EPTReally well hosted. Thx for game.
[M][T] Host's Revenge Mafia - Page 170
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Really well hosted. Thx for game. | ||
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disformation
Germany8352 Posts
I also really liked my role. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
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Calix
3379 Posts
On January 15 2017 02:16 darthfoley wrote: I'm still unsure as to whether my apprentice role did anything lol Not really, lol. We just did it because you were going "emergerd I'm LITERALLY a Vanilla Town guise" as Neighbour xD | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
blue But Alakaslam got to have some fun with it =Þ | ||
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disformation
Germany8352 Posts
I assumed Chez was fake nuking himself D2 so he didnt have to play. ExO_'s ML was like 50% me and 50% ExO_. Or 50% ExO_ and 50% me and all the ppl sheeping me. He had a very stronk D1 and I just came out of a game where he pulled similar shit. Though I really thought he was scum for the post where he did his low activity/excuse thing. I was honestly thinking he would flip red until the very end. Still was kinda like a policy lynch as I absolutely hate him claiming vt over and over again like that. Probably I am a bit of an ass here. I mean at least he didnt nuke himself, though well he kinda did with his posts. Didnt even vote. Which is another thing I really don't like. For some reasons I had a bunch of problems reading Grack and DF. The house of brown thing probably played a huge part in that. That was real mean. The paper planes were very scum favored, if used right. Though town played pretty ass overall, so I won't complain too much. xD Thanks to the house of brown their N1 filters were not usable to ascertain their alignments. It also greatly affected them D2 as they were super confused. So it def. made all three harder to read. And that put a lot of shade onto like the only 3 towns playing the game (besides me). Like the idea is amazing I am not going to dispute that. It just made the game way harder for town imo. I was kinda surprised to not see any 3P claims/roles. Just was like... df was acting real strange D2 all of the sudden, but we also managed to figure him out. note that I wont any of that against you, as running such a game takes a lot of work and balance is fickle. I kinda think you guys overestimated town/underestimated scum. but tbh this town was pretty crap and that stuff is super hard to predict anways, so whatever. still i am feeling like ranting about a bunch of stuff that i observed/think might be a bit borderline. Was pretty surprised when one of you said he thought chez role would fuck scum over at some point. his role is prolly the only reason he didnt get lynched super early and in a game where town has 0 trust to each other (house of brown) you just give town kp and wathc them kill each other. or themselves. so i am 0 surprised his role was good for scum. but again. this shit is super hard to predict. general observation: i think it is has very low risk to a very high reward for fakeclaiming stuff in themed games. in palmars game iamp was able to get away with convincing town of being anti town 3P. in dota 2 Hoshi nearly rode out the game off having made up a pro town ability. This game btdt was able to convince town of being a 2 shot cop. though tbh its more that he bussed tt2 super hard. in dota 2 it was somewhat easier to determine fake claims since the abilities were kinda tied to roles and a rolecop would be able to somewhat determine if someone was lying. a pity he died n1. I don't know if Chez or BTDT role names would have helped, but for like meacha-cow or the plains dragoon it would be impossible to find out what abilities they had from the name. well. dragoons usually have a horse and a carbine, so you could argue for a vig shot. so not sure how good GB's rolecop ability was. you maybe could argue that town might to try figure that out based on balance, there were some posts about too many prot/investigatives around, but this is a bastard game, so how the fuck are we supposed to know what ideas you guys had. maybe all the investigatives are insane? which is I basically ignored those posts on the grounds of not wanting mechanics at all to figure out this game. on that note I should not have trusted the red check on GB. but I would have checked GB, too. So the check made sense and the result kinda did too. Also would have had to fight Grack over not trusting the red, while trusting my blue on LS. didnt want to do that. so that might have been my bad, not sure though. tldr: i think if i am to run a themed in the future I will probably include 1 town fav. role/mechanic that makes fake claims more risky for scum. I dont want to make it stupid/impossible, as good fake claims are good, but I think in the last 3 games it was low risk very high reward. and i was pretty cautious about the btdt claim at first, I knew this could be a super hard buddy attempt, but him throwing a fit and gtfo'ing for 2 days legit felt like super upset town to me and I wanted him around to see what his check would be. together how hard he bussed tt2, I was pretty convinced he was town at the end (D4). But yeah I should have probably pressed him more about it earlier. I was not a very good check. though with his rage at me N1, I kinda felt it might make some sense. Well he kinda outplayed me. =D If he wins this (pretty likely atm) I will probably nominate him for best scum game. I was thinking about the carousel but couldnt figure out how to use it for towns advantage. =D Problem is: I already spend 24/7 overthinking the scum hunt, where should I find time to figure that stuff out too? And tbh I am not too versed in crazy mechanics =D | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On January 15 2017 02:36 disformation wrote: I assumed Chez was fake nuking himself D2 so he didnt have to play. Calix: You're almost right. They used Time Traveler's Messenger role to fake a nuke on Chezinu disfo: ExO_'s ML was like 50% me and 50% ExO_. Or 50% ExO_ and 50% me and all the ppl sheeping me. He had a very stronk D1 and I just came out of a game where he pulled similar shit. Though I really thought he was scum for the post where he did his low activity/excuse thing. I was honestly thinking he would flip red until the very end. Still was kinda like a policy lynch as I absolutely hate him claiming vt over and over again like that. Probably I am a bit of an ass here. I mean at least he didnt nuke himself, though well he kinda did with his posts. Didnt even vote. Which is another thing I really don't like. Calix: He had a quest where he wasn't allowed to talk about PRs/ abilities; claim VT thrice; end the day with no votes on him. That would have given him a vanilla-riser ability (or "vanilla virus" as people were calling it?). Needless to say, he failed the third part hard. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
disfo: For some reasons I had a bunch of problems reading Grack and DF. The house of brown thing probably played a huge part in that. That was real mean. Calix: This flash of inspiration happened here: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/TV4fddk34mkq/p140.133.1Mean? That's not how you spell "genius"  After their HOB discussion, we wanted to lob those three into a chat and then we were like "wait isn't putting three of the most active townies in a chat kinda OP?" and it blossomed from there :DFeel free to complain if you want :p Some players suspected during the game that we actually made them mafia, and then undid it upon realizing that it was terrible balance... nope! fake mafia was the plan all along ;Þ disfo: Thanks to the house of brown their N1 filters were not usable to ascertain their alignments. It also greatly affected them D2 as they were super confused. So it def. made all three harder to read. And that put a lot of shade onto like the only 3 towns playing the game (besides me). Like the idea is amazing I am not going to dispute that. It just made the game way harder for town imo. calix: N1 is a legitimate concern as they all thought they were mafia when they were not. However I disagree on D2 onward as you could read into their reactions. You managed to correctly pick up on TT, for example. Maybe it was harder for you since all three of them were town and thus had similar responses. disfo: ... fair point on D2. Just was like... df was acting real strange D2 all of the sudden, but we also managed to figure him out. cakepie: Um, yeah... about that... disfo: he was on a quest? -.- Calix: I think I know why DF was doing that but you'd have to ask post-game to know for sure. We did troll the HOB a bit more after they realised they weren't a mafia team with this D2 quest but that ended up being a bit more anti-town/ a distraction than we intended it to be (since they didn't really trust each other post-D2 due to some actions they did during N1 and we hadn't accounted for that). I've talked about that in passing in #3360 in response to df, but to elaborate more fully on what happened:
tl;dr: Ring side quest got waaaaaaay out of our control. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
note that I wont any of that against you, as running such a game takes a lot of work and balance is fickle. I kinda think you guys overestimated town/underestimated scum. but tbh this town was pretty crap and that stuff is super hard to predict anways, so whatever. still i am feeling like ranting about a bunch of stuff that i observed/think might be a bit borderline. Was pretty surprised when one of you said he thought chez role would fuck scum over at some point. his role is prolly the only reason he didnt get lynched super early and in a game where town has 0 trust to each other (house of brown) you just give town kp and wathc them kill each other. or themselves. so i am 0 surprised his role was good for scum. but again. this shit is super hard to predict. general observation: i think it is has very low risk to a very high reward for fakeclaiming stuff in themed games. in palmars game iamp was able to get away with convincing town of being anti town 3P. in dota 2 Hoshi nearly rode out the game off having made up a pro town ability. This game btdt was able to convince town of being a 2 shot cop. though tbh its more that he bussed tt2 super hard. in dota 2 it was somewhat easier to determine fake claims since the abilities were kinda tied to roles and a rolecop would be able to somewhat determine if someone was lying. a pity he died n1. I don't know if Chez or BTDT role names would have helped, but for like meacha-cow or the plains dragoon it would be impossible to find out what abilities they had from the name. well. dragoons usually have a horse and a carbine, so you could argue for a vig shot. so not sure how good GB's rolecop ability was. you maybe could argue that town might to try figure that out based on balance, there were some posts about too many prot/investigatives around, but this is a bastard game, so how the fuck are we supposed to know what ideas you guys had. maybe all the investigatives are insane? which is I basically ignored those posts on the grounds of not wanting mechanics at all to figure out this game. on that note I should not have trusted the red check on GB. but I would have checked GB, too. So the check made sense and the result kinda did too. Also would have had to fight Grack over not trusting the red, while trusting my blue on LS. didnt want to do that. so that might have been my bad, not sure though. tldr: i think if i am to run a themed in the future I will probably include 1 town fav. role/mechanic that makes fake claims more risky for scum. I dont want to make it stupid/impossible, as good fake claims are good, but I think in the last 3 games it was low risk very high reward. This one was tackled in depth by me, excerpts follow: I had a couple thoughts too re "balance" We have to keep in mind this format was kind of experimental But I really think it has some nice potential if executed correctly I think selling the troll factor and "bastard" nature of the game was a mistake If ever something like this is done again it should be approached in the mindset of like D&D or tabletop gaming. The hosts are like the game masters and will adjust the gameplay on the fly, to provide interesting stuff, make things more dynamic than just preset roles or preplanned power ups, and just a bit of troll for spice and fun. But the contract should be that we will try to keep balance as much as possible (disclaimer: no promises cuz it's hard to predict what weird unforeseen emergent gameplay might happen) perhaps some limitations on what quackery is allowed/disallowed and what is fair/unfair. NOT what shapelog did going all over the place making a big deal about "anything is possible *trollface* I kinda think you guys overestimated town/underestimated scum. mafia was quite hilarious too. Tragedy of errors on both sides all game longbut tbh this town was pretty crap Was pretty surprised when one of you said he thought chez role would fuck scum over at some point. I knew all along that it would be a mechanics-based deepwolf if town got obsessed with roles and mechanics. But he was also quite limited in what he could do.town has 0 trust to each other (house of brown) (already discussed above) too easy to fakeclaim stuff in themed games. valid observation. worth thinking about how to compensate for this as hosts, and conversely players should also be more cautious about what they believe.... good fake claims are good, but I think in the last 3 games it was low risk very high reward. I don't know if role names would have helped nope. once we got past the SoN1 hump and started flavoring shit properly it was completely useless. We gave scum a useless flavor name cop, lol. how good GB's rolecop ability was. GB wasn't rolecop at all. GB had a vanilla cop power that was essentially useless past N1. GB correctly switched to using nanite milke (combat medic) subsequently.GB's bungled N1 role and action claim caused a big ruckus with LS; it was so painful to watch that we eventually fed LS a clue about it. but this is a bastard game, so how the fuck are we supposed to know what ideas you guys had should not have sold it as bastard game. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
disfo: I was thinking about the carousel but couldnt figure out how to use it for towns advantage. =D Problem is: I already spend 24/7 overthinking the scum hunt, where should I find time to figure that stuff out too? And tbh I am not too versed in crazy mechanics =D cakepie: carousel was contributed by Artanis. It is a way to force scum to shoot into ???. Assuming that there's somewhat decent reads in the game. So not sure how helpful it is in this game. Strategy: Towniest and scummiest players board. Compel scummy players to do so by threaten to lynch those who won't comply. Eject the ??? from carousel. Scum can't shoot into carousel for fear of hitting themselves. Town uses scum NK to flip the ??? a bit like a vig by proxy except scum won't shoot scum. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
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disformation
Germany8352 Posts
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
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cakepie
985 Posts
On January 15 2017 04:21 Grackaroni wrote: I didn't notice the ring at all. Is that what DF was calling me a liar for? You mean this? 180: Grack, you haven't been honest with me. It troubles me to say this, unfortunately. Yup.HoB QT is really cool to read, seriously other players you need to check it out if you haven't already. https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/89iWXVWwWMS97 TT wins some kind of prize for that Disciple act I'm pretty sure. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On January 15 2017 02:36 disformation wrote: The paper planes were very scum favored, if used right. They were a one-shot per day, one-way PM. They were tied to weather: - fair weather = delivered normally - fog = message delayed by 12 hours - drizzle = minor obfuscation of message (ink+raindrops, bad combination) - breeze = RNG redirect 35% +/-1 and 15% +/-2 offset from intended recipient - downpour = message lost Each person gets a different weather each day by RNG; the weather forecast dictates the RNG probabilities for each weather effect on that day. I don't think one-shot PM is that terribly scum favored. Yes, you're thinking scum can use it to send misleading information out of public eye. But town can also use it to coordinate and share non-public info. It just needs evaluated. The weather put a twist on things but for the most part fog and drizzle effects did not really do much damage. Not everyone used it on D2, and only LS used it on D3 and D4. Of course, that D4 paper plane was game changing >-<;; | ||
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Calix
3379 Posts
Speaking of BTDT, I heard someone say that he should be nominated for a 2017 Award. I don't contest this because I definitely think he's improved from his other scum games. I was aware that he had a hard time posting as scum before so I decided to put him into the "leader" role with his Godfather role + his quest. I'm glad I did | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On January 15 2017 04:21 Grackaroni wrote: I didn't notice the ring at all. Is that what DF was calling me a liar for? Yea. I thought at the time that you were intentionally keeping it secret for some reason, so I wanted to make you paranoid and/or tell the truth. I had to get the ring off you without hinting to the existence of the ring or the quest... so I couldn't be direct with you unfortunately  | ||
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disformation
Germany8352 Posts
On January 15 2017 05:18 Calix wrote: I am pretty happy with how the Paper Planes turned out overall. The D4 plane and BTDT's fake investigative claim were notable outcomes from that. Speaking of BTDT, I heard someone say that he should be nominated for a 2017 Award. I don't contest this because I definitely think he's improved from his other scum games. I was aware that he had a hard time posting as scum before so I decided to put him into the "leader" role with his Godfather role + his quest. I'm glad I did Eh not a fan. But i couldnt figure out how to use them at all and scum got me hard with that. so might be biased. =p | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
What I want to say it that due to saying it is a "bastard" game you did yourself short because it was in a way equal to for example Palmar his game last time. That game was even way flashier. | ||
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beentheredonethat
2934 Posts
On January 15 2017 05:18 Calix wrote: Speaking of BTDT, I heard someone say that he should be nominated for a 2017 Award. I don't contest this because I definitely think he's improved from his other scum games. I was aware that he had a hard time posting as scum before so I decided to put him into the "leader" role with his Godfather role + his quest. and i was pretty cautious about the btdt claim at first, I knew this could be a super hard buddy attempt, but him throwing a fit and gtfo'ing for 2 days legit felt like super upset town to me and I wanted him around to see what his check would be. together how hard he bussed tt2, I was pretty convinced he was town at the end (D4). But yeah I should have probably pressed him more about it earlier. I was not a very good check. though with his rage at me N1, I kinda felt it might make some sense. Well he kinda outplayed me. =D If he wins this (pretty likely atm) I will probably nominate him for best scum game. Let me just say some stuff how I approached this game. First of all: I genuinely forgot that I had /confirmed this game. I was not lying when I entered the thread D1, very late. The irony in this kind of hurts since from that point on, my low activity was completely on purpose. However, when disformation said that he found me raging about the paper plane and leaving very convincing - well then that is because I was indeed pissed. I had sent a PM to Shapelog after the mod note with "don't discuss replacements" popped up because I had gone too far and I had asked him to remind me to apologize to disformation post game. Yes, play to win, but I feel like I stepped over the line there. So here's a good point to officially say sorry to disformation for the early N2 stuff which was mainly insulting. Sorry. When disfo said that his paper plane said "yo, btdt is sorry", I was so pissed at the hosts because I felt fucked over. I felt like my awesome scum plan had just turned to ashes because some dumb host wasn't able to take the correct PM and proceed it (yes, that IS what I thought at the time). So I left the game for real, and I only came back and play because Newbie mafia started. I felt like if I would post there but not in Host mafia, people would start to scumread me (also vice versa which is why I will not play 2 games at a time anymore. Like, never again). So I restarted playing in Host mafia. As I saw that my PM to disformation had actually come through AND disfo put up his "last will" post stating that I claimed cop to him, I felt great. From that point on, along with the town cred I had already for bussing TiTr very hard, it was enough to ride stuff to victory. We didn't play at all as one team. I rarely checked the QT, Chez was MIA all night long, and I felt kinda bad for TiTr. Can't speak for him, but I completely ignored my team and played in a way a 3p antitown might play maybe. Basically, I was fine with sacrificing every single team member if only I survived. I'm not sure if I will be able to play that way again as scum and I really hope that one day I'll be in a scum team with people that develop strategies and shit. | ||
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