that Damdred has made over the last 2 hours. (See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/517873-liquidmania-qualifier-2?page=6#110)
You switch out "vivax" for "hapa" there, and Damdred's thought process is entirely consistent. I believe the typo, or at the very least, I believe that the typo is equally likely to Damdred fucking up as mafia.
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Where did LightningStrike and Vivax go? What do you guys think about all of this?
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On January 16 2017 09:35 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 08:22 Hapahauli wrote:On January 16 2017 08:05 Holyflare wrote:
?????????????????
Because town people generally care about what they think and have thought 2 hours previously.
Because town people don't usually forget the person they thought was weird/scummy.
Because town people don't try and retroactively defend themselves with lies when their answer is I forgot.
Because town don't change their entire story to stop someone scum reading them.
Because town don't then realise they've been caught out lying and try to retroactively undo their lie AGAIN!
Wtf hapa it's not that hard to understand??? Because... On January 16 2017 07:43 Damdred wrote:
Eh I see where the disconect is, my posting implies that hi had an earlier bad feeling and I don't talk about hapa in that posting.
Ehhhhh, I can see it and understand your point.
It's a mistake on my part, maybe I meant to type hhapa there instead of vivax. I'm not sure what I was thinking or if i wwa just in a hurry.
Unfortunate but I doubt you believe my explanation anyway. ...the bolded makes sense, and is consistent with some other name typos that Damdred has made over the last 2 hours. (See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/517873-liquidmania-qualifier-2?page=6#110)You switch out "vivax" for "hapa" there, and Damdred's thought process is entirely consistent. I believe the typo, or at the very least, I believe that the typo is equally likely to Damdred fucking up as mafia. If you can read it like this after reading the last 5 or so posts on the last page where he specifically responds to my case and acknowledges the points then you must be mafia. That's such a ridiculous defense on a person that doesn't even need defending and if it was truly an error on his part could quite easily vindicate himself later. The typos in this post you've linked are incredibly obvious phone auto corrects, for example, the name ls is extremely close to the letters M and E. I don't think the letters V I V A X are close to H A P A in the slightest and in no way, shape or form would it ever be auto corrected to switch around. Furthermore, to compound on your bull shittery, he mentions both your name and vivax as two separate paragraphs and points in his post. Two separate matters. It's not a typo at all and in fact is quite clearly talking about two people instead of "mistaking" the names. If it was a mistake it would be one paragraph.
I've read your interaction with Damdred probably 5 times over the last two hours. I still don't see what you're getting at. The entire interaction makes perfect sense if Damdred makes a typo and doesn't understand that he made a mistake while answering your question. I've been in his position as town.
Since you dropped Damdred, this is no longer an issue however.
On January 16 2017 09:53 Holyflare wrote:I think hapa can absolutely be mafia. His vivax fight/unvote felt forced especially since in one of his posts his whole vivax criticism is that vivax is posting what's on his mind and it's weak accusations but then says we should be posting everything we can. His "suspicion" on me for what was blatantly troll posts but mimicry of what vivax was saying into nothing further about me (no follow up now I've posted). His drive by comments and non participation into really out of the blue defence based on clear phone auto corrects is really odd when he likes pressure being put on people. His whole push just takes the wind out of my sails and shuts down a discussion avenue. Weird post even if it's what he thinks. + Show Spoiler +but his words are nice and he could just as easily be town but shhhhh that's no fun
The Vivax fight was absolutely forced. I'd 100000x force a fight while I'm around than just banter about pointless things.
Your posts were not "blatantly troll posts" aside from the third.
As for me "shutting down discussion" - I gave you 2 hours with Damdred. I didn't think it was going anywhere, so I chimed in with my actual thoughts on the matter. If I thought your case had promise, I would have pressured Damdred. I'll gladly participate in cases I feel I have to force. But I'm not going to completely fake pressure on someone.
As for asking Vivax and LS to discuss - what's wrong with that?
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On January 16 2017 10:14 Damdred wrote:
...
I think outside that hapa should tell us how he reads vivax now. And how he actually reads the interchange between hf and myself.
...
I read Vivax as town. He provided a very calm and objective breakdown of what was happening while I was questioning him, and was critically thinking of things at a much deeper level than I'd expect "mafia Vivax" to do.
I read the interchange between you and hf as "meh." When HF started going off on you, I read it, understood the contradiction, but had the opposite gut feel about it. I read the interaction a couple of times to understand the feel, and reached the conclusion that Damdred was answering like he didn't realize he made a mistake.
I have no significant reads on either you or HF.
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On January 16 2017 10:37 Holyflare wrote:
I don't have a problem with forcing a fight because that's what I do a lot of the time. Your fight seemed unnecessarily extended and since it was forced because you wanted more discussion about things you were quite dismissive when new points arose (damdred's ls points).
I was dismissive about Damdred's LS points, because I was talking with Vivax at that moment and didn't want to distract myself. I do not multitask well. I also didn't consider it worth talking about Damdred's LS points, because it is essentially a meta-argument that I have to argue when I'm not familiar with LS's meta.
And yes, the Vivax argument was unnecessarily extended. That is intended. I consider it much better to back off later than earlier. May as well try and squeeze out every drop from the interaction.
It's incongruous to want more discussion but not be that interested when it occurs. To add to that you were quite keen to sit back and do nothing with regards to damdred and myself for quite a while only to give no opinion in regards to anything alignment indicative.
There was no opinion because your argument did not sit well with me.
Also, I'm very hesitant at giving out reads unless I think someone is either mafia or has done something suspicious. I have been more forthcoming with early-game town reads in the past, but I think they encourage me to make premature, shitty, and unnecessarily uninformed reads.
Basically you want discussion but are shutting down discussion topics and not weighing in yourself.
According to you, I "shut down" two discussion topics in this game:
1) Damdred's read on LS. I'm not sure how I "shut that down." I asked Damdred 2 questions, and then I stopped asking him questions. Where is the part where I shut it down?
2).Your tunnel on Damdred. I didn't agree with your case, and I'm not going to lie about finding him suspicious. I asked LS and Vivax after the fact to chime in precisely because I wanted to hear more on the topic. Just because a discussion doesn't go your way, doesn't mean it is shut down.
What do we know about what you think of people currently? Absolutely nothing.
Of course, because I don't have any concrete conclusions, Vivax aside.
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On January 16 2017 10:40 Holyflare wrote:
And the ls/vivax thing is strange because you want their thoughts on something:
1) you are quite resolute in calling pointless
2) you haven't given your thoughts on any person so it seems like you're fobbing off that job to them.
How so?
1) Did I call your case "pointless"? Disagreeing with your case does not mean that I think the entire line of discussion is pointless.
2) I thought it was inferred that dropping my vote off Vivax = that I thought Vivax was townie. As for "fobbing off the job" to LS and Vivax, I clearly gave my thoughts on what I thought of your case beforehand. The conclusion was that the case didn't make much sense to me, and was harping on a non-alignment indicative thing. I'm not going to draw a conclusion from your case and call Damdred town, because that doesn't make a lick of sense.
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I'm fine answering all this. May as well be doing something. But I'm very much in this boat right now:
On January 16 2017 10:48 Holyflare wrote:
I'm just going to wait for the other half of the game to participate instead.
There's only so much shit you can give, and only so much conversation you want to start, when 4-5 people have even bothered to check the thread.
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On January 16 2017 07:43 Holyflare wrote:
And hapa you can't just drive by drop a comment and peace out after I've stepped up. Gotta do that hardcore commitment you so badly wanted at the start now.
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I had taken a break to let you guys do your thing, gotten back to the computer, saw the above, and was like "watever, posting"
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This is why you always send out confirmation PMs :/
Good night folks, hopefully we get some more to join tomorrow morning.
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Morning. Good timing.
Not all "bull shit", but certainly exaggerated. I took something that I thought was scummy (but not necessary lynchable) and played it up to get a reaction from Vivax.
The reasons I listed are accurate. But the reason why I reacted in the way I reacted (vote, tunnel, etc) was because it was early game and I wanted to bait a reaction. I would have reacted very differently if that came up... now for example.
"Forced" = "Bullshit"
We are clearly defining the former differently.
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EPT
